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Car Forum / Jeep / August 2007detroit locker problem
Hey all, I've got a TJ 2004 dana 25 with 33 inch tires (3 inch lift) with 4.11 gears and a detroit locker (professionally installed by a shop that does this regularly). The locker was installed over 3 years ago/50K miles ago. No wrecks or accidents, so the frame and front end alignment haven't changed. Over the last month, the locker has started "popping" every 20-30 seconds while going down the road. I've checked tire air pressure (didn't make a difference) tire diameter was off due to very uneven wear, and put new BFG t/o's on it last week, with no change in behavior. (also had the alignment done at a shop that specializes in lifted trucks) Seems almost like one side is "loose" and slipping a tooth on the locker "gear". When it was up on the rack at the shop, it looked like the right side was "tight" and difficult to unlock, and the left side was "loose" and easy to unlock, but the diff still locks up. Are there any parts that are replacable in a detroit (this is standard detroit, not a gearless)? Can I pull the locker out and do this without having to re-do the diff gear set up? (If not, the labor+parts is likely to be the same as having a new locker put in) thanks tim > Hey all, > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > gear set up? (If not, the labor+parts is likely to be the same as > having a new locker put in) Firstly, you have a Dana 35, not Dana 25. <that was probably a keystroke error, but I have to cover the ground just in case> You keep saying Detroit Locker, but there are different kinds. If you have the Detroit EZ Locker, then this is a light duty locker that sounds like is about to break. Given your tire choice, I think you have the wrong locker if you in fact have the EZ Locker. Yes, you should be able to pull the locker without altering the gear mesh settings. If you have the EZ Locker, then you are at a cross-road. You have to consider putting in another EZ Locker, or upgrading to the Full Detroit that can handle the loads placed upon it. > Yes, you should be able to pull the locker without altering the gear mesh > settings. If you have the EZ Locker, then you are at a cross-road. You have > to consider putting in another EZ Locker, or upgrading to the Full Detroit > that can handle the loads placed upon it. Yes, its a dana 35 (key error) Its not an EZ locker, it's the Full Detroit style. tim >> Yes, you should be able to pull the locker without altering the gear mesh >> settings. If you have the EZ Locker, then you are at a cross-road. You have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >tim The "problem" with a Detriot type lockers is that if the is any speed variatio between the two wheels going down the road that can clunck and when they get can get worse. These style lockers have absolutely no abilty to power both wheel at even the slighest speed difference. It is either both locked together and skidding in a turn and it unlocking when conditons permit and switching to 1wd and one wheel coasting. You are hearing this happen. Eitheri you have a different rolling radius between them, your truck is dog tracking a bit and you are wondering a bit on the road abd a speed differnce is developing and it is trying to rachet one wheel to free torque on axles. ALso a D35 is not a strong axle not have a very big carrier so with a Detriot in it and big tires it is going to tend to wear out with time and get clunkier in operation. A carrier gets its strength for its diameterand the small carrier ina D35 with a detriot works a lot harder than even a D44 carrier on same wheel torque load. This is one reasom why GM GovLocs have been known to grenade in 10 bolts with big tires and off road use because the carrier is small in diameter compared to a GM 9.5 or 10.5 which have bigger daimeter carriers and lower surface loads on clutch or locking device because on their increased diameter. To put it another way in your D35 the locking device has maybe a 3 inch diameter at most (likely less) because of small carrier and if it is indeed 3 inched were it locks at the mean you have a 1.5 inch radiuse from axle center line and you have tires that have a 16.5 inch radius from center line so 16.5 divided by 1.5 equals 11 which meeans 11 times the force place on one wheel is placed on locker and 22 times that amount for ce applied to both wheels. If you put down a combine suface trative force of say 3000 lbs that means that locker is seeing over 60,000 pound of force which will take a toll with time. A bigger axle with a bigger carrier that allowed even a 1 inch bigger daimeter locker would se switched locker surface loads reduced 33% with same surface traction effort being applied. What this all means is everything else look okay your locker is likely wearing out from the extreme loads being placed on it. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>> Yes, you should be able to pull the locker without altering the gear >>> mesh [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > everything else look okay your locker is likely wearing out from the > extreme loads being placed on it. You should stick to things you know (which would limit your posts, sorry). It is clear that you do not have a Detroit Locker. I happen to agree with you though, the D35 is not up to the task of a Detroit and 35s. Having said that, the axle shafts in a D35 should have been upgraded to what they call a Super35 when the Detroit was installed. >You should stick to things you know (which would limit your posts, sorry). > >It is clear that you do not have a Detroit Locker. I happen to agree with >you though, the D35 is not up to the task of a Detroit and 35s. Having said >that, the axle shafts in a D35 should have been upgraded to what they call a >Super35 when the Detroit was installed. Again you are the one that show how clueless you are. Sure your super 35 (a D35 with upgraded axles) STILL HAS A 7.562 DIAMETER RING GEAR!!! This ring gear size limits the saive and streght of the carrier inside it and it torque capacity. BTW, the "Super" part is replace weak axles but there is still desing torque limitations because of carrier size relative to tire size and that is why they make bigger axle assemblies but there will always be those like you that think whent you upgrade the axles in a D35 that there is not other weak links and that it is almost as good as a 44 and if this was the case then they could save millions of dollars by never even using 44's and just use your Super 35. You need to look at the bigger picture because your tunnel vision tends to limit your grasp on things like this. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>You should stick to things you know (which would limit your posts, sorry). >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 35. You need to look at the bigger picture because your tunnel vision > tends to limit your grasp on things like this. You have no idea. None. I know precisely what the Super35 is, and I also know what the weakness is in the D35. Stick to things you know ... >> Yes, you should be able to pull the locker without altering the gear mesh >> settings. If you have the EZ Locker, then you are at a cross-road. You have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > tim Maybe have someone follow you to make sure you aren't puppy dog walking down the road from a worn out control arm or other bushing. Have you checked the fluid level? Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >> Yes, you should be able to pull the locker without altering the gear mesh >> settings. If you have the EZ Locker, then you are at a cross-road. You have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > tim You may also want to check your tires. This is a bit unrelated, but I have a 9" Ford in my truck with a lock-rite locker. Normally going down the road it never made the ratcheting sound that it makes when going around a corner. Eventually I started hearing one ratchet click every once in a while as I went straight on a paved road. I had a rear tire low on air, and the difference in tire diameters was causing the ratcheting. Aired the tire up, and the ratcheting stopped. Chris > Hey all, > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > tim I have a full Detroit in my AMC20, and an EZ Locker in the D30 on my front axle. I've been driving my CJ with the front hubs locked constantly for years, and I never have any problem from the front. The rear is known to unload on occasion, but the unloading is nowhere near the frequency you report. And, turns do not seem to be a requirement to make the rear end unload. There are lots of factors that lead to an unload event, but I get a single unload (loud bang and torque steer that can cause a change in lane position) then nothing happens again for a long time. I drive mountain highways to my offroading locations, and I drive around town running errands, and I even hit the freeway from time to time. My AMC20 is considerably different than your D35, and I run 32s instead of 33s. In any case, I can't see any way to diagnose your trouble without at least pulling the diff cover off. Do you know if your shop installed the Super35 Kit when they put the locker in? The Super35 axles are supposed to be stronger than standard axles -- the marketing propoganda says they are as good as D44 axles. I do not think that your noticing that one side can ratchet and the other does not is a part of the symptom set. Just to make things clear, I'm not a newby, I've been driving lockers for over 10 years daily to work, I know how they are supposed to handle, and I recognize when there is a change. I put over 120K on a grand cherokee with a LockRite locker in it, with multiple sets of tires, without having this problem It is Detroit, not an EZ locker, not a "gearless" detroit. It was installed by a professional shop with 20+ years experience putting in gears and lockers. I have 33 inch tires, not 35's or 36's. I'm well aware of the limitations of a Dana 35 axle. I have brand new tires, equal pressures, and a 4 wheel alignment as of last week. The locker has about 65K miles on it. My original questions was whether or not there are any replaceable parts it the locker, and if so, who sells them. If parts are a close to the cost of a new detroit ($550 or so) then I will just replace the whole thing. tim > Just to make things clear, I'm not a newby, I've been driving lockers > for over 10 years daily to work, I know how they are supposed to [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > tim I am not aware of any replaceable parts. I am also not aware of any specific things to check for. As a mechanical device, it really is quite simple. There are not many things that can go wrong. >If parts are a close to the cost of a new detroit ($550 or so) then I >will just replace the whole thing. Your money would be better spent with a bigger axle too if you by a new locker. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >I have a full Detroit in my AMC20, and an EZ Locker in the D30 on my front >axle. I've been driving my CJ with the front hubs locked constantly for >years, and I never have any problem from the front. The AMC20 is a much stronger axle than a D35 as it has a 1.3 inch bigger ring gear and a much larger carrier plus it has 8 7/16 inch bolt hold ring gear on vs 8ea 3/8 inch ones on the D35 which are also on a smaller radius relative to axle center line too on D35 the the difference is very apparent. If the AMC 20 has had a one piece axle upgrade I would easily place it above a stock D44 in strength. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>I have a full Detroit in my AMC20, and an EZ Locker in the D30 on my front >>axle. I've been driving my CJ with the front hubs locked constantly for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > difference is very apparent. If the AMC 20 has had a one piece axle > upgrade I would easily place it above a stock D44 in strength. Everybody else places it equal at best. The Ring & Pinion gears on the OP's D35 are not broken, making this a moot point. Actually, it makes all of your posts on the subject moot. You should stick to stuff you know about. >Everybody else places it equal at best. > >The Ring & Pinion gears on the OP's D35 are not broken, making this a moot >point. Actually, it makes all of your posts on the subject moot. > >You should stick to stuff you know about. I think you should. I have been around jeeps and driving them before AMC even bought them and know the AMC 20 well. I am not a" johny come lately flash in the pan know it all" like you claim to be. You are the moot one because you do not think the ring and pinion size has any bearing on carrier design or strength or overall axle strength including axle housing itself which many like you never even remotaly consider. I have seen D35's break ring and pinion with upgraded axle but usually the axles go first. I have seen bent housing too that are not longer true. With stock tires they are about bullet proof in a old light weight Jeep but when you raise them and install bigger tires the rules change which you fail to understand. People like you think that you upgrade axle shafts and you have upgraded the whole rear end. There is a reason they make and use bigger axles and carriers but this logic escapes your limited grasp on this subject. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com Exactly where has Jeff claimed that he is a "johny come lately flash in the pan know it all" ? Dave Milne, Scotland > >Everybody else places it equal at best. > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com >>Everybody else places it equal at best. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > There is a reason they make and use bigger axles and carriers but this > logic escapes your limited grasp on this subject. I've seen all of that too, but none of it seems to be part of the discussion here. That is, the OP hasn't raised any of those issues. Except for you creating troubles where troubles do not exist, the carrier is not a problem here. I'm not sure how arrive at "people like me." I made on pretense that upgrading the axle fixes all problems with a rear end. PS The D35 is nowhere near being bullet proof under any condition. |
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