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Car Forum / Jeep / September 2007CB power
Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so here I am. When wiring power, I understand it's best to go to the source (battery). What I don't know is... 1. Should BOTH the red AND black wire be connected to the battery @ pos and neg terminals respectively? 2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, but where? 2a. Should I ground in the engine compartment or... 2b. Is it best to make the ground wire as short as possible (i.e., shorten the black wire to around a foot or two and ground in the cab)? Thanks. n. Hi Nathan, Many of the rules for a radio phone installation apply to your Citizen Band radio: http://service.gm.com/techlineinfo/radio.html Antenna: http://www.firestik.com/Tech_Docs.htm God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I > can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks. > n.  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I > can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks. > n. Be very cautious when dealing with any and all info and links provided by Bill Hughes. >> Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I >> can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Be very cautious when dealing with any and all info and links provided by >Bill Hughes. Having used Firestik antennas for a number of years, I'd trust anything on their site...even if you provided the link. Wish you guys'd give it a rest. -- Old Crow "Yol Bolson!" '82 FLTC-P "Miss Pearl" '95 YJ Rio Grande BS#133, SENS, TOMKAT, MAMBM SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com This from the biggest spammer of them all! The jealous, really weak jealous, I can't believe how jealous this little draft dodging coward schizophrenic psychopath liar hiding in Vancouver via S0106000ea6ba70e7.vn.shawcable.net 24.86.24.251 intrepidator@shaw.ca who's only way to get attention is to make a fool of its self using foul language, like it did back in elementary school yard. But, too afraid to use it's name and address, and take on responsibility like a grown up. With an obsession with perverts and goats, where it writes via remailers, @news.alt.net, and cross posts to other perverts to no one's surprise. With extreme jealous ranting over my documents, possessions, successes, manliness and fine, Southern California surfing body, beard, and loving Christian family. Committing forgery over many of my posts, proving I'm a responsible American man. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a Mexican Chiwawa with its senseless barking, me too, me too. You're even more senile than I first thought. And the poor thing, you're too girlie to take responsibility for yourself again, by signing your statement like a man. That really thinks the group's members are so stupid not to know it's the same coward, posting over and over again using a schizophrenic psychopath forged up names? You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same paragraphs it fits so well! But, now worth a forwarding to: internet.help@shaw.ca, security@shaw.ca, abuse@shaw.ca, internet.abuse@sjrb.ca, abuse@aioe.org, admin@cox.net for forgery. Who said it also likes baby monkeys sucking their penis, like his buddy posted on an auto picture group at: news:0u7g43dkje4pdkqi07hl66s8kpifo564k1@4ax.com I thought this traitor's attacks were just over personal disagreements, but in reality these attacks stemming from my love of God and America on Independents Week, I realized you are actually attacking my country, and that's what you've been doing all along is declaring your hatred for the United States of America, with each declaration of my signature, but just too cowardly and stupid to be a terrorist. It's America, love it, or leave it, so keep the f*ck out! Or let me know when you cross my American border, so I may arrest you! YOU ARE A TRAITOR and lost all rights to my American border, and someday I'll have you in jail where you belong! Any time, I'll fly and meant with other patriots guarding our borders against vermin like you. Forwarded to: alt.binaries.pictures.autos, alt.binaries.automobile.pictures groups so they may to see what an a**hole you, aka SW really is!!!!! Why don't you call the San Diego Sheriffs Department at 858-974-2020 YOU NEED HELP! The moral majority say you are not only faggots, but cowards You wouldn't know about business as you have never succeeded and anything. Tell me when you are about to cross my American border and I'll fly up and arrange at meeting with the U.S. Border patrol and Minutemen for your arrest, after you give me your name, address, date, and meeting place. I would appreciate the name and address of these trolls, Square Wheel: S0106000ea6ba70e7.vn.shawcable.net 24.86.24.251 intrepidator@shaw.ca and 24bit: 12.205.158.32 AT&T WorldNet Services ATT Mediacom Communications Corp. I will keep your name in confidence, kindly email LWHughes3rd@aol.com or LWHughes@hughes.net Sincerely, Llewellyn W. (Bill) Hughes III And you think the news members won't catch on and be able to see your user names, as fake as you. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Be very cautious when dealing with any and all info and links provided by > Bill Hughes. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > This from the biggest spammer of them all! The jealous, really weak > jealous, I can't believe how jealous this little draft dodging coward [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >> Be very cautious when dealing with any and all info and links provided by >> Bill Hughes. Sep 15 Speed and Chrome Open Show Bellingham, Wash. 85% certain. The rest is up to you, Great Moby with the continually spouting blow-hole. Take it or leave it. Be there or be square. <heh> Don't ask for more, you're not going to get a reply. Now shut thy festering gob, gasbag. And when I feel it necessary, I will continue to warn people to be very cautious when dealing with any and all info and links provided by one Bill Hughes, of dubious sanity and dark motives. :^D This from the biggest spammer of them all! The jealous, really weak jealous, I can't believe how jealous this little draft dodging coward schizophrenic psychopath liar hiding in Vancouver via S0106000ea6ba70e7.vn.shawcable.net 24.86.24.251 intrepidator@shaw.ca who's only way to get attention is to make a fool of its self using foul language, like it did back in elementary school yard. But, too afraid to use it's name and address, and take on responsibility like a grown up. With an obsession with perverts and goats, where it writes via remailers, @news.alt.net, and cross posts to other perverts to no one's surprise. With extreme jealous ranting over my documents, possessions, successes, manliness and fine, Southern California surfing body, beard, and loving Christian family. Committing forgery over many of my posts, proving I'm a responsible American man. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a Mexican Chiwawa with its senseless barking, me too, me too. You're even more senile than I first thought. And the poor thing, you're too girlie to take responsibility for yourself again, by signing your statement like a man. That really thinks the group's members are so stupid not to know it's the same coward, posting over and over again using a schizophrenic psychopath forged up names? You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same paragraphs it fits so well! But, now worth a forwarding to: internet.help@shaw.ca, security@shaw.ca, abuse@shaw.ca, internet.abuse@sjrb.ca, abuse@aioe.org, admin@cox.net for forgery. Who said it also likes baby monkeys sucking their penis, like his buddy posted on an auto picture group at: news:0u7g43dkje4pdkqi07hl66s8kpifo564k1@4ax.com I thought this traitor's attacks were just over personal disagreements, but in reality these attacks stemming from my love of God and America on Independents Week, I realized you are actually attacking my country, and that's what you've been doing all along is declaring your hatred for the United States of America, with each declaration of my signature, but just too cowardly and stupid to be a terrorist. It's America, love it, or leave it, so keep the f*ck out! Or let me know when you cross my American border, so I may arrest you! YOU ARE A TRAITOR and lost all rights to my American border, and someday I'll have you in jail where you belong! Any time, I'll fly and meant with other patriots guarding our borders against vermin like you. Forwarded to: alt.binaries.pictures.autos, alt.binaries.automobile.pictures groups so they may to see what an a**hole you, aka SW really is!!!!! Why don't you call the San Diego Sheriffs Department at 858-974-2020 YOU NEED HELP! The moral majority say you are not only faggots, but cowards You wouldn't know about business as you have never succeeded and anything. Tell me when you are about to cross my American border and I'll fly up and arrange at meeting with the U.S. Border patrol and Minutemen for your arrest, after you give me your name, address, date, and meeting place. I would appreciate the name and address of these trolls, Square Wheel: S0106000ea6ba70e7.vn.shawcable.net 24.86.24.251 intrepidator@shaw.ca and 24bit: 12.205.158.32 AT&T WorldNet Services ATT Mediacom Communications Corp. I will keep your name in confidence, kindly email LWHughes3rd@aol.com or LWHughes@hughes.net Sincerely, Llewellyn W. (Bill) Hughes III And you think the news members won't catch on and be able to see your user names, as fake as you. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Sep 15 Speed and Chrome Open Show Bellingham, Wash. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > :^D SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Be there or be square. <heh> That should read: Be there or be /squared/. This from the biggest spammer of them all! The jealous, really weak jealous, I can't believe how jealous this little draft dodging coward schizophrenic psychopath liar hiding in Vancouver via S0106000ea6ba70e7.vn.shawcable.net 24.86.24.251 intrepidator@shaw.ca who's only way to get attention is to make a fool of its self using foul language, like it did back in elementary school yard. But, too afraid to use it's name and address, and take on responsibility like a grown up. With an obsession with perverts and goats, where it writes via remailers, @news.alt.net, and cross posts to other perverts to no one's surprise. With extreme jealous ranting over my documents, possessions, successes, manliness and fine, Southern California surfing body, beard, and loving Christian family. Committing forgery over many of my posts, proving I'm a responsible American man. You remind me of a little rat dog, like a Mexican Chiwawa with its senseless barking, me too, me too. You're even more senile than I first thought. And the poor thing, you're too girlie to take responsibility for yourself again, by signing your statement like a man. That really thinks the group's members are so stupid not to know it's the same coward, posting over and over again using a schizophrenic psychopath forged up names? You're not worth any more time when a cut and paste this same paragraphs it fits so well! But, now worth a forwarding to: internet.help@shaw.ca, security@shaw.ca, abuse@shaw.ca, internet.abuse@sjrb.ca, abuse@aioe.org, admin@cox.net for forgery. Who said it also likes baby monkeys sucking their penis, like his buddy posted on an auto picture group at: news:0u7g43dkje4pdkqi07hl66s8kpifo564k1@4ax.com I thought this traitor's attacks were just over personal disagreements, but in reality these attacks stemming from my love of God and America on Independents Week, I realized you are actually attacking my country, and that's what you've been doing all along is declaring your hatred for the United States of America, with each declaration of my signature, but just too cowardly and stupid to be a terrorist. It's America, love it, or leave it, so keep the f*ck out! Or let me know when you cross my American border, so I may arrest you! YOU ARE A TRAITOR and lost all rights to my American border, and someday I'll have you in jail where you belong! Any time, I'll fly and meant with other patriots guarding our borders against vermin like you. Forwarded to: alt.binaries.pictures.autos, alt.binaries.automobile.pictures groups so they may to see what an a**hole you, aka SW really is!!!!! Why don't you call the San Diego Sheriffs Department at 858-974-2020 YOU NEED HELP! The moral majority say you are not only faggots, but cowards You wouldn't know about business as you have never succeeded and anything. Tell me when you are about to cross my American border and I'll fly up and arrange at meeting with the U.S. Border patrol and Minutemen for your arrest, after you give me your name, address, date, and meeting place. I would appreciate the name and address of these trolls, Square Wheel: S0106000ea6ba70e7.vn.shawcable.net 24.86.24.251 intrepidator@shaw.ca and 24bit: 12.205.158.32 AT&T WorldNet Services ATT Mediacom Communications Corp. I will keep your name in confidence, kindly email LWHughes3rd@aol.com or LWHughes@hughes.net Sincerely, Llewellyn W. (Bill) Hughes III And you think the news members won't catch on and be able to see your user names, as fake as you. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > That should read: Be there or be /squared/. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com You will get all kinds of 'short cut' answers. Run both directly to the battery. Make sure your pos(+) is fused. tw > Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I > can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks. > n. > You will get all kinds of 'short cut' answers. Run both directly to the > battery. Make sure your pos(+) is fused. > > tw Thanks so much, T-Dub. I haven't been around here for quite some time... It's comforting that nothing has changed. >> You will get all kinds of 'short cut' answers. Run both directly to >> the battery. Make sure your pos(+) is fused. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks so much, T-Dub. I haven't been around here for quite some time... > It's comforting that nothing has changed. Welcome back Nathan. Just use your email filters and you'd be surprised how quiet it is! tw > You will get all kinds of 'short cut' answers. Run both directly to > the battery. Make sure your pos(+) is fused. Yup, and fused as close to the battery as convenient. You can either install a circuit breaker or a new fuse block. I don't much care for the inline fuses as the cheaper ones tend to melt under load. I like these if your going to run the CB for extended periods without the engine running. http://www.prioritystart.com/ps_pro.html >> Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I >> can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> 1. Should BOTH the red AND black wire be connected to the battery @ >> pos and neg terminals respectively? Running from the battery is best. >> 2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, but >> where? Use the frame bolt where the battery - attaches. There is usually enough thread on that to put on another bolt. >> 2a. Should I ground in the engine compartment or... >> >> 2b. Is it best to make the ground wire as short as possible (i.e., >> shorten the black wire to around a foot or two and ground in the >> cab)? Grounding in the cab can cause problems for the other electrical systems and noise on your CB. It's better to go to the battery. Signature-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://revbeergoggles.com HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors Banks Header - and BEER, in the fridge! >>>2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, but >>>where? > > Use the frame bolt where the battery - attaches. There is usually > enough thread on that to put on another bolt. Why bother? Attaching at the NEG(-) battery terminal performs the same function as running more lead to the block where the battery grounds. The battery cable is much more than enough to carry the necessary radio ground and saves the further wire run. Just attach both at the battery terminals. tw >>>>2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, but >>>>where? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > same function as running more lead to the block where the battery > grounds. Because Jeeps have had problems in the past with ground loops causing CB noise. It might be worthwhile to consult with a local CB shop it there's one available. SignatureXS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html >>>>>2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, but >>>>>where? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > CB noise. It might be worthwhile to consult with a local CB shop it > there's one available. If you are attaching at the battery, how do you get a ground loop? tw >>>>>>2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>but where? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > If you are attaching at the battery, how do you get a ground loop? Between the CB and the antenna. >>>>>>>2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>>but where? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Between the CB and the antenna. Then your radio or antenna or both are improperly installed. Run both leads directly to the battery. tw >>>>>>>>2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>>>but where? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Then your radio or antenna or both are improperly installed. Run > both leads directly to the battery. Not normally possible, read Bill Spiliotopoulos' post in this thread. BTW, running both leads directly to the battery is also incorrect, proper installation is to isolate the CB from anything metal, isolate the antenna from anything metal, run the antenna ground to the CB and both power and ground from the CB to the battery. This eliminates ground loops but requires some engineering as most antennas will ground through the mount most CB mounts will ground to the body in a typical installation. In almost all cars and trucks this works fine, in Jeeps (at least the older Wagoneers and Cherokees) it seems to create noise, don't know why? I've never had any problems in any vehicle because I use a portable CB with a magnetic antenna. The antenna grounds only to the CB and the CB is powered by and grounded to the ligher socket. It's worked well so far.... SignatureXS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html > I've never had any problems in any vehicle because I use a portable CB > with a magnetic antenna. The antenna grounds only to the CB and the CB > is powered by and grounded to the ligher socket. It's worked well so > far.... I ran a Radio Shack in my younger days and I have to agree with this. I always used a fused lighter socket plug so I could pull the unit at night. Sold a bunch to customers and never had a problem or complaint. For antennas I used both a center loaded magnet mount and a 108" stainless steel whip. Of course the whip gave better results, but again the magnet mount could be pulled at night. One caution with magnet mounts, make sure they're clean and dust free when you put them on. If the bottom of the magnet mount or vehicle surface is dirty it could mark the finish of the vehicle. SignatureFRH >>>>>>>>>2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>>>>but where? [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > is powered by and grounded to the ligher socket. It's worked well so > far.... I have no idea WHAT you are talking about, and I don't agree with Bill S's post as far has how to mount a two-way radio. How is running both leads directly to the battery "not normally possible"??? It is the ONLY correct way to wire in a two way radio. You guys are posting misinformation. Please read the proper way to install a two-way radio before posting so Nathan can have a trouble free installation. BTW, powering a two-way radio through the cigaretter lighter port is the worst possible installation method available. tw >>>>>>>>>> 2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>>>>> but where? [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > tw For a Ham rig or a commercial two way I agree, but a CB draws a lot less power than those applications and the high end audio equipment that you "hear" out on the street today. A lighter plug power source for those high draw applications would be ridiculous. SignatureFRH >>>>>>>>>>> 2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>>>>>> but where? [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > "hear" out on the street today. A lighter plug power source for those > high draw applications would be ridiculous. Yes, they don't need as high a gauge of wire, but they certainly don't need the interference a cigarette lighter port will introduce. tw >>>>>>>>>>>> 2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>>>>>>> but where? [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > tw That should be " 'heavy' a gauge of wire" tw >>>>>>>>>>>> 2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>>>>>>> but where? [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > tw No problem, high = heavy:-) Most "modern" quality CB's have excellent internal filter circuits. In the "early" days, ie; 70's, engine "noise" was the source of most interference. Resistor plugs and, as I mentioned, decent built in noise filtering make the "additional" amount of interference picked up through use of the lighter plug or auxiliary power plug hard to quantify. Having said all that, it is certainly not wrong to use a direct battery to CB connection as long as it is properly fused with sufficient wire gauge. And one other point in favor of using the lighter plug as a CB power source, if you forget to turn the CB off it won't drain your battery overnight. SignatureFRH >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but where? [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > the lighter plug as a CB power source, if you forget to turn the CB off > it won't drain your battery overnight. I didn't want anyone to confuse the "high" with a higher wire gauge number. While I can see the temptation to cut corners and just plug it in to the lighter socket, you're not _benefiting_ your setup's performance in any way, just being lazy. CBs are low quality transceivers and need all the help they can get. While most CB manufacturers do use simple noise filtration circuitry, it is still best to run directly to the clean power source and the was the OP's question. Why not do it right? Not all cig. sockets turn off with the key, but even using the ones that do, in order to use the radio, you have to turn the key to accessory. It's just as simple to train yourself to turn off the radio at it's own power switch. tw >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but where? [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > tw Ya got me! "just being lazy" "It's just as simple to train yourself to turn off the radio at it's own power switch." LOL! For you and me and perhaps most Jeep drivers, but human nature dictates a lot of dead batteries. I learned my lesson the hard way. Sitting in a Navajo County cruiser with a dead battery. Had to call for a jump on my portable. I got out for lunch and left the "hard wired" radio on. :P SignatureFRH <snip> >> tw >Ya got me! "just being lazy" "It's just as simple to train yourself to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >County cruiser with a dead battery. Had to call for a jump on my >portable. I got out for lunch and left the "hard wired" radio on. :P You must be pushing a lot of power, or your battery was sh.t. I have left my CB on for like 3 days(with the truck parked the whole time) and not had it run the battery down. They draw almost no juice on receive. As a matter of fact most of the newer fuel injected cars draw more than a CB. -- Old Crow "Yol Bolson!" '82 FLTC-P "Miss Pearl" '95 YJ Rio Grande BS#133, SENS, TOMKAT, MAMBM SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > BS#133, SENS, TOMKAT, MAMBM > It wasn't a CB. It was a combo police radio, scanner and control for the light bar. And yes the battery was sh.t :-) We replaced it last week at the county garage. I'd like to replace the entire vehicle. ;-) SignatureFRH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. If not, then the black wire should be attached to ground, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but where? [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > County cruiser with a dead battery. Had to call for a jump on my > portable. I got out for lunch and left the "hard wired" radio on. :P Well, if you know you're cutting corners and you're OK with it, that's fine. The original question was how best to make the lead runs. I think it was DougW who posted the Priority Start gizmos. Might be a good option for you. ;) Having mobile radios as large as a 100w HF radio, I got in the habit of turning them off so they didn't attract attention. tw > I have no idea WHAT you are talking about, and I don't agree with > Bill S's post as far has how to mount a two-way radio. No need for you to agree, he's right with or without your agreement! ;-) > How is running both leads directly to the battery "not normally > possible"??? Because the normal CB mount grounds to the metal of the body through the attachment screws as does tne normal antenna mount. To avoid ground loops it's necessary to isolate the antenna and radio mount from the car body and with some antenna types that's not possible. > You guys are posting misinformation. Please read the proper > way to install a two-way radio before posting so Nathan can have a > trouble free installation. BTW, powering a two-way radio through > the cigaretter lighter port is the worst possible installation > method available. At least you're consistently wrong. >>I have no idea WHAT you are talking about, and I don't agree with >>Bill S's post as far has how to mount a two-way radio. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > At least you're consistently wrong. There's drool on your chin, idiot. tw >> At least you're consistently wrong. > There's drool on your chin, idiot. You'd be wise to learn what you're talking about before posting. So far you've demonstrated complete ignorance of electonics, CB radio, Jeeps and common courtesy. Please do reply and show us your ignorance in other subjects. SignatureXS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html >>>At least you're consistently wrong. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Please do reply and show us your ignorance in other subjects. Oh, please advise me. Here's some advice for you...read what was written before you comment on it. Anyone who says running power and ground leads from the radio directly to the battery is incorrect is a F-ing moron. tw >> You'd be wise to learn what you're talking about before posting. >> >> So far you've demonstrated complete ignorance of electonics, CB >> radio, Jeeps and common courtesy. >> >> Please do reply and show us your ignorance in other subjects. > Oh, please advise me. Here's some advice for you...read what was > written before you comment on it. Anyone who says running power > and ground leads from the radio directly to the battery is > incorrect is a F-ing moron. Nor did I say it was incorrect, sorry about your reading disability. Thanks for posting and showing us an additional area of your ignorance, will you do some more please? You're pretty entertaining.... SignatureXS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html >>>You'd be wise to learn what you're talking about before posting. >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks for posting and showing us an additional area of your ignorance, > will you do some more please? You're pretty entertaining.... Just because I understand you are retarded, I'll post one more time. The only thing I've talked about in this whole thread is that you run the leads directly to the battery. You, on the other hand, cannot comprehend that small detail. Shame, because you really are boring me. tw >> I have no idea WHAT you are talking about, and I don't agree with >> Bill S's post as far has how to mount a two-way radio. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > At least you're consistently wrong. In this day and age of multi GHz computers the 27 MHz that CB's operate that is basically considered DC. An inline RF choke will adequately block 27MHz radiating back through the power lead. Of greater concern is blocking chassis noise from the radio. A fused lead to the battery or the power block are equivalent. Any chassis ground is as effective as a separate ground lead. Metal to metal anywhere on a jeep should be less than an ohm. As far as metal mounting the chassis, that is the safest bet. If the unit needs isolation from the chassis it will be done internally. Grounding at the antenna is determined by the antenna. If it requires then a fat pigtail as short as possible is recommended. Non-grounded antenna are less effective since they do not use the body of the vehicle as a ground plane. In the final analysis, most of this does not matter if you tune the antenna for a low SWR. Signaturejeff (bsee) > Any chassis ground is as effective as a separate ground lead. > Metal to metal anywhere on a jeep should be less than an ohm. And that's EXACTLY why one isolates the antenna and CB in a Jeep to avoid ground loops. Jeeps are notorious for not having good grounds, particularly back in the days when CBs were more common. It was very difficult to get a good noise free signal in Wagoneers and Cherokees leading to the development of isolated mountings to avoid ground loops. Grounding the antenna to the body (as most installations do) is surprisingly unsuccessful when the body grounds are rusted away. SignatureXS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Sorry but you got it wrong... Unless the antenna is one of those "no-ground plane" types The antenna base MUST be grounded. The vehicle body (otherwise known as the ground plane) is part of the antenna. Please show me an example of a "isolated mounting". Where do you buy them? >>Any chassis ground is as effective as a separate ground lead. >>Metal to metal anywhere on a jeep should be less than an ohm. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Grounding the antenna to the body (as most installations do) is > surprisingly unsuccessful when the body grounds are rusted away. This guy has no clue what the difference between a ground plane and an electrical ground is. You're beating your head. "No ground plane" type antennas are the absolute last resort on a vehicle and should never be used on a Jeep with a metal body...Fiberglass tubs, a corvette, or a fiberglass boat. tw > Sorry but you got it wrong... > Unless the antenna is one of those "no-ground plane" types [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> Grounding the antenna to the body (as most installations do) is >> surprisingly unsuccessful when the body grounds are rusted away. > Sorry but you got it wrong... > Unless the antenna is one of those "no-ground plane" types > The antenna base MUST be grounded. The vehicle body > (otherwise known as the ground plane) is part of the antenna. > Please show me an example of a "isolated mounting". > Where do you buy them? Everywhere Frank. The mag mounts are totally isolated 'electrically' but require a 3' circle of metal under them for the best 'reflective' ground plane. The vertical clamp on ones have a nylon insert where the stick meets the metal bracket if you look close. These also need a 'reflective' ground plane. A 'reflective' ground plane is an area for the signal to bounce off of increasing the range of the antenna. This is 'not' an 'electrical' ground. I use a trucker's mirror mount on my 'glass bodied CJ7 designed for no or little 'ground plane' and get excellent reception with an old Cobra 23. I have had 2 way conversations from Toronto Canada to Marthas Vineyard on the US east coast and pick up the Mississippi river truckers all the time. I wheel up on the Canadian Shield south of James Bay and can 'receive only' a gent on British Columbia's Sunshine Coast on the Pacific Ocean regularly from one area. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) No really Mike They are capacitivly coupled to the metal body of the vehicle The negative node of the signal is carried in the vehicle. It can fry the electronics just as easily. In the DC world yes it's isolated But RF = AC. > Everywhere Frank. > > The mag mounts are totally isolated 'electrically' but require a 3' > circle of metal under them for the best 'reflective' ground plane. In the Ericsson systems I was using, if you mixed the two, all hell broke loose. We were transmitting data packets and the retries went through the roof if the coax got frayed and touched metal or the edge of the mag mount touched a roof ridge or a beam. (yes some fools insisted on running the antenna stuck to the 'inside' of the van roof or wall despite me showing them page one of the manual that warned, in one inch high bold letters, of burns if you were within 3' of the antenna when it transmitted. These were 6 Watt units) Mike > No really Mike > They are capacitivly coupled to the metal body of the vehicle [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> The mag mounts are totally isolated 'electrically' but require a 3' >> circle of metal under them for the best 'reflective' ground plane. >> Any chassis ground is as effective as a separate ground lead. >> Metal to metal anywhere on a jeep should be less than an ohm. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Grounding the antenna to the body (as most installations do) is > surprisingly unsuccessful when the body grounds are rusted away. If you use the vehicle chassis as a ground in a new GM vehicle, you will void the warranty for 'all' on board electronics of the vehicle. This includes things like the ABS controller, ignition, etc... You need to isolate transmitters these days. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >>> Any chassis ground is as effective as a separate ground lead. >>> Metal to metal anywhere on a jeep should be less than an ohm. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >You need to isolate transmitters these days. Ain't that hard in a GM truck these days...nothing but plastic to mount to anyway. -- Old Crow "Yol Bolson!" '82 FLTC-P "Miss Pearl" '95 YJ Rio Grande BS#133, SENS, TOMKAT, MAMBM SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com The short answer is that it must be connected directly on the battery. But this is not as easy as it seems. CBs - besides the the Power Supply GND wire, may have alternative paths to the Ground, the Antenna Ground and the Chasis of the unit. The shield of the antenna cable is grounded, and this usually connects to the mount of the antenna. Also if the mounting screws of the CB unit are in contact with the chasis of the unit, these too will make a grounding path, if bolted on the car's chasis. You don't want alternative ground paths, as this may greate RF noise in the car's electrical system, which could damage or create interference to the PCM. A good installation would be to connect the 2 power supply cables (+12V and GND) directry on the battery terminals, with a fuse as close to the battery, and mount the CB unit in a way that there is no connection between it's chasis and the car's chasis. Also the antenna must be mounted on a non-metalic mount, to avoid grounding at the antenna mounting point. Bill Spiliotopoulos, '96 XJ, '06 TJ. > Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I > can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so here [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks. > n. Also the antenna must be mounted on a > non-metalic mount, to avoid grounding at the antenna mounting point. > > Bill Spiliotopoulos, > '96 XJ, > '06 TJ. This is very bad advice unless the antenna is a "no-ground plane" type Not mounting the base of the antenna to ground will give a very bad SWR. The antenna needs the metal base of the vehicle for the "ground plane" What'd I'd do is to mount the radio on the metal of the Jeep connect the gnd wire close to the radio, Run a power wire directly to the battery with a inline fuse right at the battery. Here's a few links http://www.neons.org/neontsb/TSB/08/081698.htm http://www.signalengineering.com/ultimate/mobile_antennas.html http://www.wilsonantenna.com/jeep.htm http://jeephorizons.com/tech/cb_ant_basic.html I agree. I posted this late at night and wasn't clearly thinking. After some more thought, I have to say that the antenna mount must be grounded to the car body, so the RF circuit closes through the antenna cable ground. Otherwise the antenna cable becomes an antenna itself, changing the RF output impedance and increased SWR. I would also ground the CB unit with the GND power supply wire on the battery terminal. I wouldn't ground the CB chassis though, as this would create an alternative RF path bypassing the antenna cable ground and increasing SWR again. An RF filter may be required on both power supply wires, if not already included inside the CB unit, to prevent an RF loop through the power supply wires. Sorry for the confusion. Bill Spiliotopoulos, '96 XJ, '06 TJ. > Also the antenna must be mounted on a >> non-metalic mount, to avoid grounding at the antenna mounting point. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > http://jeephorizons.com/tech/cb_ant_basic.html Here's a good link to read http://www.neons.org/neontsb/TSB/08/081698.htm > Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I > can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks. > n. > Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I > can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks. > n. I am a bit late likely, was out Jeeping and camping for ten days. There are DC booklets out there if you ask at the dealer. GM has had this booklet out for years: http://service.gm.com/techlineinfo/radio.html I did one contract for 9 years installing and servicing transmitter systems in a fleet of 200 delivery vehicles. You 'really' need to stay away from the electrical system of the vehicle and run two fused lines directly to the battery for the transmitter like the GM booklet states. (some GM's have a nice power tap there, Jeeps don't) If you use any of the vehicle's electrics, the vehicle warranty is void for GM's. For a GM system you 'must' use 10 ga. wiring minimum for these power leads in order to not void the vehicle's warranty so I use twisted 10 ga. with the built in silk string cardboard condenser on all of them. (Type SJOW or SOW was recommended to me by Ericsson who made the transmitters I was installing, so I used it and never had RF issues.) Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle loses a ground for whatever reason. it can/will pull one through the transmitter and let the magic smoke out of the transmitter big time. The routing of the wiring needs to be on the opposite side of the vehicle from the vehicle's harness and computer and should only cross it at right angles if you 'have' to cross over other wires. It is better to route the wire out to the front and cross the front top of the rad's brace then come back to the battery rather than run across the firewall where the rest of the wires run if you have to cross from side to side. (GM makes special note of this) If you get the wiring too close to any vehicle systems, strange things happen like the ABS module fails, digital dashes go insane and in a TJ auto, as was reported on this group a while back, the tranny can jump to neutral every time you key up. Hope this helps, Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Thanks for the GM docs, Mike...here's Ford's: http://www.fordemc.com/docs/download/Mobile_Radio_Guide.pdf Ford Motor Company vehicles are designed and tested for safe operation with properly installed and properly used land mobile/amateur radio communication equipment with up to 100 Watt transmitter power. Special design considerations are incorporated into all Ford vehicle electronic systems to provide immunity to radio frequency signals. To maintain compatibility with vehicle electronic systems, mobile two-way radio and telephone equipment must be installed properly by trained personnel, observing these general guidelines: Power connections should be made directly to the battery and fused as close to the battery as possible. Avoid using cigar lighter or “Power Point” receptacles as power sources for radio communication equipment. Antennas for two-way radios should be mounted on the roof or the rear area of the vehicle. Care should be used in mounting antennas with magnet bases, since magnets may affect the accuracy or operation of the compass on vehicles, if so equipped. The antenna cable should be high quality, fully shielded coaxial cable, and kept as short as practical. Avoid routing the antenna cable in parallel with vehicle wiring over long distances. Carefully match the antenna and cable to the radio to achieve a low Standing Wave Ratio (SWR) and to avoid RF currents on the antenna cable shield. tw Here's one from Chrysler http://www.neons.org/neontsb/TSB/08/081698.htm > Thanks for the GM docs, Mike...here's Ford's: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > tw > Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle loses > a ground for whatever reason. it can/will pull one through the > transmitter and let the magic smoke out of the transmitter big time. I would NEVER fuse the electrical ground line because if that fuse happens to go...and fuses do go...your radio circuit WILL find an alternate ground path and you will not likely appreciate it's choice. The likelihood of a body ground strap going bad is far less likely than a simple inline fuse. If you're paranoid about body straps going bad, replace it during your radio installation. tw >> Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle loses >> a ground for whatever reason. it can/will pull one through the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > tw 'I' had to 'go by the book' or be liable for lost vehicle warranties. http://service.gm.com/techlineinfo/radio.html Most vans/vehicles have plastic to mount to these days, a chassis case ground must be made if wanted. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >>> Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle loses >>> a ground for whatever reason. it can/will pull one through the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Yep, I understand why you're doing it, but I don't understand why they're requiring it. Warranty aside, no one has been able to show me why the NEG lead fuse is necessary/warranted...or even safe. tw >>>> Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle loses >>>> a ground for whatever reason. it can/will pull one through the [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > tw The definition of DC is a build up of negative electrons wanting to go to a positive source so technically if a short happens the power has to travel through the CB first, spiking it with power to get to the fuse to blow. When both are fused and something happens, the negative fuse normally blows first for some reason. (from 9 years of observations and repairs) Mike >>>>> Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle >>>>> loses [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Mike Once that NEG fuse blows, where does the energy then travel? That's my concern. It will backtrack and find the nearest pathway. tw >>>>>> Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle >>>>>> loses [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > tw Um, the energy comes 'from' the negative side and goes 'to' the positive.... If it has to go all the way through the transmitter to get to the fuse on the positive side, that means the high spike hits lots of components that really don't like high power before it gets 'to the positive fuse. Mike Nowhere, it's safe, again. We use to see this problem all the time, where GM accessories were cooked when the type of battery cables (four connections) they used in the fifties would disconnect the their smaller leads. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Once that NEG fuse blows, where does the energy then travel? That's my > concern. It will backtrack and find the nearest pathway. > > tw SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>>> Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle >>>>> loses [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Mike I guess it depends on which direction the problem comes from. Sidenote...About 7 years ago, I had a neighbor's tree fall on the power lines, effectively creating a 440v short. This energy came barreling down my power line and entered the back of my big screen HDTV, somehow skipped past the quick blow fuse and fried a main circuit board. I lost a bunch of equipment that day. The fuse eventually went, but not before the damage was done. tw >>>>>> Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle >>>>>> loses [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > tw In my mind it is simple, I just fuse both of the suckers and be done with it. That 2A fuse isn't going to let the starter or headlights draw through the CB, that's for sure... Mike >>>>>>> Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle >>>>>>> loses [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > Mike Yeah, I'll have to rethink that. Thanks for hashing it out. tw >>>>>>>> Fusing the negative line is very important because if the vehicle >>>>>>>> loses [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > >Yeah, I'll have to rethink that. Thanks for hashing it out. The Chrysler TSB dealing with installing radio communication equipment specifically states NOT to fuse the ground lead. Apparently the manufacturers can't agree on this either. >tw > The Chrysler TSB dealing with installing radio communication equipment > specifically states NOT to fuse the ground lead. Apparently the > manufacturers can't agree on this either. That is a serious pain in the butt isn't it? I think of all the body ground straps I have seen go bad on Jeeps so things like the headlights 'could' pull a chassis ground to the CB then to the negative lead to the battery. Even the starter could pull the other way through the body ground strap and back through the transmitters negative, if the big ground goes bad at the block which I have 'also' seen happen on Jeeps more than once. I figure fusing both with the light 2A fuse has it covered... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I > can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 2b. Is it best to make the ground wire as short as possible (i.e., > shorten the black wire to around a foot or two and ground in the cab)? Since you are getting contradictory information, here is what I have gathered on the subject: 1. Power: Go straight to the battery. 2. Ground: The following are grounded on the typical radio: a) power ground b) antenna wire at radio (ground sheath) c) antenna wire at antenna (ground sheath) You want to prevent ground loops as much as possible. Thus the correct answer is that whatever you're attaching your ground to on the antenna end (usually a metal antenna mount bolted to your bumper or fender) should be what you attach the ground to on the CB end. Since the antenna is generally bolted to the body (or has a low-ohm AC path to ground through the magnetic mount attached to the body), that, then, is what you should attach your CB ground to. In short, the best ground is to attach your CB ground to one of the sheet metal screws that you use to attach your CB to the body of the Jeep. If you are not attaching the CB to the body of the Jeep, the ground should instead be attached to the body as close to the CB as possible. The goal is to provide a good ground path between the CB ground and the antenna ground for use as a ground plane without worrying about whether there is enough corrosion on the cable that grounds the body to the battery to affect its impedence and thus cause it to serve as an extension of the antenna (a.k.a. "ground loop"). Note that there are antenna setups which do not require a ground plane. These use a fixed-length cable with a specified impedence and an insulated ungrounded antenna. These generally, however, provide a poorer reception on any metal vehicle that has sufficient steel for a proper ground plane. Short of attaching a radial-element base station antenna to your Jeep (which uses the radial elements as the ground plane, but it'd make your Jeep kinda tall!), you cannot get a good ground plane with a "groundplane-free" mobile setup. My handi-talkie CB with the mini-whip does not get anywhere near as good of reception as my properly grounded Firestick antenna, even if I attach the auxiliary antenna and place it on top of my Jeep so it's as high as the Firestick on the back of my Jeep. And this is despite the fact that the actual guts of this handi-talkie are absolutely identical to the guts of my permanently-mounted CB (both are Cobra designs and utilize the exact same circuit board internally, all that differs is the surrounding packaging, one is an all-in-mike design with a power/antenna box under the dash and the other is a handi-talky with the power and antenna as part of the package). The ground plane of the Jeep thus empirically has proven to be quite a bit more effective at receiving signals than the ground-plane-less approach, and you shouldn't even think about a ground-plane-less approach for your antenna setup. -Elron A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. An 'electrical' ground is a power path. The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing else. If you use an electrical ground for the transmitter's ground plane, you will void the vehicle's warranty for all things electronic according to all the manufacturers I have dealt with while installing and servicing transmitters for 9 years. Here is a link to the GM book and others posted links to the Ford and Chrysler books. http://service.gm.com/techlineinfo/radio.html http://www.fordemc.com/docs/download/Mobile_Radio_Guide.pdf http://www.neons.org/neontsb/TSB/08/081698.htm When in doubt, RTFM eh. OK, so I just did and WOW, the person who wrote the Neon one also has the electrical and reflective grounds mixed up in his head but at least he refers to the TSB which is correct. 3rd party websites are only as good as the person typing the garbage in... GIGO eh. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >> Hey fellas. I'm wiring a new CB tomorrow and I want to do it right. I >> can't find the exact answer I'm looking for on the All Seeing Eye, so [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > -Elron Hi Mike To nit pick, it does not amplify the signal This site is really good. No garbage http://www.signalengineering.com/ultimate/index.html > A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. > [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] >> >> -Elron Ok, better said, without the proper 'reflective' ground plane, the signal will be weaker than it's potential. Better? ;-) Mike > Hi Mike > To nit pick, it does not amplify the signal [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] >>> >>> -Elron LOL...... No How about "Without the proper counterpoise, the antenna feedpoint will not be 50 ohms, resulting in increased reflections in the feedline otherwise known as, load mismatch or poor SWR" :-) > Ok, better said, without the proper 'reflective' ground plane, the > signal will be weaker than it's potential. [quoted text clipped - 117 lines] >>>> >>>> -Elron In English? Just kidding ;-) My mirror mount antenna on my fiberglass CJ7 works great, the SWR meter says it matches exact when we went to tune it. I use the full length COAX in a loose coil stuffed in the side of the body shell wall. Mike > LOL...... No > How about [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>>> The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing >>>> else. <snip> > A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. > > An 'electrical' ground is a power path. > > The 'only' thing they have in common is the word 'ground', nothing else. Well, except for the fact that all mobile antennas other than the "no ground plane" designs use the body as the ground plane and the body also serves as electrical ground. The car body is rather common between the two. > If you use an electrical ground for the transmitter's ground plane, you > will void the vehicle's warranty for all things electronic according to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Here is a link to the GM book and others posted links to the Ford and > Chrysler books. I'm sorry, but when I want to know about radio electronics I read my ARRL handbook and the handbooks of the antenna and radio manufacturers. When I want to know about cars, I read GM and Ford handbooks. What GM and Ford know about CB (11 meter) radios could fit in the palm of my hand. > 3rd party websites are only as good as the person typing the garbage > in... GIGO eh. Correct, which is why I always check these things out with more theoretical handbooks such as the ARRL handbook and with my own measurements. When the ARRL handbook, my own measurements, the antenna manufacturer's websites, the CB radio manufacturer's websites, and the 3rd party web sites all agree, it's probably accurate information. I have thus far installed my CB in my Jeep three different ways over the years. The first installation was into the cigarette lighter, this was when I didn't have time to do it right because I had just purchased the Jeep and was going on a trip. This worked fine. The next trip, I still hadn't had time to install the radio properly, so I hooked the power wire into a fuse in the fuse box and the ground wire to a screw into the body. This worked, but with significant noise from the electronics hooked to the fuse box. I finally got around to installing the radio properly, and ran a 12 gauge wire directly to the battery and placed an auxilliary fuse block under the driver's dash for my various radios with a very short wire from the radio to the fuse block (the 12 gauge wire has its own 20 amp fuse where it attaches to the battery). A 12 gauge wire with a 5 watt draw basically has no capacitance or resistance in case you're wondering and thus does not serve as an antenna nor pick up RF noise, thus it's okay to run it across the firewall to get to the driver's side. I hooked the ground to the body with the same screw used to attach the antenna junction box to the body (this is the all-in-handset radio). The result is significantly reduced RF noise, I can hear a very little hum in the background that goes up and down with engine RPM but it is inaudible when someone is talking. My SWR settings and tests with a second person holding the handy talky show that my antenna setup (a Firestick) is quite good too and that my radio has no significant distortion on transmit. Indeed, the only significant RF noise that I pick up is from high voltage power lines, which create induced RF noise in pretty much everything in the Jeep, but that's something that a simple filter will not do anything about because most of that noise is getting picked up by the antenna, not by the wiring under my dash. So, why did I not run the ground wire to the battery? Simple. Adding an additional ground path to the battery risks fire if the body ground comes loose, because the antenna end of the coax is grounded to the body. So that ground path then becomes the ground path that every power-using accessory in the cab of the Jeep will use to send its stuff back to the battery. This is Bad News. With my setup, because the coax ground (both ends - radio and antenna) and the radio ground all go to the same ground (the body) grounding the radio to the body creates no risk of fire. My measurements with the VOM show that the body ground on my Jeep is excellent at all points measured. If your Jeep on the other hand is a rust bucket you may need to do extra work to get a good ground for everything that needs a good ground -- both ends of the coax, the frame of the radio, and the radio itself. Now, has this affected the electronics of my Jeep in any way? Nope. 5 watts of power simply does not have the juice to do anything to the electronics in a Jeep. You get more induced current just by passing under a high tension power line. In short, I am both puzzled and baffled by your objections to what every major radio and antenna manufacturer recommends. Perhaps you simply misunderstood what I was posting the first time? Hopefully this clarifies things then. -Elron > I'm sorry, but when I want to know about radio electronics I read > my ARRL handbook and the handbooks of the antenna and radio > manufacturers. When I want to know about cars, I read GM and Ford > handbooks. What GM and Ford know about CB (11 meter) radios could > fit in the palm of my hand. But what GM and Ford know about their warranties is not only correct, it's oftem final and non-negotiable as many have found out. I'd pay attention to them if I were you... SignatureXS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html > I'm sorry, but when I want to know about radio electronics I read my > ARRL handbook and the handbooks of the antenna and radio manufacturers. > When I want to know about cars, I read GM and Ford handbooks. What GM > and Ford know about CB (11 meter) radios could fit in the palm of my hand. Yes, you should read and know the ARRL handbook and I believe that you do. It covers the physics of two-way radio installations. Once you understand how the system should work, you _MUST_ address the manufacturer's concerns regarding the vehicle specific installation and make your own decision as to whether their concerns are valid in your case, or you are willing to take a risk. It would be a shame to void a 7/70 warranty for a simple 3' further/shorter ground wire run (for example), even if your rig loses a little here or there in performance. tw >> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ground plane" designs use the body as the ground plane and the body also > serves as electrical ground. The car body is rather common between the two. But 'totally' separate! No ground plane simply means the antenna doesn't need a reflecting surface to set it's SWR, 'not' it doesn't need an electrical hookup.... > I'm sorry, but when I want to know about radio electronics I read my > ARRL handbook and the handbooks of the antenna and radio manufacturers. > When I want to know about cars, I read GM and Ford handbooks. What GM > and Ford know about CB (11 meter) radios could fit in the palm of my hand. I have personally seen many ABS systems crap out from a bad install as well as the digital dash and gauges and ignition in one case every time the gent transmitted. This is in the fleet of about 200 delivery vehicles I serviced. I have personally seen GM void the warranty on 'very' new GM vans and voided on one Ford van that kept 'blowing' trannies. These arrogant folks that 'knew better than GM' very quickly took the time after that from their 'too busy' of a schedule to have me properly wire the transmitters in rather than use the cigarette lighter socket they were 'insisting' on using. Their lawsuit against the parent company I worked for, for vehicle damages got dropped before it started because they were shown to be at fault for being lazy and warned in writing of the potential consequences of using the lighter plug. A bad install in a TJ was reported here on this group as making the tranny go into neutral every time the gent keyed up. <snip where you got lucky with bad installs> > So, why did I not run the ground wire to the battery? Simple. Adding an > additional ground path to the battery risks fire if the body ground > comes loose, because the antenna end of the coax is grounded to the > body. No, you are mistaken. The coax cable is 'physically' isolated from the body at the antenna, it does 'not' act as an electrical route for DC power. Please go look close at your antenna base. You will see a nylon insert isolating the antenna base from the bracket. If you unscrew the coax at the antenna and use a multimeter on continuity and put one probe on the coax plug's male antenna end threads and on the vehicle body, you will show an open circuit. That is why the negative wire must be fused so the ground can't run through the CB's 'chassis' ground and back feed into it's power line. I was transmitting data packets with error correction. It was extremely obvious when anyone's coax got frayed and 'electrically' grounded to the vehicle body by the number of retries in the packets. I would get a service call from the mainframe techs. > In short, I am both puzzled and baffled by your objections to what every > major radio and antenna manufacturer recommends. Perhaps you simply > misunderstood what I was posting the first time? Hopefully this > clarifies things then. No, I 'have' to go by the 'Vehicle' manufacturers booklets to avoid 'me' personally voiding someone's warranty and being liable for the damages or the deaths that can and 'does' occur when the ABS module or tranny module fails. (think van loaded to the roof with newspapers in a panic stop and the 'expected' ABS fails) I also 'had' to use Ericsson Canada's transmitter wiring specs which are the same as GM's which is two 10 ga. wires both fused at the battery or right at the power tap and main ground cable bolt. I also worked with RIM (Research In Motion transmitters, think blackberry guts) and their isolated antenna specs and power line specs were the same as Ericsson's. The long and short of it is whatever works for 'you' is fine, but if you want to be above board and to avoid expensive 'no warranty' fixes on your vehicle, you gotta do it 'their' way. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >>> A 'ground plane' is a reflective area for amplifying the signal. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > No ground plane simply means the antenna doesn't need a reflecting > surface to set it's SWR, 'not' it doesn't need an electrical hookup.... I'm not understanding what you're talking about. You seem to be confused. SWR is a rating of how much power is reflected from the end of the antenna back to the transmitter as harmonics instead of radiating to the airwaves. Reflected power ("standing waves") a) causes the transmission to sound garbled (since additional wavelengths are introduced into the amplitude-modulated output), and b) can damage the input capacitor or output amplifier on the transmitter. The secret to avoid standing waves is to carefully tune the length of your transmission chain in order that your power be radiated rather than reflected back. A poor ground plane (reflecting surface) can certainly cause SWR's to be high, since this causes power to be reflected back to the antenna rather than out to the intended destination, but is not by any means the only cause of high SWR's. The biggest cause of high SWR's is the fact that typically other parts of the transmission chain are radiating or are of a length that is chopping up your waves as they hea |
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