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Car Forum / Jeep / September 2007

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REGEARING FROM 3.07 TO EITHER 3.73 OR 4.11

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Tracie - 21 Sep 2007 15:58 GMT
I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post.
If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post.

Anyhoo, I definitely want to re-gear but I am not sure if the 3.73 or
the 4.11 ratio would be better for me.  I currently have 31" BFG All
Terrain T/A KOs, but will definitely upgrade to a 33" tire of some
sort in the future when these wear out.  I will never upgrade to
bigger than a 33" tire.  As for off-roading, I do some light trail
riding and the occasional hop in the mud puddle when I find one that
looks fun.  80% of my driving is highway at approximately 70 miles
round trip at a speed of anywhere from 60-70 mph.  The other 20% is
split between city driving (10%), and off-roading (10%).  My main goal
is to get my Jeep to drive as close as possible to the way it did bone
stock (being able to use my 6th gear on the freeway) and to prevent
excessive wear and tear on my clutch and engine parts.  Someone please
help!  : D

'06 TJ (4.0L with I-6)
6 speed manual
Dana 30 front/35 rear
current 3.07s

P.S.  Would I also need to upgrade my Dana 30/35 to a bigger one (like
44s)?  I don't know if this makes any difference as far as which gear
ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a
bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.
Mike Romain - 21 Sep 2007 16:38 GMT
You are viewing this Usenet Newsgroup via Google groups.  Sometimes they
can take days to update their Usenet feed.  I am on a dedicated Usenet
server that updates almost instantly.

You get what you pay for....

I believe you will want at the 'highest', 4.11 gears.  Others like even
'lower' gears like the 4.56 I think it is for 33's.  The 3.73's are too
high still and will make very little difference.

Because you aren't going to Baha it off road or run bigger than 33's,
the D35 rear will be fine.

I doubt you will want a rear locker or even a limited slip due to your
snow load.  I am in Canada and have the same snow.

A locker or limited slip is called a 'Low side finder' and does not
track in a straight line well in snow, especially with a short wheelbase
Jeep.  Some can't even run the trails in the winter, because they have
to crabwalk up an off camber trail and the trails are too narrow for
this.  When you see a pickup or something crabbing it's way up a snowy
hill sideways, that is due to a locked rear end or too much gas on a
limited slip, not fun.  If I was going to run a limited or locker, I
would want it in the front.

It is a different story on dirt, where the limited slip or locker shines.

With an open diff, one wheel acts like a rudder and you track straight.

My $0.02,

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

> I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post.
> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a
> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.
SnoMan - 21 Sep 2007 18:52 GMT
>I believe you will want at the 'highest', 4.11 gears.  Others like even
>'lower' gears like the 4.56 I think it is for 33's.  The 3.73's are too
>high still and will make very little difference.

Given this vehicle has OD axle ratios are not as scarey. A 4.10 would
be a big improvement and might be want you want based on your driving.
A 4.56 would play better here if you live in a hilly area or at a
higher elevation too. One more note, 3.73 with 33's is about the same
in effective gear ratio as stock 225's and 3.07 gears which is no barn
burner either. So you really do not want to go 3.73 route unless you
plan to go to smaller tires than 33's.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
c - 21 Sep 2007 16:53 GMT
> I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post.
> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a
> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.

Your first post showed up here, but I will reply to this one. Sixth gear
in your transmission has a .84 gear ratio, meaning that it will reduce
your RPM by 16% when you use it.

I'll assume your stock tires were 29". So with the 3.07 gears your RPM
in 5th gear at 60MPH would have been approximately 1750

Assuming 60MPH at highway speed, your RPM will be as follows:
3.73 with 31" tires = 2040 RPM
3.73 with 33" tires = 1920 RPM
4.11 with 31" tires = 2250 RPM
4.11 with 33" tires = 2100 RPM

These won't be exact because of the tires. They rarely measure the same
as their advertised size. Anyway, if you're definitely going to 33"
tires, I would personally just go with the 4.11s. Even with the 31"
tires your highway RPM wont be excessive, and the driveability in 5th
gear will be a little better than with the 3.73s and much better than
with the 3.07s.

There are a lot of articles out there about the D35 rear being too weak
for off roading with big tires, but for your application you should be
OK. The Dana 30 front is more than adequate.

One note about changing gears. Make sure you find a reputable shop that
knows how to do this. It is not difficult with the right tools, but it
is definitely not for the average home mechanic. You may also want to
look into a locker for the rear axle, which will give you more traction
off road, but some of them can make driving in the snow a little tricky
unless you have one of the switchable lockers. Regearing can get
expensive when you start upgrading to Dana 44s, lockers, etc. so be
prepared to spend some pretty serious cash. You may want to keep your
eyes open for a used D44 with the gear ratio you decide to use. They are
out there.

Chris
Carl S - 21 Sep 2007 19:58 GMT
4.56 is as close as it gets to how it was stock.

Carl

>I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post.
> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a
> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.
c - 21 Sep 2007 20:35 GMT
Sorry, but that is incorrect. Her original gear ratio is 3.07 and her
tires were 29". It's s simple ratio between the tire diameter and gear
ratio to maintain the same RPM. 29/3.07=9.45. If she maintains that same
ratio between tire diameter and gear ratio, her RPM will remain the
same. To calculate the gear ratio, she just needs to divide the tire
diameter by 9.45 to get the proper gear ratio if she wants to achieve
the same RPM as original.

for 31s it would be 3.26
for 33s it would be 3.49

Chris

> 4.56 is as close as it gets to how it was stock.
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>> ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a
>> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.
Carl S - 22 Sep 2007 00:45 GMT
Sorry, but it's widely held that 4.10 is correct for 31/32, 4.56 is for 33's
and 4.88 for 35's.

Carl

> Sorry, but that is incorrect. Her original gear ratio is 3.07 and her
> tires were 29". It's s simple ratio between the tire diameter and gear
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>>> ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a
>>> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.
L.W. (Bill) Hughes III - 22 Sep 2007 01:01 GMT
And 5.38s in Real Jeeps.
       God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> Sorry, but it's widely held that 4.10 is correct for 31/32, 4.56 is for 33's
> and 4.88 for 35's.
>
> Carl

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c - 22 Sep 2007 01:48 GMT
I'm not disputing that those gear ratios would work the best, but you
stated that they would be closest to stock, and that is simply not true.
It is a simple mathematical equation to calculate the proper gear ratio,
and nothing more.

Chris

> Sorry, but it's widely held that 4.10 is correct for 31/32, 4.56 is for 33's
> and 4.88 for 35's.
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>>>> ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a
>>>> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.
L.W. (Bill) Hughes III - 22 Sep 2007 01:58 GMT
Like: http://www.oly4x4.com/gearratios.htm
       God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> I'm not disputing that those gear ratios would work the best, but you
> stated that they would be closest to stock, and that is simply not true.
> It is a simple mathematical equation to calculate the proper gear ratio,
> and nothing more.
>
> Chris

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Mike Romain - 22 Sep 2007 02:10 GMT
She had 215's....

You are wrong.

Mike

> I'm not disputing that those gear ratios would work the best, but you
> stated that they would be closest to stock, and that is simply not true.
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>>>>> ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a
>>>>> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.
c - 22 Sep 2007 02:40 GMT
OK, so her tires are 27.6" instead of 29". The same formula still applies.

27.6" tires with 3.07 gears will turn the same RPM as 33" tires with
3.67 gears. This is HARDLY the same as the 4.56 gears that Carl said
were, and I quote "4.56 is as close as it gets to how it was stock". I
was wrong because I had the wrong original tire size. But even at that
my calculations are much closer than saying that 4.56 gears would be as
close to stock as her original setup.

> She had 215's....
>
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>>>>>> ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a
>>>>>> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.
Carl S - 22 Sep 2007 03:09 GMT
I should have been more specific. 4.56 gears turning 33" tires will restore
stock performance. The lil bit of extra gear makes up for extra wind
resistance, tire wieght, ect.

Carl

> OK, so her tires are 27.6" instead of 29". The same formula still applies.
>
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.
c - 22 Sep 2007 03:21 GMT
Fair enough. I wasn't trying to start crap or anything, I just want to
make sure that Tracie gets accurate information. A gear swap is not
something you want to mess up on and have to do twice. For as much as
she drives on the highway, I would personally lean toward the 4.11s. It
might be a good idea for her to run at 2200RPM or so on the highway to
see how it affects her fuel mileage. I don't think it will change
drastically though.

Here are the comparisons for 4.11 vs. 4.56 at 60mph:

4.11 with 31" tires = 2250 RPM
4.11 with 33" tires = 2100 RPM
4.56 with 31" tires = 2450 RPM
4.56 with 33" tires = 2325 RPM

Chris

> I should have been more specific. 4.56 gears turning 33" tires will restore
> stock performance. The lil bit of extra gear makes up for extra wind
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.
Will Honea - 22 Sep 2007 03:56 GMT
> OK, so her tires are 27.6" instead of 29". The same formula still applies.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> my calculations are much closer than saying that 4.56 gears would be as
> close to stock as her original setup.

Only problem with your math is that your assumptions are off a little.  The
tire circumference is accounted for but the mass distribution is off
significantly for power calculations - those 33's will take significantly
more power to accelerate (or to stop, for that matter - first hard stop
with stock brakes is a real eye-opener!) and they have way more exposed
surface area for drag.  Both are significant when addressing highway
performance.  A simple multiple will NOT restore the feel.

Signature

Will Honea

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Carl S - 22 Sep 2007 04:15 GMT
To restore stock 'feel':

31" tires = 4.10 gears
32/33" tires = 4.56 gears
35" tires = 4.88 gears

Carl

>> OK, so her tires are 27.6" instead of 29". The same formula still
>> applies.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> surface area for drag.  Both are significant when addressing highway
> performance.  A simple multiple will NOT restore the feel.
Jamie Mello - 30 Sep 2007 07:42 GMT
I Think I will put some 4.88 gears in. When I install my 35's

99 wrangler 31 inch good year mtr tires warn M8000 winch 2.5 lift
skyjacker shocks a lot of lights (winch,hood,bumper, wind shield) Even
more toys to come

Some people have an addiction to drink...
Some people have an addiction to drugs....
I just have an addiction to Jeeps and their accessories....

Here are a few pictures of my rig

http://s217.photobucket.com/albums/cc222/99_wrangler
c - 22 Sep 2007 04:15 GMT
>> OK, so her tires are 27.6" instead of 29". The same formula still applies.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> surface area for drag.  Both are significant when addressing highway
> performance.  A simple multiple will NOT restore the feel.

I understand that. The RPM calculations are there simply so she will
know what to expect her engine to turn while she is on the highway. If
you read the rest of the posts, I did recommend 4.11 gears, which is
more then just compensating for the tires. Also, you will see that she
did ask if 3.73 or 4.11s were better. With gas prices what they are
these days, and her driving 70 miles per day, fuel economy is also a
concern. In her case, I don't think she is going to lose much mileage
though. What she loses will be from the increased tire weight and wind
drag more than the gear change. Like I said in another post, if her
engine is lugging while she's on the highway, the gears could even help
her mileage a bit compared to what she has now. If it were my vehicle, I
would use the 4.56 gears, but I don't drive much on the highway. She
probably needs to decide between the 4.11s and 4.56s. I didn't recall
anyone recommending the 3.73s.

Chris
L.W. (Bill) Hughes III - 21 Sep 2007 21:37 GMT
Real Jeeps use 5.38s on a stock Dana 44.
       God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post.
> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a
> bit of snow from Dec. - Apr.

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