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Car Forum / Jeep / September 2007RE-GEARING TO EITHER 3.73 OR 4.11 (repeat -- sorry)
I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. Anyhoo, I definitely want to re-gear but I am not sure if the 3.73 or the 4.11 ratio would be better for me. I currently have 31" BFG All Terrain T/A KOs, but will definitely upgrade to a 33" tire of some sort in the future when these wear out. I will never upgrade to bigger than a 33" tire. As for off-roading, I do some light trail riding and the occasional hop in the mud puddle when I find one that looks fun. 80% of my driving is highway at approximately 70 miles round trip at a speed of anywhere from 60-70 mph. The other 20% is split between city driving (10%), and off-roading (10%). My main goal is to get my Jeep to drive as close as possible to the way it did bone stock (being able to use my 6th gear on the freeway) and to prevent excessive wear and tear on my clutch and engine parts. Someone please help! : D '06 TJ (4.0L with I-6) 6 speed manual Dana 30 front/35 rear current 3.07s P.S. Would I also need to upgrade my Dana 30/35 to a bigger one (like 44s)? I don't know if this makes any difference as far as which gear ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a bit of snow from Dec. - Apr. > I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a > bit of snow from Dec. - Apr. Hi Tracie I currently have 33' Dunlop Mud Rovers with 3.73 gears on my YJ. When I went to 3.73 I was running 31" tires and the jeep performed well both on and off road. When I went to the 33's I found that I really needed 4:10/4.11. Best bet is to only do it once. As far as axles go, your D30 in the front should be OK as long as you are careful. There are a couple of people in my club who run 33" tires on D35 rears (at 3.73) without any problems, but they are mostly experienced drivers who are very careful, don't spin tires, and avoid bouncing. I have had to help change axle shafts for other, less experienced folks in the club who have locked 33s on locked D35s. > I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a > bit of snow from Dec. - Apr. If you want it too run like it does now the ideal gear ration would be 3.07*33/31 = 3.27 rounded up to what is available. 3.55 seems to be available. The 3.73 or 4.1 would give you better performance off road but your fuel economy would suffer on the road. >> I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. >> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > available. The 3.73 or 4.1 would give you better performance off road > but your fuel economy would suffer on the road. Not necessarily. Her original tires were 225s I believe. If so her original tires should be about 29", which would be close to the same effective ratio as 3.55s with 33" tires. Going to 4.11s would result in approximately 15% more RPM to attain the same speed. You have to remember that going up in RPM doesn't cause a loss in fuel economy if the gearing was too high to begin with. Since her highway RPM is below the torque peak RPM of the engine, it is very possible she will see the same, or even slightly improved economy. Besides, she is having to use only 5th gear on the highway now, so obviously she needs more gear ratio. Chris > >> I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > >> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Ok, that's true. To get close to stock you would need 3.07*33/28 = 3.62. So 3.73 would probably work well. I don't know enough about the engine to know the ideal RPM so who knows, maybe 4.1 would be better than stock. I do know it would be better off road. >> I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. >> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > available. The 3.73 or 4.1 would give you better performance off road > but your fuel economy would suffer on the road. Unfortunately the flying bricks we drive don't react the same as cars when it comes to low revs. Once you get the axles 'into' the air stream by raising the body away from them with a suspension lift, it reacts 'strongly' to wind resistance. On a lifted Jeep, anything much below 2000 rpm at highway speed will start the engine lugging so you need way too much gas pedal to keep up with wind twitches or slight hills. Everyone I know and that has posted on the newsgroups that has 'dropped' the overdrive with large tires and tall gears gets better mileage at highway speeds. My CJ7 came with overdrive (5th) and 3.31 gears or 'mileage' gears. When I lifted it 3" and put 33's on, my mileage dropped by about 8 mpg after calibrating the odometer when I drove it the same as before using all the gears. It just 'doesn't' like 1750 rpm at 65 mph... As soon as I stopped using 5th so I stayed in the 2300-2400 rpm range at 65 mph, my mileage jumped way up and has stayed a consistent 23 mpg to this day. Now I do have a manually 'tuned' carb engine with a 'hot' spark and timing curve that insists on 91+ octane with a super light fiberglass body (it only takes two people to 'easily' pick up the whole body tub 'with' the seats and roll bar in it) so the thing is basically an engine on wheels that goes like a scalded cat, but still. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > >> I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > >> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Mike, I?m going to start paying attention to my RPMs when I'm on the highway. Right now I'm running 30 inch tires with 4.56 gears (up from the original 4.10) and like it a lot. I plan to put 32 inch tires on it next year. It will be interesting to see how it runs then. > > >> I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > > >> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > > - Show quoted text - If it makes any difference, my original tires were the 215/75/15. I do not have a lift on now. Just thought about it in the future. >>>>> I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. >>>>> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > If it makes any difference, my original tires were the 215/75/15. I > do not have a lift on now. Just thought about it in the future. That is why I was thinking 4.11s to match or for the 'power feel', once lifted, 4.56's. You can easily check your mileage as the modifications happen. You do enough highway driving that it can be figured easy which gear works the 'best' for 'you'. You don't need to run full tanks for tests, you can fill up after each highway run or two, or each circuit of your normal daily 'route'. Mike > > > >> I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > > > >> If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The math for those tires would be 3.07*33/27.7 = 3.66. So to keep it like stock you would use 3.73. Numerically higher if you want get your RPMs higher on the highway or for better off road performance. Tracie, if it were mine I'd go with the 4.10's now. That way you pay for the gear change once. You'll get slightly worse gas mileage so I guess you'll pay for the second gear change over time in increased fuel costs, but at least you won't have an extra big hit to your wallet when you go to 33's. 4.10 and 33's will be pretty much the same as 3.73's and 31's. Rubicon TJ Wrangers had 4.10/31's from the factory, BTW. On Sep 21, 3:31 pm, nrs <neale...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Sep 21, 2:09 pm, Mike Romain <roma...@sympatico.ca> wrote: If it makes any difference, my original tires were the 215/75/15. I do not have a lift on now. Just thought about it in the future. > Tracie, if it were mine I'd go with the 4.10's now. That way you pay for the > gear change once. You'll get slightly worse gas mileage so I guess you'll [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If it makes any difference, my original tires were the 215/75/15. I > do not have a lift on now. Just thought about it in the future. Mike -- I am definitely enthusiastic! I've never been so excited about a vehicle (and I've owned about 10 in the past 10-12 years) as I am about my Wrangler. They are so much FUN!! Thank you for your input regarding the gear upgrade. Matt -- Same thing to be said to you as well. Thanks for all your input on the gear change. I thought that the Rubi's came with 31's and 4.10's, but I wasn't 100% sure. That helps ALOT in making my decision. That basically means my rig will drive like a stock Rubi without any problems (that I know of). I got a quote today of $1500-1600 (including labor but not the sales tax) for the front/rear gear change. This is from an acutal gear shop near where I live. Does that sound about right? I got a quote today of $1500-1600 > (including labor but not the sales tax) for the front/rear gear > change. This is from an acutal gear shop near where I live. Does > that sound about right? Front/back, all parts/labor included, sounds about right. It's a little higher then when I had mine done but you need to swap the entire carriers, the 4.10 gearsets don't fit on the 3.07 carriers. Mine originally came with 3.73's so I was good, tho I did had a limited slip diff installed in the front, which replaced that carrier anyway. BEFORE YOU ASK ;-) If you plan on doing a lot of off-roading (which it sounds like you are not) then spring for the LS in the front. If not, just get the open carrier. Same for the rear. > I got a quote today of $1500-1600 > > (including labor but not the sales tax) for the front/rear gear [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sounds like you are not) then spring for the LS in the front. If not, just > get the open carrier. Same for the rear. It looks as if Tracie would need to get locking hubs for a LS on the front not to affect the steering. That is my understanding of how the newer TJs are put together anyway. That would add a few hundred. Advice for Jeep shoppers--Stay away from any Jeep with the 3.07 axle ratio. Cheers, Earle Not the case, the proof is in my garage... > It looks as if Tracie would need to get locking hubs for a LS on the front > not to affect the steering. That is my understanding of how the newer TJs [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Earle Which LSD do you have? Just from looking at the front axle design, a Trac-Loc would seem to have some effect on slippery winter roads. I know they can make for lots of fun on the rear. Cheers, Earle > Not the case, the proof is in my garage... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Earle Rear is stock Trac Loc, front is Detroit Tru-Trac. The front Tru Trac is quite transparent on the street in 2wd. > Which LSD do you have? Just from looking at the front axle design, a > Trac-Loc would seem to have some effect on slippery winter roads. I know [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> > >> > Earle Quite, the True-Trac is a gear driven gizmo, that doesn't load the axles on turns or unless it is driven by the drive shaft. The Trac-Loc is a more conventional design, that does do this and does interfere with steering, front or back. I would recommend the Trac-Loc for light duty use because it is cheap and won't break stuff, because it doesn't really ever lock. The down side is increased frequency of differential oil changes. If you want more locking behavior you can stick an extra clutch disc in it. Cheers, Earle > Rear is stock Trac Loc, front is Detroit Tru-Trac. The front Tru Trac is > quite transparent on the street in 2wd. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >> > > >> > Earle I have 33's/4.56 and at 65mph I am right about 2500rpm in OD. On Sep 21, 2:09 pm, Mike Romain <roma...@sympatico.ca> wrote: > nrs wrote: >Mike, I´m going to start paying attention to my RPMs when I'm on the highway. Right now I'm running 30 inch tires with 4.56 gears (up from the original 4.10) and like it a lot. I plan to put 32 inch tires on it next year. It will be interesting to see how it runs then. > > I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > > If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I have a rubicon running 33x12.5 with 4.10. My auto tranny won't stay in over drive on a hill with a heavy load. Go 4.56 with 33's. Hands down. > I have a rubicon running 33x12.5 with 4.10. My auto tranny won't stay > in over drive on a hill with a heavy load. Go 4.56 with 33's. Hands > down. That is one of the more ridiculous things I think I've read on here. So you're saying that with a heavy load, your transmission downshifts from overdrive when on a hill? Ignoring the fact that typically with a heavy load you should shut off the overdrive, I would tend to think that downshifting out of overdrive on a hill with a load isn't really something that I would consider the vehicle to be regeared. Is it just me or does this sound kind of ridiculous? > > I have a rubicon running 33x12.5 with 4.10. My auto tranny won't stay > > in over drive on a hill with a heavy load. Go 4.56 with 33's. Hands [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Is it just me or does this sound kind of ridiculous? I think it's just you. If you knew what an 05 rubicon came stock with you would shut your mouth; FYI, it came stock with 31's and 4.10. It now has 33's with the same gearing. You sir are a real cock sucker, > I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a > bit of snow from Dec. - Apr. I run 33's with 4.10 gearing and for me its a perfect fit for an all around vehicle. I had 31's with 3.07 gearing and hated it after a awhile Not sure if your year/type wrangler came as a 4 cyl but you could swap in some 4 cyl axles with 4.10 gears. I did on my YJ.Best upgrade I ever did. Thats what I did before I got my 8.8 in the rear :-) > > I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > > If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It probably wouldn't be too bad, if it were a manual tranny. It just drops out of OD even on the slightest hill. Its an 05 rubicon 6 cyclinder 4 liter, As long as everyone and their dog is jumping in here 3 times, I may as well add my 2 cents. I have a CJ7 running 33s and 4.10 gears, used to have 2.73s, daughter has a YJ running same 33s, she has 4.88 gears down from 4.10s, both act about the same on and off road as stock, both locked front and rear. Go 4.56 or 4.88s. >I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a > bit of snow from Dec. - Apr. First of all, for your type of driving, I would recommend the 4:11s if you're SURE you won't want 35s when you upgrade. 33s and 4:11s are a nice all around combo which I think you'll be very happy with. Secondly, what I would do, is find some lightly used complete Rubi D44 axles and just simply swap them out when you do your suspension lift. tw > I have posted this once today, but for some reason it did not post. > If anyone finds it, sorry for the duplicate post. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > ratio to go with, but where I live (upstate NY), there can be quite a > bit of snow from Dec. - Apr. > First of all, for your type of driving, I would recommend the 4:11s if > you're SURE you won't want 35s when you upgrade. 33s and 4:11s are a [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Just so that I understand, the D44 axles would just be replacing the axle shafts and the differential housings ONLY, correct? It would not be replacing the gearing again? > > First of all, for your type of driving, I would recommend the 4:11s if > > you're SURE you won't want 35s when you upgrade. 33s and 4:11s are a [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - While we're on the topic.... Since I have upgraded from 28s to 31s, can that cause the engine to lug or ping? I generally keep the RPM's around 2200-2400 in 5th gear (I have a 6 speed). In the higher gears after the engine is warm and mainly while going uphill (little or big), I get this noise on the passenger side that sounds VERY similar to the soft top side window 'pinging' against the metal support bow when the wind blows. I can't quite distinguish if that's it, or if the engine is pinging because I am not 100% sure whether it's coming from the front or the back. It's a high-pitched noise. It is NOT rhythmic or steady, but rather comes and goes intermittently. This noise does NOT happen at city/town speeds of 50 mph or lower. I ran a tank of 89 through her, and it seemed to be drastically reduced after 1/4 of the tank was used and for the rest of the 3/4 of the tank. I have now refilled again with the 89 and the noise is back. I have not used 1/4 of the tank yet, so I don't know if it will be reduced again once I get to that point. I do have a tendecy to 'stuff' as much gas in the tank as I can get (even after the automatic shuf-off on the spout kicks on). Would this be causing the problem too? > Just so that I understand, the D44 axles would just be replacing the > axle shafts and the differential housings ONLY, correct? It would not > be replacing the gearing again? No. A Dana 44 is a complete housing that includes the case, the gears, the axles, the brake mounting plate, the emergency brake, everything must be changed including the brake shoes or pads. D35 gears don't fit a D44, they are a different size. Not sure about the driveshaft. If you have ABS, then things get even more complex. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > > Just so that I understand, the D44 axles would just be replacing the > > axle shafts and the differential housings ONLY, correct? It would not [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) I do not have ABS. TW -- How complicated would it be to just switch out the axles like you're suggesting? Would this be easier than just upgrading the gearing? Or does everything that Mike mentioned have to be changed too even if you just upgrade the gearing from stock to 4.11? Would I need D44 for the front AND rear? Or do I just change the rear 35s to 44s and leave the 30 in the front? > > > Just so that I understand, the D44 axles would just be replacing the > > > axle shafts and the differential housings ONLY, correct? It would not [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > - Show quoted text - If I go the route of the D44s, what is the difference between the locking axles and the limited slip axles? > > > > Just so that I understand, the D44 axles would just be replacing the > > > > axle shafts and the differential housings ONLY, correct? It would not [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Oh goodness. I am sooo confused. What is the difference/benefit/etc. of totally changing out the Dana 30/35 for the Dana 44s (other than the stronger axles)? Won't you get the same effect if you keep the original Dana's and just upgrade the gears to 4.11s? I don't do any heavy off-roading at all, and don't ever intend to upgrade my tires to any bigger than a 33" tire. I also do not intend to lift my rig more than 4 inches (I am leaning on a 3.5 RE lift). What is the overall benefit of the stronger axles of the D44s? Now the other confusion is mentioned in my previous post regarding the difference in limited slip vs. locking. I do a lot of snow driving and a lot of highway driving if it helps. > Oh goodness. I am sooo confused. What is the difference/benefit/etc. > of totally changing out the Dana 30/35 for the Dana 44s (other than > the stronger axles)? You lose your drivetrain warranty for starters! Won't you get the same effect if you keep the > original Dana's and just upgrade the gears to 4.11s? Yup. I don't do any > heavy off-roading at all, and don't ever intend to upgrade my tires to > any bigger than a 33" tire. I also do not intend to lift my rig more > than 4 inches (I am leaning on a 3.5 RE lift). What is the overall > benefit of the stronger axles of the D44s? No benefit in your case, unless you 'really' enjoy spending money and having no drivetrain warranty on your New Jeep. Ya ya, I know about the US mag moss law, but they can 'easily' blame a t-case or tranny or driveshaft failure on a bad install as well as the brake parts or suspension parts. You can forget wheel bearings, anything to do with steering or front end. etc., etc. Now the other confusion is > mentioned in my previous post regarding the difference in limited slip > vs. locking. I do a lot of snow driving and a lot of highway driving > if it helps. See my other 2 posts about that. Traction devices are not generally a good thing on snow on the road in a short wheelbase Jeep. You are asking too many questions too fast. You should wait for answers. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > > Oh goodness. I am sooo confused. What is the difference/benefit/etc. > > of totally changing out the Dana 30/35 for the Dana 44s (other than [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Jan/06http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) Sorry (about the too many too fast). OK....I think I got it. Since I don't do any heavy off-roading, but DO do alot of highway/snow driving, I would be best to just keep my D30/35 and just upgrade the gears to the 4.11s. I could keep my original factory warranty (45,000 miles left with the extended warranty). I don't need stronger axles since I am NOT ugrading to more than 33" tires or doing any heavy off-roading. Does this cover it and sound correct? >>> Oh goodness. I am sooo confused. What is the difference/benefit/etc. >>> of totally changing out the Dana 30/35 for the Dana 44s (other than [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Does this cover it and sound correct? It does to me. And IF you want lockers for your off road stuff, which you probably don't need, then you will more than likely want the ones that you can switch on and off from the dash. This is something that would be best to decide before you do the gear change though, because the labor is basically covered in the gear change. Also, you don't need lockers in both front and back. You can just install in one axle if you wish. Chris > Sorry (about the too many too fast). Well, you sure are enthusiastic, LOL! > OK....I think I got it. Since I don't do any heavy off-roading, but > DO do alot of highway/snow driving, I would be best to just keep my [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Does this cover it and sound correct? I would do just that for now. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > You are asking too many questions too fast. You should wait for answers. > > Mike What Mike said...whew!! :) I guess my suggestion on the axle swap would be that you are going to spend some serious coin swapping gears. If you're SURE you will never need the extra beef, just gear your 30/35s...BUT...For similar money you might be able to take that investment and purchase some lightly used Rubi D44s that have FACTORY set up 4:10/4:11 gears in them already, and since you will be lifting this Jeep and your axles will be all but removed already. They also have pneumatic lockers and a helical gear limited slip (much better than clutch base for longevity). From MY perspective ALONE, this is the way I would go. Hardcore Jeepers sometimes upgrade their Rubis to stronger axles and let the orig stuff go fairly cheap in comparison. The hardest part of this swap would be moving over the air for the pneumatic lockers or installing your own, but I think it would be worth the effort. As far as warranty goes when modifying a vehicle, you have to accept that anything you upgrade will have NO Jeep warranty and anything those parts might affect MAY also be stricken from your warranty. I'm a person that takes that risk, you may not be. I put a 4" lift on my '99 TJ at 900 miles and 2k miles for the Rubi. If this bothers you, I'd wait until the basic warranty is up prior to going to 33s and the can of worms in parts you will be replacing. Since it will take a long time to wear out those BFG 31s, you may be there timewise anyway. (That gives you a couple of years to locate some cherry D44s!) tw >>>> Just so that I understand, the D44 axles would just be replacing the >>>> axle shafts and the differential housings ONLY, correct? It would not [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > If I go the route of the D44s, what is the difference between the > locking axles and the limited slip axles? One is almost impossible to drive on the street in snow, the other 'hard' to drive in snow respectively. The only one that works well in snow, except for starting off, is the one you can just turn off. Just my $0.02 from 40 years of snow driving, Mike >>> Just so that I understand, the D44 axles would just be replacing the >>> axle shafts and the differential housings ONLY, correct? It would not [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > need D44 for the front AND rear? Or do I just change the rear 35s to > 44s and leave the 30 in the front? My CJ7 came stock with the D30 front and the D44 rear. There is no such thing as switching D35 axles with D44 ones, they are apples and oranges, a completely different design. You 'can' get beefed up D35 axles though I think. TW is saying you can get the complete units from a wrecked TJ and 'hope and pray' that the wrecking process didn't bend anything when it happened so you can actually make them work. A burned out one would be safest, then you just need all new seals if the heat got to them. TJ's are too young to get rotted out body ones yet I think. They are best. Rust doesn't eat axle housings fast like it does to body tubs. Folks that run big tires (33" plus) with lockers and run them hard off road can break D35 axles or the C-clips that hold them in. That is why an upgrade is available. A used set of 'say' a D44 or a Ford 8.8" is usually cheaper than an upgrade. How long is your Warranty? Mike |
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