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Car Forum / Jeep / April 2004BFG AT's or MT's better in snow?
My AT's, on my TJ, handled snowy elk camp great last year, including towing a trailer back OUT on icy snow-packed roads. I was pleased with their performace on snow. However, I regeared to 4.10 and want to go to at least 31's, so I need to buy tires, and so I am trying to figure out if I should go MT this time, or AT again. There were times, here in western Oregon, that my AT's gave me pause. These would have been the times I contemplated trying deep sticky mud. MT's would be much better for that, I am told, though let me also say that I am not a fan of mud and what it does to vehicles (or trails for that matter), so any serious mud use would be mostly out of neccesity. Are MT's at least as good at AT's on snow packed roads? How about "raw" snow? Deep snow? -jeff I like my BF Goodrich ATs: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=All-Terrai n+T%2FA+KO MT: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=Mud-Terrai n+T%2FA+KM God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > My AT's, on my TJ, handled snowy elk camp great last year, including towing a > trailer back OUT on icy snow-packed roads. I was pleased with their performace [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -jeff Goodyear Wrangler MT/R: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Goodyear&tireModel=Wrangler+MT%2FR I am with Bill on this particular recommendation: to hell with Goodrich, buy American. Jerry > Goodyear Wrangler MT/R: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Goodyear&tireModel=Wrangler +MT%2FR Except, I do use the frog tires. I like hearing the stereo and getting fifty thousand miles. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > I am with Bill on this particular recommendation: to hell with Goodrich, > buy American. > > Jerry Jeff, I run 31x10.5's and have absolutely no qualms about my BFG AT/KO's . I took into account the fact that the TJ is also my everyday transportation, and was concerned about added highway noise and the potential for lower tread life. I think I decided on the AT's since I didn't need any of the additional strengths of the MT. >My AT's, on my TJ, handled snowy elk camp great last year, including towing a >trailer back OUT on icy snow-packed roads. I was pleased with their performace [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >-jeff I was doing a trail once about 8 inches of fresh snow with my AT's. They packed so badly, I could barely get my jeep to move. A freakin Geo tracker blew by me and he flipped me off. Nick > Jeff, I run 31x10.5's and have absolutely no qualms about my BFG > AT/KO's . I took into account the fact that the TJ is also my everyday [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > > >-jeff What kind of trail were you on that you encountered a Geo Tracker? Sure it wasn't a mall parking lot or something? ;) Dave http://mysite.verizon.net/res0p2es/david/index.htm >I was doing a trail once about 8 inches of fresh snow with my AT's. They >packed so badly, I could barely get my jeep to move. A freakin Geo tracker [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> > >> >-jeff It was in the mountains here in Az. About 8 inches of fresh snow, I think on a bed of packed 2 or 3 inches, on a dirt road. I grew up in Missouri and definatly know how to drive in snow, but on this day my Jeep failed me! Or, more like my tires failed me miserably. They were PACKED with snow and it took a ton of work to get my Jeep just to move a foot. When the tracker passed me I noticed his tires were shedding the snow real nicely, always providing fresh grip. Oh well... Nick > What kind of trail were you on that you encountered a Geo Tracker? > Sure it wasn't a mall parking lot or something? ;) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >blew by me and he flipped me off. > >Nick Flexing like with about five pounds of air pressure? God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > It was in the mountains here in Az. About 8 inches of fresh snow, I think on > a bed of packed 2 or 3 inches, on a dirt road. I grew up in Missouri and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > providing fresh grip. Oh well... > Nick No, I don't think the geo tracker guy was much into airing down. Some young kids it was... I hadn't aired down either though. I don't have any onboard air and wasn't close to civilization. Nick > Flexing like with about five pounds of air pressure? > God Bless America, ?ill O|||||||O [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > providing fresh grip. Oh well... > > Nick Jeff: I have 31 x 10.5 x 15 BFG All Terrain TA's on my '02 TJ. They go great in the snow. Check out front and rear view photos of the TJ in snow up to the axels. Went right through, with no problems. Was hard packed, frozen dirt under about 8" to 10" of snow. No other vehicles had been on this road before me, so I made LOTS of tracks (heh, heh.) alt.binaries.pictures.autos.4x4. See "Jeep TJ snow front" and "Jeep TJ snow rear" posts which I just sent. Sometimes winter IS fun! That being said, I do believe that BFG MT's or Goodyear MT's would go better in deep snow, although I have no experience with these tires to back this assumption up. Tom snip > >My AT's, on my TJ, handled snowy elk camp great last year, including towing a > >trailer back OUT on icy snow-packed roads. I was pleased with their performace [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > >-jeff >Are MT's at least as good at AT's on snow packed roads? How about "raw" snow? >Deep snow? A/Ts are better on packed snow and ice. MT/Rs are better in really deep fresh snow. You can sipe the MT/Rs and gain a little braking power on ice, but it will not help your directional control any. I found my siped MT/Rs to be scary in real world winter conditions (commuting). My solution is MT/Rs in summer, Dedicated snow tires in winter (Yokohama Geolander I/T+). It is a _very_ satisfactory arrangement, except for those in-between times when the snow melts and I want to do a little trail stuff on those winter tires. Then it's hopeless... Thank God for lockers ;) John Davies http://home.comcast.net/~johnedavies/ '96 Lexus LX450 '00 Audi A4 1.8T quattro Spokane WA USA AT's are better for packed snow, ice, rain slicked roads, and are generally quieter for highway use. MT's are good for fresh snow, heavy mud, and general trail use. The don't know which direction is forward on packed or icy roads. Goodrich AT/KO's are a very good compromise but still not as good as a dedicated tire. They will clog in deep mud, run noisier thatn most other AT's. Ya pay your money, ya get your choice. > My AT's, on my TJ, handled snowy elk camp great last year, including towing a > trailer back OUT on icy snow-packed roads. I was pleased with their performace [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -jeff Hi Jeff, I drove 33x10.50 BFG MTs on my XJ all winter with no problem. MT's are not as good as AT's at high speed on snow packed roads, but they work just fine if you drive accordingly. In deep raw snow, on road or off, the MTs are much better. In February I was driving around on unplowed roads in a blizzard that eventually accumulated 95 cm (three feet). That morning I rescued a Grand Cherokee and a Ford Ranger. Both were spinning helplessly with BFG ATs. I too choose to avoid mud if at all possible, but where I hunt and fish it sometimes must be faced. For me, having MTs instead of ATs has often made the difference between staying mobile and getting stuck. If you can put up with a slight increase in road noise and you're willing to rotate frequently, do your Jeep a favor and get the MTs. Steve > My AT's, on my TJ, handled snowy elk camp great last year, including towing a > trailer back OUT on icy snow-packed roads. I was pleased with their performace [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -jeff I have both BFG AT's and Muds and I agree with Steve. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > Hi Jeff, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > > > -jeff So do you cycle between the two based on the season or the trip? > I have both BFG AT's and Muds and I agree with Steve. > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > > > > > -jeff LOL! Yup, but I have to swap Jeeps too.... Around here, give me my tall skinny muds on my CJ7 over the AT's on my Cherokee in any winter driving. On or off road! During the ice storm last year I followed around my Boss in his service truck to make sure we could get to the job site or out of it. I have an XD9000i winch on front. I have 33x9.5 muds with a 7.5" wide tread on the road and they grab 'really' well! I keep tearing up engine mounts and exploding hubs and cracking frames because they just don't spin so things twist and torque up... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > So do you cycle between the two based on the season or the trip? > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > > > > > > > -jeff 7.5 seems awefully narrow. Wouldn't you drop through the snow/mud right to your axles? Sorta like going snowshoeing on ice skates....?? How wide are stock '02 TJ rims? 10.5?? Ok so....throw it at me.....benefits of narrow tires as opposed to fatties... And wall size was something someone brought up once (which would go with rim size no?) > LOL! > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > > > > > > > > > -jeff You kinda fiqured it out on your own. Fattie tires will float on top of the snow, where skinny tall tires will cut through the snow down to where there is traction. Same goes for mud and sand. Nick > 7.5 seems awefully narrow. Wouldn't you drop through the snow/mud right to > your axles? Ok...but with a fattie wouldn't the tread type help with traction? Like big ol'scoops on the tires or something (that's it, I'll put 4 paddles wheels on the jeep when I'm snow running!! lol). Would narrow tires not have the aggressive tread a fattie would? Though I'm sure you could purchase it otherwise....but if you have a narrow tire, are you LESS worried about getting aggressive treading? > You kinda fiqured it out on your own. Fattie tires will float on top of the > snow, where skinny tall tires will cut through the snow down to where there [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to > > your axles? Skinny tires are also called cookie cutters.... I think it has some to do with having to push wider tires through the snow. Kinda like pushing the bricks we drive through the air....... Narrows do have the same tread. Hm, I got wings and beer on my mind, maybe someone can jump in and explain. gota run! Nick > Ok...but with a fattie wouldn't the tread type help with traction? Like big > ol'scoops on the tires or something (that's it, I'll put 4 paddles wheels on [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > to > > > your axles? mmm...now I got wings and beer on my mind....nevermind!! haha > Skinny tires are also called cookie cutters.... > I think it has some to do with having to push wider tires through the snow. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > > to > > > > your axles? Stock rims are either 7 or 8" wide, most are 7" including my CJ7 Laredo rims. If you check your spare, the size is stamped on the inside face of the rim. The folks with the 'pretty' wide tires off road always get a laugh at my tires. Only one laugh though, the rest of the day is spent with them trying and trying and trying to get where I am sitting taking photos of them trying and trying, and... LOL! I have tons of photos posted at Sony's ImageStation I could post links to. Sony did the typical bait and switch and now insists folks join to see my albums. At least they don't spam.... The narrow tire doesn't spin. It has a 'lot' more psi on the ground than say a 12.5" wide one, about 30% more. This means on mud or dirt or snow I leave a nice tread mark everywhere I go, not a rooster tail mark. The wide tires float on top and spin out. Once they hit too soft, the spinning tire just digs holes. My tire on the other hand doesn't spin easy at all, so it doesn't dig holes 'easy'. In the winter on the road the difference is insane. With tires that measure 10.5" at the tread, I could go no faster than about 40 mph on the highway in 4x4. The tires got on top of the snow and the control was gone any faster. With the 33x9.5's and their 7.5" tread, I can easily hold 55 mph in 4x4 with no control issues at all so I can keep up easy to the transport trucks. It is a total myth that a wide tire is better off road. They only look pretty unless you get into 'real' flotation tires that are designed to get up on top like the folks that wheel in Iceland use. When you go to a 'too wide for the vehicle' tire, you are going strictly for looks or maybe rock crawling where that wide tread has some use. On most trails, a stock width tire is 'way' better for traction. Next time you get a chance, check out what the loggers that work out in the bush have on their trucks. You will see tall skinny always. Same for what the military used on Jeeps, tall skinny. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > 7.5 seems awefully narrow. Wouldn't you drop through the snow/mud right to > your axles? [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > -jeff My stock 16" rims are 7" wide on a '01 TJ. According to your logic, I would be better off getting something like 235/85R16, instead of 265/75R16. Both these sizes are roughly equivalent to 32" tyres. I don't want to go too high, but do want MTs. We mostly have mud, sand, dirt and grassy tracks. Very rarely do we see rocks in our region in New Zealand. Snow is never heard off in Auckland. TW > Stock rims are either 7 or 8" wide, most are 7" including my CJ7 Laredo > rims. If you check your spare, the size is stamped on the inside face [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Yes. I noticed a definite degradation in winter traction when we went from a 225 to a 235 AT tire in our Cherokee. They were both 75 series. Same for a 'radical' increase in traction when I went from a 10.5" wide tire to a 9.5 that measures 7.5" Too bad you can't go try out the tires before buying.... Mike > My stock 16" rims are 7" wide on a '01 TJ. According to your logic, I > would be better off getting something like 235/85R16, instead of 265/75R16. [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's LOL I know what you mean. I also need new tires Tires are like a good pair of hiking boots. And I like to try them on (boots) first to see how they look,fit and feel. > Yes. > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] >>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 >>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Shops have demo units for almost everything else, why not tyres? It can be a new marketing twist, try them before you buy them! TW > LOL I know what you mean. > I also need new tires [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > >>>86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > >>>88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Great, now I have found a size I should aim, rather save, for. I'll try the local Jeep dealer to see if they have a TJ with this tyre size for looks and a little drive around. Thanks TW > Yes. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Mike For looks, go for 265/75R16. For performance, go for the 235/85R16. The 265/75 will protect your stock rims a bit better but cut down your turning radius a little more. The 235/85 will wear more evenly at the proper street PSI. The 235/85R16 will have generally better traction on wet roads, mud, and dirt. The 265/75 would probably be marginally better in sand. For true flotation effect, you'll have to go much wider. When I was shopping for tires I wanted to get the 33x9.50R15 MTs, but BFG stopped making them (still available in AT though). I was seriously considering their 235/85R16 MT, but I didn't want to go to 16" rims. I settled for 33x10.50R15 and I think they're great, but I'm sure that the traction of the narrower contact patch on the 235/85R16 would be that much better. Here's a TJ with 235/85R16 Goodyear MTR: http://www.ks-tuning.de/bilder/tj/InesTJ.jpg And a YJ with 265/75R16 BFG MT: http://www.ks-tuning.de/tj/felgen3.jpg By the way, what is the bolt pattern on your rims? Steve > My stock 16" rims are 7" wide on a '01 TJ. According to your logic, I > would be better off getting something like 235/85R16, instead of 265/75R16. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > TW Thanks for the info and links. I personally don't like the sand that much because it gives a new meaning to sandwich at lunch time. I'll go to tyre shop and see if I can have a look at one in 235/85R16 and see how it compares to what I have (stock 225/70R16). TJ Renegades in New Zealand (equivalent to Saharas in USA) come standard with 16" (5 on 4.5" pattern) alloys. I have been divided between whether to go to 15" steel rims or stick with 16" alloy rims. At this stage my philosophy is to replace OEM parts with stronger/proper replacements as they break, which they all will. For some reason in New Zealand, all the tyre companies carry more metric sizes. I guess it has something to do with New Zealand adopting metric system in the 70s. Local Goodyear corporate office has promised to import in NZ any tyres for me that are available in US. Prices seem to be reasonable as well. What do you guys think about Mickey Thompsons? The local importer was bragging on big time at a local 4WD show recently. I am only absorbing info at this stage. TW > For looks, go for 265/75R16. For performance, go for the 235/85R16. The > 265/75 will protect your stock rims a bit better but cut down your [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Steve Ok....so then the question is...where's the middle ground between the A/T and M/T? > Hi Jeff, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > > > -jeff |
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