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Car Forum / Jeep / July 2004Dana 35c Overhaul questions
The original symptoms were noisy rearend. At least half of the noise went away after I installed new wheel bearings and new axles. The noise that remained was on acceleration and deceleration between about 20 to 35 mph. No noise on turns or at highway speeds. Okay, I've got everything out of the Dana 35c housing. The carrier and pinion are on my work bench. The pinion bearing cups are also on the bench. Nothing left in the pumpkin. I have a bearing replacement kit ready to start installing after the old bearings are removed from the pinion and carrier. I have some questions for the rearend experts. 1) The ring and pinion look fine to me, no cracks or broken teeth, no unusual wear pattern, no burnishing or signs of overheating, but how do you tell if the ring and pinion need replacing other than for these obvious clues?? 2) If I use the old ring and pinion with new bearings, what would keep me from re-installing the old crush sleeve, providing I carefully brought the pinion nut up to torque and checked and found the pinion preload was within specs?? In other words, why do I have to use the new crush sleeve??? I don't have a 300 to 400 pound torque wrench which the instructions say will be required to crush the new sleeve. 3) The existing ring bolts are 3/8" 24 tpi with a 13/16" head and are 9 point. The new replacement bolts are the same except they have only 7/16" head and are only 8 point. Why should I put these new inferior bolts on my ring if I don't remove the old bolts and the ring from the carrier??? Any help will be much appreciated. Troy The last supposed 'mechanic' that worked at a Jeep shop tightened down my yoke saying he knew what he was doing and he could use the old parts again. $500.00 later at a real machine shop, my rear end was back running again. He cooked all the bearings out by not knowing what he was doing. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > The original symptoms were noisy rearend. At least half of the > noise went away after I installed new wheel bearings and new [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Troy Hi Troy, Ever hear of "Throwing good money after bad"? I believe you'll learn the ring and pinion are history, as the bearings wear, so do they. I have just replaced bearings if they were broken by other loose parts, just before disassembly, and got away with it, but that's not your problem. New bearings, new crush sleeve: http://www.billhughes.com/dana35c.pdf When it explodes, please send the pictures to: http://www.billhughes.com/dana35c/ God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com > The original symptoms were noisy rearend. At least half of the > noise went away after I installed new wheel bearings and new [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Troy The role of the crush sleeve has not to do with the ring and pinion, it is there to assist is establishing the pre-load on the bearings, which will be new in your case. The crush sleeve is only a couple of bucks and is not rocket science to install properly. Why would you hesitate? Make sure you're following the procedure in your manual and go about it slowly. In most cases you install the pinion into the housing and adjust bearing pre-load before you install the ring gear. Generally, you crush the sleeve until you just reach zero lash of the pinion. From there you use an inch-lb torque wrench and measure the amount of torque to turn the pinion. You crush the sleeve until you reach the req'd torque to turn the pinion. Go too far and you throw away that crush sleeve and start again. Bill is probably right about the ring and pinion. Noise apparent on acceleration and deceleration is usually ring and pinion tooth contact noise. Could be a pinion bearing, on acceleration would be the back one, deceleration would be the front one. What are the chances of those two bearings being simultaneously at fault, especially with no visible damage? If you're going to replace the ring and pinion, make sure you know what you're doing when it comes to setting pinion depth and ring gear backlash. Improper pinion depth will leave you with more noise than you prolly have now. Actually, if you can tolerate the noise, replace the bearings and live with it. The jeep will most likely die with the noise, not from it. Steve g. > The original symptoms were noisy rearend. At least half of the > noise went away after I installed new wheel bearings and new [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Troy Hi Steve, You kind of blew over the fact that pinion depth is established with a shim that will change with new bearings: http://www.billhughes.com/pinionshim.jpg Making it a much bigger puzzle: http://www.drivetrain.com/ringpinioninstal.html God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com > The role of the crush sleeve has not to do with the ring and pinion, it is > there to assist is establishing the pre-load on the bearings, which will be [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > > > Troy Nope, didn't blow over it. If you are just replacing the bearings you re-use all of the original shims in all of the original positions. The new bearings will bring the crown and pinion gears back to original position. The gauge used to determine pinion depth ( if you're lucky enough to have one and not use machinist bluing to determine contact pattern) does not anticipate/use the bearings to measure/determine settings. Some gear sets come with a measurement from "0" engraved in the head of the pinion (ie. "+.002 or -.004). Obviously this is done without using bearings, so it anticipates that the correct bearings are built to a tolerance that will maintain these settings. Steve G. > Hi Steve, > You kind of blew over the fact that pinion depth is established [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > > > > > Troy So we agree to disagree. Just throw away the shim kit you don't it. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Nope, didn't blow over it. If you are just replacing the bearings you > re-use all of the original shims in all of the original positions. The new [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > maintain these settings. > Steve G. I've never seen pinion bearings supplied with shims, so I'm not sure what I'd throw away. You're right tho, we're not going to agree on this. I can't count how many diffs I've replace bearings in and never had to change any shims and never had a noise either. > So we agree to disagree. Just throw away the shim kit you don't it. > God Bless America, ?ill O|||||||O [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > maintain these settings. > > Steve G. Anywhere near San Antonio? I want to re-gear but don't want to pay someone big $$ to do it for me. I'd rather learn to do it myself, but don't have nearly enough tools (and in buying them I'd spend more than paying someone to do it for me...). I've been known to pay for assistance in vast amounts of beer, food, and general entertainment (laughing at my expense as I fumble around trying to get something to work, of course)... ;-) So far I've done two lifts on my TJ, intake, exhaust, all fluids, rock rails, cb, etc. It's been a great learning experience. Had friends to help out when needed, but I've moved! Eric 99 TJ SE > I've never seen pinion bearings supplied with shims, so I'm not sure what > I'd throw away. You're right tho, we're not going to agree on this. I [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > maintain these settings. > > > Steve G. Sorry, I'm in the wrong end of the world, Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada. There aren't really any specialty tools that you need other than a couple of torque wrenches (ft-lbs and in-lbs) and a press. Get yourself a good shop manual for your vehicle and follow it through. You can do it. Steve g. > Anywhere near San Antonio? I want to re-gear but don't want to pay someone > big $$ to do it for me. I'd rather learn to do it myself, but don't have [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > > > maintain these settings. > > > > Steve G. That's because the shims come in a kit with crush sleeve. Maybe you just worked for others that may have had bins full of theses, but the jobber had to buy the whole kit. What a Ford 9" from Summit looks like: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=RMG%2D8310131&view=257#largerimage I frankly don't believe you! God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > I've never seen pinion bearings supplied with shims, so I'm not sure what > I'd throw away. You're right tho, we're not going to agree on this. I > can't count how many diffs I've replace bearings in and never had to change > any shims and never had a noise either. Bill, you're such a dumb f..... Do you ever read any of the links you post? Above the photo in your link Everything you need for a complete ring and pinion installation is in this kit--Grade 8 ring gear bolts, cover gasket, bearings, seals, shims, marking compound, thread-locking compound, and silicone sealer Did you catch the part about ring and pinion installation? And, why the f.. would they mark the pinion with it's depth from the "0" or neutral point if it's all dependant on the bearings. Have you even ever opened a box with a new gear set in it? They don't ship the bearings with the gear set you dipshit. But, don't believe me. Go here http://www.richmondgear.com/ringandpinion.pdf and read the entire installation manual and note the references to pinion depth or checking distances marked on the gear set. Well Bill, you've done it again. Let your own stupidity and "I'm always right" attitude back you into another corner. > That's because the shims come in a kit with crush sleeve. Maybe you > just worked for others that may have had bins full of theses, but the > jobber had to buy the whole kit. What a Ford 9" from Summit looks like: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=RMG%2D8310131&view=257#largerimage > I frankly don't believe you! > God Bless America, ?ill O|||||||O [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > can't count how many diffs I've replace bearings in and never had to change > > any shims and never had a noise either. Steve, you ignorant son of a bitch. I'm going by what the poster said. Remember? f.ck no! For those that with a very short memory problem, Troy wrote: "From: gollee@ohmygosh.net 10:40 AM Subject: Dana 35c Overhaul questions The original symptoms were noisy rearend. At least half of the noise went away after I installed new wheel bearings and new axles. The noise that remained was on acceleration and deceleration between about 20 to 35 mph. No noise on turns or at highway speeds. Okay, I've got everything out of the Dana 35c housing. The carrier and pinion are on my work bench. The pinion bearing cups are also on the bench. Nothing left in the pumpkin. I have a bearing replacement kit ready to start installing after the old bearings are removed from the pinion and carrier. I have some questions for the rearend experts. 1) The ring and pinion look fine to me, no cracks or broken teeth, no unusual wear pattern, no burnishing or signs of overheating, but how do you tell if the ring and pinion need replacing other than for these obvious clues?? 2) If I use the old ring and pinion with new bearings, what would keep me from re-installing the old crush sleeve, providing I carefully brought the pinion nut up to torque and checked and found the pinion preload was within specs?? In other words, why do I have to use the new crush sleeve??? I don't have a 300 to 400 pound torque wrench which the instructions say will be required to crush the new sleeve. 3) The existing ring bolts are 3/8" 24 tpi with a 13/16" head and are 9 point. The new replacement bolts are the same except they have only 7/16" head and are only 8 point. Why should I put these new inferior bolts on my ring if I don't remove the old bolts and the ring from the carrier??? Any help will be much appreciated. Troy" How besides the bearings he said he had the crush sleeve and the ring replacement bolts. Now if you had every setup a rear end you would know Troy had to have buought a kit with shims, how else could "YOU" have bought them?!!!!!! Like these: http://www.reiderracing.com/install_kits.htm Now go back to lying to prospective home buyers, and stop misleading people here! God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Bill, you're such a dumb f..... Do you ever read any of the links you post? > Above the photo in your link [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Well Bill, you've done it again. Let your own stupidity and "I'm always > right" attitude back you into another corner. What does the original post have to do with the discussion about shims, you stupid f.ck. I said that he could well replace the bearings and live with the noise from the tooth contact. You went on to say, with your head firmly planted in your a.s, that I "You kind of blew over the fact that pinion depth is established with a shim that will change with new bearings:" You then went on to post a link to a pic that showed a pinion with a shim and a bearing, as if that confirmed that the shim needed to be replaced if the bearing was replaced. I went onto explain that the shim thickness will not need to change with new brgs. Remember that fuckhead? > Steve, you ignorant son of a bitch. I'm going by what the poster said. > Remember? f.ck no! For those that with a very short memory problem, Troy [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > Well Bill, you've done it again. Let your own stupidity and "I'm always > > right" attitude back you into another corner. > I went onto explain that the shim thickness will not need to change with new > brgs. Hey are you sure you don't work for the shop that blew my rear end? He said the same thing.... Ya know, there is a reason they say to only use the crush sleeve once and that a shim kit is needed with new bearings..... You 'really' shouldn't be misleading folks here. It can cost too much money if they believe you. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Your rear end did not blow because of the shim issue, it was because of the crush sleeve or some other error the tech did. I did not say he shouldn't replace the crush sleeve, in fact I said just the opposite (see my original post) Find me anywhere that states the rear end shimming must be corrected when new bearings are installed. Check below for an explanation of pinion markings and how they are determined without the bearings that will ultimately be used on that pinion. I've done that job by the book countless times and never had a comeback. I am an Inter-Provincially licensed mechanic that believes in doing it by the book. Be carefull what you believe of what Bill Hughes posts here. He frequently has the bullshit meter pinned in the red. > > I went onto explain that the shim thickness will not need to change with new > > brgs. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's In my case it was a shim and 'I don't need no damn torque wrench on the big nut' issue. My Dana 44 doesn't have crush sleeves. anyhoo, i bet the OP has got the idea by now, I am of to a big Custom Street Rod show up north. Mike > Your rear end did not blow because of the shim issue, it was because of the > crush sleeve or some other error the tech did. I did not say he shouldn't [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's I'm still trying to figure out where you come up with this pinion Zero thing, it's like your saying there not only no need to change shims with new bearings, but maybe you think there's no shim on the pinion like the Ford nine inch, that's because in the Ford, the whole pinion bearing case is shim against the third member housing. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Bill, you're such a dumb f..... Do you ever read any of the links you post? > Above the photo in your link [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Well Bill, you've done it again. Let your own stupidity and "I'm always > right" attitude back you into another corner. The purpose in pointing out the pinion depth markings on the head of the pinion is to illustrate to the other readers that are relying on these posts for accurate information that you are full of sh.t. The fact that pinion depth is measured and marked on a pinion without using the bearings that will be installed with this pinion shows that the pinion depth is independant of the bearings. Proving without refute that your statement that if he replaces the bearings he must re-shim the pinion is ABSOLUTELY A CROCK OF sh.t. > I'm still trying to figure out where you come up with this pinion > Zero thing, it's like your saying there not only no need to change shims [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Well Bill, you've done it again. Let your own stupidity and "I'm always > > right" attitude back you into another corner. Steve, just like no two differential housings are alike, so be every other part in the assembly, bearings by the same manufacture are close, but do change design and other manufacturers are differently different, as we see especially with wheel bearings. but, then that's why we automatically recheck the specs, and I'll say again, every time there's a change in bearings there must be a change in shims. PERIOD! God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > The purpose in pointing out the pinion depth markings on the head of the > pinion is to illustrate to the other readers that are relying on these [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that if he replaces the bearings he must re-shim the pinion is ABSOLUTELY A > CROCK OF sh.t. Gotta go your direction here, Bill, but have always first tried the fit with the original shims +- the correction for the pinion marking. AIR, something like 3 out of 4 were right that way - but that 1-in-4 could vary from real close to WTF? I always treated that as a starting point, especially if a single bearing set was changed (pinion or carrier - yeah, I did change only the bad one when bucks were tight). That said, I rarely found the original shims even in the ball park if both bearing sets were changed at once. I still have what's left of a fairly large tube of prussian blue and a 1955 version of the Motors Manual that has a GOOD set of pictures showing all sorts of contact patterns for both good and bad drive and coast side patterns. I once had an old German cabinet maker for a shop teacher and I will never forget what he used to say: "Der's two vays to do 'tings: right und ofer". On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:15:28 UTC L.W.(ßill) Hughes III <billhughes@cox.net> wrote: > Steve, just like no two differential housings are alike, so be every > other part in the assembly, bearings by the same manufacture are close, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > that if he replaces the bearings he must re-shim the pinion is ABSOLUTELY A > > CROCK OF sh.t.  SignatureWill Honea That's something like what the fool that cooked my CJ's rear end said.... In my case he was wrong. I watched a machine shop do it 'properly' and shims and micrometers were involved. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > Nope, didn't blow over it. If you are just replacing the bearings you > re-use all of the original shims in all of the original positions. The new [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > > > > > > > Troy Why would I hesitate? Because of the amount of torque involved to crush the sleeve. I have only one crush sleeve, but obviously I should have ordered some extra ones. Also, my torque wrench only goes up to 250 ftlbs and I'm a bit worried about going into the 350 ftlb range without knowing where I am. All this worry is because I have never done this before. If I thought there was a harmless shortcut, I would take it. But all of you can rest easy, I will go ahead and install the new crush sleeve whichever way I go. Also, I have all the micrometers, calipers, inlb torque wrench, etc. necessary for checking and making sure preloads and backlash are within specs. I even have the monster W-129B differential case spreader that I miraculously found a while back in a pawn shop for fifty bucks. But I do have tight budget constraints, and if I have to re-install the old R&P with new bearings, I will. I've requested quotes from various drivetrain shops for a new R&P. If I go the route of reusing the old R&P and the noise is still there, or worse than before, I will do it all over again with new R&P and then I will have had the experience to maybe do a better job. I presently have far more time than money, so it would be no big deal to do it all over again. Anyway, all the replies to my query, even with the disagreements, have been most helpful. Thanks to all of you! Troy > The role of the crush sleeve has not to do with the ring and pinion, it is > there to assist is establishing the pre-load on the bearings, which will be [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > > > Troy My rear end was 'extremely' noisy with the blown pinion bearings. It scared me when I drove away after the proper repair it was so quiet. I thought the noise was my mud tires. I still have the original R+P in there. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > Why would I hesitate? Because of the amount of torque involved > to crush the sleeve. I have only one crush sleeve, but [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > > > > > > Troy Troy, You don't need to worry about your 250 lb torque wrench. Torque wrench is there for measuring the torque you're applying. You don't need to worry about how torque you're applying, you need to just reef on it until the sleeve crushes. If you're worried about damaging your torque wrench, use a straight bar. The torque wrench you need to worry about is the inch lb one that will measure the torque required to turn the pinion with the sleeve crushed. It sounds like you have all of the equipment necessary. There is a link in one of my posts to a Richmond Gear .pdf that has pretty detailed instructions. Sounds like all you need is the confidence. Go slowly, check your play on the pinion frequently and you'll be fine. Steve G. PS, in spite of what Bill has said, if you are not changing R & P just re-use all of the original shims in their original places and you will have pinion depth and backlash back to factory placement. If the gear set is worn you may need to re-shim the carrier to take up some excessive backlash, but assemble it first with the original shims, check the backlash and then make adjustment if necessary. If the gear set is worn enough to create the excessive backlash it will probably still be noisey, but re-adjusting backlash may take some of it out. Steve G. > Why would I hesitate? Because of the amount of torque involved > to crush the sleeve. I have only one crush sleeve, but [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > > > > > > Troy Hi Troy, This is the combination I use: http://www.billhughes.com/pipewrench.jpg A two foot pipe wrench, and a forged L without the little ball that's designed to hold the socket, that weakens it. It's only about a foot long, so I use the bottle jack handle to feather the floor jack handle. Use your breaker bar if you want a nice shinny new one. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com > Why would I hesitate? Because of the amount of torque involved > to crush the sleeve. I have only one crush sleeve, but [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Troy |
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