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Car Forum / Jeep / March 2005world's heaviest flywheel?
Just took delivery of a 05 wrangler x, manual transmission. After driving it about 50 miles, I noticed what felt like a stuck throttle when letting off the accelerator in 2nd or 3rd at 3400 rpm or so. I checked under the hood and the problem is not with the throttle return - it returns promptly. But the engine continues at high rpm for a second or two before slowing. My guess is a poor choice of engine management logic in the factory chip - or the world's heaviest flywheel. I took the car in to a dealer on Saturday. No tech on duty, but a salesman drove the car and told me it was normal behavior. I sure hope he is wrong. I strongly dislike the sluggish response - when I let off the gas, I want instant slowing. Is this slushmobile performance normal for a 05 wrangler? If the salesman says it's normal. ask him to demonstrate it in another vehicle. > Just took delivery of a 05 wrangler x, manual transmission. After > driving it about 50 miles, I noticed what felt like a stuck throttle [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Is this slushmobile performance normal for a 05 wrangler? >If the salesman says it's normal. ask him to demonstrate it in another >vehicle. Did you do this? Test drive another one, see if it's the same. Don't take the dealers word that it's normal (or Bills ) Tookie - Denham Springs, LA 88YJ, 4" lift, 33" TSLs, Lock-Rights PosiLock, 4.10s I just had the problem looked at by the tech at the dealer. He agreed on the behavior, but said it was "normal" for the 6 speed models. His guess was that it was a work-around for a problem with the transmissions, a way to hold the rpm up on upshifts. A piss-poor engineering choice in my opinion (and his). Instead of fixing the problem, they made the throttle stick!!?? Does anyone know of a solution? Yup, every car with electronic fuel injection and computer, since the early eighties will not let us use engine braking, at least for the first three or four seconds. It's apart of the EPA's fight for better mileage, in that there are many people that constantly vary their accelerator position, screwing up there mileage. If you see a cop in your rearview mirror pull her down into second gear to quickly slow down rather than tip the cop we're running twenty over by touching our stop lights. Or put a plate under the step motor, pictured #2: http://members.cox.net/wilsond/tb/tb.html and use the hidden idle stop, as I do. Or reprogram it using a DRB-III: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4516086755&ca tegory=43989&sspagename=WD1V Or Aftermarket: http://miller.spx.com/data/DC02-07A.pdf God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > I just had the problem looked at by the tech at the dealer. He agreed > on the behavior, but said it was "normal" for the 6 speed models. His [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Does anyone know of a solution? ?? My TJ doesn't behave like that, not has any fuel injection car I have ever driven. In fact, the TJ is almost notorious for it's bouncy throttle... Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ > Yup, every car with electronic fuel injection and computer, since > the early eighties will not let us use engine braking, at least for the > first three or four seconds. It would, if the Environmental Protection Agency had any authority in your country. Looking at your buildings, that may not be a bad idea. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > ?? My TJ doesn't behave like that, not has any fuel injection car I have > ever driven. > In fact, the TJ is almost notorious for it's bouncy throttle... > > Dave Milne, Scotland > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ your buildings can't stay up long enough to get dirty :-) Dave Milne, Scotland '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ > It would, if the Environmental Protection Agency had any authority > in your country. Looking at your buildings, that may not be a bad idea. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dave Milne, Scotland > > '91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ Mine doesn't behave like that either. Of course Bill will come up with some pithy remark why rather than admit he's wrong... :-) > ?? My TJ doesn't behave like that, not has any fuel injection car I have > ever driven. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> the early eighties will not let us use engine braking, at least for the >> first three or four seconds. Jump in that old Ford, if your Brother lets you in it, and you'll feel the way an engine's supposed to operate, giving you and engine brake. That use to cause a rapping sound, remember? Back when Americans were smart enough to operate a Real car. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Mine doesn't behave like that either. Of course Bill will come up with some > pithy remark why rather than admit he's wrong... :-) Bill -- I suspect the engine control computer is the problem and, like you, suspect that it is programmed as it is because of a nanny mentality, either for milage or emissions or out of concern that nobody knows how to upshift properly. However, ... that leaves the question: how to fix it? I checked out all the referenced sites, but could find no answers. If it were a Ford or GM, probable because all the Hot Rodder that prefer those makes we may buy a chip and programer for about four hundred buck. But the DRB-III is the only way I know of that you will let you set your idle speed, richness, shift points, rev limiter. I already gave you the that link, and the fact that I block my step motor off. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Bill -- > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > However, ... that leaves the question: how to fix it? I checked out > all the referenced sites, but could find no answers. Bill -- But the DRB-III is over $6,000 - way too much money for me. And setting the idle speed, richness, shift points, or rev limiter would not solve the problem. What effect does blocking the step motor have? Better yet, how is it done. I will try it myself. Thanks, Bob Brown >Bill -- > >But the DRB-III is over $6,000 - way too much money for me. And >setting the idle speed, richness, shift points, or rev limiter would >not solve the problem. Just as well, since the DRB won't allow you to change any of that anyway. That is unless you're capable of writing code that the Jeep PCM understands, can figure out a way to load that into a DRB, and then manage to upload it from the DRB to the PCM. >What effect does blocking the step motor have? Better yet, how is it >done. I will try it myself. It won't work. >Thanks, >Bob Brown Bill -- I looked at the pic #2 you mentioned and then under the hood. I think I see where the plate should go, but I saw no obvious way to remove the step motor. Can you tell me what I need to do to get it off? How thick a plate? What is the effect of the plate? Does it disengage the step motor gear by moving it out? Or does it somehow cause the step motor to work but with less rotation? Where is the hidden idle stop? Is the idea to disable or limit in some way the action of the step motor and compensate by adjusting the idle? A very cool idea if it works. If this will solve the problem I will do it at once. By the way, I once had an old Ford with a nice glass-pac rap. Thanks again, Bob Brown Hi Bob, The step motor is held on by four bolts, directly over the throttle valve it bypasses. I just cut a beer can to fit over the the two holes over the gasket and between the motor. You see the throttle stop by looking closely at what stops it's bell crank, usually the screw pokes out enough to grab it with pliers or use a jewelers screwdriver. You'll have to set it a little faster than we like to make up for no longer having a cold fast idle. Yup, the only way we may have a rap by sucking a little oil by complete closing the throttle butterfly, something these Wannabees haven't a clue. God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Bill -- > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Thanks again, > Bob Brown Difficult, since he lives almost 1,000 miles away, but I did drive it thru high school. Not much engine braking through that 3-speed C6 auto. > Jump in that old Ford, if your Brother lets you in it, and you'll > feel the way an engine's supposed to operate, giving you and engine [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> some >> pithy remark why rather than admit he's wrong... :-) Bull. L.W.(ßill) Hughes III wrote: > Yup, every car with electronic fuel injection and computer, since > the early eighties will not let us use engine braking, at least for the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >>Does anyone know of a solution?  SignatureJerry Bransford PP-ASEL N6TAY See the Geezer Jeep at http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/ Your typical non constructive comment. How you every flew a helicopter in Vietnam I'll never guess! God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Bull. He flew, you didn't, jealous? But more to the point, what's the point of your gratuitous comment? (trolling for another round of tweaking Bill's chain) :) L.W.(ßill) Hughes III wrote: > Your typical non constructive comment. How you every flew a > helicopter in Vietnam I'll never guess! > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O > mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > >>Bull. There needs to be a gradual drop off in the fuel supply, even if the accelerator is suddenly released. Otherwise, the engine will drop below a stable RPM due to the sudden change in the amount of fuel being fed to it, and will run rough (or maybe even die) between gear shifts. You can see this in the fuel injected Datsun 280Zs from the 70s if you remove the dash pot. The dash pot dampens the fuel drop off on the sudden release of the accelerator. If the dash pot is not there, it's a bit of a challenge to change gears while trying to keep the engine alive between shifts. As for why a large delay in your Jeep, maybe it's an American manufacturer thing. My '90 Nissan 300ZX does what you describe when the engine's cold, but not after it's warmed up. When the engine's warm, the throttle drops off as normal. And it's always acted this way since it was new. The Mopar MPI conversion kit doesn't do this either, but that has a customer ROM from Hesco. SignatureMichael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer, 1891 L.W.(ßill) Hughes III (billhughes@cox.net) wrote on Monday 07 March 2005 03:31 pm: > Yup, every car with electronic fuel injection and computer, since > the early eighties will not let us use engine braking, at least for the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > http://members.cox.net/wilsond/tb/tb.html and use the hidden idle stop, > as I do. Or reprogram it using a DRB-III: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4516086755&ca tegory=43989&sspagename=WD1V > Or Aftermarket: http://miller.spx.com/data/DC02-07A.pdf > God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Does anyone know of a solution? Michael -- Agreed, it may well be a recent American manufacturer thing. My 91 nsx does not have the problem and neither does my 72 Pinto engine/Weber carb in the Formula Ford. Thanks for the Mopar reference. I will check it out. Do you have personal knowledge of the Mopar MPI kit on an 05 wrangler 6-speed? Thanks, Bob Brfown rgb (robert.garth.brown@gmail.com) wrote on Tuesday 08 March 2005 10:37 am: > Michael -- > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, > Bob Brfown No, but maybe ask the guys at Hesco (www.hescosc.com) if they sell a ROM or CPU to fix the problem. They may not, but they should know if anyone out there has a fix. SignatureMichael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer, 1891 My 2002 TJ 5 speed most definitely engine brakes, and right away too. This is best manifested when in cruise control. When I set it at 45 and go up and down hills, it stays right at 45 amazingly so. There is no drift upwards like there is in my other automatic transmissioned car. I specifically do this on one hill where a cop sits at the bottom. Also, I remember my 87 YJ 5 spd had 'normal' engine braking as well. Tomes > Yup, every car with electronic fuel injection and computer, since > the early eighties will not let us use engine braking, at least for the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > http://members.cox.net/wilsond/tb/tb.html and use the hidden idle stop, > as I do. Or reprogram it using a DRB-III: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4516086755&ca tegory=43989&sspagename=WD1V > Or Aftermarket: http://miller.spx.com/data/DC02-07A.pdf > God Bless America, ?ill O|||||||O [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Does anyone know of a solution? > I just had the problem looked at by the tech at the dealer. He agreed > on the behavior, but said it was "normal" for the 6 speed models. Hmm, I'll have to see if I notice the same thing on my way home tonight. So far (2500 miles) I haven't had any complaints about my 05's handling. -D SignatureIf you want to know what God thinks about money, just look at the people He gives it to. -- Old Irish Saying www: http://dman13.dyndns.org/~dman/ jabber: dman@dman13.dyndns.org Derrick Hudson did pass the time by typing: >> I just had the problem looked at by the tech at the dealer. He agreed >> on the behavior, but said it was "normal" for the 6 speed models. > > Hmm, I'll have to see if I notice the same thing on my way home > tonight. So far (2500 miles) I haven't had any complaints about my > 05's handling. Worlds heaviest flywheel. http://www.revbeergoggles.com/temp/bigassdiesel.jpg Also the worlds largest diesel engine. SignatureDougW |
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