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Car Forum / Jeep / June 2005

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Mobile 1 & Moblie 1 EP Q

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Campbell C Freeman - 31 May 2005 22:38 GMT
What would be the difference (chemically, physically) between Mobile 1
("Classic - SuperSyn"), versus Mobile 1 Extended Performance (EP), that
would cause M1 EP not to satisfy D/C Jeep New Car Warranty Requirements,
whereas Mobile 1 does?

Is it:  Mobile 1 SuperSyn meets ILSAC:  GF-3 (energy conserving), & API SJ &
Mobile 1 Extended Performance does not?  Or is it deeper than that?  And is
M1 EP hazardous to a new motor?

SAE 10W30:  Recommended for 2005 Wrangler (TJ) Rubicon 4 IL6.   Both weights
available in Mobile 1 & Mobile 1 EP.

Please no fireballs...

...this is neither a debate about the merits (or lack thereof) of synthetic
motor oils, nor the justifications for both dino & synthetic motor oils.

Thanks very much.

Campbell Freeman
South Carolina
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 31 May 2005 22:49 GMT
    Probably need to grease a few palms at Society of Automotive
Engineers.
    Two buzz words "Extended Performance" usually used to describe
snake oils.
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> What would be the difference (chemically, physically) between Mobile 1
> ("Classic - SuperSyn"), versus Mobile 1 Extended Performance (EP), that
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Campbell Freeman
> South Carolina
Coasty - 31 May 2005 23:28 GMT
Old school Bill, most of the top end autos do not require oil changes until
10k.  The extended version of Mobile 1 is not new they have been using it
for several years.  Both versions meet the manufacturers warranty for oil
use the difference is in the frequency of RECOMMENDED changes.  The
recommended change interval is only that and use of extended life will not
violate any vehicle warranty in the US by Federal Law.  I have a pick-up
truck with 150,000 miles on it and I have been changing the oil every 7500
or 6 months which ever comes first. The biggest thing was finding an oil
filter that lasted 7500 and I just changed it out twice.  Now there are
several brands on the market that last 7500 miles.  Harley Davidson in the
past couple of years got on the synthetic oil band wagon with their
screaming chicken synIII after years of saying  synthetic oil was snake oil,
now all their bikes recommend oil and filter changes at 5,000 miles.  The
times they are a change in, don't get in a rut keep an open mind.

Signature

Coasty
Semper Paratus
(Always Ready)

|     Probably need to grease a few palms at Society of Automotive
| Engineers.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
| > Campbell Freeman
| > South Carolina
Campbell C Freeman - 31 May 2005 23:35 GMT
I was told by the folks at Exxon Mobil that EP did not satisfy all of DC's
Jeep Warranty Requirements and for that reason they said one should not use
it while the vehicle is under warranty.  Even following the Jeep recommended
change intervals.  Same as for Mobil 1.

Mobil 1 yes ...Mobil 1 EP no.

What is it?

> Old school Bill, most of the top end autos do not require oil changes
> until
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> | > Campbell Freeman
> | > South Carolina
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 00:06 GMT
    I don't know anyone whom thinks synthetic oil is snake oil, we all
know it comes from the same refinery, with just a couple more
refinements to the base oils. I'd probably use if it wasn't so expensive
to drain every three thousand miles, and that's the only to keeps the pH
down. The reason my heads have never been off of my Bronco at over three
hundred and fifty thousand miles: http://www.billhughes.com/smog.jpg 
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com

> Old school Bill, most of the top end autos do not require oil changes until
> 10k.  The extended version of Mobile 1 is not new they have been using it
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Semper Paratus
> (Always Ready)
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 00:12 GMT
    And of course, not changing oil until ten thousands miles on a TJ
under warranty would be silly:
http://www.billhughes.com/lubeschedule.pdf

"L.W.(ßill) Hughes III" wrote:

>      I don't know anyone whom thinks synthetic oil is snake oil, we all
> know it comes from the same refinery, with just a couple more
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>         God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com
Stephen Cowell - 01 Jun 2005 04:40 GMT
>      I don't know anyone whom thinks synthetic oil is snake oil, we all
> know it comes from the same refinery, with just a couple more
> refinements to the base oils.

That's wrong.

http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_syn_lub.html
__
Steve
.
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 05:06 GMT
    Maybe you can tell me what basestocks are?
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

>  That's wrong.
>
> http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_syn_lub.html
> __
> Steve
> .
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 05:23 GMT
    Clue, everything of this earth must be animal, vegetable, or
mineral: http://www.redlineoil.co.uk/faq.htm

"L.W.(ßill) Hughes III" wrote:

>      Maybe you can tell me what basestocks are?
>         God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
> mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/
Stephen Cowell - 01 Jun 2005 05:47 GMT
>      Clue, everything of this earth must be animal, vegetable, or
> mineral: http://www.redlineoil.co.uk/faq.htm

Then what is Oxygen?  Or Carbon?
__
Steve
.
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 21:03 GMT
    Minerals, have you taken you minerals today?
http://www.mii.org/periodic/MIIperiodicChart.html
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> Then what is Oxygen?  Or Carbon?
> __
> Steve
> .
Stephen Cowell - 02 Jun 2005 04:20 GMT
> > Then what is Oxygen?  Or Carbon?

>      Minerals, have you taken you minerals today?

What if the Oxygen is in one of my blood cells?
What if the Carbon is in a piece of lettuce that
I'm digesting?
__
Steve
.
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 02 Jun 2005 05:30 GMT
    Then I would say you are Sun powered like everything else on earth.
Strange how carbon is in the air, and we can't see it, has no substance,
yet that log one fire is all carbon, turning the sun's energy back into
power, just like the petroleum we burn converting it back to sun power.
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> What if the Oxygen is in one of my blood cells?
> What if the Carbon is in a piece of lettuce that
> I'm digesting?
> __
> Steve
> .
Stephen Cowell - 01 Jun 2005 05:43 GMT
> >      I don't know anyone whom thinks synthetic oil is snake oil, we all
> > know it comes from the same refinery, with just a couple more
> > refinements to the base oils.

> >  That's wrong.
> >
> > http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_syn_lub.html

>      Maybe you can tell me what basestocks are?

I thought the site was very clear!

" Defining the term "synthetic lubricant" is becoming more
controversial these days, but in general it refers to a lubricant
or grease whose basestock has been manufactured by
chemical synthesis or organic reaction, as opposed to
being extracted or refined from naturally occurring oils. "

Is there something there you don't understand?
__
Steve
.
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 21:09 GMT
    The courts have let the legal definition of synthetic slide into
meaning refined from petroleum basestocks, as we see at this site:
http://www.1st-in-synthetics.com/articles7.htm
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> I thought the site was very clear!
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Steve
> .
Stephen Cowell - 02 Jun 2005 05:17 GMT
> > I thought the site was very clear!
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> > Is there something there you don't understand?

>      The courts have let the legal definition of synthetic slide into
> meaning refined from petroleum basestocks, as we see at this site:
> http://www.1st-in-synthetics.com/articles7.htm

Nice link... read the whole thing.  My understanding
was that refining oil makes smaller molecules, and
reformation makes bigger molecules... turns out that
the petrochemical industry puts *all* of its processes
under the heading of 'refining'.

The chemical industry is headed for the time when
we can create *anything* ouf of *anything*...
anyway, thanks for helping me learn something, Bill.
Synthetic oil can come from the ground.
__
Steve
.

__
Steve
.
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 02 Jun 2005 06:00 GMT
    I'm from a generation where everything started being made from oil,
my plastic toys, to the nylons my mother gave up for the war effort. We
didn't think of it a synthetic, just a product we used:
http://www.saskschools.ca/~gregory/sask/oilproducts.html
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> > > I thought the site was very clear!
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Steve
> .
Campbell C Freeman - 31 May 2005 23:31 GMT
Thanks,

I intended to mention that one would (by default), have to abide by the
manufacturer's specifications and requirements for recommended oil & filter
change intervals, NOT on what the bottle of oil says.

All that being equal:  Frequency of change intervals, similar driving
circumstances & conditions, AND abiding by the DC Jeep Warranty
requirements...then what is it?

...
And it's MOBIL 1 NOT MobilE 1.

Pardons please.

>     Probably need to grease a few palms at Society of Automotive
> Engineers.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>> Campbell Freeman
>> South Carolina
Coasty - 31 May 2005 23:37 GMT
It is what the bottle says and DC cannot dispute that under Federal Law.  I
have only changed my oil in my 04 TJ twice.  Besides Mobile 1 stands behind
their products and realistically how would DC know how often you change your
oil unless you tell them?  They cannot tell by looking at it and if it looks
a little dirty you just say that it is time for an oil change.
Signature

Coasty
Semper Paratus
(Always Ready)

| Thanks,
|
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
| >> Campbell Freeman
| >> South Carolina
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 00:22 GMT
    Haven't you every heard of a pH test paper? That instantly tell us
the caustic or acid reading?
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> It is what the bottle says and DC cannot dispute that under Federal Law.  I
> have only changed my oil in my 04 TJ twice.  Besides Mobile 1 stands behind
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Semper Paratus
> (Always Ready)
Jerry Bransford - 01 Jun 2005 00:47 GMT
I seriously doubt Mobil would do anything but ignore or laugh at any
request for a new engine or financial assistance for a rebuild if you
claimed your Jeep engine failed while using their Mobil 1 EP oil and
Mopar voided the warranty due to use of a non-certified oil.  And if the
oil change intervals were at 10,000 miles, Mopar would void the warranty
for that reason alone.  And if Mobil's Mobil-1 EP didn't meet all of
Mopar's SAE certification requirements for an engine lubricant, Mopar
would dishonor the engine warranty in that case too.  For any automotive
engine manufacturer to warranty a blown engine, you had better have
written receipts for either oil changes or oil and filter purchases in a
quantity sufficient to indicate the oil had been changed often enough to
meet the engine manufacturer's oil interval change requirements.

A recent thread on an Internet-based Jeep forum talked about the same
problem with Amsoil refusing to help after an engine blew using their
oil.  Amsoil reps have always claimed Amsoil would cover an engine if it
failed while using their oil and the engine manufacturer voided the
warranty because many of Amsoil's products haven't been SAE certified.
Amsoil basically told the guy to go pound sand, refusing to help in any
manner.

If you're going to expect an engine manufacturer to honor an engine
warranty, you had better be able to prove you met every requirement in
the owner's manual. And if you expect an oil manufacturer to help if the
engine manufacturer voided the warranty because the oil didn't meet the
engine manufacturer's published requirements, you need your head
examined. :)

> It is what the bottle says and DC cannot dispute that under Federal Law.  I
> have only changed my oil in my 04 TJ twice.  Besides Mobile 1 stands behind
> their products and realistically how would DC know how often you change your
> oil unless you tell them?  They cannot tell by looking at it and if it looks
> a little dirty you just say that it is time for an oil change.

Signature

Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL N6TAY
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

Campbell C Freeman - 01 Jun 2005 01:13 GMT
I guess Jerry says it best.  He usually does.

My question is just this, really:

Will Mobil 1 EP; SAE 10W30 Synthetic Motor Oil harm a new ("their")
DaimlerChrysler 4.0 Liter In-Line Six Cylinder Motor, following the
manufacturer's (D/C's), recommendations and adherence to recommended service
intervals, based on driving habits and conditions as specified in The
Warranty and The Owner's Manual.?

Does anyone know?

Sounds like no one really knows...

>I seriously doubt Mobil would do anything but ignore or laugh at any
>request for a new engine or financial assistance for a rebuild if you
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>> and if it looks a little dirty you just say that it is time for an oil
>> change.
Matt Osborn - 01 Jun 2005 02:34 GMT
>I guess Jerry says it best.  He usually does.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Does anyone know?

Time loves a hero, but there hasn't yet been enough time to know.

-- msosborn at msosborn dot com
Stephen Cowell - 01 Jun 2005 04:47 GMT
> I guess Jerry says it best.  He usually does.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Sounds like no one really knows...

Personally, I'd wait 15-20000 miles before
putting in synthetic... ring seating voodoo
and all.  Couldn't hurt...

And why this intense interest in the EP grade?
Just use Mobil 1 normal and be done with it.

I use Syntec 10W30 in my '00 XJ and
change it every 10000 miles.  It had 40000
on it when I got it.  No problems at 90000.
__
Steve
.
Campbell C Freeman - 01 Jun 2005 17:57 GMT
I was just trying to figure out what the difference is and would EP harm the
motor ("EP does not meet current D/C warranty requirements")*, whereas
"regular" Mobil 1 meets D/C new motor warranty requirements.

Thanks for the discussion,

Campbell

* Reply from Mobil 1 Technical Customer Service from my same question to
them.  I have no problem with using "regular" Mobil 1 or dino for that
matter.  Just inquisitive...wanting to know.

>> I guess Jerry says it best.  He usually does.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Steve
> .
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 21:11 GMT
Signature

       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> I was just trying to figure out what the difference is and would EP harm the
> motor ("EP does not meet current D/C warranty requirements")*, whereas
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> > Steve
> > .
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 23:35 GMT
    The term "Extended Performance" doesn't mean sh*t! It's like "New,
Blue Cheer" for the same old detergent.  In order for your manufacturer
to take a change on it, it must pass Society of Automotive Engineers and
American Petroleum Institute's tests:
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/API_MotorOilGuide_2004.pdf I re-posted
the maintenance lube schedule, but this time with what Daimler want for
rates: http://www.billhughes.com/lubeSchedule.pdf Basically the
container must have the API of SL or SM and an SAE viscosity rating for
you temperature area, in a circle emblem.  
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com

> I was just trying to figure out what the difference is and would EP harm the
> motor ("EP does not meet current D/C warranty requirements")*, whereas
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> them.  I have no problem with using "regular" Mobil 1 or dino for that
> matter.  Just inquisitive...wanting to know.
Campbell C Freeman - 02 Jun 2005 00:26 GMT
Both Mobil 1 SuperSyn & Mobile 1 EP  SAE 10W30, both have the API mark of
"API Service SL/CF" in the "circle emblem" of which you speak.

However, Mobil 1 EP does not say "Energy Conserving" in the bottom of the
circle as does Mobil 1 SuperSyn (I knew this;  it is the API SM & ILSAC GF-4
rating certifying & establishing a motor oil as "Energy Conserving").
Mobile 1 SuperSyn does not say API SM, but it does say "Energy Conserving."
It also says: "... meets ILSAC GF-3...".  Both bottles say 10W30 in the
middle of the circle and that is what is called for in my climate:  South
Carolina.

Exxon/Mobil has told me:   "Mobil currently is not willing to sacrifice wear
and durability for improved fuel economy on the Mobil1 Extended Performance
motor oil.
Classic Mobil1 motor oils are API "SM and meets (sic) GF-4 rquirements (sic)
for the
respected viscosities."

>     The term "Extended Performance" doesn't mean sh*t! It's like "New,
> Blue Cheer" for the same old detergent.  In order for your manufacturer
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>> them.  I have no problem with using "regular" Mobil 1 or dino for that
>> matter.  Just inquisitive...wanting to know.
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 02 Jun 2005 01:10 GMT
    The "C" API rating is for diesels, an addition additive to
neutralize surfer and soot, naturally you wouldn't want that in a clean
running gasoline engine.
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> Both Mobil 1 SuperSyn & Mobile 1 EP  SAE 10W30, both have the API mark of
> "API Service SL/CF" in the "circle emblem" of which you speak.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> for the
> respected viscosities."
Coasty - 31 May 2005 23:44 GMT
Try here

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Home/Homepage.aspx

Signature

Coasty
Semper Paratus
(Always Ready)

| Thanks,
|
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
| >> Campbell Freeman
| >> South Carolina
Campbell C Freeman - 01 Jun 2005 00:14 GMT
Thanks,

Yes, I have read all of the text on the Mobil Oil web-site.  No problem with
that.  Or DC really...

I guess it's up to the manufacturer to say yea or nay.  But how do they know
what you use?  I  believe the burden of proof is on you.  I guess it's a
matter if semantics (Merriam Webster On-Line Dictionary:  semantics;
se-man-tics; 1, 2, 3b).

???

> Try here
>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> | >> Campbell Freeman
> | >> South Carolina
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 00:35 GMT
    They know in seconds, just like every HazMat diver, filling out his
transport ticket.
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> Thanks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> ???
Matt Macchiarolo - 01 Jun 2005 00:37 GMT
I'm guessing that since the E-P oil is a "new" product, D-C hasn't
"evaluated" it yet.

> Thanks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>> | >> Campbell Freeman
>> | >> South Carolina
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 00:30 GMT
    And from that site read "Why do you have to change your motor oil
on a regular basis?"
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/Car_Care_FAQs.aspx
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> Try here
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Semper Paratus
> (Always Ready)
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 00:19 GMT
    If you think Mobil one will buy you a new engine, then go with
their stats, but I'm betting I could hear the laughter from here. Be
safe go with the your maintenance schedule:
http://www.billhughes.com/lubeschedule.pdf
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> Thanks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Pardons please.
Campbell C Freeman - 01 Jun 2005 00:36 GMT
I agree and that is what I was saying.  BUT it does not specify a particular
type (dino, synthetic, blend, et al), nor does it say the oil must be "new"
(in your document).  Only the weight and frequency.

>     If you think Mobil one will buy you a new engine, then go with
> their stats, but I'm betting I could hear the laughter from here. Be
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>
>> Pardons please.
Joe Carroll - 01 Jun 2005 21:59 GMT
>I agree and that is what I was saying.  BUT it does not specify a particular
>type (dino, synthetic, blend, et al), nor does it say the oil must be "new"
>(in your document).  Only the weight and frequency.

I'm wondering if the technology exist to monitor the contamination and
let someone know when it's time to change oil based on there
enviromental  conditions and driving habits?
Joe Carroll
2K-TJ

There are some simple truths...And the dogs know what they are."
                                            Joseph Duemer
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 01 Jun 2005 22:13 GMT
    Yes, most large transport companies have their crankcase oils
checked by laboratory analysis, to aid in scheduling regular maintenance
to major engine over haul.
http://www.irvingoilco.com/lubricants/luboilanalysis.htm
       God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/

> There are some simple truths...And the dogs know what they are."
>                                              Joseph Duemer
Coasty - 01 Jun 2005 22:25 GMT
Mercedes and BMW does it that way in fact they do not even have dipsticks
for the engine or transmission anymore.

Signature

Coasty
Semper Paratus
(Always Ready)

| >I agree and that is what I was saying.  BUT it does not specify a particular
| >type (dino, synthetic, blend, et al), nor does it say the oil must be "new"
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
| There are some simple truths...And the dogs know what they are."
|                                             Joseph Duemer
Dave Milne - 01 Jun 2005 22:41 GMT
Are you sure about that ?

Dave Milne, Scotland
'91 Grand Wagoneer, '99 TJ

> Mercedes and BMW does it that way in fact they do not even have dipsticks
> for the engine or transmission anymore.
Joe Carroll - 01 Jun 2005 22:44 GMT
>I'm wondering if the technology exist to monitor the contamination and
>let someone know when it's time to change oil based on there
>enviromental  conditions and driving habits?

I was speaking of on-board monitoring.
Joe Carroll
2K-TJ

There are some simple truths...And the dogs know what they are."
                                            Joseph Duemer
 
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