Car Forum / Jeep / June 2005
OT: Firearms Manufacturer Question
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Patrick Ô¿Ô - 11 Jun 2005 01:28 GMT I have a feeling either Bill, or Nathan Collier will have good info and a good sugestion, but anyone else is welcome to voice their opinion.
I am looking for an AR-15. I have been told by one person that Rock River Arms makes the best AR-15 for the money. He says the RRA is tighter than Bushmaster and Colt. I can get a RRA for the same price as a Bushmaster. Does anyone know if these are as good as he says? I know they make competition pistols that run several thousand dollars, which is more than the quote on the AR. Any info on this matter will be great.
Patrick Ô¿Ô
L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 11 Jun 2005 02:16 GMT Get a Real rifle, a 30-06 rather that puny 7 mm. Maybe a Remington based on a BAR sold for less than four hundred bucks: http://www.chuckhawks.com/remington_7400.htm God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/
> I have a feeling either Bill, or Nathan Collier will have good info and a > good sugestion, but anyone else is welcome to voice their opinion. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Patrick > Ô¿Ô Chad Gore - 11 Jun 2005 03:09 GMT http://www.boycottford.com/Default.asp?id=1370&sid=329189314
> Get a Real rifle, a 30-06 rather that puny 7 mm. Maybe a Remington >based on a BAR sold for less than four hundred bucks: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> Patrick >> Ô¿Ô ////////// Make it the 7mm magnum !
But the bushmaster has proven it's self on and off the battlefield. If you want the Good Bushmaster "civilian M-16", get the X15E2 kit, it runs about 700.00 and you put it together,it's so simple! Get the target model with the fluted barrel. Then buy you a nice 300 yard scope with bullet compensator.
Warning "never install M-16 components into the civilian model" !! It's against the law .
An M1 garand is a good gun also ! 30.06 remington model,if you can find one, and in good shape. LOL
I am opposed to millionaires.......but it would be dangerous to offer me the position. ~Mark Twain
Patrick Ô¿Ô - 11 Jun 2005 03:59 GMT I will be using this as a tactical entry, hostile situation weapon. It will be the .223 caliber, which is the same as the 5.56 NATO. It will have a shorter barrell and also a colapsable (sp?) stock. 30-06 would not be good for searching a house. If I was going to use it as a sniper riffle, I would go with the .308
Patrick Ô¿Ô
> Get a Real rifle, a 30-06 rather that puny 7 mm. Maybe a Remington > based on a BAR sold for less than four hundred bucks: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> Patrick >> Ô¿Ô Jeff Olsen - 11 Jun 2005 04:32 GMT > I will be using this as a tactical entry, hostile situation weapon. It will > be the .223 caliber, which is the same as the 5.56 NATO. It will have a > shorter barrell and also a colapsable (sp?) stock.
>>> I am looking for an AR-15. I have been told by one person that Rock >>> River >>> Arms makes the best AR-15 for the money. He says the RRA is tighter than >>> Bushmaster and Colt. I can get a RRA for the same price as a Bushmaster. >>> Does anyone know if these are as good as he says? I had a Bushmaster for a while that was an excellent rifle. I'd probably buy a Bushy if I were you, because it will be easier to trade off or sell if you change your mind, as well as being assured of compatibility with parts from the biggest maker of AR parts: Bushmaster. And, in an AR intended to be used as you describe, the M4 is the way to go IMHO.
I traded mine off towards a Springfield M1a Bush rifle. That's the shorter, lighter, .308 caliber, M14 copy. I absolutely love that rifle, shoot it all the time. I felt I needed a bigger caliber than .223 for general property defense, as well as "come the revolution" when the religious right tries to take over for real <g>, since i live in the woods and have livestock and there are cougar and bear around.
I will buy another AR if or when uppers in 6.8mm SPC become available. THAT would be useful. An M4 in that caliber would rock. On balance, I feel that the AR platform is too big and clunky to justify spitting out a .22- caliber, 60-grain bullet. I'd rather have a Mini-14, frankly, if I was stuck with .223. Or, as I said above, I think for my need the M1a Bush rifle is superb.
-jeff
Chad Gore - 11 Jun 2005 16:45 GMT http://www.boycottford.com/Default.asp?id=1370&sid=329189314
>I will be using this as a tactical entry, hostile situation weapon. It will >be the .223 caliber, which is the same as the 5.56 NATO. It will have a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >>> Patrick >>> Ô¿Ô ///////////// If you go to bushmaster.com,they have everything you will ever need ! Good luck !! And now back to JEEPING ..........
I am opposed to millionaires.......but it would be dangerous to offer me the position. ~Mark Twain
Billy Ray - 12 Jun 2005 01:30 GMT You are going to use it as an tactical entry weapon? Well then that changes the requirements. You would be well served with a short barreled smg or a shortened shotgun. The smg's generally have a fair rate of fire and accuracy isn't really a requirement as distances to the target are in the range of 5-20 feet. Either choice would be effective.
My preference is a shortened 12 gauge pump. I have found that the shucking sound from chambering a round is often sufficient to cause surrender.
The AR-15 is about 40 inches long and can be unwieldy in enclosed places. The newer M4 with the stock collapsed it is about 30 inches long.
The AR-18S was 22 inches long folded and about 30 inches long extended. We had a few in Vietnam with the 30 round magazines but Howa stopped building for Sterling Armaments for political reasons.
>I will be using this as a tactical entry, hostile situation weapon. It >will be the .223 caliber, which is the same as the 5.56 NATO. It will have [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >>> Patrick >>> Ô¿Ô Coasty - 11 Jun 2005 03:07 GMT 30-06 is for light weights get a mans gun
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/winchester_1886_extralight/
 Signature Coasty Semper Paratus (Always Ready)
>I have a feeling either Bill, or Nathan Collier will have good info and a >good sugestion, but anyone else is welcome to voice their opinion. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Patrick > Ô¿Ô L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 11 Jun 2005 05:33 GMT A friend owns one it's so... pretty, nickel plated looks just like my 30-30 Winchester. http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/redriver/images/CartridgeFigure.html God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/
> 30-06 is for light weights get a mans gun > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Semper Paratus > (Always Ready) Coasty - 11 Jun 2005 10:21 GMT I shot a Thompson Contender with a 45-70 barrel kick like a mule I would rather pull both barrels on my 12 gauge.
 Signature Coasty Semper Paratus (Always Ready)
> A friend owns one it's so... pretty, nickel plated looks just like > my 30-30 Winchester. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> Semper Paratus >> (Always Ready) Rusted - 11 Jun 2005 22:45 GMT It is intereseting to compare the ballistics of teh 45-70 to a 30-06.
http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/ballistics.htm
The good ol '06 has much more energy and velocity than the 45. And much less drop. At 500 yards the 45 has dropped 18-25 feet. It sure would be hard to hit anything out at that distance. I think the 45 would compare to a bowling ball better than anything. HA
> 30-06 is for light weights get a mans gun > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> Patrick >> Ô¿Ô L.W.(=?iso-8859-1?Q?=DFill?=) Hughes III - 11 Jun 2005 23:21 GMT Except it was around right after the Civil War, when everything else was cap ball muzzle loaded. I sure you see a couple of old westerns where the Sharps: http://www.emf-company.com/1874-sharps-rifle.htm or Henry were mentioned: http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/ballistics/sandyhook03.htm My ROTC training was with an 1903 springfield 30-06, where we could raised the sight about three inches off the breach: http://froogle.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=32724188 God Bless America, ßill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/
> It is intereseting to compare the ballistics of teh 45-70 to a 30-06. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > hard to hit anything out at that distance. I think the 45 would compare to > a bowling ball better than anything. HA Nathan W. Collier - 11 Jun 2005 03:37 GMT >I have a feeling either Bill, or Nathan Collier will have good info and a >good sugestion
:-) thank you.
> I am looking for an AR-15. I have been told by one person that Rock River > Arms makes the best AR-15 for the money. out of curiosity, is this the same individual who is trying to sell you one?
> He says the RRA is tighter than Bushmaster and Colt. a rock river is a fine rifle, but given the choice i would buy the bushmaster. ive owned a half dozen colt ar15s and will never own another one. ive owned 2 bushmasters (still have 1) and it is in my opinion the finest ar15 ever built. after literally tens of thousands of rounds it has _never_ jammed. not once. when i take it out i shoot 1000 rounds and in one day i shot nearly 2000 rounds without stopping to clean it at any point in between and it never failed to feed or fire. my first bushmaster jammed a few times but i finally determined it was a defective US surplus magazine. after throwing it away i never jammed that rifle either and i eventually sold it to one of my brothers.
THAT SAID, what is the purpose? my AR is fun to plink with. it is the most accurate automatic rifle ive ever owned. golf balls at 100 yards (on a dark background) are easy to pick off. prairie dogs are easy to pick off at most any range where you can still see them. if it were a matter of personal protection though, id much rather have my winchester defender 1300 http://7slotgrille.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=766 loaded with buckshot.
 Signature Nathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com
Patrick Ô¿Ô - 11 Jun 2005 04:11 GMT >>I have a feeling either Bill, or Nathan Collier will have good info and a >>good sugestion [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > out of curiosity, is this the same individual who is trying to sell you > one? Yes, he is a dealer and will sell me any brand I want, he said it is up to me, he just thinks RRA is a better weapon.
>> He says the RRA is tighter than Bushmaster and Colt. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > 1300 http://7slotgrille.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=766 loaded with > buckshot. It will be for tactical entry, also building clearance and house searches. I have a Glock as my duty and a baby Glock for a backup. The AR is when it all hits the fan. I want to be able to do a headshot from some distance, without hitting anything else. It will have a colapsable (sp?) stock, and a shorter barrel, haven't decided on length yet, probably around 14 - 16 inches. I will go with the .223 which is the same as the 5.56 NATO. If it was going to be a sniper setup, I would go with a 20" heavy barrel .308, but I am right now going to try to keep the weight and size down.
The RRA he quoted is 800, which is the M-4 style step barrel, with the removable handle. The Bushmaster is 785, M-4 without the removeable handle. It will be loaded with teflon coated ammunition, which is standard issue duty ammo. If it gets really bad, we have several .308 M-14's which are military surplus, and also 2 M-16's in the department. We are qualifying with the M-14's tomorrow, and I will also use someone elses AR-15 to quallify with, as well as a M-16, just in case.
Patrick Ô¿Ô
Patrick Ô¿Ô - 11 Jun 2005 04:32 GMT BTW forgot to mention that I got a holster to put on the rollbar for my Glock 22. I will post links when I get time to do the install. Do you like it above your head like that? I was thinking about putting mine near the windshield.
Also the guy said the parts for the Bushmaster fit the RRA, so I can buy replacement parts and accessories made for the Bushmaster
Patrick Ô¿Ô
>>>I have a feeling either Bill, or Nathan Collier will have good info and >>>a good sugestion [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Patrick > Ô¿Ô Nathan W. Collier - 11 Jun 2005 05:08 GMT > BTW forgot to mention that I got a holster to put on the rollbar for my > Glock 22. I will post links when I get time to do the install. sweet, what holster did you get?
> Do you like it above your head like that? I was thinking about putting > mine near the windshield. i played with different positions and prefer it as is http://7slotgrille.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=779 for several reasons. its very convenient, anyone approaching me (while sitting in the jeep) cannot see it in that location, etc.
> Also the guy said the parts for the Bushmaster fit the RRA, so I can buy > replacement parts and accessories made for the Bushmaster that right there should tell you something about bushmaster. factory support/parts availability is also second to none.
 Signature Nathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com
Patrick Ô¿Ô - 11 Jun 2005 05:13 GMT >> BTW forgot to mention that I got a holster to put on the rollbar for my >> Glock 22. I will post links when I get time to do the install. > > sweet, what holster did you get? I got the Uncle Mike's Super Belt Slide Holster. It is Nylon, and looks like it will fit around the larger rollbar covers. I say larger because the 05 is a larger diameter than my 02 X was.
Patrick Ô¿Ô
Nathan W. Collier - 11 Jun 2005 05:05 GMT > Yes, he is a dealer and will sell me any brand I want, he said it is up to > me, he just thinks RRA is a better weapon. worth mentioning, its possible (probable) that he pays less for the rra and can make more even by selling it to you at the same price. the rra is a fine rifle and im sure it would serve you very well, but as ar's go nothing has ever gained my confidence like my bushmaster http://7slotgrille.com/images/forumpics/nathan/3.jpg :-)
> It will be for tactical entry ah, i forgot that you were a peace officer. thank you for all that you do.
> I want to be able to do a headshot from some distance bushmaster. :-) up to 300 meters im as accurate with my bushmaster as i am with my scoped 300 ultra, and can hit consistently and rapidly.
 Signature Nathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com
Patrick Ô¿Ô - 11 Jun 2005 05:15 GMT Thanks for the info, I will probably follow everyone jumping over the cliff and get a bushmaster. Now to come up with some money. Guess I could sell my Tec-9.
Patrick Ô¿Ô
>> Yes, he is a dealer and will sell me any brand I want, he said it is up >> to me, he just thinks RRA is a better weapon. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > bushmaster. :-) up to 300 meters im as accurate with my bushmaster as i > am with my scoped 300 ultra, and can hit consistently and rapidly. Nathan W. Collier - 11 Jun 2005 05:22 GMT > I will probably follow everyone jumping over the cliff and get a > bushmaster. you really cant go wrong.
> Now to come up with some money. tell me about it. my next rifle will be this bushmaster http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/308/bcwa2s30816iz.asp in .308. its getting harder and harder to spend $1500 without the wifey noticing.
:-)
 Signature Nathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com
Patrick Ô¿Ô - 11 Jun 2005 05:37 GMT >> I will probably follow everyone jumping over the cliff and get a >> bushmaster. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > its getting harder and harder to spend $1500 without the wifey noticing. > :-) I believe I will go with one similar to this: http://www.bushmaster.com/le/weapons/bushmaster_xm15_e2s_m4a2_carbine.htm . Now to decide if I want the 4 position selector switch or just simi-auto.
Patrick Ô¿Ô
Brian - 11 Jun 2005 19:53 GMT > It will be for tactical entry, also building clearance and house searches. For this purpose, why not get an MP-5, in the same caliber as your pistols? Leave the long gun for outdoor work.
B
 Signature Brian Heller
It is easier to tame wild beasts than to conquer the human mind.
Patrick Ô¿Ô - 12 Jun 2005 01:55 GMT One reason is the MP5 is a submachine gun. For me to own it, I would have to pay the ATF $200 for a submachine gun tax on the weapon. The Bushmaster AR-15 M4 A3 is simi-auto. I qualified for the .223 round AR-15 as well as the M-16 and the .308 M-14 today. I can get the Bushmaster for around 800. Forgot to mention that it will be an all purpose weapon for searching wooded areas, and fields. I qualified with the 14.5 inch barrel with shots made from the 100 yard line without a scope. I feel confortable using the AR. The M-14 got heavy at the end which was at the 15 yard line, but still did good with it. Compared to the M-14, the AR felt like a featherweight.
Patrick Ô¿Ô
>> It will be for tactical entry, also building clearance and house >> searches. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > B Jeff Olsen - 12 Jun 2005 06:54 GMT > I qualified for the .223 round AR-15 as well as > the M-16 and the .308 M-14 today. I can get the Bushmaster for around 800. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Patrick > Ô¿Ô I wish you could try an M1a Bush Rifle (no longer sold by Springfield Arms, but the Scout Squad is the same thing basically). It is much lighter and handier than a full-size M14. On the other hand, for entry work the short AR is hard to beat, and against people ONLY the .223 is an effective cartridge.
-jeff
Will Honea - 12 Jun 2005 08:40 GMT > > I qualified for the .223 round AR-15 as well as > > the M-16 and the .308 M-14 today. I can get the Bushmaster for around 800. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > AR is hard to beat, and against people ONLY the .223 is an effective > cartridge. LOL. Check with the Colorado Springs PD about how effective the .223 was against some loose Bison a few weeks back. But that's a question of the right tool, etc. In a lot of ways, the old .45 Thompson is still pretty hard to beat.
 Signature Will Honea
Nathan W. Collier - 12 Jun 2005 20:17 GMT > Check with the Colorado Springs PD about how effective the .223 > was against some loose Bison a few weeks back. i watched them shoot a bison down on the crow reservation with a 300 magnum. he was standing there eating and you could see the explosion in his shoulder when it hit. instead of falling over, the bison reached down for another bite. they repeated the process and he continued to eat. it took 3 shots before he fell over and even then he continued to chew for a second before dying.
 Signature Nathan W. Collier http://7SlotGrille.com http://UtilityOffRoad.com
Will Honea - 13 Jun 2005 20:01 GMT > > Check with the Colorado Springs PD about how effective the .223 > > was against some loose Bison a few weeks back. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > before he fell over and even then he continued to chew for a second before > dying. I'm not belittling the local PD, but this was one for the books. 5 bison got loose while being unloaded at a local packing plant. They wandered into someone's yard and the cops were trying to 'contain' them. According to the police report, one of the bulls looked like he was charging so they opened up. 180+ rounds later, the 'stampede' was contained.
I looked at the videos my daughter shot for a local TV station and you had a bunch of cops milling around with no apparent experience around livestock trying to figure out what to do. When the bull took a couple of steps in the direction of the disturbance (the most lethargic charge you could imagine) they used the only thing they had available (although their 9mm's, shotguns, even the tasers would probably have been better). A case of the unprepared meeting the unexpected - but how many police academies have a lesson on herding buffalo?
Big furor about all the shooting. I suspect these poor 'buffalo hunters' will be the butt of much station humor for many years to come.
 Signature Will Honea
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