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Car Forum / Jeep / February 2006Jeep Cherokee ABS problem
Good morning I may have a problem with my ABS and I'd appreciate any suggestions. I have a 2001 Jeep Cherokee Classic which I bought in August from a garage which is not a specialist Jeep dealer. It has ABS, but while driving after a recent heavy snowfall I got the impression that the ABS wasn't working. I tested the brakes to check what the grip and handling was like, and as I braked progressively, I got to a point where the wheels started to lock and slide but I couldn't feel the vibration on the brake pedal which you'd normally expect to feel as the ABS kicks in. The braking performance was more like what you'd expect from a vehicle with decent brakes and decent winter tires but no ABS. I took it in to the (non-specialist) dealer today who tested the ABS, said it was in perfect working order and charged me $35 for the advice. They said there were "no codes" on the ABS, whatever that means, which is presumably a Good Thing. I can think of three possible explanations: 1. My jeep is in perfect working order and I'm a silly neurotic git. 2. The ABS is working but it's so poorly designed that it's barely possible to tell the difference between ABS and no-ABS. 3. There is a subtle fault with the ABS which the non-specialist dealer hasn't picked up. For example, is it possible that the ABS is in working order but there is some fault with the sensor which tells the ABS when to kick in? I realise that the obvious solution is to take the vehicle to a specialist Jeep dealer for a second opinion, but I'm in a remote part of rural Newfoundland and I don't think there is one within two hours' drive of here. So I'd appreciate any suggestions from this group. Thanks. Peter did pass the time by typing: > I can think of three possible explanations: > > 1. My jeep is in perfect working order and I'm a silly neurotic git. :) > 2. The ABS is working but it's so poorly designed that it's barely > possible to tell the difference between ABS and no-ABS. read on. > 3. There is a subtle fault with the ABS which the non-specialist dealer > hasn't picked up. For example, is it possible that the ABS is in > working order but there is some fault with the sensor which tells the > ABS when to kick in? Slowly depressing the brake as you did will not trigger ABS. ABS on Jeeps is for emergency stops when you apply the brakes quickly. The system they use isn't like the luxury cars where ABS is part of a stability control system.. BMW etc. The easiest way to test ABS is find a dirt or gravel road, get up a bit of speed (25mph or so) then stomp on the brakes, or on snow, try stopping a bit faster. Failing wheel sensors can cause this but generally one goes bad or gets out of calibration before the other. That results in ABS kicking in as you come to a normal stop. The other problem Jeep ABS has is garbage/water intrusion at the ABS computer connector. I have to remove/clean/reinstall mine about once every year. Good contact cleaner and dielectric grease (sparkplug boot grease) is all you need.  Signature-- DougW -- 93 ZJ 4.0 http://members.cox.net/wilsond HESCO Supercharger - 300W IASCA Stereo - Edelbrock IAS Shocks Gibson Exhaust - rear DCpower - custom gauge install - Stillen Rotors Banks Header - and BEER, in the fridge! [snip] > Failing wheel sensors can cause this but generally one goes bad or > gets out of calibration before the other. That results in ABS kicking > in as you come to a normal stop. Ahhh. Thanks for the clue. My `96 XJ's ABS kicks frequently (LF wheel, methinks) when braking over road divots, cracks in the road or the occasional tree shadow. Lee Ayrton did pass the time by typing: > [snip] >> Failing wheel sensors can cause this but generally one goes bad or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > methinks) when braking over road divots, cracks in the road or the > occasional tree shadow. But before you replace sensors, clean the ABS computer connector. SignatureDougW Thanks for those suggestions guys, I will try them Good afternoon. I'm just posting a followup to our discussion about my Jeep Cherokee ABS problem because I know you guys really, really care about whether I got it to work or not. Most of you suggested stomping hard instead of gently on the brakes. After the next snowfall I tried this, but whether I stomped gently or hard, it made no difference, there seemed to be no response of any kind from the ABS. I then read the section about ABS in my glovebox owner's guide (should have RTFM to begin with, I suppose) and it said that the ABS light should come on for a couple of seconds when you turn on the ignition. It isn't lighting up at switch on or at any other time, suggesting there really is a fault and it isn't just my imagination. I opened a box of electrics under the hood, looking for clues, and it was full of relays and fuses. There was a diagram inside the lid showing what worked what, and there appeared to be three gaps in the box where there should have been two fuses and a relay for the ABS. Great, I thought, I've found the fault. My joy was short lived though, because when I tried to insert the ABS fuses in the places where I thought they should be, there were no connectors in the slots and the fuses just wiggled around rather aimlessly. So I'm wondering if the fusebox design was modified for the Jeep Cherokee 2001 but someone forgot to update the diagram. I was unable to get a workshop manual for this model and date at our local Canadian Tire but I'm going to try to order one over the Internet. It looks like my jeep is heading for a date with Jeeps-R-Us to be fixed, but if anyone has any further comments / suggestions I'd be grateful for them, bearing in mind that I live in Lourdes, Western Newfoundland and there is no Jeeps-R-Us around here. Doug W - you suggested cleaning the ABS computer connector. I wasn't able to identify it under the hood, but if you can give me an idea where it is and what it looks like I can try that. Thanks. We do appreciate follow ups, you are right there. Umm, are you 'sure' you actually 'have' ABS???? Doesn't sound like it to me..... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Good afternoon. I'm just posting a followup to our discussion about my > Jeep Cherokee ABS problem because I know you guys really, really care [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Thanks. Are you sure your model is supposed to have ABS? Is it listed on your build sheet? You can get a build sheet from your (no so) local Jeep dealership PARTS department or via Jeep customer Assistance via e-mail (both at No Charge) http://www.jeep.com/universal/J/index.jsp?actionURL=/wccs/brand_forms/us/input.j sp&titleStr=Contact+Jeep&leftNavURL=/wccs/brand_forms/us/templates/J/left.jsp&fr anchise=J&familyStr=brand&family=brand&appStr=wccs&prefix > Good afternoon. I'm just posting a followup to our discussion about my > Jeep Cherokee ABS problem because I know you guys really, really care [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Thanks. It is easy to find out. Just look at the brake reservoir and follow the lines from there. If they go to this big pump looking thing sitting on the fender instead of to a simple combination valve, you have ABS. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Are you sure your model is supposed to have ABS? > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > > > Thanks. Ditto. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > It is easy to find out. Just look at the brake reservoir and follow the > lines from there. If they go to this big pump looking thing sitting on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Are you sure your model is supposed to have ABS? > > Is it listed on your build sheet? Thank you for that, I was assuming it does have ABS because it's listed in the owner's manual but now I'm having doubts. (Although the last garage I took it to claimed they had tested it and it works, but I'm having doubts about that too.). I have asked for a build sheet as you suggested. I contacted the nearest Jeep dealer who is, as I feared, 2 hours drive away and what's more they are only open weekdays, not weekends, so it's virtually impossible for me to get the vehicle there and I will have to try to fix this myself. I sent you, at your listed e-address, a few PDF pages on the '01 XJ ABS system. Follow Mike's advice for a visual examination of the brake limes from the master cylinder. If you don't know what to look for see figure 11 in the PDF. Please let us know.. >> Are you sure your model is supposed to have ABS? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > virtually impossible for me to get the vehicle there and I will have to > try to fix this myself. depending on n your year it may fall under a recall > Good afternoon. I'm just posting a followup to our discussion about my > Jeep Cherokee ABS problem because I know you guys really, really care [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Thanks. Good evening. Thank you all for your interest in, and help with, my ABS problem. Here is an exchange of correspondence which took place today with the dealer who sold me the vehicle. It's pretty self explanatory and as you can see, there is an ongoing situation here.... Dear Mr Newfoundland Used Car Dealer (not his real name) Further to our recent exchange of e-mails about the problems I was having with my jeep's ABS, I have some news which is not welcome to either of us - it doesn't appear to have any ABS. I am still waiting for DaimlerChrysler Canada to send me the official build sheet for the vehicle, but from my examination of the electrical and braking systems, and comparing them with the relevant diagrams from the sections of the owners handbook and workshop manual which describe the ABS, I am 99% certain that this vehicle does not have, and has never had, ABS. You are of course welcome to examine it yourself to confirm that. Could I remind you that I bought it on the understanding that it did have ABS, and I still have the ****** Motors vehicle description which states that. If this is the case, it is a little surprising that your mechanic examined the (non-existent) ABS on 13 January and found it to be "operating normal" but maybe the less said about that the better. What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me to have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD and airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle safety for the children. She is not going to be at all pleased about this, in fact, I am hoping to get this fixed before she finds out about it. As far as I can see there are two options: 1. Have ABS fitted to the vehicle at your expense. I am waiting to hear from DaimlerChrysler Canada to see if this is possible. It should be possible, although it may be expensive. As I am otherwise happy with the vehicle, this would probably be my preferred option. 2. A full refund of the purchase price and associated expenses, either in cash or set against the purchase of another Humber Motors vehicle which does have ABS and the other safety features I have mentioned. This should include: 19,540.50 Purchase price 885.50 Service contract 568.45 Fitting of four winter tires 159.95 Corrosion free treament 76.02 Winter maintenance service 200.00 Replacement of water pump 35.65 Examination of the ABS Needless to say, I am not very happy about this. Regards Peter ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Peter I`ve spoke to the mechanic he advises that you stop in to the shop anytime between 8:00 a.m and 5:00 p.m so they can point out the components of ABS system regards **** ******* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK... but he'll have some difficulty if the components aren't there. Please see forwarded e-mail from DaimlerChrysler (which arrived this afternoon) who seem to think that ABS was not fitted to this vehicle at the time of manufacture. But I'll bring it in anyway - probably Friday afternoon. Regards, Peter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear ** ****: We have received your email of January 19, 2006 regarding your 2001 Jeep Cherokee. We note that, at the time of manufacturing, your vehicle was equipped with Power Front Disc/Rear Drum Brakes. If you are seeking information on having ABS installed on your vehicle please contact your local DaimlerChrysler dealership (City Motors Chrysler # 709-637-1000) as they are equipped with any technical information. Further, with respect to obtaining a service manual, DaimlerChrysler Canada has recruited the services of an independent company to distribute owners and service manuals. As such, please accept our referral to contact Resolve Canada at 1-800-387-1143 to place your order. Resolve will charge a fee for their services. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to review this matter with you. Peter, This is what an ABS unit will look like if you have one. The pix are of my 2002 WJ but your 2001 XJ should be similar if not identical. http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2113025862 Good evening. Thank you all for your interest in, and help with, my ABS problem. Here is an exchange of correspondence which took place today with the dealer who sold me the vehicle. It's pretty self explanatory and as you can see, there is an ongoing situation here.... Dear Mr Newfoundland Used Car Dealer (not his real name) Further to our recent exchange of e-mails about the problems I was having with my jeep's ABS, I have some news which is not welcome to either of us - it doesn't appear to have any ABS. I am still waiting for DaimlerChrysler Canada to send me the official build sheet for the vehicle, but from my examination of the electrical and braking systems, and comparing them with the relevant diagrams from the sections of the owners handbook and workshop manual which describe the ABS, I am 99% certain that this vehicle does not have, and has never had, ABS. You are of course welcome to examine it yourself to confirm that. Could I remind you that I bought it on the understanding that it did have ABS, and I still have the ****** Motors vehicle description which states that. If this is the case, it is a little surprising that your mechanic examined the (non-existent) ABS on 13 January and found it to be "operating normal" but maybe the less said about that the better. What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me to have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD and airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle safety for the children. She is not going to be at all pleased about this, in fact, I am hoping to get this fixed before she finds out about it. As far as I can see there are two options: 1. Have ABS fitted to the vehicle at your expense. I am waiting to hear from DaimlerChrysler Canada to see if this is possible. It should be possible, although it may be expensive. As I am otherwise happy with the vehicle, this would probably be my preferred option. 2. A full refund of the purchase price and associated expenses, either in cash or set against the purchase of another Humber Motors vehicle which does have ABS and the other safety features I have mentioned. This should include: 19,540.50 Purchase price 885.50 Service contract 568.45 Fitting of four winter tires 159.95 Corrosion free treament 76.02 Winter maintenance service 200.00 Replacement of water pump 35.65 Examination of the ABS Needless to say, I am not very happy about this. Regards Peter ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello Peter I`ve spoke to the mechanic he advises that you stop in to the shop anytime between 8:00 a.m and 5:00 p.m so they can point out the components of ABS system regards **** ******* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK... but he'll have some difficulty if the components aren't there. Please see forwarded e-mail from DaimlerChrysler (which arrived this afternoon) who seem to think that ABS was not fitted to this vehicle at the time of manufacture. But I'll bring it in anyway - probably Friday afternoon. Regards, Peter. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear ** ****: We have received your email of January 19, 2006 regarding your 2001 Jeep Cherokee. We note that, at the time of manufacturing, your vehicle was equipped with Power Front Disc/Rear Drum Brakes. If you are seeking information on having ABS installed on your vehicle please contact your local DaimlerChrysler dealership (City Motors Chrysler # 709-637-1000) as they are equipped with any technical information. Further, with respect to obtaining a service manual, DaimlerChrysler Canada has recruited the services of an independent company to distribute owners and service manuals. As such, please accept our referral to contact Resolve Canada at 1-800-387-1143 to place your order. Resolve will charge a fee for their services. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to review this matter with you. Not that it has any bearing on your dispute with the dealer but depending on the road surfaces that you drive on ABS might not be a safety feature. ABS was derived from airliner technology and was designed for braking in a straight forward direction on clean, wet surfaces. On loose surfaces it will considerably lengthen your stopping distance. As for your dispute with the dealer (which, one hopes, is simply a mistake on their part), is there some sort of consumer advocate office in your neck of the woods? In some states in your Neighbor To The South there are governmental offices that specifically deal with automobile sales and repairs. [snip] > What do you propose to do about this? It is abolutely essential for me > to have a vehicle with a full set of safety features including ABS, 4WD > and airbags, not least because we have three small children who will be > travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle [snip] This news group never ceases to entertain. Imagine a used car dealer, offering for sale a vehicle with ABS installed, which didn't in fact have that system! In Peter's "Neighbor To The South" things like this can usually be taken care of in small claims court, which is a service offered by the judicial branch of county government. Although the full amount of the vehicle is probably beyond their jurisdiction, having ABS fitted to the vehicle would not be. You sue them in small claims court, to have ABS installed, or the value of the ABS refunded. The existence of fraud, in "the Humber Motors vehicle description which states that" ABS was included, prejudices things in Peter's favor. The attempt by the mechanic to cover up the fraud practically guarantees that the judge will grant some form of relief. One has to be realistic though. The dealer will probably decide that installation of ABS is either beyond his capabilities, or too much trouble to be worth it. He is going to resist this option. The most that you can reasonably hope for, is a partial refund, whatever the ABS is deemed to be worth, ordered by the judge. The dealer may offer to buy the vehicle back, but in most small claims jurisdictions that amount would be too much for a judge to order it. Practically speaking, this means that you have to come to a mutually agreeable arrangement with the dealer, whether it happens under the supervision of the court or not. Expect to pay for whatever use you have made of the vehicle to date too. Another warning is in order. Once you decide to go to court, things rarely turn out the way you expect, especially if you show up unprepared. My personal opinion, is that you are blowing things way out of proportion, and that ABS is not the great "safety feature" that you imagine it to be. You were however offered it, and are entitled to some relief from this situation. Earle > Not that it has any bearing on your dispute with the dealer but > depending on the road surfaces that you drive on ABS might not be a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > travelling in the vehicle, and my wife is meticulous about vehicle > [snip] > My personal opinion, is that you are blowing things way out of proportion, > and that ABS is not the great "safety feature" that you imagine it to be. > You were however offered it, and are entitled to some relief from this > situation. > > Earle Yes, I agree that ABS has its limitations. However, I think part of its usefulness is taking the human error factor out of difficult situations. For example, I know what I'm supposed to do in the event of a skid: ease off then pump the brakes, steer in the direction of the skid etc. But despite knowing that, I remember what I actually did a few years ago when I got into a really bad skid: froze like a lemon, jammed my foot hard on the brake and locked the steering wheel, and stayed like that until the vehicle came to a stop. Instinctive reaction. That's where ABS would have helped. If I can't come to an agreement with the dealership I think I'll pay to have ABS installed myself, then try to get a refund of as great a portion of the cost of it as I can. ---snippy--- > If I can't come to an agreement with the dealership I think I'll pay to > have ABS installed myself, then try to get a refund of as great a > portion of the cost of it as I can. There may be some sticker shock when you try to have ABS installed. Afaik, it was never sold as an add-on kit, because of lack of real demand. It is not like air conditioning, that you can get installed fairly cheap on almost any vehicle. The installer would have to buy all the individual parts, as spares, and that is not going to be cheap. Earle If you insist on ABS, you are likely going to need a different Jeep. Retrofitting without causing untold damage would be really expensive if not outright impossible. Could you imaging the monkey that said your ABS was working perfect ripping out all your axles and brakes, re-plumbing the brakes while knowing enough to hook up a new computer system into it and to each wheel? Yikes..... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > > My personal opinion, is that you are blowing things way out of proportion, > > and that ABS is not the great "safety feature" that you imagine it to be. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > have ABS installed myself, then try to get a refund of as great a > portion of the cost of it as I can. >>My personal opinion, is that you are blowing things way out of proportion, >>and that ABS is not the great "safety feature" that you imagine it to be. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > stayed like that until the vehicle came to a stop. Instinctive > reaction. That's where ABS would have helped. Not to flog a dead horse, but the utility of ABS depends entirely on what the road surface is. For a hard surface in a straight line it should help. On loose surfaces you can slide and slide and slide. Worse, when it works correctly it can startle an unprepared driver who will back off the throbbing brake pedal, extending the stopping distance even farther. Here's a mediocre cite: <URL:http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/TirePresFinal/FEA/TPMS_App_B.html> Quoting: > Second, as shown on pages V-82 to V-85, the agency has not found a statistically significant overall fatality benefit for ABS. As a matter of fact, in the two most recent anti-lock brake evaluations by Framer and Hertz, the only statistically significant findings were that fatalities increased with ABS in certain situations A year or so back there was a news story here about a couple that slid off a cliff on a mountain trail. It was speculated here that their ABS system allowed them to skid off what should have been a navigable turn. IIRC a sheriff reported that the Jeep "just fell from the sky". If my wife's car had come without Antilock Brake System, I would have consider myself the luckiest man in the world. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Yes, I agree that ABS has its limitations. However, I think part of > its usefulness is taking the human error factor out of difficult [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > have ABS installed myself, then try to get a refund of as great a > portion of the cost of it as I can. ABS is not going to be an inexpensive retrofit. ABS computer module, pump, wheel speed sensors/tone rings (which may require new axles), wiring, possibly a new ECM. I agree with Mike R. on this. And the dealership is going to fight you every step of the way. If any paperwork from the dealership indicates the presence of ABS and in fact it does not have ABS, you'd probably have a case, espciailly now since the service department has confirmed on paper the existence of ABS. Have you confirmed whether or not it has ABS? I might have missed the post if you did. Have you brought it in to have them examine it? Personal opinions on ABS notwithstanding, the case here is the dealership advertised and informed you that the vehicle has a feature which presumable increased its value, when it in fact does not have that feature, in which case the dealership should shoulder some liability. But be prepared for a fight. >> My personal opinion, is that you are blowing things way out of >> proportion, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > have ABS installed myself, then try to get a refund of as great a > portion of the cost of it as I can. They got their nickname as $tealerships 'honestly'.... LOL! Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Good evening. Thank you all for your interest in, and help with, my > ABS problem. Here is an exchange of correspondence which took place [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > Canada has recruited the services of an independent company to > distribute owner send me your vin and i can run a options list to see if abs was one > Good evening. Thank you all for your interest in, and help with, my > ABS problem. Here is an exchange of correspondence which took place [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > Canada has recruited the services of an independent company to > distribute owner Good evening. Here is the latest news in the saga of my Cherokee ABS problem. I took my jeep into the dealership where I bought it today, for the mechanic to inspect it and decide whether it does, or does not, have ABS fitted. I was expecting a prolonged agument with the mechanic along the lines of "That's the ABS", "No, that's a spark plug", "Well that must be the ABS then", "No, that's the fanbelt" so I went along armed with diagrams of what a jeep ABS should, and should not, look like. However, it was fortunately not necessary and the whole thing was quite painless. The vehicle was inspected by their No. 2 mechanic (not the guy who looked at it three weeks ago and told me the ABS was working perfectly), he admitted after inspecting it for 2 minutes that it didn't have ABS, the salesman was very apologetic, they are going to speak to the dealership owner and let me know on Monday what they are proposing to do to put things right. I'll let you know how it turns out. I really appreciate all the help from this newsgroup, Billy Ray in particular, and it just goes to show the advantage of like minded people putting their heads and thoughts together. Thanks. I would consider myself one of the luckiest men on earth if my newest car came without Antilock Brake System! I know for a fact that in extreme fear, I was able feather my brakes enough to bring her back to maximum traction, without panicking. God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Good evening. Here is the latest news in the saga of my Cherokee ABS > problem. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > particular, and it just goes to show the advantage of like minded > people putting their heads and thoughts together. Thanks. You need to take it out on a dirt or snow covered road and while going along at a good rate of speed STOMP hard on the brakes. You should feel the pulsations of the ABS cycling on and off through the brake pedal. By "progressively" applying the brakes you effectively prevented their engagement. Older drivers may know how to pump the brakes when stopping on slippery pavement to avoid locking the wheels and causing a skid. But when it comes to anti-lock brakes, the name of the game is "stomp and steer." > Good morning > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > drive of here. So I'd appreciate any suggestions from this group. > Thanks. Hi Peter, In order to prove your Antilock Brake System works you must choose someplace where you will not hit anything like a large empty parking lot. Then drive at the speed you would be traveling through that lot, then pretend you're a complete idiot, and slam on the brakes hard like in a panic, and don't release any as if you had a brain and wanted to regain control, and working you should have no brakes, until well after the object you pretend to keep from hitting. Like now you will have to drive around it, as if you don't have brakes, because you don't! God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O mailto:LWHughes3rd@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/ > Good morning > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > drive of here. So I'd appreciate any suggestions from this group. > Thanks. |
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