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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / May 2006i think my discovery is dead
Hi Folks Just driving home in the discovery tonight (300tdi 1995 auto) maintained regardless of cost. I even spent out on it yesterday, having new discs and pads fitted to the rear. Anyway, about 6 miles from home , already covered about 20 miles, I noticed a lack of acceleration while pulling out of a junction, hmmm ,strange I thought , took it nice and steady and then noticed a bit of smoke coming out the back looked to be grey in colour. I pulled over and had a quick look under the bonnet, nothing obvious so I carried on. The smoke out the back was now worse and the power was down even more. As I arrived outside the house I switched off but the engine kept on running. Worse than this it, decided that it was going to rev itself to hell and back ( I have never seen the rev meter go that far round before) and smoke out the entire street, that much smoke that a neighbour came over to see if I was OK and did I want them to call the fire brigade out. The discover has about 115000 miles on the clock now and like I say, since I have owned it for the last 35000 miles I have had everything checked ,serviced, and replaced when needed and sometimes just to be on the safe side. So my question is, 1)where do I start to look for the problem, does it sound to you folks like a head gasket problem. 2) if I to turn the key and start it up and it goes into super high rev mode even with the key out, how the hell do I stop it fast. I'm just going now to have a look at the coolant to see if its full of oil. Many thanks for your help. GGJ a quick update I have just had a look at the coolant and it looks to be oil free. I half expected it to be mixed with oil, i know that this is not exactly a high tech check. GGJ >a quick update > I have just had a look at the coolant and it looks to be oil free. > I half expected it to be mixed with oil, i know that this is not exactly a > high tech check. > GGJ I seem to recall something about this happening when oil starts feeding into the engine and it fuels itself on oil, hence the runaway as there are no controls over it Can anyone help me out here? BTW - Where are you Gary? Si >>a quick update >> I have just had a look at the coolant and it looks to be oil free. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >BTW - Where are you Gary? sounds like it. can happen if the sump gets pressurised by e.g. a head gasket leak - oil blown into intake, through that tube they helpfully put there for the purpose, revs increase, pressurise more, etc. this is the most likely runaway - have you checked the dipstick? any oil on it? The best way of stopping it is to block the intake, but to do that you have to have access to it. You can sometimes do it by putting it in top gear, standing on the brakes (not handbrake) and letting the clutch in (steadily, don't jump off it or you might rip the engine out), but that might just add a burnt-out clutch to your woes. I doubt the engine will have survived this unscathed - you at least need to lift the head and probably replace the gasket.  SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine... War is hell" Gen. Sherman (1820-1891) Attr. words in Address at Michigan Military Academy, 19 June 1879. || The best way of stopping it is to block the intake, but to do that || you have to have access to it. You can sometimes do it by putting || it in top gear, standing on the brakes (not handbrake) and letting || the clutch in (steadily, don't jump off it or you might rip the || engine out), but that might just add a burnt-out clutch to your woes. Not that easy - it's an automatic. SignatureRich ============================== I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one. >|| The best way of stopping it is to block the intake, but to do that >|| you have to have access to it. You can sometimes do it by putting [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Not that easy - it's an automatic. yer right. in that case, you have to try and block the inlet. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young / In a world of magnets and miracles / Our thoughts strayed constantly and without boundary / The ringing of the Division bell had begun. Pink Floyd (1994) > I seem to recall something about this happening when oil starts feeding > into [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Si I'm in sunny Norfolk, well it was today anyway, then it got very foggy and smelly when the disco went nuts. GGJ >> I seem to recall something about this happening when oil starts feeding >> into [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > smelly when the disco went nuts. > GGJ well, if you're stuck i've got a v8 auto sitting on the drive doing nothing- we're in kent Si The last engine I heard of doing that was a R*****t tdci when it was overfilled with oil, started running on its own innards and blew itself to smithereens. Assuming that you have not just topped up the oil you need to check the oil level first. If this is OK, check the crankcase breathers, make sure that the engine has not pumped its sump into the air intake, check the inlet hose for lots of oil. BEFORE you start the engine again, make sure the intercooler is clear of oil or it may just rev itself to death again,possibly with a catastrophic conrod failure etc. because the fuel is regulated by the diesel pump you should not have too many problems on that side but just check that the governor seals are intact etc. If the engine has revved up massively it is usually running on its own sump. Ben >a quick update > I have just had a look at the coolant and it looks to be oil free. > I half expected it to be mixed with oil, i know that this is not exactly a > high tech check. > GGJ There are a couple of kill quicks you can prepare for; 1. Locate the fuel pump, identify the feed from the tank (not the one going to the dis pump) crack it open then tighten back up (finger tight), then when you start the engine be prepared to leap in and undo it. the engine will continue to run until there is no fuel. 2. At the back (bulkhead side) of the distributor pump there is an electrical connection. Turn on the ignition go to the pump and remove the connection if there is a noticable click (repeatedly do this to check) you have found the stop solenoid. this can be removed when the engine is running. the engine will stop providing this itself is not at fault. 3. If an EDC system the same should apply, but I would check all connections for the accelarator (drive by wire) connections as these may be at fault. Hope this may help, experts welcome to castigate <snip> > Hope this may help, experts welcome to castigate If a diesel engine is running on the contents of it's sump none of your suggestions will help. the only option is to block the air intake to the engine. SignatureEMB "Gary G Jones" > 1)where do I start to look for the problem, does it sound to you folks > like a head gasket problem. Nope > 2) if I to turn the key and start it up and it goes into super high rev > mode even with the key out, how the hell do I stop it fast. It won't. You will be lucky if it runs at all, but if it does it just might be OK > I'm just going now to have a look at the coolant to see if its full of > oil. Unlikely. What has happened is that your intercooler has gradually filled with oil and it started to siphon over into the air intake. If not then oil has been overfilled in the sump or diesel has added to the volume in the sump. My money is on the first reason. This would probably have happened due to a failure to maintain or just a failure of the cyclone which separates oil vapour out of the breathing system so that it the oil is returned to the intake rather than returned to the sump. It used to be the case that cleaning the intercooler was a regular service item, both to maintain its efficiency and to prevent it filling with oil. Huw > What has happened is that your intercooler has gradually filled with oil and > it started to siphon over into the air intake. If not then oil has been > overfilled in the sump or diesel has added to the volume in the sump. My > money is on the first reason. Or the seal in the turbo has let go and it'd pumping oil in via the turbo. SignatureEMB > Or the seal in the turbo has let go and it'd pumping oil in via the turbo. Could the loss of acceleration earlier in the journey have been the turbo bearings failing - loss of boost, turbo oil seals getting stretched causing the smoke from the exhaust, finally the high pressure oil feed to the turbo bearings squeezes oil past the seal and into the inlet? I've seen it before on diesel turbos. Andy 1986 110 V8 || Hi Folks || Just driving home in the discovery tonight (300tdi 1995 auto) [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] || Many thanks for your help. || GGJ What all the others said. It sounds like it is running on its own oil. At that mileage, it might just be the bores are worn and the cylinder pressure blows past the pistons and pushes the sump oil up into the air intake. If you'd overfilled it with oil, that might have made it happen more easily. With an auto, the only reliable way to stop it would be to get access to the air intake (quickly) and stuff a rag down it to choke the engine. I wouldn't risk putting my hand over it as you might with an engine running normally. If you're doing any "testing", take the air filter off and dismantle so you can stuff something in there if it does it again. SignatureRich ============================== I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one. > What all the others said. It sounds like it is running on its own oil. At > that mileage, it might just be the bores are worn and the cylinder pressure [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > normally. If you're doing any "testing", take the air filter off and > dismantle so you can stuff something in there if it does it again. You'll want more than a rag - that will just get sucked straight in to the turbo causing damage. The best way is a square of sturdy plywood to put straight over the intake pipe. SignatureEMB Well I have had another quick check of things, the dip stick is still showing oil in the sump, the discovery had a 12k service about 800 miles ago, no top up of oil since then, it uses virtually no oil at all and never has. It does not even leak any oil. All turbo hoses were changed for silicon ones about 1500 miles ago, not much muck was found in the old ones. I think, going by all the posts I will give my local land rover specialist a call tomorrow and get the AA to take it over to them. To be honest I have lost the nerve to switch it on. I had read about this revving thing a few times but my god, I sure don't want to be standing next to it if it does it again. I don't think the neighbours would be too happy either. Many thanks for all your suggestions. I will let you know how I get on. Cheers GGJ On Thursday 25 May 2006 18:35, Gary G Jones [ggjggjnospam@openworld.com] wrote in message <RcWdnXHujepVd-jZRVny3g@bt.com> > Hi Folks > Just driving home in the discovery tonight (300tdi 1995 auto) > maintained > regardless of cost. <snip> > As I arrived outside the house I switched off but the engine kept on > running. Worse than this it, decided that it was going to rev itself to > hell and back <snip> Sounds like the classic running-on-engine-oil syndrome with an outside chance of a failed/jammed injection pump. I had an old Land Rover with a Perkins 4203 (ok, a million miles from a 300tdi but same principle) and I decided to put some fuel cleaner through it. All the semi-solid sediment loosened off, jammed the filters and also jammed the injector open. The result was a severe loss of power because it couldn't draw enough fuel coupled with a tendency to rev like made in neutral. Check the oil level and also the consistency. Give it a sniff to see if it smells of neat diesel oil. > > Hi Folks > > Just driving home in the discovery tonight (300tdi 1995 auto) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > hell and back > <snip> Gary, are you in West Norfolk by any chance? There's TJC between Swaffham and Fakenham or Overland at Methwold. TonyB > Gary, are you in West Norfolk by any chance? > There's TJC between Swaffham and Fakenham or Overland at Methwold. > TonyB Hi Tony , yep I'm in west Norfolk, and it will soon be heading off to TJC's to see what they say. GGJ > > Gary, are you in West Norfolk by any chance? > > There's TJC between Swaffham and Fakenham or Overland at Methwold. > > TonyB > > Hi Tony , yep I'm in west Norfolk, and it will soon be heading off to TJC's > to see what they say. I can offer you a tow if you need one - I'm in the Methwold area. TonyB > I can offer you a tow if you need one - I'm in the Methwold area. > TonyB Hi Tony Many thanks for your kind offer but the AA have done the deed Cheers Gary > Hi Folks > Just driving home in the discovery tonight (300tdi 1995 auto) maintained [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Many thanks for your help. > GGJ I'll get a cup of tea your head gasket has gone (back LH corner looking in from the front). If you have not used all the oil (it would seem not if it starts doing it again!) then it is unlikely there will be any further damage. If you *really* need to start it again top up the oil first. To stop it, put the handbrake on and the footbrake, stick it in 5th and let the clutch off - it will stall easily. Allow a bit of space in case the hadbrake's not 100% - there's no need to go into trees etc. This is a well know problem at the sort of milage you car is at, and while being a bit scary don't panic! Bearing in mind the possibility of having burned all the oil (that's what the vast smoke cloud was), a new head gasket is all that will be required - it most likely won't happen again. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone? Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay > To stop it, put the handbrake on and the footbrake, stick it in 5th and > let the clutch off - it will stall easily. Another who didn't read the OP properly. B-) "(300tdi 1995 auto)". SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail > > To stop it, put the handbrake on and the footbrake, stick it in 5th and > > let the clutch off - it will stall easily. > > Another who didn't read the OP properly. B-) Stick it in Drive then, same difference.... > "(300tdi 1995 auto)". Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone? Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay It is almost certainly a head gasket, my 200TDI did exactly the same, except mine is a manual and I could stall it. Check the oil level, you will find that it has drunk it all. Top it back up and try to start it, it will run for a little while before it gets into a run-away state. The gasket will have blown between a cylinder and an oil way. You may get away with just replacing the gasket, but the head may need skimming. Regards Jeff >> > To stop it, put the handbrake on and the footbrake, stick it in 5th and >> > let the clutch off - it will stall easily. >> >> Another who didn't read the OP properly. B-) > >Stick it in Drive then, same difference.... erm... not on any auto I've ever had. converter stall at about 1800 on the 4HP22 in the earlier rangies. You *can* stall an auto, but not under those conditions. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Satisfying: Satisfy your inner child by eating ten tubes of Smarties from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. >>> > To stop it, put the handbrake on and the footbrake, stick it in >>> > 5th and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > those > conditions. Hmmm. That's when it's running with full rack on diesel: it would be nice to think it might develop less torque on engine oil, delivered to the cylinder in rather bigger drops than it's designed for. Even if could hold 2000 rpm, might it just break the faster - more oil - faster rather vicious spiral to on-display conrods? Things might get a bit warm in the gearbox if it didn't work, I must admit. SignatureKevin Poole **Use current month and year to reply (e.g. may2006@mainbeam.co.uk)*** |
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