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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / October 2006series fuel gauge
I have got a series2A and i have had trouble with the fuel gauge or sender since i've had it.the gauge would only read either full or empty or when the fuel level got low it would bounce up and down. The landy has been switched to negative earth. any how i changed the sender last night but nothing changed. Could it be the wires on the fuel gauge are wrong way round. Thanks Dave 63 series 2A 90 Toy Landcruiser It's a short in the electrical circuit or poor/non-existant earth. Use a meter to check. > I have got a series2A and i have had trouble with the fuel gauge or sender > since i've had it.the gauge would only read either full or empty or when [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 63 series 2A > 90 Toy Landcruiser > It's a short in the electrical circuit or poor/non-existant earth. Use > a meter to check. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > any how i changed the sender last night but nothing changed. Do you mean 'new' when you say you have changed the sender unit or changed it for another secondhand knackered one? > > Could it be the wires on the fuel gauge are wrong way round. I wouldn't have thought so but going off the behaviour of the gauge and if it's a diesel sender unit it sounds like you've got the gauge connected to the low fuel warning terminal on the unit, are there two terminals on there? Martin > > Thanks > > > > Dave > > 63 series 2A > > 90 Toy Landcruiser New one >> It's a short in the electrical circuit or poor/non-existant earth. Use >> a meter to check. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> > 63 series 2A >> > 90 Toy Landcruiser > New one And the other question?...... Does it have two terminals on the tank sender unit?.. Martin Could it be a missing or faulty voltage regulator? Little thing about an 1"x1/4"x1/4" looks a bit like a ceramic resistor. Usually (on a series 3) attached to the back of the instrument panel. Nigel  Signaturenigel@leginDOTorg and a couple of SJs for spares >I have got a series2A and i have had trouble with the fuel gauge or sender > since i've had it.the gauge would only read either full or empty or when [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 63 series 2A > 90 Toy Landcruiser I will check this out over the weekend. > Could it be a missing or faulty voltage regulator? > Little thing about an 1"x1/4"x1/4" looks a bit like a ceramic resistor. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> 63 series 2A >> 90 Toy Landcruiser >I will check this out over the weekend. my 2a has no voltage reg. it just means that once you start the engine and the alternator starts doing its business both the gauges move up about 1/4 of the scale. They dont fluctuate a lot just read high. It means that my tank is really empty it still says about 1.4 full which has only caught me out once! > I have got a series2A and i have had trouble with the fuel gauge or sender > since i've had it.the gauge would only read either full or empty or when [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 63 series 2A > 90 Toy Landcruiser Your problem could arise from the fact that there are two fuel guages and senders fitted to Series 2a Landrovers. The change was after vehicle suffix C about 1967 from 90519841 to 555835 with senders 519838 and 555844 (these are just the basic petrol ones - different for diesel and 109 station wagon). If you mix the either gauge with the wrong sender you will get the sort of result you are seeing. If yours is a 63 one, it should have the earlier type - but! of course it is possible to change the system from that originally fitted to the later one or vice versa, but both gauge and sender must be changed, and the later one also needs a small voltage regulator, in the 2a usually attached to the bulkhead behind the instrument cluster (and this attachment is also the earth point for the regulator, and if it is not a good earth, this will also cause strange results). In the Series 3 it is on the back of the speedo. JD > > I have got a series2A and i have had trouble with the fuel gauge or sender > > since i've had it.the gauge would only read either full or empty or when [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > wagon). If you mix the either gauge with the wrong sender you will get the > sort of result you are seeing. I disagree, if you mix the wrong types they will just read wrong, not "bounce up and down" as he says. If yours is a 63 one, it should have the > earlier type - It *is* the earlier type, the later gauge moves slowly and also the vehicle has been changed from positive earth which also suggests an early model. but! of course it is possible to change the system from that > originally fitted to the later one or vice versa, but both gauge and sender > must be changed, and the later one also needs a small voltage regulator, in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > on the back of the speedo. > JD Absolutely, they must be paired. Getting back to his problem he says it reads either full or empty (but doesn't say whether empty when actually empty or vice versa) and when the level is low it "bounces up and down", which suggests to me that he hasn't got the later tank unit (if connected correctly) which would read empty when full and vice versa but has got a diesel tank unit with the gauge connected to the 'low fuel' terminal. Unless there's a dodgy connection (reads full) or shorting wire to the tank unit (reads empty) but those would be faulty for most of the time, not just when the "fuel level got low". From his description of his problem I think it is rather pointless to pursue it further as he does not answer questions the answer to which would help with a diagnosis. Martin > From his description of his problem I think it is rather pointless to pursue > it further as he does not answer questions the answer to which would help > with a diagnosis. As usual getting a decent description of the problem is harder than actually solving the problem. This has reminded me why I'm off the tools now. SignatureEMB > > From his description of his problem I think it is rather pointless to pursue > > it further as he does not answer questions the answer to which would help [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > actually solving the problem. This has reminded me why I'm off the > tools now. Same here, too old to be arsed with it. :-) Martin >> > From his description of his problem I think it is rather pointless to >pursue [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> > Same here, too old to be arsed with it. :-) 's not too bad on older motors - it's the modern stuff with all the electronics that bothers me - take the tranny, for example, with its Lucas Epic engine management. I daresay there's a diagnostic connector on it somewhere which you can plug in and it'll report what's wrong with it; but it's not going to be (easily) diagnosable with ordinary equipment. I'm not against all the electronic systems, provided they're built with an eye to durability (and to be fair, the stuff on the tranny has nice sealed plugs which don't readily admit water to cause corrosion, for example) but it'd be a lot more useful in the real world which doesn't include dealerships and lots of money if the system had the ability to indicate its own faults. This need only be a fault code which can be looked up provided the look-up list is readily available - but it needs to be comprehensive: it's no use having a fault code that says "engine management system faulty", it's got to say "crank speed sensor faulty" or "inlet air temperature sensor disconnected" or suchlike. I don't see why the things can't have this ability - the system has to be able to communicate with all its sensors and switches and actuators and so on, so it must know which one's not responding - all it needs is the ability to report accurately. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic face by frightening people in the street. from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. > I'm not against all the electronic systems, provided they're built with an > eye to durability (and to be fair, the stuff on the tranny has nice sealed [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > switches and actuators and so on, so it must know which one's not responding > - all it needs is the ability to report accurately. Like the average Toyota - link 2 terminals in the connector under the bonnet (a bent paperclip suffices), turn on the key, and count the flashes of the 'Check Engine' light on the dash. It gives enough detail to track most problems down, and resetting the ECU memory is as simple as pulling the EFI fuse for 5 mins. Maybe LR can learn a bit from this. >>> > From his description of his problem I think it is rather pointless to >>pursue [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > and switches and actuators and so on, so it must know which one's not > responding - all it needs is the ability to report accurately. There is a case being talked about recently in Australia where a Defender under warranty was shipped about 2000km to the nearest dealer - it took a fortnight to find a carrier who would move it (plus trailer). The problem? faulty throttle potentiometer. What this case has done for the family in question and for Landrover credibility can only be imagined. No local mechanic was prepared to even look at it as none had the required software. JD > >>> > From his description of his problem I think it is rather pointless to > >>pursue [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > mechanic was prepared to even look at it as none had the required software. > JD A case of vehicle complexity costing them sales because they are too tight fisted to supply local dealers with essential free software, in other words, no backup. And don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have a car, I only use Landrover products. Martin >> >>> > From his description of his problem I think it is rather pointless > to [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Martin Not quite that simple - no local dealer, as Landrover in Australia has been cutting back dealerships to major cities - and in Australia these are a long way apart in places. (Although there was probably never a Landrover dealer within 500km of this location) But they are selling vehicles that can only be fixed by a dealer and trying to get round this by shipping vehicles back to the dealer, overlooking the fact that this is often easier said than done. In this case they would have done better to have flown in a mechanic with a test book - and waited the 24hrs for the next plane to get the part in, and the owner would have been on his way in a couple of days and it would have been cheaper for Landrover - but of course that is being wise after the event. Just as likely that the breakdown would have required a part not available in the country, a fortnight to get it from the UK - like the official position on a rear window for my 110 recently, which I found while looking for a S/H one at the nearest (non-specialist) wrecker, although heaven knows why he had a new one. But according to the official channels, two weeks ex-UK. JD > A case of vehicle complexity costing them sales because they are too tight >fisted to supply local dealers with essential free software, in other words, >no backup. And don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have a car, I only use >Landrover products. But it also highlights quite clearly that the diagnostics need to be on the vehicle. It's no use selling things as being capable of going anywhere if a simple problem immobilises it and can't be identified. Like EMB says about the toyota, only more so - it should be able to give a specific fault code that says "throttle pot out of spec" - the ECU *MUST* "know" this to be able to flag up a fault in the first place, how difficult is it, these days, to have it put it up on a simple little LCD display on the dash, either as a code (but in that case the list of fault codes MUST be freely available) or a simple message. CF the thing in another fred about the LPG vauxhall, which put a message on the display saying "stop the car and evacuate the cabin" because of a fault leading to an LPG tank venting. It can be done and it bloody should be done, and not to do it makes a mockery of the go-anywhere image. ISTR that a disco 3 on test in Africa had to be shipped back to europe for similar reasons - no testbook avilable. FFS, LR, build the diagnostics into the vehicle and make it a selling point: "In the unlikely event of a system failure, the on-board diagnostics will identify the failed component", for example. But that means that first-world dealers can't then charge 250 bucks a time to "diagnose" it and repair it, of course... SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young / In a world of magnets and miracles / Our thoughts strayed constantly and without boundary / The ringing of the Division bell had begun. Pink Floyd (1994) > > A case of vehicle complexity costing them sales because they are too tight > >fisted to supply local dealers with essential free software, in other words, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > first-world dealers can't then charge 250 bucks a time to "diagnose" it and > repair it, of course... Unfortunately it's not that simple (Ex-R75 disgnostics Engineer hat on). The ECU only holds data, and that has to be converted into information which is readable/understandable by users (particularly if its on the vehicle, as owners will play....). The major factor thought, is that the vast majority of possible faults aren't specific to the ECU. It could, for example, detect an injector fault - but is it an output trasistor failure (which the ECU could usually tell, on Lucas ones anyway), the injector (or part thereof), or a wiring fault, or duff fuel, or lack of fuel etc etc. ECU fault codes are only the very start of diagnostics, and to make sense of a fault code a multimeter, oscillascope and god knows what else is possibly required. You only have to look at the number of faults that auto boxes on 38a Range Rovers trigger that are nothing to do with it to see how complex things can get. And of course the 38a Front ABS Sensor fault which gets blamed sqaurely on the traction control ..... Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive >Unfortunately it's not that simple (Ex-R75 disgnostics Engineer hat on). >The ECU only holds data, and that has to be converted into [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >tell, on Lucas ones anyway), the injector (or part thereof), or >a wiring fault, or duff fuel, or lack of fuel etc etc. It could, though, put up a code that says "#4 injector not firing" and then you'd know what circuit to look at. similarly, for example, it could say things like "plenum temp sender out of range", which of course could be the sender, or a short-circuit wire, or an open-circuit wire... but knowing which circuit you want to be checking would make life a lot easier. >ECU fault >codes are only the very start of diagnostics, and to make sense >of a fault code a multimeter, oscillascope and god knows what >else is possibly required. indeed - it's similar to traditional diagnostics, in a way: "#3 cylinder not firing". could be the plug, lead, dizzy cap, injector fault etc etc. My point is that the ECU codes are only readable by (in LR terms) testbook (or, I assume, Rovacom and similar) and if you're 300 miles from the nearest such device, you're stuffed. If the fault codes were displayed on the vehicle (even if it says "#4 injector fault" and nothing more specific) then someone with just a mutlimeter etc. has a sporting chance of being able to fix it. >You only have to look at the number of faults that auto boxes >on 38a Range Rovers trigger that are nothing to do with it to >see how complex things can get. And of course the 38a Front >ABS Sensor fault which gets blamed sqaurely on the traction control well, that, frankly, sounds like a programming issue. Granted, TC and ABS both use the same sensor, it should be possible to detect a sensor fault. How does the 'box trigger faults in other systems...? Mind, it seems like the 38a is about the worst of the bunch, diagnostics-wise. ISTR that the disco III and next RR (forgotten the code) are simpler/better. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" Alphonse Karr (1808 - 1890) Les Guêpes, Jan 1849 >>Unfortunately it's not that simple (Ex-R75 disgnostics Engineer hat on). >>The ECU only holds data, and that has to be converted into [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > diagnostics-wise. ISTR that the disco III and next RR (forgotten the > code) are simpler/better. Exactly - and the cost of cpu power and displays is such that there is no reason why the necessary software and a simple alphanumeric display could not be included in the vehicle. It would add no more than a few hundred dollars at most in a vehicle selling for $50,000 or more. JD > >>Unfortunately it's not that simple (Ex-R75 disgnostics Engineer hat on). > >>The ECU only holds data, and that has to be converted into [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > dollars at most in a vehicle selling for $50,000 or more. > JD 20p, 100mA or 100g is a lot in vehicle production - the hoops deisgners have to go through to meet cost/weight/current specifications is amazing - even on £50,000 vehicle. As an exmaple, 38a's very nearly had a "space saver" spare wheel, but in the end other systems were reduced in weight, or removed, so a tradiational spare could be accomodated. "Just adding" this or that because it would be nice is not an option unless it's designed in (and costed etc) right from the start. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive As an exmaple, >38a's very nearly had a "space saver" spare wheel, but in the >end other systems were reduced in weight, or removed, so a >tradiational spare could be accomodated. > >Richard Would actually like one of those now, as LPG tank sitting in spare wheel well. Anyone know of anything that would fit? David >> >>Unfortunately it's not that simple (Ex-R75 disgnostics Engineer hat >> >>on). The ECU only holds data, and that has to be converted into [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > that because it would be nice is not an option unless it's > designed in (and costed etc) right from the start. Which is exactly what should have been done - let's face it, digital engine and vehicle system management computers are not exactly new. Eventually the sort of thing I am talking about will become commonplace some time in the future, and should be much higher up the priority list than some of the other things that are done. JD > >> >>Unfortunately it's not that simple (Ex-R75 disgnostics Engineer hat > >> >>on). The ECU only holds data, and that has to be converted into [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > other things that are done. > JD From the manufacturers point of view, adding on board diagnistsics is a way, way down the list - its heavy (realtively speaking), draws "unncessary" current, would be of no interest to the vast majority of users, wastes quite a lot of real-estate on the dash (or wherever), is an "unecsessry" on-cost, etc etc. And not forgetting that main dealers have an interest and have to be kept happy! Now putting a PlayStation in, or an extra cup-holder - customers *want* them, so in they goes..... sadly. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive > It could, though, put up a code that says "#4 injector not firing" and then > you'd know what circuit to look at. similarly, for example, it could say > things like "plenum temp sender out of range", which of course could be the > sender, or a short-circuit wire, or an open-circuit wire... but knowing > which circuit you want to be checking would make life a lot easier. 'zactly. But it still comes down to diagnostic skills to intepret what is actually causing the fault. I had a friend's Toyota a couple of weeks ago that was showing "knock sensor no signal for more than 3rpm". It had been to a Toyota dealer who had replaced the sensor, 2 auto electricians who had charged lots of money to say "the ECU's buggered" and was brought to me as a last resort in the hope I could find a second hand ECU on the cheap. 5 minutes with the multimeter showed a short in the knock sensor wiring, 30 minutes stripped the loom and found where it had been crushed by a monkey changing the clutch at an earlier stage and another hour had it repaired and running perfectly with the original knock sensor. The battle for a refund from the clowns who had looked at it previously continues. And my faith in modern day garages continues to wane - real mechanics are becoming very rare, it's all just parts fitters who are stumped the moment changing the obvious bit doesn't alleviate the problem. Even more scary was interviewing candidates for a mechanic's job at a mate's garage. 2 of the young guys not long out of their time had never lapped a valve, and one had never even had the head off an engine despite 4 years in the trade. And just to really reduce their chances of getting the job neither of them could weld in any way, shape or form. SignatureEMB >'zactly. But it still comes down to diagnostic skills to intepret what >is actually causing the fault. I had a friend's Toyota a couple of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >another hour had it repaired and running perfectly with the original >knock sensor. this makes my point in several ways, doesn't it? Because you had a message saying "knock sensor no signal", you knew where to look for a fault. The first effort would be to replace the sensor, but the dealer's component-swapper, like a twit, then didn't follow that with "OK, sensor's now presumed OK, why else would it not get a signal?" The auto electricians should have known better and were either incompetent or simply on the make. Knowing that the sensor had been changed, you were already predisposed to look at other things. I'm surprised the dealer hadn't tried fitting a different ECU to see if that cured it - profit margin on ECUs must be considerable... But if all you'd had was a "check engine" light, you'd have been wondering where to start. Doubtless, it *could* have been diagnosed by a lot of trial and error, but that would imply both time and available parts to swap out in turn. That or a detailed examination of all the ECU wiring loom. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Chuck didn't reply, so George swung round in his saddle. He could just see Chuck's face, a white oval turned toward the sky. 'Look,' whispered Chuck, and George lifted his eyes to heaven. (There is always a last time for everything.) Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out" Arthur C. Clarke, "The 9 billion names of God" >Even more scary was interviewing candidates for a mechanic's job at a >mate's garage. 2 of the young guys not long out of their time had never >lapped a valve, and one had never even had the head off an engine >despite 4 years in the trade. And just to really reduce their chances >of getting the job neither of them could weld in any way, shape or form. is the job still open? I can weld with gas, arc and mig and I've currenty got the head off the TDi, now gone to be refaced, not because I really think it needs it, but as a precuation, having had one gasket start to go. #4 cylinder showed suspicious clean pacth in the soot-mark on the head. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Chuck didn't reply, so George swung round in his saddle. He could just see Chuck's face, a white oval turned toward the sky. 'Look,' whispered Chuck, and George lifted his eyes to heaven. (There is always a last time for everything.) Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out" Arthur C. Clarke, "The 9 billion names of God" <snip> > My point is that the ECU codes are only readable by (in LR terms) testbook > (or, I assume, Rovacom and similar) and if you're 300 miles from the nearest > such device, you're stuffed. If the fault codes were displayed on the > vehicle (even if it says "#4 injector fault" and nothing more specific) then > someone with just a mutlimeter etc. has a sporting chance of being able to > fix it. I woudn't disagree with that - infact I made myself rather unpoular at Rover by very versifrously (sp?) stating that on an off-road vehicle the user should always have the option of overriding errors, but acknowleging that damage may be caused. At the very least there should be a worth-while limp-home mode (it can be done - even a dual failed crank and cam sensor can be got over by calculating when the cylinder has fired by monitoring the acceleration of the piston - Lucas ECU's can do this). > >You only have to look at the number of faults that auto boxes > >on 38a Range Rovers trigger that are nothing to do with it to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > both use the same sensor, it should be possible to detect a sensor fault. > How does the 'box trigger faults in other systems...? It's not triggering a fault - an error code is created, but why? That's the diagnostics part - how to determine what the root fault is - is it the sensor, or the wiring, of the ECU's attached to the sensor? That's not a programming issue, it's down to the diagnostics Engineer, the designer ("Feature Owner" in Roverspeak), and others doing an FMEA to determine all possible faults, and the diagnostics engineer working out how to prove (or eliminate) all possible error conditions, which will mostly be "outside" the ECU. e.g. - the gearbox can't get into third gear, so the box raises an error. Is it a problem with the box, a sensor failure, the engine not getting the right speed to allow the change, etc etc. Just telling the driver/owner that "third gear can't be engaged" is far more likely to lead to a false diagnosis ("Bugger, me grabox is knackered") than just raising a "Gearbox Fault" error (which the user probably knows anyway!) and requesting a session with diagnostics tools to look at all possible problems. What it must not do, in my book, is stop the engine (in off-road situations certainly - a la Td5). > Mind, it seems like the 38a is about the worst of the bunch, > diagnostics-wise. ISTR that the disco III and next RR (forgotten the code) > are simpler/better. Well, they do have more extensive CAN bus conectivity, which allows more devices to be interrogated which in turn helps pin-point the problem without getting the tools out - but this can lead to other problems, like the Discovery III rear light bulb issue, if an unforseen (shouldn't happen, but Engineers *hate* FMEA sessions) circumstance occurs. What's needed is a full-blown computer on-board to give the diagnostic ability, but designers will assume this needs to be a PC, and will draw far too much current, and add weight to the vehicle (both of which are considered very serious issues in vehicle design). The solution is sitting under my desk though, it draws just 2W and runs on 5V and could easily use and in-car entertainment screen on the vehicle - but it ain't Windows, so it won't get used! Car designers/manufacturers are *exteremely* conservative - we had a fully CAN (and other bus standards) 4-wire "harness" in a Jag 10 years ago, but the technology is still only being fiddled with in production vehicles (except Citroen, who did a short production run of XM's about 8 years ago). Richard Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive On Wednesday, in article <e953a6774e%beamendsltd@btconnect.com> > What's needed is a full-blown computer on-board to give the > diagnostic ability, but designers will assume this needs to be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > (except Citroen, who did a short production run of XM's about > 8 years ago). "if it ain't Windows" isn't conservative, not if you want support for the life of a vehicle. Windows 98 support has gone. A car company should be looking at real-time embedded systems, where they can get the source code. Some features will be overkill for fault indication, but neither the vehicle nor the external support systems can depend on an OS with the support lifespan shown by Windows. This is nothing to do with the intended use of a Land Rover, or anything special to any particular vehicle. It's just a simple, obvious, consequence of the design life of a road vehicle, compared to a computer. And if those engineers really thought that an in-car system had to use Windows, I would find it hard to consider them competent. Not because of the computer resources that Windows (or, to be clear, Linux) needs to run, but because the idea fails to address the problem at some of the most obvious practical levels. Now, if you want the support software at a dealer's to run on a general- purpose machine, you probably are stuck with Windows. Though I've seen astonishingly old computer hardware attached to test rigs in workshops, such as an Epson PX-8 (?) on a dynanometer. SignatureDavid G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger. "I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six." > On Wednesday, in article > <e953a6774e%beamendsltd@btconnect.com> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > astonishingly old computer hardware attached to test rigs in workshops, > such as an Epson PX-8 (?) on a dynanometer. I should have made it clearer that I meant it would be the end users who would be resistant to non-Windows systems, I think I unintentionaly implied the actual Engineers. Having worked as a freelance software engineer in embedded systems (often automotive) I think I can say the industry is very well aware of embedded systems (in the loosest sense), and the vast array of OS's available. Outside the automotive world, there are an awful lot of process-control/machine control/etc systems still running DOS quite happily, and probably will for a long time to come - Windows just gets in the way (and reduces reliability quite a lot), and also it requires completely uncessesary overheads, e.g. a hard disc and a fair proportion of the National Grid. There is an OS however, which is used in an lot of high reliability embedded systems in areas that don't get much publicity, that has the OS in ROM, requires no hard drive and runs on ARM processors (it's on my little ARM9 2W box under the desk, which is actually just a rather neat industrial controller!), but no ones ever heard of it. It would be ideal for on-board automotive applications, it actually uses less power that most alarm systems. It'll never catch on though - it's British........ Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive >> On Wednesday, in article >> <e953a6774e%beamendsltd@btconnect.com> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Richard An on-board diagnostic system should not concern the vehicle owner/mechanic WHAT operating system is used - it simply interprets the CPU's error outputs into human readable statements - possibly even just numbers to be used with a list in the owners handbook, although there is no reason why it can't use plain English. And I would not be surprised to hear that there were a significant number of industrial applications in current use running CP/M. JD > And I would not be surprised to hear that there were a significant number of > industrial applications in current use running CP/M. There certainly are - I look after several. SignatureEMB >> And I would not be surprised to hear that there were a significant number of >> industrial applications in current use running CP/M. > >There certainly are - I look after several. There are persistent rumours of a nuclear reactor run by a gaggle of 8 commodore pets. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "The boys are dreaming wicked or of the bucking ranches of the night and the jollyrodgered sea." Dylan Thomas (1914 - 1953) Under milk wood >>> And I would not be surprised to hear that there were a significant number of >>> industrial applications in current use running CP/M. >> There certainly are - I look after several. > > There are persistent rumours of a nuclear reactor run by a gaggle of 8 > commodore pets. Probably safer than a gaggle of 'doze machines. SignatureEMB > >> And I would not be surprised to hear that there were a significant number of > >> industrial applications in current use running CP/M. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > There are persistent rumours of a nuclear reactor run by a gaggle of 8 > commodore pets. I heard that the London Underground is run by BBCs, izzatso? Martin > I heard that the London Underground is run by BBCs, izzatso? Wot, using the "tube" interface? Hehehe... SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > > I heard that the London Underground is run by BBCs, izzatso? > > Wot, using the "tube" interface? > > Hehehe... Now would probably be even funnier if I knew what a 'tube interface' was, not being a computer techie. ;-) Martin > Now would probably be even funnier if I knew what a 'tube interface' was, > not being a computer techie. ;-) Ah, sorry, the BBC computer has an interface on the bottom labelled "tube", it was used mainly to connect a second processor, I wonder if that's where the notion that the underground system was controlled by them came from! SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > > Now would probably be even funnier if I knew what a 'tube interface' was, > > not being a computer techie. ;-) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that's where the notion that the underground system was controlled by > them came from! I think whoever told me was serious but you're probably right. I've still got a Model B around somewhere, I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can figure out what that is though I'm pretty sure they said the 'BBC Master'. Martin > I think whoever told me was serious but you're probably right. I've still > got a Model B around somewhere, I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can > figure out what that is though I'm pretty sure they said the 'BBC Master'. All the BBCs apart from the model 'A' had the tube IIRC, but the beebs were popular for many things involving external control as they had a decent amount of external communication hardware. Nice little machines, I'll get an econet up and running one of these days with my beebs on it. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > It'll never catch on though - it's British........ Tsk. As is the processor design it's running on, which certainly caught on, and the most popular OS on the ARM is Symbian's, also British. I'm assuming you're talking about Risc OS though, which to be honest was never very reliable, I used it for 7 years and still have it, and I'd certainly not regard it as suitable for an embedded system, parts of it are used in some set-top boxes but no-one would use it in anything other than the most simple system. A proper embedded OS designed for the task would be better. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > A proper embedded OS > designed for the task would be better. If its proper embedded, there isn't ROOM for an OS. :-) Steve, writing for 8 bitters still > If its proper embedded, there isn't ROOM for an OS. >:-) > > Steve, writing for 8 bitters still 8 bitters? Nancy boy ;-) ISTR PIDs coming in four bits. One of my favourite brain-bending machines of yesteryear was a British machine IIRC, known as the DAP. It used a one-bit processor, 1024 of them in an array... At 10MHz it could render a high-res raytrace in 5 seconds that took a high-powered sparcstation of the day over 2 hours to generate. That was without a floating-point unit as well, just integer maths. Nice little machine, provided you could program FORTRAN. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! >> If its proper embedded, there isn't ROOM for an OS. >>:-) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >to generate. That was without a floating-point unit as well, just >integer maths. Nice little machine, provided you could program FORTRAN. I've still got a Dragon 32, somewhere. dunno if it still works, mind. 6804 processor, IIRC. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802) > I've still got a Dragon 32, somewhere. dunno if it still works, > mind. 6804 processor, IIRC. So've I, along with a brace of beebs, a few C64s and a range of other old geek gear, even a Mattel Aquarius with a four-colour pen plotter! Must dig it all out sometime before the bat piss rots it all away. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! >> I've still got a Dragon 32, somewhere. dunno if it still works, >> mind. 6804 processor, IIRC. > > So've I, along with a brace of beebs, a few C64s and a range of other > old geek gear, even a Mattel Aquarius with a four-colour pen plotter! > Must dig it all out sometime before the bat piss rots it all away. I'll raise you a Kaypro II, a VIC20 and a Wang 2200T (and most other members of the CS/2200 family). SignatureEMB > I'll raise you a Kaypro II, a VIC20 and a Wang 2200T (and most other > members of the CS/2200 family). I think I have a vic 20 but you've trumped me with the Kaypro and the Wang, although I used to have a Nascom some time ago, but I was a kid at the time so pulled it apart and it vanished over the years! How about table-top games of Astro Wars, Scramble and Munchman? ;-) I can still wrap the score on Astro Wars. My current junk of this type; http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Grandstand/Astro.htm http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Grandstand/Scramble.htm http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Grandstand/Munch.htm http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Grandstand/MiniMunch.htm There's a Frogger up there somewhere too, not to mention two Big Traks and a trailer... What am I doing sitting at my desk working.. I should be up in the loft. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! >> I've still got a Dragon 32, somewhere. dunno if it still works, >> mind. 6804 processor, IIRC. > >So've I, along with a brace of beebs, a few C64s and a range of other >old geek gear, even a Mattel Aquarius with a four-colour pen plotter! >Must dig it all out sometime before the bat piss rots it all away. actually, I think it's a 6809. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" John Donne (1571? - 1631) Devotions, XVII > actually, I think it's a 6809. Motorola 6809E @ 0.89 MHz according to wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_32/64 I've never actually fired mine up yet, it's item number 2.364x10^13 on my todo list, one above "repair wing on landy". SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! >> actually, I think it's a 6809. > >Motorola 6809E @ 0.89 MHz according to wikipedia; > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_32/64 well well. One thing they did have was lovely joysticks, with erm... <counts on fingers> 6 bit (I think) A-D on each axis. Programming wise, the axes went from 0-63 each way, so that 0,0 was bottom left and 63,63 was top right. Made for excellent control of flying games and the like. This is something sadly lacking from more or less everything else - switched on-off joysticks are nowhere near as good. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that If all be true that I do think, There are five reasons we should drink; Good wine, a friend, or being dry, Or lest we should be by and by; Or any other reason why. - Henry Aldrich (1647 - 1710) > >> If its proper embedded, there isn't ROOM for an OS. > >>:-) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I've still got a Dragon 32, somewhere. dunno if it still works, mind. 6804 > processor, IIRC. An' I've still got a TRS80 16k level 2 that still works! Martin >> >> If its proper embedded, there isn't ROOM for an OS. >> >>:-) [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >An' I've still got a TRS80 16k level 2 that still works! If were going for obscure i've got a tandy newbrain with a built in screen :) > If were going for obscure i've got a tandy newbrain with a built in > screen :) Tandy? I thought it was Grundy? "Grundy", sounds like a west country manufacturer ;-) SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > >> >> If its proper embedded, there isn't ROOM for an OS. > >> >>:-) [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > If were going for obscure i've got a tandy newbrain with a built in > screen :) Still got an Acorn Atom, a Sinclair ZX81(which I had given to me), a BBC Model B and some bits of a Ferranti Advance left over (which has arrays of tubular glass encased transistors, not chips). ;-) Martin > I've still got a Dragon 32, somewhere. dunno if it still works, mind. 6804 > processor, IIRC. If it doesn't the guy who designed it is a personal acquaintance of mine.... Steve |
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