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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / October 2006Overhauling brake master cylinder
I'm just about to have a go at this and the official manual talks about lubricating things with "rubber grease" prior to reassembly, I've never heard of this and wonder if it's readily available or do people use any ordinary grease?. Greg > I'm just about to have a go at this and the official manual talks about > lubricating things with "rubber grease" prior to reassembly, I've never > heard of this and wonder if it's readily available or do people use any > ordinary grease?. Do NOT use ordinary grease, or anything petroleum based - it will rot the rubber seals. If rubber grease is not available you can use a bit of brake fluid to lubricate it.  SignatureEMB > I'm just about to have a go at this and the official manual talks about > lubricating things with "rubber grease" prior to reassembly, I've never > heard of this and wonder if it's readily available or do people use any > ordinary grease?. No, you need "rubber grease", the combination of normal grease, rubber and brake fluid isn't a good one and will lead to the seals perishing, so get some "rubber grease". You should be able to get it from a motor factors. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > No, you need "rubber grease", the combination of normal grease, rubber > and brake fluid isn't a good one and will lead to the seals perishing, > so get some "rubber grease". You should be able to get it from a > motor factors. Thanks to everyone who replied, I'll get the proper stuff for the job. I just wondered if the 30 year old manual was still valid given that I thought they stopped using seals that were vulnerable to mineral oil in brakes years ago, from a quick Google it seems not. Greg >> No, you need "rubber grease", the combination of normal grease, rubber >> and brake fluid isn't a good one and will lead to the seals perishing, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Greg There are probably a few cars that do use mineral oil for their brake fluid - I think hydraulic suspension Citroens do for example, and there may be others, but in general, as you say "it seems not". While I am sure it is possible to make a satisfactory system using mineral oils and synthetic seals, there is probably little pressure to do so - why change unless there is a strong reason to do so, particularly with the probability of mistakes in fluid being made with a critical safety system. Citroen probably got away with their change (in 1967 from memory) because it was not just the brake hydraulic system - the same system runs brakes, power steering suspension and (some models) gearbox, so there was less likelihood of their fluid being confused with brake fluid. JD >There are probably a few cars that do use mineral oil for their brake fluid >- I think hydraulic suspension Citroens do for example, some do. LHM = Liquide Hydrolique Minerale. however, some use LHS, which is Synthetique. some of the Rolls-Royce cars have a power braking system using LHM as well, AIUI. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Would to God that we might spend a single day really well!" Thomas À Kempis (1380 - 1471) Imitation of Christ, I.xxiii. > >There are probably a few cars that do use mineral oil for their brake fluid > >- I think hydraulic suspension Citroens do for example, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > some of the Rolls-Royce cars have a power braking system using LHM as well, > AIUI. Until the VW takeover they used Citroen systems, practically straight out of the box. They flid will indeed destroy "normal" seals in minutes - and vice versa. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive >> >There are probably a few cars that do use mineral oil for their brake >> >fluid - I think hydraulic suspension Citroens do for example, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Richard Yes - and Rolls Royce changed fluids somewhat later than Citroen. The main difference between the Rolls Royce and Citroen setup was that Rolls Royce used coil springs not hydraulic accumulators to provide the actual springing - did on the Silver Shadow anyway, don't know about after that. I believe they actually made most of the bits themselves, but paid royalty to Citroen, and probably bought a few bits from them as well. JD (Owned Citroens for thirty years, still have a DSpecial) >>> >There are probably a few cars that do use mineral oil for their brake >>> >fluid - I think hydraulic suspension Citroens do for example, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >JD >(Owned Citroens for thirty years, still have a DSpecial) Citroen's power braking system was bloody good, IMHO. The cunning suspension was neat too, of course. I had a couple of BXs and also occasionally drove a mate's CX. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802) || Citroen's power braking system was bloody good, IMHO. The cunning || suspension was neat too, of course. I had a couple of BXs and also || occasionally drove a mate's CX. Totally agree. I had a BX (1.7 diesel - the slowest of the lot) and it was one of the best "cars" I have ever had. Totally reliable and gave 50mpg no matter what. When it failed its MoT on suspension pipes and spheres I was happy to pay £600 to put it right, on a car that was worth little more than that, just to keep it going. SignatureRich ============================== Take out the obvious to email me. >>>> >There are probably a few cars that do use mineral oil for their brake >>>> >fluid - I think hydraulic suspension Citroens do for example, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > suspension was neat too, of course. I had a couple of BXs and also > occasionally drove a mate's CX. The point is the brakes and suspension are integrated. On the DS at least the braking force is distributed front to rear according to the instantaneous weight on the front and rear wheels; the brake pedal has zero movement and is closer to the floor than the accelerator; and you have about thirty applications of the brakes after the engine stops. Add inboard front brakes, centreline steering - and then remember this is a 1955 design! JD >> There are probably a few cars that do use mineral oil for their brake fluid >> - I think hydraulic suspension Citroens do for example, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > some of the Rolls-Royce cars have a power braking system using LHM as well, > AIUI. Ditto some Jaguars too. SignatureEMB > I'm just about to have a go at this and the official manual talks about > lubricating things with "rubber grease" prior to reassembly, I've never > heard of this and wonder if it's readily available or do people use any > ordinary grease?. > Greg To reinforce EMB - do NOT use ordinary grease. Rubber grease is readily available from any auto parts supplier, although you may have trouble finding the small quantity you need. Many brake cylinder seal kits include some. If you can't find any, use brake fluid. Before you start on the job, make sure your work surface and hands are clean and free from dust and particularly any trace of oil or grease. If you need to clean up the cylinder, piston etc that you are re-using, use either brake cleaning fluid sold for the purpose or methylated spirits. The rubber seals used in brakes are rapidly damaged by even slight traces of anything hydrocarbon based, such as petrol, oil or grease, and poor cleanliness in overhauling these parts is one of the frequent causes of rapid failure. Not quite as bad, but still bad is dust. Any traces of roughness on the inside of the cylinder due to rust or corrosion will also cause eventual failure, and if it cannot be polished off without removing significant amounts of metal, the cylinder should be scrapped or sleeved (a professional job) JD >> I'm just about to have a go at this and the official manual talks about >> lubricating things with "rubber grease" prior to reassembly, I've never [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >professional job) >JD All of which is undoubtedly true and is why, provided new ones are available for less than an arm and a leg (which is the case with LR ones, i.e. they're available), I replace them rather than overhauling 'em. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" John Donne (1571? - 1631) Devotions, XVII > I'm just about to have a go at this and the official manual talks about > lubricating things with "rubber grease" prior to reassembly, I've never > heard of this and wonder if it's readily available or do people use any > ordinary grease?. > Greg We used to have a good stock of red rubber grease (aka brake grease) but when we went to re-stock the new stuff was labelled "Do't not use on rubber components"! As yet I'venot found a replacement supplier, as that suupler could not promise it would be ok. Lucas/TRM wheel cylinder kits still come with a little tube. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive > We used to have a good stock of red rubber grease (aka brake grease) > but when we went to re-stock the new stuff was labelled "Do't not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Lucas/TRM wheel cylinder kits still come with a little tube. Apparently Castrol do one, at least these people list it: http://www.mgocaccessories.co.uk/acatalog/MGOC_Accessories__Grease_176.html I'll have a phone around locally this afternoon as I hope to get the cylinder and servo overhauled this weekend. By the way Richard, is there a problem getting the vacuum fitting and throttle spring as I haven't received them yet? Greg > > We used to have a good stock of red rubber grease (aka brake grease) > > but when we went to re-stock the new stuff was labelled "Do't not [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Greg The vacuum fitting is here, the spring is out of stock - I'll send the fitting. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive > The vacuum fitting is here, the spring is out of stock - I'll > send the fitting. Thanks Richard. Greg > We used to have a good stock of red rubber grease (aka brake grease) > but when we went to re-stock the new stuff was labelled "Do't not > use on rubber components"! > As yet I'venot found a replacement supplier, as that suupler > could not promise it would be ok. Castrol - Red Rubber Grease. 3rd product down on the link below. http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9002192&conte ntId=7002857 £5.25 retail inc VAT for a 500gm pot. SignatureEMB > > We used to have a good stock of red rubber grease (aka brake grease) > > but when we went to re-stock the new stuff was labelled "Do't not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > £5.25 retail inc VAT for a 500gm pot. Indeed - I'll see if they have a wholesaler locally. Cheers for that. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive > Indeed - I'll see if they have a wholesaler locally. > > Cheers for that. Failing that, if you have a PBR wholesaler they should sell the PBR rubber grease in a 150ml tube. SignatureEMB >> We used to have a good stock of red rubber grease (aka brake grease) >> but when we went to re-stock the new stuff was labelled "Do't not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > £5.25 retail inc VAT for a 500gm pot. Lockheed (are they still around?) did a similar thing which they called Rubberlube. You should also be aware that there is another brake grease around which is not suitable for this application. It used to be white and was a high temperature grease used on the sliding surfaces at the ends of brake shoes, adjuster mechanisms etc.. An example of this is Castrol PH grease (but it may no longer be available). As an aside, Castrol's is another website where the last thing that they seem to want you to see is a simple list of their products. Do they want to sell anything? EMB must be congratulated for finding the page that he did! > >> We used to have a good stock of red rubber grease (aka brake grease) > >> but when we went to re-stock the new stuff was labelled "Do't not [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > they want to sell anything? EMB must be congratulated for finding the > page that he did! I'll second that - wholesalers are particularly bad a telling you what they actually sell - Silverline Tools being a notable exception. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive "Dougal" <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message > Lockheed (are they still around?) did a similar thing which they > called Rubberlube. I just got some from my local auto-factors, it's in little sachets about the size of a ketchup sachet which I think will be just right for a single job, better than having to keep a tub spotlessly clean I would think. If you're interested Richard it's Delph Rubberlube LPK102T from Delphi Lockheed Automotive Ltd Warwick England. http://www.delphiauto.co.uk Greg > "Dougal" <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Greg Can you do me a favour and read the leaflet - Delphi/Lucas was the one where they couldn't guarantee that it was ok for rubber - if they are now saying it ok that would be good. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive > Can you do me a favour and read the leaflet - Delphi/Lucas was > the one where they couldn't guarantee that it was ok for rubber > - if they are now saying it ok that would be good. I just phoned the shop to check and there is no warning leaflet in the box the sachets came out of, he's confident it's for use on brake calliper seals etc and they (BL Car Parts in Scarborough) are very well known and trusted in the area. Googling for it only confirms this, although the maker's web site is sod all help apart from a phone number. Incidentally there's no mention of Lucas being involved, it's Delphi Lockheed, and although I have no idea of the corporate structure I would choose Lockheed name over Lucas any day 8-). Greg > > Can you do me a favour and read the leaflet - Delphi/Lucas was > > the one where they couldn't guarantee that it was ok for rubber [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Greg Thanks for that. Lockheed was part of Lucas, the brake and diesels disivsions (and some other bits) being bought by Delphi when TRW realised they had overstertched themselves buying Lucas. Lucas had always maintianed the Lockheed name, as they did with many of their divsions, though in later years the idea of Lucas-Rists, Lucas-Diesels (nee Lucas-CAV) etc crept it. I don't think many people realise just how big Lucas was - it was in the top 6 global automotive (and aerospace) suppliers. It was broken up and sold off for tuppence halfpenny to keep a couple of London pension fund mangers bonues up. Lockheed stuff is slowly being re-branded as Delphi, i.e the word "Lockheed" is getting smaller, while "Delphi" is getting bigger. Delphi is the aftermarket name for General Motors, or one of the big American names, I can never remember which. Oddly, TRW started dual-branding Lucas stuff (they largely ended up with the electrical stuff - less Marelli) with the green Lucas name and red TRW name making the boxes look like Christmas decorations, but now seem to have reverted fully to the Lucas name - touting themselves as as a one-stop shop for the trade. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive >>>Can you do me a favour and read the leaflet - Delphi/Lucas was >>>the one where they couldn't guarantee that it was ok for rubber [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Richard Richard - e-mail with pics is on the way. > Lockheed stuff is slowly being re-branded as Delphi, i.e the > word "Lockheed" is getting smaller, while "Delphi" is getting > bigger. Delphi is the aftermarket name for General Motors, > or one of the big American names, I can never remember which. AC Delco is the GM aftermarket brand. SignatureEMB > As an aside, Castrol's is another website where the last thing that they > seem to want you to see is a simple list of their products. Do they want > to sell anything? EMB must be congratulated for finding the page that > he did! I knew the stuff existed at this end of the world (and found it on the Castrol NZ website straight away) so it was a matter of persevering until I found where it was hiding on their UK website. SignatureEMB >> I'm just about to have a go at this and the official manual talks about >> lubricating things with "rubber grease" prior to reassembly, I've never [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Richard I got some Rubber Grease from my local Motor Factors, they ordered it for me when I rebuilt the brake system on my military truck, it is Lockheed rubber grease in a 500ml tin will last me a life time and some more, if any one wants some let me know and I might be able to post it in a pot of some description for some beer tokens if any one is interested. Good stuff if you get it on your fingers as you will its a vivid red and looks like you have cut yourself really bad, good for a joke on the wife ;-) Rich To reply remove " spam " >> I'm just about to have a go at this and the official manual talks about >> lubricating things with "rubber grease" prior to reassembly, I've never [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Lucas/TRM wheel cylinder kits still come with a little tube. Got a big tin at work from the autofactors a couple of months ago, I've also got silicon grease. |
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