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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / December 2006

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LPG and V8 running fast on tickover.

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Howie - 29 Oct 2006 10:41 GMT
Hi all.

Just bought a nice Discovery II V8 which has a quality LPG
conversion. The engine purrs along beautifully, but..

.. the only thing is that the engine runs rather fast on tickover
(approx 800 rpm). And when I pull away, - if I don't keep the
engine revs very high, it dies and almost stalls.
This happens whether running on petrol or lpg.

Is it possible that this is a quirk of the tuning necessary for a
successful lpg conversion, - or should I have the engine tuned?
If so, would I need a (good) lpg specialist to tune it - or can a
LR dealer manage it - with a converted vehicle such as this?

TIA.

H.
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Badger - 29 Oct 2006 12:24 GMT
> Hi all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> engine revs very high, it dies and almost stalls.
> This happens whether running on petrol or lpg.

Shouldn't do it, mine doesn't.

> Is it possible that this is a quirk of the tuning necessary for a
> successful lpg conversion, - or should I have the engine tuned?

No, it's a quirk of a system not set up correctly! If left, it may cause the
Motronic engine management system to "lock" if it tries to trim fuelling
beyond it's trim limits for too long, I suggest you have it seen to as soon
as poss.

> If so, would I need a (good) lpg specialist to tune it - or can a
> LR dealer manage it - with a converted vehicle such as this?

From experience, land rover dealers will go to great lengths to blame an lpg
installation for any faults that they do not immediately know the answer to!
more likely they will open the bonnet, see the lpg system and simply close
the bonnet again.
What lpg system is it and where are you?
Badger.
Cobra1736 - 29 Oct 2006 14:03 GMT
Badger,
You have an air leak at the inlet manifold.
Regards,
Jerry

>> Hi all.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> What lpg system is it and where are you?
> Badger.
Badger - 29 Oct 2006 15:58 GMT
> Badger,
> You have an air leak at the inlet manifold.
> Regards,
> Jerry

No *I* don't, it's not my vehicle! ;-)
FWIW, the idle speed control on a disco II (Motronic EMS) ought to be able
to pull the idle back down if it were an air leak, although having said that
the gasket between the upper and lower halves of the inlet manifold is a
one-use only gasket that's fairly expensive and I've seen people re-use them
in the past, to their cost.
Badger.
Cobra1736 - 29 Oct 2006 19:51 GMT
Boys,
I don not care who's vehicle it is.
I tell you this is an air leak,  reuse the gasket and try liquid sealant.
Jerry

>> Badger,
>> You have an air leak at the inlet manifold.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> in the past, to their cost.
> Badger.
Badger - 29 Oct 2006 20:43 GMT
> Boys,
> I don not care who's vehicle it is.
> I tell you this is an air leak,  reuse the gasket and try liquid sealant.
> Jerry

Jerry, you said *I* had an air leak, I don't. You may well be correct with
your diagnosis of an air leak though.
As for re-using a corro-joint type gasket, you'll be telling me next it's ok
to re-use tin head gaskets on V8 engines, it's the same gasket type?! If the
gasket is re-used, even with sealant, it will leak in a high percentage of
cases. I know this, I've tried re-using one on my own vehicle after I got
caught out after hours without a spare one.
Whilst advice to help others is greatly appreciated by all, I for one do not
think that advice to re-use an item that's intended for single-use by
bodging with sealant is welcome. (And it is a bodge, the gasket seals by
deformation of the raised sealing rings, once compressed it has lost the
sealing ability)
Are you the same Jerry who used to frequent uk.rec.models.rail, by any
chance? Just that you appear to have a similar attitude in your posts.
Badger.
Cobra1736 - 31 Oct 2006 22:06 GMT
Badger, this is a different Jerry.
I drove for 5 years a 4.0 liter Jeep Wrangler on LPG.
During that period I got a lot of experience with LPG systems and read
several books on the subject.
By trade I am a qualified mechanical engineer and I am in the process of
restoring a 90" Landover that's is why I follow the newsgroup.
Yes I agree that liquid sealant is not an impressive way of solving
problems. But lets us face the real problem the tolerances applied on the
machined parts are poor to say the least. A land or range rover cannot be
compared to for example a Toyota. Rovers leaks jeep, Toyota's, Nissan's,
Mercedes leak a lot less.

I already regret writing this and previous emails. Let's close the
discussion.
Again I apologize,
Jerry

>> Boys,
>> I don not care who's vehicle it is.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> chance? Just that you appear to have a similar attitude in your posts.
> Badger.
Howie - 30 Oct 2006 12:19 GMT
|Boys,
|I don not care who's vehicle it is.
|I tell you this is an air leak,  reuse the gasket and try liquid sealant.
|Jerry

Hi. I really appreciate that. I hope the fact that I've done 2000
miles in it in the last two weeks hasn't damaged anything!

Having not worked on a V8 before, is this a fairly simple DIY
job? (I'm willing to have a go at most things, - and I'm not a
bodger).

I think I will go for the 'new gasket' option anyway.

TIA

H.

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Howie - 30 Oct 2006 12:14 GMT
<snip>

|From experience, land rover dealers will go to great lengths to blame an lpg
|installation for any faults that they do not immediately know the answer to!
|more likely they will open the bonnet, see the lpg system and simply close
|the bonnet again.
|What lpg system is it and where are you?
|Badger.

Hi. Thanks for your help here. The system is a Landi system.
Fitted by ACC Autogas of Ledbury, Herefordshire.
www.acc-autogas.co.uk
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Badger - 30 Oct 2006 13:33 GMT
> <snip>
> |
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Fitted by ACC Autogas of Ledbury, Herefordshire.
> www.acc-autogas.co.uk

Ok, that's not a system I'm familiar with, I tend to fit OMVL systems. To
check for inlet air leaks, first get the engine hot then work your way all
around the inlet manifold checking every hose joint carefully as you go,
tracing the hoses and checking both ends. You can squirt a little wd40 on
the joints and listen for a change in engine rpm, as the wd40 is sucked in
at a leak the engine will burn it and the revs will rise slightly. If you
need to replace the inlet manifold upper-to-lower gasket, remove the
throttle and cruise control cables, disconnect and plug the 2 water pipes at
the throttle body, use 2 m6 nuts locked together to unscrew the stud
securing the metal heater pipe to the drivers side of the inlet manifold,
catching the spacer washer that's between the pipe bracket and manifold.
Remove 2 8mm bolts securing upper edge of coil packs, undo the 2 8mm lower
coil pack bolts (awkward access)  by about 2 turns to allow the coil packs
to ease rearwards enough to facilitate manifold removal. Now remove 2
central 10mm bolts at front and rear of the inlet manifold, remove 4 10mm
bolts on top of the manifold, ease manifold upwards at the front and rear,
ease front end towards passenger side slightly and lift forwards off engine.
When refitting, be careful not to snag the new gasket, try loosely fitting
the manifold back into place a couple of times until you get the feel for
it. The gasket is expensive for what it is, about £20-odd and only available
from landrover!
Re-fitting is, as they say in all the best comics, the reversal of removal!
Don't over torque the mounting bolts, they'll strip the threads in the lower
half of the manifold.
Badger.
Howie - 30 Oct 2006 22:08 GMT
|> Hi. Thanks for your help here. The system is a Landi system.
|> Fitted by ACC Autogas of Ledbury, Herefordshire.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
|half of the manifold.
|Badger.

Thanks very much for your time with this advice Brian. Much
appreciated. Prob won't be able to tackle it until next week, but
I'll report back here afterwards.

H.
Howie - 04 Nov 2006 18:20 GMT
||> Hi. Thanks for your help here. The system is a Landi system.
||> Fitted by ACC Autogas of Ledbury, Herefordshire.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
|
|H.

OK. And here I am   ;-)

At your suggestion, I had a good check around the joints on all
pipes leading to/from the inlet manifolds. The only noticable
thing that happened was when I squirted some WD40 onto the 2
adjacent joints which are situated at the front of the manifold,
- near side. The pipes seem to be breathers, - one from the
coolant header tank and one from the oil -filler.
Anyway, I squirted some WD40 onto the inlet-manifold end and the
engine dropped revs from its normal 800 to appro 600/650.
So, I tightened up those joints and went for a drive to see if it
stayed the same. After approx 5 mins, the tickover crept back up
to 800-ish again. However, whilst test-driving it and taking much
more notice than in normal driving, I noticed that a lot of the
problem could be to do with the fact that the engine revs don't
drop (retard - I would call it), when you lift you foot off the
accelerator. ie; after completing a gear-change, the revs are
still high (but decreasing). This makes it very difficult to
change up - or down, smoothly.

Perhaps it's a symptom of the same problem?

I discovered that it's impossible to see (never mind, check) the
inlet manifold gasket. I suppose it's under there somewhere?
Bloody V8s. They are a bit scary aren't they?

H.
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Austin Shackles - 04 Nov 2006 20:31 GMT
>I discovered that it's impossible to see (never mind, check) the
>inlet manifold gasket. I suppose it's under there somewhere?
>Bloody V8s. They are a bit scary aren't they?

lovely engine.  I forget which version you've got... but on the hotwire ones
the idle-speed compensation thing seems to mean that it takes a while to
drop back to proper idle sometimes.
Signature

Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
"Festina Lente" (Hasten slowly)  Suetonius (c.70-c.140) Augustus, 25

EMB - 04 Nov 2006 21:27 GMT
> lovely engine.  I forget which version you've got... but on the hotwire ones
> the idle-speed compensation thing seems to mean that it takes a while to
> drop back to proper idle sometimes.

IIRC it's a "feature" that's supposed to help reduce emissions on
over-run or summat like that.

Signature

EMB

Howie - 05 Nov 2006 10:27 GMT
|>I discovered that it's impossible to see (never mind, check) the
|>inlet manifold gasket. I suppose it's under there somewhere?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
|the idle-speed compensation thing seems to mean that it takes a while to
|drop back to proper idle sometimes.

Perhaps I just need to re-learn my gear-changing then. Certainly
more difficult than any car I've had.
I didn't know there were 2 types of V8s on the Disco II. Sorry if
I'm being a bit thick, but what does the 'hotwire' version mean?
Mine is a Jan 2000 model at 3950cc.

I've joined the Disco Owners Club and subscribe to LRO mag. So,
hopefully I will become a bit more knowledgable on my own vehicle
as time goes on!

H.
Badger - 05 Nov 2006 11:06 GMT
> Perhaps I just need to re-learn my gear-changing then. Certainly
> more difficult than any car I've had.
> I didn't know there were 2 types of V8s on the Disco II. Sorry if
> I'm being a bit thick, but what does the 'hotwire' version mean?
> Mine is a Jan 2000 model at 3950cc.

Disco II only has one type of injection system, the Bosch Motronic M.5.2.1
system.
The "Hotwire" is the Bosch-Lucas 14CUX system, and was fitted to all
Rangerover classic 3.9 and disco series 1 3.9 engines (and the early EFI 3.5
series 1 disco's), the predecessor to that being the "Flapper" Bosch-Lucas
4CU system as fitted to the early 3.5 EFI Rangerovers.
GEMS (Lucas-Sagem) was fitted to Rangerover P38 4.0 and 4.6 models up until
around '99, then they also got the Motronic system.
All Motronics are easily recognisable as the inlet manifold is a "bunch of
bananas" with the throttle body positioned to the front of the left hand
rocker cover (facing direction of travel), all earlier systems having a
large central rectangular plenum chamber with the throttle body centrally
mounted (lengthwise) to the left hand side.
Hotwire simply means that the air mass metering is done by measuring the
change in resistance caused by airflow over a heated wire element. Flapper
systems meter air by the airflow causing the deflection of a plate against a
spring. The Gems and Motronic type systems both utilise hotwire type mass
airflow sensing, but the Motronic is fully mapped with a constant fuel
supply pressure, whereas all other systems reference fuel pressure against
inlet manifold pressure (depression) as a means of load compensation. In
theory, metering of fuel is tighter controlled with the Motronic and
therefore emissions control is of improved accuracy, the main reason for the
changes over the years. Motronic and Gems both have features that allow
control of the ignition spark and timing (utilising knock sensors, and
having features such as ignition retard whilst changing gear on an auto for
smoother gearchanges), unlike their predecessors, but the Motronic takes
this one step further by having a constant misfire detection system - it
does this by calibrating itself to a series of drillings around the flywheel
and sensing a misfire by the minute change in rotational speed as a misfire
occurs causing a frequency change at the sensor which is monitoring the
passage of these drillings. All clever stuff, and done to meet OBD2
legislative protocols.
Badger.
Howie - 06 Nov 2006 21:30 GMT
<big snip of V8 engine info>

Bloody 'ell. You know EVERYTHING.

Really interesting stuff. I've even printed it out and put it in
my land file (which is getting noticeably thicker week-by-week).

Thanks v much.
Badger - 05 Nov 2006 01:47 GMT
> At your suggestion, I had a good check around the joints on all
> pipes leading to/from the inlet manifolds. The only noticable
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> inlet manifold gasket. I suppose it's under there somewhere?
> Bloody V8s. They are a bit scary aren't they?

Nope, nice simple engine! ;-)
Just a thought, it sounds almost as if the throttle cable is adjusted too
tight, is there a bit of slack in both the throttle and cruise control
cables to allow the throttle to actually close fully?
Badger.
Howie - 11 Dec 2006 17:06 GMT
<snip>

|> I discovered that it's impossible to see (never mind, check) the
|> inlet manifold gasket. I suppose it's under there somewhere?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
|cables to allow the throttle to actually close fully?
|Badger.

Hi again.

Just in case you thought I have ignored all advice and
disappeared, I haven't. But I couldn't find a leak in the inlet
manifold either.

However, it has just developed an exhaust blow from either the
bottom manifold gasket on the OS manifold, or just below that,
(meaning that the CAT casing might have cracked at that point.

It is going in on wednesday for a proper investigation and
hopefully just a new manifold/cat gasket.
I am hoping that this exhaust leak (which is above the cat
sensor) has been the problem all along and been causing the
fast-running and also the engine-stall when pulling away.

Whadda you reckon?

H.

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Badger - 11 Dec 2006 19:35 GMT
> <snip>
> |>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> H.

Possible, I suppose......
Badger.
Howie - 18 Dec 2006 08:27 GMT
|> <snip>
|> |>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
|Possible, I suppose......
|Badger.

Hi. Just an update:
All exhaust manifold gaskets have been replaced and there is no
exhaust blow now. The CAT isn't damaged at all.
It has halped a little bit regarding the drop in power just on
initial pulling off in 1st gear. But done nothing to help the
tickover problem, which is still running at 750rpm all the time.
I did check the throttle and cc cables and there is plenty of
play in them.
Wierd eh?
Supose it's going to end up going into a dealership in the end to
have is analysed properly. That really hurts!

H.
Howie - 01 Nov 2006 18:36 GMT
|<snip>
||
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
|Fitted by ACC Autogas of Ledbury, Herefordshire.
|www.acc-autogas.co.uk

Sorry. I meant to reply to tell you where I am based. I am in
Brixham, Devon. TQ5 area.

Anyone know whether there's a LANDI LPG specialist near here?

Ta.

H.
Badger - 01 Nov 2006 19:49 GMT
> |<snip>
> ||
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Anyone know whether there's a LANDI LPG specialist near here?

Have a look on the LPGA's installer's list, might be something listed there?
Badger.
Austin Shackles - 02 Nov 2006 08:43 GMT
>Have a look on the LPGA's installer's list, might be something listed there?
>Badger.

and if you're lucky, they might be competent...
Signature

Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
Blue:  The sky is blue for a reason.  Blue light is a source of strength
and harmony in the cosmos.  Create a blue light in your life by
telephoning the police
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

Badger - 02 Nov 2006 10:15 GMT
> >Have a look on the LPGA's installer's list, might be something listed there?
> >Badger.
>
> and if you're lucky, they might be competent...

Hehehe, indeed they might just. I don't know of any other listings for
finding out who deals with what equipment though Austin, hence my
suggestion. Your point is correct though.
I'm still looking towards becoming an LPGA "approved" installer, but only
due to threats to change the MOT test. There is talk (by the LPGA, surprise
surprise!) of a change to include presenting an LPGA certificate before the
MOT test commences, regardless of whether the vehicle is running on LPG or
not. No cert, no test.
Now, I've stated to "certain people" that having that approval does not
necessarily mean that the installation is any better than one done by a
non-member and that the government can't really introduce a change that
forces individuals to become a member of a body that has no legal power,
only an advisory role, and that any such change would be against all fair
trade laws. The reply was that there would indeed need to be some sort of
loophole but no-one has really worked out how to administer such.
No surprises there then, that the LPGA don't really want to spend any time
agreeing on a system that would protect you from having to joint them!
That's the impression I have at the moment, at least.
Badger
AJH - 02 Nov 2006 10:45 GMT
>Now, I've stated to "certain people" that having that approval does not
>necessarily mean that the installation is any better than one done by a
>non-member and that the government can't really introduce a change that
>forces individuals to become a member of a body that has no legal power,
>only an advisory role, and that any such change would be against all fair
>trade laws.

It's already done under the various building regs, CORGI have it
almost airtight and hetas, fensa etc are close behind. A similar thing
is done by nominet. You don't make anything compulsory just require a
certificate for the work and enable the member of a recognised body to
issue the certificate themselves. Anyone else has to submit to an
inspection by the "authority" who charge a few hundred pounds for
their visit.

AJH
hugh - 02 Nov 2006 20:23 GMT
>> >Have a look on the LPGA's installer's list, might be something listed
>there?
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>That's the impression I have at the moment, at least.
>Badger

Can you be more specific, Badger.

Our local MP is Chair of the Parliamentary committee on Transport and if
this is a serious threat I will take it up with her. She has always
taken an interest in alternative fuels and I have fairly regular contact
on other matters.
Signature

hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

Badger - 03 Nov 2006 02:02 GMT
> >> >Have a look on the LPGA's installer's list, might be something listed
> >there?
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> --
> hugh

Copied over from an email received from Mike Chapman, LPGA.

"As regards future legislation we have been lobbying government for years
and
at last there is some movement. The DfT have included a clause in the Road
Safety Bill currently passing through Parliament which will enable the DfT
to bring in a regulation requiring all conversions to be inspected and
certificated. A legal requirement and common backstop will be no MOT without
certificate."

"The DfT have already discounted training all MOT stations for these
inspections on cost benefit grounds and are currently looking at using the
skill base of LPGA Approved Installers, albeit those that apply will have to
meet / be subject to additional criteria."

And from another email, same source,

"As regards legislation, the intention is to use the LPGA approved installer
skill base for VOSA economic reasons but my own  belief it is unlikely that
that it will be exclusively so. I am sure that VOSA will wish the provide
the consumer with an independent alternative for the reasons you state
albeit they will probably not wish to see this alternative in great
numbers.

As mentioned it is also envisaged that those LPGA Approved Installers which
wish to take in the inspection role would be subject to additional
monitoring by VOSA and would need to meet their criteria. In this way any
there would be better insurance of maintaining standards.

It would not matter which fuel the vehicle was presented on for MOT - if an
LPG system was fitted then the MOT on either fuel could not be started with
provision of the Conversion Certificate."

Badger.
Austin Shackles - 03 Nov 2006 08:47 GMT
>The DfT have included a clause in the Road
>Safety Bill currently passing through Parliament which will enable the DfT
>to bring in a regulation requiring all conversions to be inspected and
>certificated. A legal requirement and common backstop will be no MOT without
>certificate."

I ought to take my converted car which was done by an LPGA approved bloke
and see if they'll certify it... *I* wouldn't, for at least one reason I
know of.
Signature

Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
"Something there is that doesn't love a wall."
Robert Frost (1874-1963)

Austin Shackles - 03 Nov 2006 14:45 GMT
>>The DfT have included a clause in the Road
>>Safety Bill currently passing through Parliament which will enable the DfT
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>and see if they'll certify it... *I* wouldn't, for at least one reason I
>know of.

BTW, it's not per se a safety issue, if it were, I'd have altered it.  The
copper gas pipe runs along under the car and passes in front of a jacking
point in such a way that if anyone used the car's own jack on that point,
it'd likely crush the pipe.  Since I don't, it won't.
Signature

Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
"Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
- Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'

hugh - 03 Nov 2006 12:50 GMT
>> >> >Have a look on the LPGA's installer's list, might be something listed
>> >there?
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
>Badger.

Thanks, will take this along at next opportunity.
Signature

hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

Dougal - 03 Nov 2006 22:40 GMT
>>>>>Have a look on the LPGA's installer's list, might be something listed
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>
> Badger.

That describes it nicely - yet another example of those with vested
interests getting their way with a weak and feeble government.

There isn't a safety issue - it's just another opportunity to fleece
another group who will have no way of avoiding it. And, of course, the
government will get its cut as VAT on the inspection and certification
fee. I don't imagine, either, that would be a one time only
certificate on installation or first inspection so even more cause for
complaint.

Any such proposal will inevitably lead to arguments as to what
constitutes an LPG installation. Which items if not present will be
sufficient to render it incompletely/functionally not installed? You
can imagine an installation being carried out in stages with an MOT
coming along in middle. It would be unjust (not that it usually
matters) to deny the MOT if some of the plumbing only had been
installed, for example.
 
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