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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / December 2006http://www.thecarparty.org.uk/
http://www.thecarparty.org.uk/ says it all really, found the link on the uk.rec.cars.4x4 group. Lee D > http://www.thecarparty.org.uk/ > > says it all really, found the link on the uk.rec.cars.4x4 group. > > Lee D hmmmmmmmmm...... stared here: http://www.thecarparty.org.uk/Road_Safety.html "All new drivers must have a minimum of professional tuition before being allowed to be only accompanied by a qualified driver. We support this to be 20 hours tuition. Professional tuition should be extended to include motorway instruction." Right, so someone living the north of Scotland finds a motorway where exactly? "We support the full time adoption of GMT +1 British Summertime and call for an immediate ending of the present system, this measure alone would save lives." Apart from being a highly debateable claim, it's obvious that the writer doesn't live north of Watford - removing BST would leave large areas dark until 11.00am! Some people do work outside....... "We believe that a zero drink drive policy should exist, therefore a complete drink drive ban would be supported and campaigned for." Which has proved totally impractical in countries that have tried it - some alochol can be picked up all over the place in cleaners etc. And anyway, it seems overtiredness now kills more than drinking and driving, and it's not even mentioned. Oh, and getting a free copy of the highway code each time you tax your vehicle. How exactly is that going to be free? Someone's going to pay somewhere - there's no such thing as free! Quite clearly the site has been set up by someone living in the South East who works in a heated, well lit office and is unconcerned about others needs, not making any attempt to think it through. Not very promising at all - or moderate. Richard  Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive >> Professional tuition should be extended to include motorway >> instruction." > > Right, so someone living the north of Scotland finds a motorway > where exactly? Or most of Wales and some bits of England, nearest motorway or dual carrage way to here are 20+ miles away. How ever I do think that some form of practical training ought to be done for motorways and other high speed roads. Even if it's only to drum in "match your speed to the traffic in lane 1 when joining" and "keep to the nearside, except when actually overtaking". >> "We support the full time adoption of GMT +1 British Summertime and >> call for an immediate ending of the present system, this measure >> alone would save lives." > > Apart from being a highly debateable claim, it's obvious that > the writer doesn't live north of Watford And is presumably too young to remember the experiment in the 70's with this. It didn't work then and dark mornings are bad for peoples general state of mind. >> "We believe that a zero drink drive policy should exist, therefore >> a complete drink drive ban would be supported and campaigned for." > > Which has proved totally impractical in countries that have tried > it - some alochol can be picked up all over the place in > cleaners etc. Agreed, and everyone has some alochol naturally from yeasts etc. Perhaps the limit could be lowered to remove the "one pint is OK, or prehaps 2". > And anyway, it seems overtiredness now kills more than drinking and > driving, and it's not even mentioned. Up here age seems to kill and seriously injure more. Something like 80% of the recent deaths on Cumbrias roads have been in the 16 - 25 age group, this is presumably down to lack of experience (or training?) and the invincibilty of youth. TBH I'm not sure what can be done about this, "experience" includes near misses with death, nothing quite like that to reduce your risk taking or slow you down. > Oh, and getting a free copy of the highway code each time you tax > your vehicle. How exactly is that going to be free? And what the is point? It doesn't change that rapidly, I certainly wouldn't read a whole new copy just in case something had changed. Now an update leaflet that just had the changes from the last year would be a good idea. That at least stands a chance of being looked at. SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail <snip> > > Apart from being a highly debateable claim, it's obvious that > > the writer doesn't live north of Watford > > And is presumably too young to remember the experiment in the 70's with > this. It didn't work then and dark mornings are bad for peoples general > state of mind. Indeed. I'd forgotten about that. I do rememebr it being somewhat of a failure though, and everyone wanting to go back to normal. > >> "We believe that a zero drink drive policy should exist, therefore > >> a complete drink drive ban would be supported and campaigned for." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Agreed, and everyone has some alochol naturally from yeasts etc. Perhaps > the limit could be lowered to remove the "one pint is OK, or prehaps 2". There's a fair number of beers where 1 is too much, but having said that 1 of most beers would appear to be ok. 2 is iffy. So just don't have 2! > > And anyway, it seems overtiredness now kills more than drinking and > > driving, and it's not even mentioned. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "experience" includes near misses with death, nothing quite like that to > reduce your risk taking or slow you down. Agreed - experience is just that - it can't be taught - except on Sociology Degrees, of course ;-) Sadly, there comes a point where one just has to give the training and then essenitally hope for the best. It will all go wrong occasionaly, but that's life - I'm sure it doesn't seem like that when ones on the recieving end of bad news though. > > Oh, and getting a free copy of the highway code each time you tax > > your vehicle. How exactly is that going to be free? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > update leaflet that just had the changes from the last year would be a > good idea. That at least stands a chance of being looked at. It would - indeed that would be a good thing to put in the reminder enevelope instead of trying to sell number plates. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive >There's a fair number of beers where 1 is too much, but having said >that 1 of most beers would appear to be ok. 2 is iffy. So just don't >have 2! My theory on almost any normal beer (i.e. up to about 6% ABV) is that 1 pint is OK, 2 is pushing yer luck. Personally, I'd be quite capable of driving after about 5 pints, and maintain a acceptable standard of safety as well. But then there's a lot of me to absorb the booze. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that In Touch: Get in touch with yourself by touching yourself. If somebody is watching, stop touching yourself. from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. || Personally, I'd be quite capable of driving after about 5 pints, and || maintain a acceptable standard of safety as well. But then there's || a lot of me to absorb the booze. Not wishing to challenge your judgement on *either* of those points, :-) but ... Very interesting programme on the box a few years back where they took a group of professional bus drivers and tested their driving ability on an airfield somewhere. The basic test was to drive a bus through a pair of cones. The organisers gave the drivers drinks (Martinis, ffs) and kept moving the cones in and out. There were two tests - first to estimate whether they could get between the cones, and second to actually drive the bus through. The outcome was that the drivers had little difficulty getting between the cones (if it was possible to do so) even after a large number of drinks when the gap was bus width + 1". What went wrong quite early on was their ability to estimate if they could or not. In other words, judgement is impaired long before your driving ability. Which explains why so many people reckon they can drive quite safely after a skinful. In pure vehicle control terms, they probably can, but their brains are telling them they can do things they can't, and therein lies the danger. SignatureRich ============================== 2001 Disco II ES auto 1971 S2a 88" petrol 1991 Transit Camper Take out the obvious to email me. I was working in Belfast in 68-70, and remember the London-inspired 'permanent BST experiment' well -- bleary-eyed kids were walking to school in the dark for weeks. How 'safe' was that? On a more practical note, even if the Home Counties imposed permanent BST on all of the UK, would we expect Dublin to do the same? I would very much doubt it. We would then get to a situation where two countries, forging ever more co-operation after decades of acrimony, end up having to change time zones at the border. It didn't occur back then because IIRC the Irish government followed the experiment as well -- I would suggest that's far less likely to happen now. No, as ever, if it suits the people inside the M25 (who have never experienced REAL darkness), then we'll all have to go along with it. That's democracy, in the land of Magna Carta! GRAEME ALDOUS Yorkshire >I was working in Belfast in 68-70, and remember the London-inspired > 'permanent BST experiment' well -- bleary-eyed kids were walking to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Yorkshire >Hi Group, All this sounds pretty true but how do Norway, Iceland and Finland manage? - what time zone are they on. I know in North Finland it was strange having bright sunlight at 4am in the summer. Alan >All this sounds pretty true but how do Norway, Iceland and Finland manage? - >what time zone are they on. I know in North Finland it was strange having >bright sunlight at 4am in the summer. >Alan not sure - I imagine they have a time zone which has clock noon some time close to local noon though, most people do - it's actually completely irrelevant but it's a long-standing tradition, and I'm buggered if I see why we should use a different TZ just because some bunch of plonkers think we should be the same as central Europe - bear in mind the most of Europe also has "summer time" so if we stuck to the current BST all year then we'd still be out of kilter with Europe for half the year anyway. Since the majority of the UKoGBaNI is west of the Greenwich meridian, clock noon is already earlier than local noon for large parts of the country, without moving it an hour further off. The principal reason for "summer time" (often called "daylight saving time" in other countries) is to minimise the amount of artificial light used during working hours. In the middle of winter, there aren't enough daylight hours to work 8 hours plus an hours' worth of breaks by daylight, however you arrange the clock, so I don't see what's wrong with having proper British GMT. In fact, I bet you could make an equally good argument for having GMT all year round. It ain't broke, why try to fix it? SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero" (sieze today, and put as little trust as you can in tomorrow) Horace (65 - 8 BC) Odes, I.xi.8 > All this sounds pretty true but how do Norway, Iceland and Finland manage? - > what time zone are they on. I know in North Finland it was strange having > bright sunlight at 4am in the summer. Iceland´s at GMT, Norway at GMT+1 and Finland GMT+2. Technically Iceland should be GMT-1, France, Spain , Holland and Belgium should also be on GMT, the rest of Europe is roughly at the right zone. Portugal also sits at GMT -1..... Time is not a political thing. Noon is when the sun is at its highest. Steve > > All this sounds pretty true but how do Norway, Iceland and Finland manage? - > > what time zone are they on. I know in North Finland it was strange having [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Time is not a political thing. Noon is when the sun is at its highest. Yes, the west of Iceland should technically be at GMT-2, noon is at 13:30 in the afternoon. > Yes, the west of Iceland should technically be at GMT-2, noon is at > 13:30 in the afternoon. As far as that ? I hadn´t realised you were that far west. Steve > > Yes, the west of Iceland should technically be at GMT-2, noon is at > > 13:30 in the afternoon. > > As far as that ? I hadn´t realised you were that far west. Reykjavík is at approx. 22°W. >> > Yes, the west of Iceland should technically be at GMT-2, noon is at >> > 13:30 in the afternoon. >> >> As far as that ? I hadn´t realised you were that far west. > >Reykjavík is at approx. 22°W. an hour per 15 degrees, so yes, you'd be an hour and a half off. There are one or 2 split timezones that are somethign like 3½ hours from Greenwich. I forget where, though. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Confidence: Before important work meetings, boost your confidence by reading a few pages from "The Tibetan Book of the Dead" from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. > >> > Yes, the west of Iceland should technically be at GMT-2, noon is at > >> > 13:30 in the afternoon. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > one or 2 split timezones that are somethign like 3½ hours from Greenwich. I > forget where, though. An hour per 15° yes but does that apply to the east of Greenwich as well, is the GMT time zone to the west of 0°long only or does it extend to both the east and west of 0°long? > An hour per 15° yes but does that apply to the east of Greenwich as > well, is the GMT time zone to the west of 0°long only or does it > extend to both the east and west of 0°long? East and west 7.5 deg. Steve >> An hour per 15° yes but does that apply to the east of Greenwich as >> well, is the GMT time zone to the west of 0°long only or does it >> extend to both the east and west of 0°long? > > East and west 7.5 deg. So it is, my new thing for today. B-) SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail > There's a fair number of beers where 1 is too much, but having said > that 1 of most beers would appear to be ok. 2 is iffy. So just don't > have 2! But even after 1 your judgement is impaired. IMHO it would be best to remove the temptation to have "just one", which impairs your judgement, which leads to "just a half" and so on... Drop the limit such that a half took you over and you break that temptation. >>> Oh, and getting a free copy of the highway code ... >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It would - indeed that would be a good thing to put in the reminder > enevelope instead of trying to sell number plates. Now that really is a good idea. Can't see it being taken up though can't make money from it. B-( SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail >But even after 1 your judgement is impaired. IMHO it would be best to >remove the temptation to have "just one", which impairs your judgement, >which leads to "just a half" and so on... Drop the limit such that a half >took you over and you break that temptation. very low limits are unenforceable in practice, though. and for the typical person 1 pint of ordinary-strength ale is not going to make a significant difference. regular heavy drinkers get tolerance to the drug, too, as with most drugs, and thus someone who normally drinks 10 pints a night would doubtless be better able to drive safely after 3 pints than a teetotaller would after 1. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Confidence: Before important work meetings, boost your confidence by reading a few pages from "The Tibetan Book of the Dead" from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. >> But even after 1 your judgement is impaired. IMHO it would be best to >> remove the temptation to have "just one", which impairs your >> judgement, which leads to "just a half" and so on... Drop the limit >> such that a half took you over and you break that temptation. > > very low limits are unenforceable in practice, though. I'm not talking about very low just a bit lower, such that 1 pint (or "unit" will almost certainly take you over. 50mG/100ml blood instead of 80? > and for the typical person 1 pint of ordinary-strength ale is not going > to make a significant difference. I think you'd be surprised. > regular heavy drinkers get tolerance to the drug, too, as with most > drugs, and thus someone who normally drinks 10 pints a night would > doubtless be better able to drive safely after 3 pints than a > teetotaller would after 1. This is the problem. Some people think they can "handle their ale". A slightly lower limit would remove a lot of the ambiguity. SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail > ... > Some people think they can "handle their ale". A > slightly lower limit would remove a lot of the ambiguity. Some people think they can handle their vehicles. Stronger punishment of actual damage done, rather than percieved threat would assist in rearranging priorities. SignatureWilliam Tasso >> ... >> Some people think they can "handle their ale". A [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >actual damage done, rather than percieved threat would assist in rearranging >priorities. now, I agree with that. If a bloke drinks regularly and drives home safely without incident, he loses his licence if caught and over a largely-arbitrary limit. If his neighbour, sober, drives like a tw*t and runs over our tippling friend's dog and kills it he gets sod-all. If he runs over OTF's *child* he might get away with as little as a 6-month ban. He won't even necessarily got to jail. I'd rather see a device for measuring reaction times and judgement than a think that measures breath alcohol. I even designed it: it's got 3 lights on it in a horizontal row, 2 push-buttons left and right and a foot switch on a wire. Place suspected incompetent (for any reason) driver in front of it, if the left light comes on then you press the left button, opposite for right and if the middle one comes on you stand on the footswitch. The lights come on in a random fashion, and the machine measures reaction time. If you're reaction time (on an average of several operations) is above a to-be-determined threshold then you get done for driving while unfit. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" John Donne (1571? - 1631) Devotions, XVII > >> ... > >> Some people think they can "handle their ale". A [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > If you're reaction time (on an average of several operations) is above a > to-be-determined threshold then you get done for driving while unfit. Personaly I think driving with defective eyesight should attract the same penalty as D&D - I would hazard a guess that about 25% of drivers would be off the road straight away! Getting my eyes tested a couple of weeks ago was interesting - I was aware that my eye sight was not good (I went because I could see bugger all at night) - my eyes were ok for driving according to the test, but they are patently not at night. Trouble is, it's not a nice simple nick with headline-catching news worthiness..... Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive beamendsltd <beamendsltd@btconnect.com> uttered summat worrerz funny about: > Trouble is, it's not a nice simple nick with headline-catching > news worthiness..... My last one was a chap who took the side step of the Waterhouses 110 [1], can't go in to detail but rarely comes up as an issue IME. I didn't see the Big white landrover with Dayglo stripes, Blue Four gallon bucket on the roof and ECILOP written all over the front kind of got us wondering. [1] I bet it's a figg'in Terrano now, this was back in 1999 I reckon. Lee D > beamendsltd <beamendsltd@btconnect.com> uttered summat worrerz funny > about: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > [1] I bet it's a figg'in Terrano now, this was back in 1999 I reckon. It is, and it's falling to bits (the doors make more noise than someone being stretched on the rack when opened). I think Lee can probably guess who drives it..... tug-of-war? Why Staffordshire bought Terrano's is still one of the great mysteries (except they got them cheap, probably) - even Horse & Hound magazine described their off-road abilities as being "like driving a Mini through treacle"! > Lee D Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive beamendsltd <beamendsltd@btconnect.com> uttered summat worrerz funny about: > It is, and it's falling to bits (the doors make more noise than > someone being stretched on the rack when opened). I think Lee can > probably guess who drives it..... tug-of-war? Crap in'it. I suffered a drive in the Madely one once... just didn't blow my frock up and put me off working Madely which is sad as it's an area I love, Madely / Ashley / Loggerheads probably as I'm biased being bought up that way though. > Why Staffordshire bought Terrano's is still one of the great > mysteries (except they got them cheap, probably) - even Horse & > Hound magazine described their off-road abilities as being "like > driving a Mini through treacle"! Devolved budgets at their best no doubt. :-( They used to be very much single marque fleets... now when I look in the back yard it's like a battenburg Eurobox shop. First thing that happened during the Big freeze of Jan 2004 was the Driving school Disco got commandered :-) Then the Command team popped out and Hired a couple of Discos from a certain local dealership.... about the only thing that put a smile on my face that day. Lee D Once upon a time in a time long ago, I was so drunk I decided it was unwise to ride my scooter home, so I proceeded to push it along the road instead (dunno if that was legal or not) anyway I was so drunk I fell over and the scooter fell on top of me. I lay like that until some passing motorist stopped to ask if I was OK. "I'm fine, I'm just drunk" said I. Anyway I got up from that ignominious position in the gutter and figured if I couldn't push the thing home safely I had better ride it. And ride it I did, the gyroscopic action of two wheels being more stable than two feet. Mind you I was not more than a mile away from home and I only had one major road to cross using a roundabout to get there. It was probably a foolhardy thing to do, but I was young an foolish then. SignatureLarry Series 3 Rust and Holes > now, I agree with that. If a bloke drinks regularly and drives home > safely [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > If you're reaction time (on an average of several operations) is above a > to-be-determined threshold then you get done for driving while unfit. > Once upon a time in a time long ago, I was so drunk I decided it was unwise > to ride my scooter home, so I proceeded to push it along the road instead [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > cross using a roundabout to get there. It was probably a foolhardy thing to > do, but I was young an foolish then. Ah the stupidity of youth! Many years ago I went to a 21st Birthday Party near Trowbridge. As it was good do (ok, so there was girl there I rather liked) I put the motorbike round the back of the vilage hall, beging assured there would be someone there in the morning so I could get it back. Anyway, a good time was had by all (the girl went very well, but I lost here phone number - arrrggghh!). I got a lift home from Duncan. Next morning I amazed my mother by asking for a lift to go and get the bike back. On the way out I happened to look into the garage, and there was the bike, with my helmet on the seat (I *never* put it there). I dammed sure I never rode it home, but I never did find out how it got there, or how it was put in a locked garage. The looks on mates faces when I asked never did convince me it wasn't a practical joke, and I never have found out what happened - so it must have been aliens. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive >I'm not talking about very low just a bit lower, such that 1 pint (or >"unit" will almost certainly take you over. 50mG/100ml blood instead of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I think you'd be surprised. I don't - I'm aware that it makes a difference. Being too tired makes much more difference, though, IME. >This is the problem. Some people think they can "handle their ale". A >slightly lower limit would remove a lot of the ambiguity. The only credible lower limit is more-or-less none. It's not only the people that think, tolerance to drugs used as a habit is a well-known thing. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" John Donne (1571? - 1631) Devotions, XVII > I don't - I'm aware that it makes a difference. Being too tired makes much > more difference, though, IME. Or having a cold/flu, that's a real impairment to driving but not illegal to drive while under the influenza! SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! >> I don't - I'm aware that it makes a difference. Being too tired makes much >> more difference, though, IME. > >Or having a cold/flu, that's a real impairment to driving but not >illegal to drive while under the influenza! quite. Try driving safely when you're having a sneezing fit. Tiredness is the one most people have done, I'm sure. I know I have - I've driven before now when dangerously tired and got away with through a mixture of the grace of &DEITY and the fact that a large part of driving is learned instinct. I'm not enormously proud of it. These days I do try not to drive when that tired, and if I find that I'm too tired, I pull over and sleep for a bit. On one infamous occasion I drove a stretch of B road which ends at Hathersage, I think, very late at night after being up for 2 days; arrived at destination, slept for about 12 hours on the floor (which ordinarily I can't do). Later, I drove back along the same road, which transpired to have numerous single-lane bits with semi-permanent traffic lights due to the geography getting uppity. I looked at my mate sitting in the passenger seat and said "were all these here the other night?" to which he replied along the lines of "fooked if I know"... to this day I have no idea how I successfully drove it the first time through, but I honestly hadn't consciously seen those traffic lights before. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "There is plenty of time to win this game, and to thrash the Spaniards too" Sir Francis Drake (1540? - 1596) Attr. saying when the Armarda was sighted, 20th July 1588 >>> I don't - I'm aware that it makes a difference. Being too tired makes much >>> more difference, though, IME. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > quite. Try driving safely when you're having a sneezing fit. The wooziness is a real problem, reaction times take a dive when you've got 'flu, reputed to be the equivalent reduction in reaction times to being 3x over the drink-drive limit. > Tiredness is the one most people have done, I'm sure. I know I have Ditto, I used to commute for an hour and a half mostly along the A303 in Wiltshire, and started regularly fighting off sleep to a greater or lesser degree of success. That had to stop, so now I work from home and would rather find a new job than change that. > to this day I have no idea how I successfully drove it the first > time through, but I honestly hadn't consciously seen those traffic > lights before. When I commuted I used to regularly sit at home after work clasping a coffee, nodding off to sleep, trying to remember details about the journey home. It's not surprising that the A303 is littered with flowers tied to posts along the way. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! || Oh, and getting a free copy of the highway code each time you tax || your vehicle. How exactly is that going to be free? Someone's || going to pay somewhere - there's no such thing as free! IRTA "each time you *wax* your vehicle :-) Must get out more. SignatureRich ============================== 2001 Disco II ES auto 1971 S2a 88" petrol 1991 Transit Camper Take out the obvious to email me. >"We support the full time adoption of GMT +1 British Summertime and >call for an immediate ending of the present system, this measure >alone would save lives." hmmm. didn't read that far. they can shpx bss for all of me, then. Why can't these twats see that, at these latitudes, in winter, the decent daylight if you get any through the clouds is only about 7 hours long? feckin' morons. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Blue: The sky is blue for a reason. Blue light is a source of strength and harmony in the cosmos. Create a blue light in your life by telephoning the police from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. > http://www.thecarparty.org.uk/ > > says it all really, found the link on the uk.rec.cars.4x4 group. > > Lee D Try the Association for British Drivers instead, and don´t divide the effort. Steve >http://www.thecarparty.org.uk/ > >says it all really, found the link on the uk.rec.cars.4x4 group. " The lower paid and the disadvantaged are being pushed off of the road by increasing costs" FFS... SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic face by frightening people in the street. from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. |
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