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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / January 2007

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Problems with autobox on 200Tdi Disco (slipping third, stuck third to fourth change, slipping reverse)

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Pantelis Giamarellos - 06 Jan 2007 09:14 GMT
People Hi again,

The autobox on the camel (a 200Tdi 1993 evented  Discovery converted to
autobox) has started developing a problem with its high gears.

It appears that the four gear is reluctant to engage and that third gear is
stuck or slipping.

The vehicle runs nicely at fourth gear with around 3000 rpm at 120 Kph.  But
after a while third gear changes by slipping downwards at the rpm range and
the engine runs at 4000 rpm at 100 Kph with the gearbox not wishing to
change up to fourth gear.

It also has a general feel like a manual gearbox with a very worn clutch.

Gearchange from first to second and second to third is OK.

When the "slipping" and stuck gearchange from third to fourth (not happening
at all that is) is happening the car also has problems with its reverse
gear.
Meaning that when I stop and wish to reverse the engine revs a lot for the
car to actually move back and it also has the "slipping clutch" feel to it.

-------

The autobox was struck with a contaminated ATF problem some years ago which
led to the ATF burning and also chaffing the friction plates.  The ATF was
changed three times, an antislip additive was added and it worked nicely for
about two years.  Then the first gear got stuck (no change to second gear or
upwards). Gearbox was removed and checked.
Friction plates were found to be OK and a spring in the vavles housing was
found to be broken in three pieces.  After that the autobox was re-installed
with almost no problems apart from a reluctance to engage first gear
immediately when very cold and a somewhat bumpy change from first to second
gear.

I have bought a nice secondhand autobox from a 300Tdi Discovery (complete
with torque converter) so most probably I will be replacing the faulty unit
altogether.

But it would be very helpful to know what is the most probably cause for the
"slipping" third gear, stuck third to fourth gear change and "slipping"
reverse problem (all of them not happening until the car is hot and not
happening all the time).

One more thing that was happening was that the kickdown appears to have been
engaging very easily.  When on fourth gear and at around 130 kph if I
pressed the accelerator pedal more ( in order to increase speed) the
kickdown would engage and drop down to third gear (with 4500 rpm at the
engine).  Is this something that can be addressed to by shortening the
kickdown cable's travel (effectively increasing the accelerator pedal's
travel without engaging kick down) and would this be a reason why the third
to fourth gearchange has started to malfunction and the third gear friction
plates most probably got worn out?

Sorry for the big posting and lots of questions but autoboxes are unknown
land and your input is always appreciated and extremely helpful into getting
into grips with things.

Take care and happy New Year.
Pantelis
Lord Austin the Ebullient of Happy Bottomshire - 06 Jan 2007 11:12 GMT
>When the "slipping" and stuck gearchange from third to fourth (not happening
>at all that is) is happening the car also has problems with its reverse
>gear.
>Meaning that when I stop and wish to reverse the engine revs a lot for the
>car to actually move back and it also has the "slipping clutch" feel to it.

I bet that's one of the clutches, but not "A".  Odd, I thought it was in the
book, must be in Rave.

hmmm.  Symptom 9: no 4th gear in "D"

4th-3rd downshift valve stuck
3rd-4th upshift valve stuck
Clutch Brake 4

trouble is the LR book which has a power flow chart for each gear has
numbers for all the clutches and brakes, whereas other people use letters.

However, I can't see a clutch/brake which is common to 4th and R and yet is
not used in other gears. ... hangon yes I can: clutch 5 in the power flow
charts applies to 3rd, 4th and R, but not to 1 and 2.

5 is the second clutch from the front of the box, which is I think the "B"
clutch.  Anybody's guess where clutch brake 4 is...

However,if you've got to the point where clutches are slipping, it's rebuild
time... or replace, as you suggest.

Badger is the expert on these... I've no doubt he can confirm or deny.
Signature

Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
Confidence: Before important work meetings, boost your confidence by
reading a few pages from "The Tibetan Book of the Dead"
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

steve Taylor - 06 Jan 2007 11:19 GMT
> However,if you've got to the point where clutches are slipping, it's rebuild
> time... or replace, as you suggest.

Can one repair their own autobox, out of interest ? Haynes turned
gearbox repair into a region where here be dragons years ago.

Steve
Tom Woods - 06 Jan 2007 12:50 GMT
>> However,if you've got to the point where clutches are slipping, it's rebuild
>> time... or replace, as you suggest.
>
>Can one repair their own autobox, out of interest ? Haynes turned
>gearbox repair into a region where here be dragons years ago.

I'd have thought you would have a fairly good chance of fixing it!
(and if not we can laugh at you when you have bits left over and it
doesnt work afterwards and the question will be answered! ;-) )
steve Taylor - 06 Jan 2007 14:17 GMT
> I'd have thought you would have a fairly good chance of fixing it!
> (and if not we can laugh at you when you have bits left over and it
> doesnt work afterwards and the question will be answered! ;-) )

No, todays project is the Diff chop / rotate, or there won´t be an
article in the 101 magazine.

Steve
Dr_D - 07 Jan 2007 01:33 GMT
steve Taylor <steve@thetaylorfamily.org.uk> uttered summat worrerz
funny about:

>> I'd have thought you would have a fairly good chance of fixing it!
>> (and if not we can laugh at you when you have bits left over and it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Steve

Bit drastic!

Where are you at with the Ambi modifications these days?

Lee
steve Taylor - 07 Jan 2007 14:25 GMT
> Where are you at with the Ambi modifications these days?
>
> Lee

Waiting for some decent weather ! We´ve got the engine rebuilt, and
ready to mount on a rebuilt gearbox.

Steve
Lord Austin the Ebullient of Happy Bottomshire - 06 Jan 2007 19:39 GMT
>> However,if you've got to the point where clutches are slipping, it's rebuild
>> time... or replace, as you suggest.
>
>Can one repair their own autobox, out of interest ? Haynes turned
>gearbox repair into a region where here be dragons years ago.

yes, but autos tend to be a bit fussy about cleanliness.

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Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
Too Busy:  Your mind is like a motorway.  Sometimes it can be jammed by
too much traffic.  Avoid the jams by never using your mind on a
Bank Holiday weekend.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

Badger - 06 Jan 2007 11:25 GMT
> >When the "slipping" and stuck gearchange from third to fourth (not happening
> >at all that is) is happening the car also has problems with its reverse
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I bet that's one of the clutches, but not "A".  Odd, I thought it was in the
> book, must be in Rave.

It's possible for the "A" clutch to wear quite badly but still drive ok in
the lower gears, just slipping in the higher gears same as a normal worn
clutch on a manual box.

> hmmm.  Symptom 9: no 4th gear in "D"
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> 5 is the second clutch from the front of the box, which is I think the "B"
> clutch.  Anybody's guess where clutch brake 4 is...

"C" or "C1", 4th from the front I think, I'd need to go and dig out the
books to confirm.

> However,if you've got to the point where clutches are slipping, it's rebuild
> time... or replace, as you suggest.

Indeed. Sounds like it is generally well worn. The "hanging in 1st" symptom
is indicative of the governor unit in the rear of the 'box sticking, no
doubt due to some disturbed crud or debris while all the flushing was being
carried out - it's virtually impossible to get all the wear particles out of
the 'box just by flushing alone.

> Badger is the expert on these... I've no doubt he can confirm or deny.

Thanks Austin, I wouldn't claim to be an expert though, just a good working
knowledge and a fair bit of stripping/rebuilding experience.
Badger.
Pantelis Giamarellos - 06 Jan 2007 14:01 GMT
Badger and Austin thanks for your input and replies.

It appears the car will go to the mechanic to have the autobox, torque
converter and transfer box (the autobox came together with a BW) replaced.

Will let you know of how it comes out.

I have also just finished adjusting the kickdown cable so that it allows a
bit more travel to the accelerator cable/pedal without the kickdown
engaging.

Thanks again.
Pantelis

> > >When the "slipping" and stuck gearchange from third to fourth (not
> happening
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> knowledge and a fair bit of stripping/rebuilding experience.
> Badger.
Lord Austin the Ebullient of Happy Bottomshire - 06 Jan 2007 19:42 GMT
>"C" or "C1", 4th from the front I think, I'd need to go and dig out the
>books to confirm.

it's a pity the schematic which relates to the power flow diagrams uses it's
own set of numbers which don't appear to be translated into the ABCD etc.
which are used in the exploded pictures of the box.

The power flow diagrams are handy as an aid to diagnosing faults.

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Travel The Galaxy!  Meet Fascinating Life Forms...
------------------------------------------------\  
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