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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / May 2007

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Neil Brownlee - 22 May 2007 16:33 GMT
Didn't think they would listen.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6678915.stm

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Neil

John Williamson - 22 May 2007 16:43 GMT
> Didn't think they would listen.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6678915.stm

Do they ever?

How about a system which inescapably means the more fuel your car uses
(By being in a traffic jam, for instance), & the more you travel, the
more you pay?

Sorry, they've ignored that one this time. We already use it:-/ (Fuel Duty)

All road pricing will do will be to increase wage demands to account for
the extra cost of getting to work. (IMHO)

Next proposition will be that you have to prove that you *need* to own a
car. Now that would make sense. ( Again, IMHO)

They'd likely not go for it, though. They'd lose too much revenue.

Tciao for Now!

John.
Austin Shackles - 22 May 2007 17:49 GMT
>All road pricing will do will be to increase wage demands to account for
>the extra cost of getting to work. (IMHO)

not to mention the price rises in *everything* 'cos transport rates and
production costs will go up.
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Tim Jones - 22 May 2007 16:54 GMT
>Didn't think they would listen.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6678915.stm

The devil will be in the detail. Hopefully there will be at least a
few benefits.

Or am I being to optimistic?
Austin Shackles - 22 May 2007 17:52 GMT
>>Didn't think they would listen.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Or am I being to optimistic?

I fear so.  I've yet to see any action by this lot or indeed the lot before
that actually reduces the overall tax burden.

little-heralded bit of legislation that's upcoming apparently: all school
transport to be done by licensed hire vehicles.  Of course, the people doing
this haven't thought about the resultant large increase in cost.  Speaking
for Carmarthenshire, it will have no benefit whatever in terms of safety
over the current system.  
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Nige - 22 May 2007 18:28 GMT
>>> Didn't think they would listen.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> increase in cost.  Speaking for Carmarthenshire, it will have no
> benefit whatever in terms of safety over the current system.

Well, I went down the M6 toll today, f.cking great it was, hardly any
cars & no trucks.

I cant help but think what a stupid design the toll system is on that
road, why not just build the toll botths at the start of the thing &
then they wouldn't have to build off ramp booths.

Daft, but great.

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Nige

Subaru WRX (54)
Land Rover Discovery II (2001)
BMW GS1200 (2007)
Honda CBR900RR Fireblade (1997)

Darren Griffin - PocketGPSWorld.Com - 22 May 2007 19:19 GMT
> Well, I went down the M6 toll today, f.cking great it was, hardly any
> cars & no trucks.
>
> I cant help but think what a stupid design the toll system is on that
> road, why not just build the toll botths at the start of the thing &
> then they wouldn't have to build off ramp booths.

Because there is more than one exit!  If you paid at the beginning how
do you cater for those that only wish to trvale to the first exit a few
miles up the road?

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Nige - 22 May 2007 19:35 GMT
>> Well, I went down the M6 toll today, f.cking great it was, hardly
>> any cars & no trucks.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> a
> few miles up the road?

Who cares, thats what they do in Spain. TBH, you shouldn't, I'm sure
they could have done it with electronics rather than all that building
& staff.

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Nige

Subaru WRX (54)
Land Rover Discovery II (2001)
BMW GS1200 (2007)
Honda CBR900RR Fireblade (1997)

Tim Jones - 22 May 2007 21:22 GMT
>>>Didn't think they would listen.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I fear so.  I've yet to see any action by this lot or indeed the lot before
>that actually reduces the overall tax burden.

I'd stand a bit of extra tax if it could be structured in such a way
as to discourage folks from long commutes to work.  Anything that has
the potential to ease already crazy rural property prices is good
IMHO.
Ian Rawlings - 23 May 2007 06:25 GMT
> I'd stand a bit of extra tax if it could be structured in such a way
> as to discourage folks from long commutes to work.  Anything that has
> the potential to ease already crazy rural property prices is good
> IMHO.

The problem with that of course is that a lot of people who live in
the countryside but work in the towns aren't the wealthy middle-class
lot that everyone hates despite them shouldering almost all of the tax
burden.  Rural jobs are hard to come by so those on lower incomes
would be priced out of the countryside and into the towns, which is
what is already happening to a degree so it would just get worse.

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Tim Jones - 23 May 2007 09:35 GMT
>> I'd stand a bit of extra tax if it could be structured in such a way
>> as to discourage folks from long commutes to work.  Anything that has
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>would be priced out of the countryside and into the towns, which is
>what is already happening to a degree so it would just get worse.

It's an interesting and very complex problem and one which I'd love to
discuss in more depth. Sadly after inadvertantly treading on a few
toes over the weekend I think I'll "take the fifth" and shut up ;(

Regards

Tim Jones
Austin Shackles - 23 May 2007 09:47 GMT
>> I'd stand a bit of extra tax if it could be structured in such a way
>> as to discourage folks from long commutes to work.  Anything that has
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>would be priced out of the countryside and into the towns, which is
>what is already happening to a degree so it would just get worse.

nowt new.  it's been happening for about a hundred years.
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Tim Jones - 23 May 2007 10:40 GMT
>>> I'd stand a bit of extra tax if it could be structured in such a way
>>> as to discourage folks from long commutes to work.  Anything that has
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>nowt new.  it's been happening for about a hundred years.

It has accelerated in very recent times.  We now the sort of situation
where a commuter travels 40 odd miles from here to Brum and on the way
meets the farmworker who would once have lived in his cosy country
cottage travelling in the opposite direction as he commutes out from
the tiny in town ex council house that is the best he can afford.

Add in the fact that the commuters cottage is very often an entirely
new hous ebuilt on the site of the perfectly good cottage that they
demolished just so they could have something bigger and theres
something tragically wrong here.

There are no easy answers, but discouraging commuting may just do a
little bit.  We need some sort of answers and some of us aren't going
to like them I guess ;(
Ian Rawlings - 23 May 2007 11:03 GMT
> There are no easy answers, but discouraging commuting may just do a
> little bit.  We need some sort of answers and some of us aren't going
> to like them I guess ;(

The reason there are no easy answers is because there's no simplistic
situation.  It's not the commuter in the countryside displacing the
farm worker, there's a whole shitload more to it than that, as a
result of this there's not even a single "it" to complain about,
e.g. another side is cheap affordable housing in rural areas eating
the countryside and turning merging villages into identikit towns.  If
there's a single cause it's population increase, which is the root of
much of all such issues.  My own village is about to sprout several
new identikit housing estates to add to the ones that appeared in
recent years, and is now joined together with the neighbouring
village.  I don't give much of a toss but the locals don't want it,
but at the same time don't want their kids to have to move to town.

Plus of course I hear of villages in holiday destinations where
complaints about houses being bought for inflated sums so that locals
can't afford them, well it's the locals who sell them to the rich
second-home bods, and then go and buy an expensive house in a village
somewhere and get moaned about by the residents of the new village!

We seem to be an island of scapegoats ;-)

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Tim Jones - 23 May 2007 11:17 GMT
>> There are no easy answers, but discouraging commuting may just do a
>> little bit.  We need some sort of answers and some of us aren't going
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>second-home bods, and then go and buy an expensive house in a village
>somewhere and get moaned about by the residents of the new village!

I'd have to beg to differ for our area at least, few people take the
decision to sell their home just to cash in. Most of the sales are the
elderly, dieing or moving closer to the shops, there are plenty of
youngsters that would love the property but just get priced out of the
chance. It doesn't help when some fancy country living type magazine
does surveys that highlight areas of the country with comparitively
low incomes as highly desirable palces to live ;(

>We seem to be an island of scapegoats ;-)

I still tend to think that a gloriously simple starting point would be
to include the true cost of housing in the headline inflation figure.

We seem to have a strange national double standard here.  The cost of
food, light, heat and water can't be allowed to rise  without a major
uproar, whilst we seem quite blase about spiralling house prices.
Good nutrition and the ability to keep warm are obviously important
and no-one should be unable to afford them, but the omision of the
actual physical roof over our heads from this calculation of basic
values astounds me.

Aren't folks starnge ;)
Cyberwraith - 23 May 2007 11:37 GMT
>>> There are no easy answers, but discouraging commuting may just do a
>>> little bit.  We need some sort of answers and some of us aren't going
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Aren't folks starnge ;)

I would guess that a lot of the 'office' work could be done on computers?
That being the case why can it not be done from home, via the internet? This
would cut down on a huge number of daily commutes. Even if not doing office
type work, I used to work for the electric company. They were looking into a
system where I got up at home, logged in, read my daily callouts etc and got
on with it. This thieving government at one time announced we were going to
be brought into the 21st century via the broadband revolution etc. Well use
the bloody thing. Pricing the poorer off the road is not the answer and
never will be.
Ian Rawlings - 23 May 2007 12:03 GMT
> I would guess that a lot of the 'office' work could be done on computers?
> That being the case why can it not be done from home, via the internet? This
> would cut down on a huge number of daily commutes.

I actually put one of them thar no.10 petitions up saying just that
some time ago, call centre workers and other such people, in fact most
who do desk jobs, could work from home.  Of course you then get the
issue of people heating their homes all day rather than collecting
into one large office which is heated, so using more heat per person..

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/homeworking/

The petition closed now, no answer so far, but only got 209
signatories but then I didn't spam it across a million forums like
others do.

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beamendsltd - 23 May 2007 12:20 GMT
> > I would guess that a lot of the 'office' work could be done on computers?
> > That being the case why can it not be done from home, via the internet? This
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> signatories but then I didn't spam it across a million forums like
> others do.

Having the option of working from home while empolyed by DEC, I can
say that unless I needed to do something (doctors etc) I aways
went to work (Portsmouth to Reading) rather than stay at home. I
think a better idea would be to provide some form of "shared work
place" in the locality where anyone can can telecommute, that way
avoiding the isolation, providing social interaction and solving
your heaing/lighting problem. Of course, that would need a lot of
thought as to how it would be funded (half the cost of commuting,
thus putting more wages into pockets?), and companies would have
to trust their staff not to interract too much (on many levels!)

Richard

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Ian Rawlings - 23 May 2007 12:32 GMT
> Having the option of working from home while empolyed by DEC, I can
> say that unless I needed to do something (doctors etc) I aways
> went to work (Portsmouth to Reading) rather than stay at home.

For me it's the other way around, but it doesn't work for everyone
especially if they like jawing a lot!  But email and IM clients, plus
the phone and even IP phones like skype can help on that front.  I
taught someone how to do parts of my job from 70 miles away, easy to
do with most desk jobs.

> I think a better idea would be to provide some form of "shared work
> place" in the locality where anyone can can telecommute, that way
> avoiding the isolation, providing social interaction and solving
> your heaing/lighting problem.

Such ideas have been tried, but in the end the lack of willingness for
employers to allow large-scale telecommuting has normally killed the
idea off.  In my experience that's always been the biggest hurdle, the
company not being willing to allow people to work from home
long-term.  I wasn't allowed to but I did it anyway and they couldn't
sack me so they just had to put up with it.

> Of course, that would need a lot of
> thought as to how it would be funded (half the cost of commuting,
> thus putting more wages into pockets?), and companies would have
> to trust their staff not to interract too much (on many levels!)

Less wage rises might help, the company couldn't afford to increase my
wages so I stopped coming into work, and saved myself £200 per month,
which works out as a £2,400 wage rise just on fuel costs alone.  The
extra time gained and stress saved meant that I turned down another
position in a london-based company that would have paid me well over
£10,000 more but I'd have had to commute every day to London.  Sod
that.

Then there's health costs, I've had just a few days off sick since
working from home, if you've got cold, the sh.ts or 'flu it's quite
easy to still carry on your job at home.  So the company gains quite a
bit, as does the worker.

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Larry - 25 May 2007 23:55 GMT
You know what if every car except for land rovers were banned, there would
be a lot less congestion and pollution :)

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Larry

Series 3 Rust and Holes

> I would guess that a lot of the 'office' work could be done on computers?
> That being the case why can it not be done from home, via the internet?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> broadband revolution etc. Well use the bloody thing. Pricing the poorer
> off the road is not the answer and never will be.
Cyberwraith - 26 May 2007 12:38 GMT
> You know what if every car except for land rovers were banned, there would
> be a lot less congestion and pollution :)
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> broadband revolution etc. Well use the bloody thing. Pricing the poorer
>> off the road is not the answer and never will be.

The guy on TV last night from Manchester stated that they would ask the
people of Manchester what we thought. Well a couple of months back the
Evening News did just that via an online poll, guess what the answer was?
Only these people did not shut down the poll, like certain others who claim
to listen to the public.
beamendsltd - 26 May 2007 13:36 GMT
> > You know what if every car except for land rovers were banned, there would
> > be a lot less congestion and pollution :)
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Only these people did not shut down the poll, like certain others who clam
> to listen to the public.

The clever ones just word the poll very carefully to get the answer
they want, e.g. banks customer service satisfaction surveys *never*
give you the option to say you think ther service is terrible in some
way, they only ask you to answer questions that presume you accept
the current service is the best model on offer.

The BBC pulled (without comment) a "Have Your Say" topic on health
discrimination when it went very badly wrong (i.e. real-world people
started answering), not even offering the archive as they usually do
(or at least hiding it - I can't find it).

Richard

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Rich B - 26 May 2007 14:45 GMT
> The BBC pulled (without comment) a "Have Your Say" topic on health
> discrimination when it went very badly wrong (i.e. real-world people
> started answering), not even offering the archive as they usually do
> (or at least hiding it - I can't find it).

Aha!  Someone else with not enough to do at work!  (Yes, I'm kidding.)  I
have seen some of my posts to HYS that the BBC have rejected, and I can't
for the life of me see what house rules I have broken.  One pointed out that
Israel used to be spelled P-a-l-e-s-t-i-n-e, and the other was anti-Bliar,
using that spelling.  You get the picture.

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beamendsltd - 26 May 2007 15:40 GMT
> > The BBC pulled (without comment) a "Have Your Say" topic on health
> > discrimination when it went very badly wrong (i.e. real-world people
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Israel used to be spelled P-a-l-e-s-t-i-n-e, and the other was anti-Bliar,
> using that spelling.  You get the picture.

I'm surprised you got rejected for those - have a look at the McDonalds
one (that McDaonalds McJob PR stunt went *very* badly wrong) - some of
the stuff I'd never dreamed of having attempting - "McCrap" and the like.
I always put a stange word in now, as I've noticed that some of my more
scathing efforts have not been moderated for a long time, then appear
in the original time order, and I can then realistically search for
them. My "Why Is America Unpopular" did get though did get rejected
though, I can't see why - I only mentioned that it would be difficult
to jealous of a country that leaves wheelchair-bound people to drown
because they are poor ;-)[1]

I usually go on there when I'm calming dowm from yet another clown
making out that putting something in the post "only costs a jiffy bag -
20p" - it's good therapy, and surprising to find out how many feel
the same about any given subject.

Richard

[1] Had another one this morning - "Paddocks do it for a fiver", excpet
it's not listed on their site........still avoiding replying for a
while, even though I've counted to 1,000,109 so far...

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Ian Rawlings - 26 May 2007 16:14 GMT
> [1] Had another one this morning - "Paddocks do it for a fiver", excpet
> it's not listed on their site........still avoiding replying for a
> while, even though I've counted to 1,000,109 so far...

You need a FAQ, "Paddocks do it for a fiver --- Well buy it from
bloody paddocks then!"

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BeamEnds - 26 May 2007 17:28 GMT
> > [1] Had another one this morning - "Paddocks do it for a fiver", excpet
> > it's not listed on their site........still avoiding replying for a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> --
> Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

I'm sorely tempted.......

Richard
Austin Shackles - 29 May 2007 15:14 GMT
>> > [1] Had another one this morning - "Paddocks do it for a fiver", excpet
>> > it's not listed on their site........still avoiding replying for a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>I'm sorely tempted.......

Or, of course...

"Paddocks do it for a fiver... but /I/ have it in stock!"
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Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
Travel The Galaxy!  Meet Fascinating Life Forms...
------------------------------------------------\  
  >>  http://www.schlockmercenary.com/  <<      \  ...and Kill them.
a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too!

beamendsltd - 29 May 2007 15:48 GMT
> >> > [1] Had another one this morning - "Paddocks do it for a fiver", excpet
> >> > it's not listed on their site........still avoiding replying for a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> "Paddocks do it for a fiver... but /I/ have it in stock!"

Trouble is Sods Law will immediately take effect  ;-)

Richard

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Rich B - 26 May 2007 16:29 GMT
>>> The BBC pulled (without comment) a "Have Your Say" topic on health
>>> discrimination when it went very badly wrong (i.e. real-world people
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> wrong) - some of the stuff I'd never dreamed of having attempting -
> "McCrap" and the like.

Ahbut - that's because it's having a go at a global corporation, which is
always OK, whatever the language.  My anti-US posts (anti the US policy in
Iraq, not Merkins personally) seem to get rejected every time.  Also, I am
always very surprised at how many Merkins seem to be posting there.  Some
topics, half the posters are from Georgia or somewhere.  Hey guys, it's
bbc.co.UK.  We don't need to hear how wonderful you are and how grateful we
all should be.

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Rich B
Bandit 1200S
Take out the obvious to email me.

BeamEnds - 26 May 2007 17:33 GMT
On May 26, 4:29 pm, "Rich B"
<richardTHEOBVIOUSbrook...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > In message <5bqrupF2tgir...@mid.individual.net>
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> bbc.co.UK.  We don't need to hear how wonderful you are and how grateful we
> all should be.

Don't scare them off! The alternative version of WWII is always good
fun. I see on the TV that Hollywood has decided that the US invented
air warfare in WWI now, thereby winning that one too. Excellent stuff!

> --
> Rich B

Richard
William Black - 26 May 2007 20:07 GMT
> Don't scare them off! The alternative version of WWII is always good
> fun. I see on the TV that Hollywood has decided that the US invented
> air warfare in WWI now, thereby winning that one too. Excellent stuff!

I caught that clip on the TV tonight as well.

It all looked terribly unreal and 'CGI'  even on TV, which is very
forgiving.

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William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Ian Rawlings - 26 May 2007 17:49 GMT
> Ahbut - that's because it's having a go at a global corporation, which is
> always OK, whatever the language.  My anti-US posts (anti the US policy in
> Iraq, not Merkins personally) seem to get rejected every time.

To be honest I don't think that's enough to get your stuff rejected,
there's plenty of anti-US posts, it's more likely to be that they have
rant quotas that need a rough balance of each side of an argument even
if one side is overwhelmingly represented.  I've only ever had one
published that I remember and don't bother any more, but the ones that
didn't get posted weren't much different from loads of other ones that
did.  They seem to get loads of posts so someone has to wade through
them all and post representatives ones, and given the volume they're
bound to get they won't all get put up.

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Rich B - 26 May 2007 18:24 GMT
>> Ahbut - that's because it's having a go at a global corporation,
>> which is always OK, whatever the language.  My anti-US posts (anti
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> them all and post representatives ones, and given the volume they're
> bound to get they won't all get put up.

Yeah, guess you're right.  At least the new system shows how many you've had
published, how many rejected and so on, so it's fairly transparent.  I agree
that a lot must be rejected if there are shedloads on one side of a topic -
but I would have thought that if 98% of posters are on one side of a debate,
the % of posts should reflect that.  Balance should not be sought by giving
equal prominence to unequal propositions.  But then, I've lost faith with
the BBC's supposed neutrality over the last 10 years.

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Tim Jones - 27 May 2007 17:56 GMT
>You know what if every car except for land rovers were banned, there would
>be a lot less congestion and pollution :)

And I'd be able to sell my Landrovers for a small  fortune and
emigrate ;)
Ian Rawlings - 23 May 2007 11:55 GMT
> I'd have to beg to differ for our area at least, few people take the
> decision to sell their home just to cash in.

No they don't but what I meant is that the seller has the option of
selling at much below the market rate,     but of course they'd be a fool
to do so because they'd then need a similarly alturistic seller so
they could buy another place to live in!  Some kind of co-operative
effort amongst the less well off might help but getting it started
would be very hard.  Plus it doesn't solve the problem of increasing
population in rural areas as the old folk don't die quickly enough to
keep up the the sprog-droppers.

> We seem to have a strange national double standard here.

Double-standards are totally rife.  We expect perfection from our own
country and government and wax lyrical about other countries who "get
it right", as long as you don't put them under the same scrutiny that
we put our own under.  We think cheap rural housing is a must but
please build it elsewhere, and no I want lots of loot for my house
please, we want a nice quite area to bring up our kids, which of
course immediately ruins the nice quite area and so on.

> The cost of food, light, heat and water can't be allowed to rise
> without a major uproar, whilst we seem quite blase about spiralling
> house prices.

There's quite a lot of grumbling about house prices regarding
first-time buyers and the difficultly of finding houses in London for
essential workers who aren't wealthy.  

> Good nutrition and the ability to keep warm are obviously important
> and no-one should be unable to afford them, but the omision of the
> actual physical roof over our heads from this calculation of basic
> values astounds me.

It's rare for people to have to sleep rough in this country, the
homeless are very small in number and are normally the real basket
cases who need locking up.  Back in the 1990s I was homeless for about
3 months but at the time there was plenty of empty housing and
squatter's rights still existed, not sure about how it is these days.
Squatter's rights were bought into existence because of real problems
with homelessness and the large amount of derelict or abandoned
housing that was perfectly suitable for desperate people to live in,
despite high house prices you don't see legions of street waifs
begging for food, just a few around christmas time who mysteriously
don't need to beg at any other time..

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beamendsltd - 23 May 2007 11:51 GMT
> >>> I'd stand a bit of extra tax if it could be structured in such a way
> >>> as to discourage folks from long commutes to work.  Anything that has
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> little bit.  We need some sort of answers and some of us aren't going
> to like them I guess ;(

A postitive attitude from the planners is the first step. While it
might be nicey-nicey for villages (ours wins Britain In Bloom most
years), there has to be industry. Our village has a small industrial
estate at one end (proper industrial, not imported teddy bear
distributors and so-called "country" shops) which keps the locals
in work, in the village, and the townies out - why, who knows, thus
keeping the village alive. Belle mixers are slap bang in the middle
of the Peak Park providing dozens of jobs, but were it not for the
owner being prepared to fight his corner it would have gone a long
time ago. Planners are supposed, by Goverment edict, to be encouraging
rural enterprise, but they pay far more attention the wingers going on
about the value of their property than they do to people who live and
work there, the very ones using the village facillities.
We also have loads of quarries, and there is constant winging
(mostlty from incomers) about lorries and the landscape being
ruined, despite the thousands of jobs quarrying supports, and the
fact that the whole lanscape that they love so much has been created
by quarrying in the first place.
We have 4 pubs in the village (one each!) for th time being, a shop
and a butcher. They are kept going by the very people the wingers
are trying to put out of jobs, as the village is a real, working
village, not all pertty-pretty and full (or rather empty) of
weekenders or away-all-day types who pride themselves of buying
their shopping cheaply in the supermarket on the way home.
Then there's the social side of it - I keep seeing loonies on
the telly who "get a better job" to "improve their lifestyle",
and then leave for work at 5.00am, returning at 9.00pm and
somehow think this benefits their kids - yet they never see their
kids in the week, and often live in ghost vilages with no life
as they are deserted; the shop, pub, school, village hall etc
all having gone. Quite how that improves anyones life is beyond
me.

Richard

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Austin Shackles - 23 May 2007 13:29 GMT
>(mostlty from incomers) about lorries and the landscape being
>ruined, despite the thousands of jobs quarrying supports, and the
>fact that the whole lanscape that they love so much has been created
>by quarrying in the first place.

And I'll be the whingers have nice new shiney gravel drives... we all use
quarry products, like it or not.  I've very little time for the nimby
attitude in this instance.
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beamendsltd - 23 May 2007 14:17 GMT
> >(mostlty from incomers) about lorries and the landscape being
> >ruined, despite the thousands of jobs quarrying supports, and the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> quarry products, like it or not.  I've very little time for the nimby
> attitude in this instance.

The worst ones are usually those with the 83 room extension on their
"cottage", built with local stone....

Richard

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Tim Jones - 23 May 2007 14:26 GMT
>> >(mostlty from incomers) about lorries and the landscape being
>> >ruined, despite the thousands of jobs quarrying supports, and the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>The worst ones are usually those with the 83 room extension on their
>"cottage", built with local stone....

Thats not an extension, they usually demolish the original send the
stone to the tip and then rebuild a whole new mansion with new stone.
Its unusual for them to care where the stone comes from ;(
beamendsltd - 23 May 2007 17:23 GMT
> >> >(mostlty from incomers) about lorries and the landscape being
> >> >ruined, despite the thousands of jobs quarrying supports, and the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> stone to the tip and then rebuild a whole new mansion with new stone.
> Its unusual for them to care where the stone comes from ;(

It's the large cottage that's the irony - by definition a cottage
can't be large! One of the few good things about being in a
conservation area on the edge of the Peak Park is that the stone
is usually specified in the detailed planning permission. Inside the
Park, the specify which quarry it must come from (well, almost...).

Richard

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Austin Shackles - 23 May 2007 12:59 GMT
>There are no easy answers, but discouraging commuting may just do a
>little bit.  We need some sort of answers and some of us aren't going
>to like them I guess ;(

Unfortunately, I seriously doubt that any government scheme will actually
achieve anything other than to add to the burden of the least able to pay.

It shouldn't be necessary for a large slice of the workforce to commute *at
all*.  But they do, still.  

I agree about the price thing.  However, for the last 100 years or so the
agricultural industry has been getting increasingly mechanised and automated
to the point where 1 person now runs a farm that used to employ 100, and
while most of this happened a long time ago, it's still ongoing even in your
and my working lifetime - take hay bales, for example - when you and I first
started working with 'em small bales were the norm, most often stacked and
dealt with by hand and big round bales were unusual.  Now it's unusual to
find anyone making small bales, apart from to sell to the horsey types, and
mostly handled by machine I expect at that.
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Hirsty's - 22 May 2007 17:19 GMT
> Didn't think they would listen.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6678915.stm

What an excellent idea ! I wonder how much the charge is to drive over No.10
in a Challenger or how much to blue light to AE or the charge to ministers
in their gas guzzling luxury perks.
Perhaps they wont be able to afford the protection vehicle for politicians
in their convoys    :-)))
Nige - 22 May 2007 18:27 GMT
> Didn't think they would listen.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6678915.stm

Thats inflation going upwards due to the fact all things on the roads
will cost miles more. Then a nice bit of interest rate rises. Great,
c.nts.

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Adam Swire - 22 May 2007 19:36 GMT
> Didn't think they would listen.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6678915.stm

Shouldn't worry about it too much. Not for a while anyway. It will be
largely unworkable. There are 20 million vehicles on the roads and any
system that tries to log the movement of this many vehicles will struggle.
The amount of data is huge! Governments are very bad at installing and
running large computer systems and this one will be the biggest yet.

If they use GPS tracking then these have already been subverted by dodgy
truckers who are sent on pre-planned routes. At it's most basic just wrap
the antenna in tin foil and it can't get a signal. I'm sure enterprising
hackers will find a better way by then anyway. Also as owners of many sat
navs will attest, they can loose the signal all by themselves, in built up
areas or tree lined routes for example. A GPS based system will need someway
of sending the information back to base which will lead to further
vulnerabilities.

If they install toll booths then the cost will be astronomical and will only
concentrate on the main routes. They will have to be manned so that will add
to the costs. What about foriegn registered cars? All you'd have to do is
buy and register a car in Ireland and then drive for free!

I really hope it fails as I do between 80 and 100 thousand miles per year
and my boss would be skint if it came in!

A
vertuas - 23 May 2007 19:28 GMT
20 million????

surely there are more than that?

there are more than 55 million address on record, if each has a single
vehicle, that is 55 million.

Commercial address may have lots and most households have more than one!

>> Didn't think they would listen.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> A
mark - 23 May 2007 22:17 GMT
>20 million????
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Commercial address may have lots and most households have more than one!

Http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/doc/press_stats/vehicles_stats_aag.xls
http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/doc/press_stats/vehicle_taxed_class_body.xls
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Mark Roberts

steve Taylor - 23 May 2007 22:40 GMT
> 20 million????
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Commercial address may have lots and most households have more than one!

There are 61 million people in the UK, a lot of them live together. We,
for example,  have three cars and only two drivers. How many can we
drive at once ? If you look at the actual number of people who can ever
be on the roads at once, like only those over 17, and under 75  we have
to be pretty close to the saturation point already, assuming we can rein
in the stupid levels of immigration.

Steve
Larry - 25 May 2007 23:52 GMT
What really gets me though is the bastards really want to screw you, because
by leaving it to a certain handful local authorities to pioneer this, you
can be sure that neither will VED be abolished, nor fuel duty lowered to
take account of the supposedly more rational way of paying, no no way, this
is just a new form of council tax, like the extortion they will charge for
the bins and all.

And those bastards in the West Midlands who have not been able to run a
decent service since the demise of Midland Red and the individual
corporation transport undertakings will profit and grow fat from it, while
nothing else improves.

What will I do about it, false numberplates and electronic countermeasures
perhaps ???

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Larry

Series 3 Rust and Holes

> Didn't think they would listen.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6678915.stm
 
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