Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / November 2007
Odd gear change problem
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Paul Vigay - 08 Nov 2007 11:13 GMT I'm not sure if this is a sign of transmission fluid needing replacement (it was only serviced about 3 months ago) or something else....
On a 1997 Discovery XStdi, I'm finding that I need to double-declutch in order to smoothly change from first gear to second gear. If I make a straight change, I get a graunching noise as if I've not engaged the clutch properly. It doesn't sound too major, but enough to make me think "ouch", but as I say, everything is fine if I double-declutch.
It only seems to do it when changing from 1st to 2nd (not the other way) and all other gear changes are fine.
Does anyone have any ideas, or is this just a known thing about Discos (a friend has exactly the same thing happening on hers, of similar age). It's done about 120K miles.
Paul
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Lee_D - 08 Nov 2007 12:41 GMT Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> uttered summat worrerz funny about:
> I'm not sure if this is a sign of transmission fluid needing > replacement (it was only serviced about 3 months ago) or something [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Paul My guess is either slave cylinder or master cylinder seals leaking and hence 2 pumps works fine.
If you press the clutch twice without double declutching does it work fine then?
Check the clutch pedal to see if it's moist. I.e. any flid running down it from the master cylinder. Also check the fluid levels.
It could also be the clutch it's self on it's last legs but start by checking the above.. or at least thats what I would do.
Lee D
Ian Rawlings - 08 Nov 2007 12:51 GMT > My guess is either slave cylinder or master cylinder seals leaking and hence > 2 pumps works fine. I had a ballooning clutch line on another car of mine, so some of the pedal travel was taken up by the initial expansion of the clutch hose.
It could also be bad clutch adjustment, so normal pedal movement doesn't move the clutch fully away from the mating face, I had that too, on the same car, but not likely to just appear unless linkage adjustments are loose.
All the above is subject to differences in the disco setup being weird though, I've got no direct experience of discos.
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Paul Vigay - 12 Nov 2007 10:58 GMT > It could also be bad clutch adjustment, so normal pedal movement doesn't > move the clutch fully away from the mating face, I had that too, on the > same car, but not likely to just appear unless linkage adjustments are > loose. That's actually what I thought at first, as if the pedal wasn't being fully depressed, but having checked any obstructions or 'thick' mat on the drivers side, it doesn't appear to be anything inside the cab preventing the pedal being depressed.
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Paul Vigay - 12 Nov 2007 10:57 GMT [Snippety snip]
> If you press the clutch twice without double declutching does it work > fine then? Thanks for all the comments, and I had a bit of testing at the weekend. I'm not quite sure what you mean by pressing it twice without double-declutching though. Do you mean just pump it twice without changing gear? Surely if you pump twice whilst changing gear that's the same as double-declutching anyway, if you pump whilst in neutral?
> Check the clutch pedal to see if it's moist. I.e. any flid running down > it from the master cylinder. Also check the fluid levels. Nope. Perfectly dry and no fluid on pedal. No visible leaks under the bonnet either (or drops on the road where it's parked). Clutch fluid is correct level and doesn't appear to have dropped at all.
Paul
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Dave Plowman (News) - 08 Nov 2007 14:22 GMT > I'm not sure if this is a sign of transmission fluid needing replacement > (it was only serviced about 3 months ago) or something else....
> On a 1997 Discovery XStdi, I'm finding that I need to double-declutch in > order to smoothly change from first gear to second gear. If I make a > straight change, I get a graunching noise as if I've not engaged the clutch > properly. It doesn't sound too major, but enough to make me think "ouch", > but as I say, everything is fine if I double-declutch.
> It only seems to do it when changing from 1st to 2nd (not the other way) > and all other gear changes are fine.
> Does anyone have any ideas, or is this just a known thing about Discos > (a friend has exactly the same thing happening on hers, of similar age). > It's done about 120K miles. Second gear synchro baulk rings always seem to be the first to wear out - they get the most hammering.
However, it could be caused by a dragging clutch. The clue to this is ease of engagement from rest, usually. Crunching into reverse on a box with no synchromesh on that gear.
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Paul Vigay - 12 Nov 2007 10:59 GMT [Snippety snip]
> However, it could be caused by a dragging clutch. The clue to this is > ease of engagement from rest, usually. Crunching into reverse on a box > with no synchromesh on that gear. Goes into reverse with no problems at all. Same as changing any other gear, and also going from 2 back down to 1. Only seems to do it when changing from 1st to 2nd.
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Dave Plowman (News) - 12 Nov 2007 12:41 GMT > > However, it could be caused by a dragging clutch. The clue to this is > > ease of engagement from rest, usually. Crunching into reverse on a box > > with no synchromesh on that gear.
> Goes into reverse with no problems at all. Same as changing any other > gear, and also going from 2 back down to 1. Only seems to do it when > changing from 1st to 2nd. I'm afraid you have worn synchromesh on that gear. But if you can work round it ok nothing dreadful will happen. The worn part (baulk ring) costs pennies but the labour to replace it hundreds as the gearbox has to come out and be stripped.
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Dave Liquorice - 08 Nov 2007 17:21 GMT > On a 1997 Discovery XStdi, I'm finding that I need to double-declutch in > order to smoothly change from first gear to second gear. I think that motor and a 2001 DII share the same gearbox and I thought that interesting 1st to 2nd changes were par for the course.
The orginal box on my 2001 DII with about 40,000 miles could be a bit tricky. That box failed big time and the replacement recon box more or less required you to double de clutch or pause in neutral from 1st to 2nd when cold, not so bad once warmed up a bit. This appears to have gone way completely now after about 30,000 miles.
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TonyB - 08 Nov 2007 19:12 GMT >> On a 1997 Discovery XStdi, I'm finding that I need to double-declutch in >> order to smoothly change from first gear to second gear. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > when cold, not so bad once warmed up a bit. This appears to have gone way > completely now after about 30,000 miles. I think Dave L is right, it'll prolly be the synchro. My Tdi 300 did it all the time I had it. To test, change from first to second but pause in neutral for a second or two. If it slips smoothly in then, my guess would be synchro. If it is, it'll be worse at high rev changes than at low ones too. TonyB
Paul Vigay - 12 Nov 2007 11:02 GMT [Snippety snip]
> I think Dave L is right, it'll prolly be the synchro. My Tdi 300 did it > all the time I had it. To test, change from first to second but pause in > neutral for a second or two. If it slips smoothly in then, my guess would > be synchro. Ahh yes. Getting warmer. Pausing in neutral for a second does indeed prevent it happening and it then slips smoothly into 2nd gear.
Is synchro easy to examine/test, or is this a job for a garage? I'm a bit of a tinkerer and generally know what I'm doing, but I'm not really a mechanic.
And, thanks for all the suggestions.
Paul
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EMB - 12 Nov 2007 11:08 GMT > Is synchro easy to examine/test, or is this a job for a garage? I'm a bit > of a tinkerer and generally know what I'm doing, but I'm not really a > mechanic. You've tested it. Inspection is just a small matter of removing the gearbox, stripping said gearbox and looking at it. ;-)
I'd try changing the gearbox oil for the LR recommended product.
Dave Plowman (News) - 12 Nov 2007 12:45 GMT > > Is synchro easy to examine/test, or is this a job for a garage? I'm a > > bit of a tinkerer and generally know what I'm doing, but I'm not > > really a mechanic.
> You've tested it. Inspection is just a small matter of removing the > gearbox, stripping said gearbox and looking at it. ;-)
> I'd try changing the gearbox oil for the LR recommended product. Indeed. If the oil is too thick etc this will place additional load on the synchromesh clutches. Often a maker will specify a better oil for the job when it becomes available and this is generally suitable for earlier boxes of the same type.
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Stephen Hull - 12 Nov 2007 17:13 GMT >On a 1997 Discovery XStdi, I'm finding that I need to double-declutch in >order to smoothly change from first gear to second gear. If I make a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >It only seems to do it when changing from 1st to 2nd (not the other way) >and all other gear changes are fine. I have to double-declutch from 1st to 2nd all the time when driving my series 2a, but as its 30 odd years old I can live with it, a newer Disco though is a different matter.
Stephen.
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Alex - 12 Nov 2007 18:22 GMT >>On a 1997 Discovery XStdi, I'm finding that I need to double-declutch in >>order to smoothly change from first gear to second gear. If I make a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Stephen. Huh, I have the "pleasure" of driving a 5-yr old truck that required double declutching on 1st, 2nd and 4th. It was built without synchros on 1st, and has no synchros left on 2nd and 4th. 3rd and 5th are fine.....
Alex
EMB - 12 Nov 2007 19:03 GMT > Huh, I have the "pleasure" of driving a 5-yr old truck that required > double declutching on 1st, 2nd and 4th. It was built without synchros > on 1st, and has no synchros left on 2nd and 4th. 3rd and 5th are > fine..... I regularly drive a truck with 18 non-synchromesh gears. After a wee bit of practise it's easy (so long as you don't bother using the clutch when changing gear).
Alex - 12 Nov 2007 22:01 GMT >> Huh, I have the "pleasure" of driving a 5-yr old truck that required >> double declutching on 1st, 2nd and 4th. It was built without synchros [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >bit of practise it's easy (so long as you don't bother using the clutch >when changing gear). Oh, I'm constantly dabbing it through the box without using the clutch. Much easier than doing it properly! Makes a nasty noise when you miss though. Changing down into 1st on the move is tricky under any circumstances, it's a crawler gear with no pretence of even having a synchro, and runs out at about 10kph. 4th is the bugger as the most frequent change you have to make is 4-5-4-5-4-5 if the traffic isnt maintaining a constant speed on the open roads. Probably why the previous driver wore the gearbox out in the first place.
Alex
Stephen Hull - 13 Nov 2007 07:58 GMT >>I have to double-declutch from 1st to 2nd all the time when driving my >>series 2a, but as its 30 odd years old I can live with it, a newer Disco [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Alex I bet that's fun!
Stephen.
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John Williamson - 12 Nov 2007 18:40 GMT > I have to double-declutch from 1st to 2nd all the time when driving my > series 2a, but as its 30 odd years old I can live with it, a newer Disco > though is a different matter. I dunno about yours, but mine's never had synchro on 1st & 2nd. Unless that's what you meant, in which case I'll just get back into the corner...
Mind you, with practice, you can change without using the clutch. It saves about half a second going from 2nd to 1st:-)
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John.
Stephen Hull - 13 Nov 2007 07:57 GMT >> I have to double-declutch from 1st to 2nd all the time when driving my >> series 2a, but as its 30 odd years old I can live with it, a newer Disco >> though is a different matter. >> >I dunno about yours, but mine's never had synchro on 1st & 2nd. Unless >that's what you meant, in which case I'll just get back into the corner... Same on mine, no synchro on 1st & 2nd, plus a very noisy old worn gearbox that just won't give up.
>Mind you, with practice, you can change without using the clutch. It >saves about half a second going from 2nd to 1st:-) I had no synchro on 1st on an old 1961 Ford Anglia.
I failed my first driving test in the old Anglia because I could not engage 1st from 2nd when moving, I had to stop before engaging 1st gear.
The driving examiner wanted me to engage 1st when the vehicle was still moving (towards a junction etc), a horrible crunching noise came from the gearbox when I tried, this was in the mid 70s.
I even tried to explained the workings of the gearbox but he wasn't interested and failed me on incorrect use of gears.
Stephen.
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Dave Plowman (News) - 13 Nov 2007 09:52 GMT > I had no synchro on 1st on an old 1961 Ford Anglia.
> I failed my first driving test in the old Anglia because I could not > engage 1st from 2nd when moving, I had to stop before engaging 1st gear.
> The driving examiner wanted me to engage 1st when the vehicle was still > moving (towards a junction etc), a horrible crunching noise came from > the gearbox when I tried, this was in the mid 70s.
> I even tried to explained the workings of the gearbox but he wasn't > interested and failed me on incorrect use of gears. You have to double de-clutch to select a lower gear on the move on a box without synchromesh. But this technique wasn't required when I took my driving test some years earlier than you, and synchromesh first gears were virtually unknown. Most cars with 'crash' first gears were happy starting from rest in second - first only really needed for hills or with a heavy load, so rarely if ever needed on the move. The advent of motorways meant the overall gearing had to be raised - otherwise engines would blow up with sustained high speed cruising, so first then became a gear which was needed on the move. And synchromesh became the standard. Then 5 speed boxes.
IIRC, the first mass produced UK made car with 4 speed box and synchromesh on first was a direct relation of your Anglia - the MkI Cortina. The first 5 speed the Austin Maxi.
Some older cars had three speed all synchro boxes but these were often four speeds with first 'blanked' off.
Your examiner may have been right to the letter of the regs on correct use of the gears, but most would have made allowances for an older car.
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Austin Shackles - 13 Nov 2007 07:44 GMT >I'm not sure if this is a sign of transmission fluid needing replacement >(it was only serviced about 3 months ago) or something else.... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >friend has exactly the same thing happening on hers, of similar age). It's >done about 120K miles. worn synchro on second?
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