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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / January 2008Battery problems
It was marked, sealed for life, I guess than when it "unsealed" itself, that was the end of its life! http://www.lmandwr.co.uk/battery/battery_1.jpg http://www.lmandwr.co.uk/battery/battery_2.jpg More seriously, any ideas what could have happened? This is a battery that is used in my Landrover (in series with the "normal" battery) to give me 24v for the diesel heater. It comes out about once a month for charging (I've charged it this way in the same place on the same charger for the last 2 years). It was put on charge a couple of days earlier on a 12v, 5A (trickle) charge, I came into the workshop yesterday to find this! I have since charged a similar battery (same type) without any problems. Cheers Peter >It was marked, sealed for life, I guess than when it "unsealed" itself, >that was the end of its life! [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >I have since charged a similar battery (same type) without any problems. Looks like something ignited the venting hydrogen. Is your battery setup causing circulating current at some point, resulting in overcharging? I had something similar happen with a charging battery..... http://www.cbmsys.co.uk/misc/batterybang.jpg Alex > More seriously, any ideas what could have happened? It went *BANG*! Just as well you weren't anywhere near it battery acid is not nice on your skin or clothes. Hope you have washed everything down with plenty of bicarbonate to neutralise the acid or things *will* fall apart over the next week or so... > This is a battery that is used in my Landrover (in series with the > "normal" battery) to give me 24v for the diesel heater. It comes out > about once a month for charging (I've charged it this way in the same > place on the same charger for the last 2 years). How much current does the heater take? My suspicion is that the battery has been seriously overcharged... > It was put on charge a couple of days earlier on a 12v, 5A (trickle) > charge, I came into the workshop yesterday to find this! 5A for 48hrs is 240AHr, that doesn't look more than about a 80Ahr battery to me. I doubt the explosion was due to a sudden failure of the casing due to pressure build up as batteries have pressure relief systems, so that leaves a hydrogen explosion but I wonder what set that off? Any automatic power switching in the charger?  SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail >> More seriously, any ideas what could have happened? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > leaves a hydrogen explosion but I wonder what set that off? Any automatic > power switching in the charger? I think should clarify a couple of things, the charger is an "old fashioned" transformer/rectifier (the only electronics are the silicon diodes!) also it was on the 5A setting (it has 5A, 10A and 20A fast charge settings), it was actually taking between 1 and 2 Amps. Cheers Peter > >> More seriously, any ideas what could have happened? > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > systems, so that leaves a hydrogen explosion but I wonder what set > > that off? Any automatic power switching in the charger? > I think should clarify a couple of things, the charger is an "old > fashioned" transformer/rectifier (the only electronics are the silicon > diodes!) also it was on the 5A setting (it has 5A, 10A and 20A fast > charge settings), it was actually taking between 1 and 2 Amps. That explains things. Old basic chargers like this continue to charge after the battery has fully charged and cause the battery to gas freely - they should not be used unattended with low maintenance types. They will also deplete the electrolyte if they're left on after the battery reaches full charge. They can be modified to constant voltage charge, though. Signature*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > That explains things. Old basic chargers like this continue to charge > after the battery has fully charged and cause the battery to gas freely - > they should not be used unattended with low maintenance types. ...and 5A 12V is 60W into the battery isn't going to encourage cool-ness. Steve > I think should clarify a couple of things, the charger is an "old > fashioned" transformer/rectifier (the only electronics are the silicon > diodes!) OK ignore my other post... > also it was on the 5A setting (it has 5A, 10A and 20A fast charge > settings), it was actually taking between 1 and 2 Amps. If you can trust the meter. The meter on my lump of iron and diode charger can be made to read almost anything from 0 to 4 A depending how you knock it and its orientation. I've never actually put a decent ammeter in series with it to see what is actually happening, it's just a "something is going in" indication. How flat was the battery when it was put on charge? 2 A for 48hrs will fully charge a *totaly flat* 80AHr battery. I doubt this battery was totaly flat when put on charge hence it will have been overcharged and thus gassing nicely. B-) SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail > I doubt this battery was > totaly flat when put on charge hence it will have been overcharged and > thus gassing nicely. B-) Knackered batteries don't accept charge and seem to gas quickly as a result. AJH >5A for 48hrs is 240AHr, that doesn't look more than about a 80Ahr battery >to me. I doubt the explosion was due to a sudden failure of the casing due >to pressure build up as batteries have pressure relief systems, so that >leaves a hydrogen explosion but I wonder what set that off? Any automatic >power switching in the charger? then again, yer typical 5A charger a) doesn't supply 5A to start with and b) the current drops off as it reaches full voltage. I favour something making a spark and the H mixture just happening to be volatile. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! > then again, yer typical 5A charger a) doesn't supply 5A to start with > and b) the current drops off as it reaches full voltage. True enough most cheap/older car battery chargers are very crude, fine for vented cells but not really suitable for use with modern sealed for life batteries. Any way the thing that the OPs battery was sat looked more like a commercial heavy duty battery charger... Could be wrong though. > I favour something making a spark and the H mixture just happening to be > volatile. Batteries only really gas once they are being over charged... SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail > I favour something making a spark and the H mixture just happening to be > volatile. I thought a spark would be necessary because the autoignition temperatre of hydrogen in air is 500C. Except this is a mixture of hydrogen and ogygen, so it could be a lot lower and impurities, especially if there is any phosphorus in the battery, could actually ignite at room temperature. AJH > It was marked, sealed for life, I guess than when it "unsealed" itself, > that was the end of its life! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > More seriously, any ideas what could have happened? A high-resistance fault between 2 cells became hot enough during charging to ignite the hydrogen. I've seen it happen a few times over the years and it makes a fecking mess of the workshop (expecially with a large one like a 624). After the spray of acid costing me a ne wpaintjob on a car I now charge batteries outside behind the workshop, in a cage to stop them getting nicked. >> It was marked, sealed for life, I guess than when it "unsealed" itself, >> that was the end of its life! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >wpaintjob on a car I now charge batteries outside behind the workshop, >in a cage to stop them getting nicked. Mm, I have been trying to rescue a battery that has got a cell down. Left it on a 2-3A charge for a couple of days. Forgot to check it yesterday, this afternoon I found that the high resistance had broken down a bit and it was taking about 10A and rather warm. I charge batteries with the stoppers out, which tends to prevent any Hydrogen buildup. Still got one cell with low gravity, so given up on it and thrown it away. Alex > I charge batteries with the stoppers out, which tends to prevent any > Hydrogen buildup. Bit tricky to take the stoppers out on a "sealed for life" battery... B-) There is more to bringing a duff cell back to life than simply bunging the battery on a simple charger. Have a google, there is plenty of info out there. SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail >> I charge batteries with the stoppers out, which tends to prevent any >> Hydrogen buildup. > >Bit tricky to take the stoppers out on a "sealed for life" battery... >B-) Mmmm. I've lost count of the number of "sealed for life" batteries that I've taken the stoppers out of to check gravities and top up with acid/water as required. Peel the label off the top that says "sealed for life" and lo! the stoppers are underneath. The only truly sealed lead-acid batteries are the likes of the Optima and the dry-cell lead acid batteries. And even they have pressure relief vents to let out excess gases. Alex > Mmmm. I've lost count of the number of "sealed for life" batteries > that I've taken the stoppers out of to check gravities and top up with > acid/water as required. Peel the label off the top that says "sealed > for life" and lo! the stoppers are underneath. Not on the ones I've recently looked at. Some one had attempted to get at the stoppers on the small bettery for the generator but failed, left lots lever marks in the plastic mind. The top of the new and old DII battery is devoid of any joins to get a lever in. The label is a tiddly thing in the middle of the top face. SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail EMB typed: >> It was marked, sealed for life, I guess than when it "unsealed" >> itself, that was the end of its life! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > wpaintjob on a car I now charge batteries outside behind the workshop, > in a cage to stop them getting nicked. The only time I've seen that happen was in a garage on Anglesey when I had popped in for something and was standing in their workshop where they had a car battery on charge - the charger was one of those big ones on wheels and was being used to put in a rapid charge to get the car going. The battery exploded without warning and showered everything in sight with bits of plastic and acid. I was about 20ft away and got away with a few holes in my jeans, but I'm glad I wasn't standing next to it. SignatureRich B Ducati GT1000 Take out the obvious to email me. > The only time I've seen that happen was in a garage on Anglesey when I had > popped in for something and was standing in their workshop where they had a > car battery on charge - the charger was one of those big ones on wheels and > was being used to put in a rapid charge to get the car going. I did exactly the same to an old 4cylinder MF35 but it was my fault in that I gave up and removed the clips from the terminals whilst the charger was still live, the spark initiated the explosion, luckily I wear glasses but it cost me a pair of Levis. That's why it is recommended that when using jump leads you attach the negative (assuming this is earth) leads to earth points away from battery terminals and place them last then remove them first. AJH andrew heggie typed: >> The only time I've seen that happen was in a garage on Anglesey when >> I had popped in for something and was standing in their workshop [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > AJH Or clip the terminals to the battery *before* plugging in to the mains, and remove them *after* unplugging the charger. God knows how many times I have had my head under a bonnet and have struck the charger leads together "to see if it's working". Lovely shower of sparks. I shouldn't have any eyebrows left, by rights. Those with rings you can attach permanently and just plug the charger in via a connector are a bloody good idea, for convenience as well as safety. SignatureRich B Ducati GT1000 Take out the obvious to email me. > It was marked, sealed for life, I guess than when it "unsealed" itself, > that was the end of its life! > http://www.lmandwr.co.uk/battery/battery_1.jpg > http://www.lmandwr.co.uk/battery/battery_2.jpg > More seriously, any ideas what could have happened? This is a battery > that is used in my Landrover (in series with the "normal" battery) to > give me 24v for the diesel heater. It comes out about once a month for > charging (I've charged it this way in the same place on the same charger > for the last 2 years). > It was put on charge a couple of days earlier on a 12v, 5A (trickle) > charge, I came into the workshop yesterday to find this! > I have since charged a similar battery (same type) without any problems. Charging batteries indoors can be dangerous if there's a chance of the hydrogen produced getting trapped somewhere and then ignited by a spark. It's a common occurrence in commercial garages which have a badly designed 'battery room'. As a matter of interest is your charger an old model? > Cheers > Peter Signature*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > It was marked, sealed for life, I guess than when it "unsealed" itself, > > that was the end of its life! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It was put on charge a couple of days earlier on a 12v, 5A (trickle) > > charge, I came into the workshop yesterday to find this! I wouldn't call 5 amps a trickle charge, maybe got a crack in the case through manhandling it quite a lot by removing to charge? Low electrolyte level and arced across the top of the plates? If it's 2 years old it was probably knackered anyway and due for replacement. To trickle charge I use not more than 1/2 an amp over a couple of days, that always seems to work and doesn't cook the battery, and as someone said earlier it's not hard to work out, a totally flat 80 a/h battery would take 40 hours at 1/2 an amp. I reckon it was just overcharged. Martin > > In article <3ggdj.56041$036.14...@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, > > > It was marked, sealed for life, I guess than when it "unsealed" itself, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > - Show quoted text - And then another 120 hours at 1/2 amp? :-) AL > I wouldn't call 5 amps a trickle charge, maybe got a crack in the case > through manhandling it quite a lot by removing to charge? Low electrolyte [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Martin Knackered at only two years old? I'd expect a damn site longer than that from a modern battery. It's not A/h (amps per hour), by the way, but Ah (ampere-hour or amps times hours) so an 80Ah battery needs 160hours to charge at 1/2A from fully flat. SignatureRegards Steve G > It's not A/h (amps per hour), by the way, but Ah (ampere-hour or amps > times hours) so an 80Ah battery needs 160hours to charge at 1/2A from > fully flat. Quite a bit longer as charging a battery isn't an efficient process. Signature*Money isn‘t everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> It's not A/h (amps per hour), by the way, but Ah (ampere-hour or amps >> times hours) so an 80Ah battery needs 160hours to charge at 1/2A from >> fully flat. > > Quite a bit longer as charging a battery isn't an efficient process. A factor of 1.4 to 1.6 is generally used. Well I set off from Trowbridge for Lowestoft yesterday with my trailer to collect the dog kennel and run. I got about 8 miles from home and when starting away from a set of traffic lights there was a loud crunch then no movement at all :-( Turn out the splines have stripped on the main shaft (and I treated it to a 200Tdi engine two months ago, no gratitude :-) So it's at West Wiltshire Landrovers awaiting a replacement box. Should be done by the back end of next week. I'll try again next weekend! So, the battery for the Eberspacher heater exploded, the main shaft splines have stripped, working on the fact that bad things come in threes, what's going to be the third I wonder....? Have a great 4x4 new year Cheers Peter Overcast Trowbridge > Well I set off from Trowbridge for Lowestoft yesterday with my trailer > to collect the dog kennel and run. I got about 8 miles from home and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > splines have stripped, working on the fact that bad things come in > threes, what's going to be the third I wonder....? Look at it this way - they'll soon be 2007's problems. You need a break for 2008! > Have a great 4x4 new year > > Cheers > > Peter > Overcast Trowbridge > Well I set off from Trowbridge for Lowestoft yesterday with my trailer > to collect the dog kennel and run. I got about 8 miles from home and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Peter > Overcast Trowbridge The dog will escape! SignatureWisdom and experience come with age, they say, but I wish I could remember the darn question > > Well I set off from Trowbridge for Lowestoft yesterday with my trailer > > to collect the dog kennel and run. I got about 8 miles from home and [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Wrong, The electric seat controls have died in the coffin carrier (Volvo 960). I like to be reclined and a good distance back, my wife likes to be upright and close to the pedals. I used it last, then it broke. She's not happy! Cheers Peter > Quite a bit longer as charging a battery isn't an efficient process. Hi Dave, I was really commenting on the terminology and maths not the real world practicalities - though I agree with you entirely :-) SignatureRegards Steve G > > I wouldn't call 5 amps a trickle charge, maybe got a crack in the case > > through manhandling it quite a lot by removing to charge? Low electrolyte [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > times hours) so an 80Ah battery needs 160hours to charge at 1/2A from > fully flat. Yeah, yeah, so I got my sums wrong again; Smart arses, you know what I meant :-)) Martin > Yeah, yeah, so I got my sums wrong again; Smart arses, you know what I > meant :-)) > > Martin Of course we knew what you meant but on the basis of taking no prisoners ........ SignatureRegards Steve G |
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