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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / January 2008proper battery rating for a 2.5 n/a D?
My 2A has always been incredibly hard to start, It had a new battery about 3 years ago but i think it was too low a rating as even with that it was tricky to start. It has no hope now in the cold and ive been jumping it for the last week or so to move it round the garden. What is the proper rating of battery you should use on a 2.5 n/a diesel engine? The current one is a 69Ah one. I reckon something like 100Ah would be more like it! PS - Lee - it aint going to snow this year! I've just got to fix the broken drivers seat and find a battery that will start it (i think he may fail it out of spite if he has to jump it for its MOT!) and its being booked for its MOT! >My 2A has always been incredibly hard to start, It had a new battery >about 3 years ago but i think it was too low a rating as even with that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >engine? The current one is a 69Ah one. I reckon something like 100Ah >would be more like it! get a small commercial one: 643 or 644, depending on which way round you want the terminals. the next one up is 663/664 I think....  SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! > get a small commercial one: 643 or 644, depending on which way round you > want the terminals. > > the next one up is 663/664 I think.... Both of which are listed as the correct battery for a 2.25 NA Series. >> get a small commercial one: 643 or 644, depending on which way round you >> want the terminals. >> >> the next one up is 663/664 I think.... > >Both of which are listed as the correct battery for a 2.25 NA Series. Which is near as dammit the same engine, so will require a similar battery to crank it >>> get a small commercial one: 643 or 644, depending on which way round you >>> want the terminals. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Which is near as dammit the same engine, so will require a similar > battery to crank it My 2.5 has always required more effort to turn over than any 2.25D i've known. Its got a new starter, new earth cable, the battery +ve cables are still pretty good (only being 5 or 6 years old). Glow plugs are only a couple of years old. Can you skim the heads/blocks on 2.5D's? it was rebuilt once before i bought it and did it again. Wonder if it had owt done? Even when the battery on it now was new you got one chance to start it - it just doesnt turn over very quickly and you get 10-15secs max before the battery is spent. I returned the battery and we drop tested it finding no problem. The battery charger/boost starter i have is 200A i think and even with that it doesnt turn over anywhere near as quickly as any of my other vehicles. When it i warm it turns over really quick and starts with no glow plugs easily. Just not happy when it is cold. > My 2.5 has always required more effort to turn over than any 2.25D i've > known. Its got a new starter, new earth cable, the battery +ve cables [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the battery is spent. I returned the battery and we drop tested it > finding no problem. It sounds like you still have a problem of some sort - except on a bloody cold morning the battery you have should be capable of giving an old 2.5NA a decent spin. I'd be checking the current draw of the starter, and the voltage drop in the cables. Slow cranking makes diesels disinclined to start - which makes the whole problem self-perpetuating. > It sounds like you still have a problem of some sort - except on a > bloody cold morning the battery you have should be capable of giving an > old 2.5NA a decent spin. I'd be checking the current draw of the > starter, and the voltage drop in the cables. Slow cranking makes > diesels disinclined to start - which makes the whole problem > self-perpetuating. I cant see what the problem is - ive replaced most things! The starter was rebuilt (twice) so i hope its good. I have a 100A ammeter with shunt so can perhaps try testing it with that. I might try replacing the +ve cable with some better stuff. I used domestic mains supply cable (like wot goes before your meter) when i rebuilt it but can afford some proper stuff from VWP which is better (but no bigger). >> It sounds like you still have a problem of some sort - except on a >> bloody cold morning the battery you have should be capable of giving an [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >rebuilt it but can afford some proper stuff from VWP which is better >(but no bigger). You might also find it makes a surprising difference. Alex > The starter was rebuilt (twice) so i hope its good. I have a 100A > ammeter with shunt so can perhaps try testing it with that. A FSD of 500A would be a pretty good start, and if the starter is knackered it could draw all that and more. > I might try replacing the +ve cable with some better stuff. I used > domestic mains supply cable (like wot goes before your meter) when i > rebuilt it but can afford some proper stuff from VWP which is better > (but no bigger). I'm unfamiliar with wot goes before the meter in the UK, but assuming it's similar to NZ then it's nowhere near heavy enough. http://www.wwsgroup.co.uk/wws/pages/products/info.asp?pn=EZC50 would be a good starting point. It's cheap and well up to the job. > I'm unfamiliar with wot goes before the meter in the UK, but assuming > it's similar to NZ then it's nowhere near heavy enough. Generally either 15mm^2 or 25mm^2 but double insulated, normally grey PVC over black or red. > http://www.wwsgroup.co.uk/wws/pages/products/info.asp?pn=EZC50 would be > a good starting point. It's cheap and well up to the job. And twice the CSA of 25mm^2 mains meter tail. May appear to have similar OD to 25mm meter tails but the double insulation is quite thick. Weld cable is single insulated, thus comparativly thin. SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail >> I'm unfamiliar with wot goes before the meter in the UK, but assuming >> it's similar to NZ then it's nowhere near heavy enough. > > Generally either 15mm^2 or 25mm^2 but double insulated, normally grey PVC > over black or red. Much the same as here - generally 16mm^2 for domestic. > >> http://www.wwsgroup.co.uk/wws/pages/products/info.asp?pn=EZC50 would be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > OD to 25mm meter tails but the double insulation is quite thick. Weld > cable is single insulated, thus comparativly thin. 35mm^2 is generally ample, but for the slight extra cost it's worth the move to 50mm^2 >> Generally either 15mm^2 or 25mm^2 but double insulated, normally grey >> PVC over black or red. > > Much the same as here - generally 16mm^2 for domestic. >> >> And twice the CSA of 25mm^2 mains meter tail. May appear to have >> similar OD to 25mm meter tails but the double insulation is quite >> thick. Weld cable is single insulated, thus comparativly thin. > > 35mm^2 is generally ample, but for the slight extra cost it's worth the > move to 50mm^2 Ive gone for 40mm^2 on my other motors: http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/cable/batterycable.php Is it really worth an extra £2/m to step up to 60mm^2?. Rated for 415 amps rather than 300. 40mm^2 at 300 should be plenty should it not? I didnt realise the domestic stuff was lower rated. From what i can find it looks like it could be 25mm^2 or 35mm^2. It is not double insulated and is in red/black PVC. Slightly larger OD than normal battery cable but fewer larger diameter cores inside it. Came out of dads garage as (presumably - he thought) left overs from having an extension built and meter moved/house rewired back in the mid 80's.. > Is it really worth an extra £2/m to step up to 60mm^2?. Rated for 415 > amps rather than 300. 40mm^2 at 300 should be plenty should it not? No, because "rating" is about maximum insulation temperatures under constant running. What you are worrying about is voltage drop under load, which is current x Resistance/unit length x length. Steve >> Is it really worth an extra £2/m to step up to 60mm^2?. Rated for 415 >> amps rather than 300. 40mm^2 at 300 should be plenty should it not? > > No, because "rating" is about maximum insulation temperatures under > constant running. What you are worrying about is voltage drop under > load, which is current x Resistance/unit length x length. Using 40mm welding cable the DC voltage drop per metre is approximately 1mV per A. At 60mm it's approximately 0.6mV/A. >>> Is it really worth an extra £2/m to step up to 60mm^2?. Rated for 415 >>> amps rather than 300. 40mm^2 at 300 should be plenty should it not? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Using 40mm welding cable the DC voltage drop per metre is approximately >1mV per A. At 60mm it's approximately 0.6mV/A. supposing the starter to draw 300A, you get 0.3V drop, then, per meter. The main lead battery-solenoid in my 110 with the V8 (starter on the "other" side) from the battery under the passenger seat is no more than 2m, for a voltage drop of 0.6V. I'd say that for normal vehicles, the 40mm² is going to be good enough. ISRT mine was done from a dead 25mm² jump lead, which is a bit light but it copes OK with the V8 starting current, which is probably a bit less. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! > supposing the starter to draw 300A, you get 0.3V drop, then, per meter. The > main lead battery-solenoid in my 110 with the V8 (starter on the "other" > side) from the battery under the passenger seat is no more than 2m, for a > voltage drop of 0.6V. > > I'd say that for normal vehicles, the 40mm² is going to be good enough. 0.3V is generally accepted[1] as the maximum permissable voltage drop in the +ve starter feed, hence my recommendation to use a larger cable. [1] ICBA finding a cite, but it's summat that was hammered into me many years ago during my apprenticeship. >> It sounds like you still have a problem of some sort - except on a >>bloody cold morning the battery you have should be capable of giving [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >rebuilt it but can afford some proper stuff from VWP which is better >(but no bigger). Have you checked the earth link, engine to chassis, chassis to battery. Take them off and make sure they clean. Also crimped ends can give a problem. They become loose over time and it's not obvious. Learnt the hard way of course :-( Signaturehugh Reply to address is valid at the time of posting > Have you checked the earth link, engine to chassis, chassis to battery. > Take them off and make sure they clean. Also crimped ends can give a > problem. They become loose over time and it's not obvious. Learnt the > hard way of course :-( engine to chassis is new. I'm gonna replace the other ones when i do the other battery leads! ends are crimped and then soldered so they should be good.. >The battery charger/boost starter i have is 200A i think and even with >that it doesnt turn over anywhere near as quickly as any of my other >vehicles. > >When it i warm it turns over really quick and starts with no glow plugs >easily. Just not happy when it is cold. what oil have you got in it? SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! > get a small commercial one: 643 or 644, depending on which way round you > want the terminals. > > the next one up is 663/664 I think.... ok. a 643 is 90Ah-95Ah from what i can tell. fair step up from the 69Ah im struggling with now! >> get a small commercial one: 643 or 644, depending on which way round you >> want the terminals. >> the next one up is 663/664 I think.... > > ok. a 643 is 90Ah-95Ah from what i can tell. fair step up from the 69Ah > im struggling with now! Have a look on www.tayna.co.uk Tom, they are helpful there too - good prices delivered! they also have lots of spec information in terms of sizes etc SignatureSi K http://www.kentmassive.com - virtual pub for 4x4 and horse types http://www.kmengineering.org - vehicle servicing in Kent > What is the proper rating of battery you should use on a 2.5 n/a diesel > engine? The current one is a 69Ah one. I reckon something like 100Ah > would be more like it! If you have the physical size take a look at my quick 'n dirty battery page at: http://www.howhill.com/battery/search.php This should return the BCI group numbers of batteries that match the supplied dimensions/tolerance along with the terminal layout and type as defined by the BCI. The CCA, RC and capacity are also given but those are not defined by the BCI and will vary from maker to maker. The database almost certainly isn't complete either but it's a starting point. SignatureCheers new5pam@howhill.com Dave. pam is missing e-mail >> What is the proper rating of battery you should use on a 2.5 n/a diesel >> engine? The current one is a 69Ah one. I reckon something like 100Ah [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.howhill.com/battery/search.php Physical size doesnt matter as long as it is smaller than a series petrol tank (since its sitting in one of them with the top cut off!) I should think this leaves me the option of pretty much any car/truck battery on the market :) Tom Woods <tom@NOPSAMtomwoods.co.uk> uttered summat worrerz funny about: >>> What is the proper rating of battery you should use on a 2.5 n/a >>> diesel engine? The current one is a 69Ah one. I reckon something [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I should think this leaves me the option of pretty much any car/truck > battery on the market :) I got a Maverick one from Halfrauds bigger and cheaper than the apparently recommended one for the TD 110. Look at that 3 / 4 year warantee and I seem to recall it wasn't all that bad on price. Do a google as I posted finer details around 12 months ago. Lee D > I got a Maverick one from Halfrauds bigger and cheaper than the apparently > recommended one for the TD 110. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Do a google as I posted finer details around 12 months ago. ok. Found you quoting your own post but not the original one! http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.fan.landrover/browse_thread/thread/a75f81b3 ae8b6a22/47bf35c040006f7f?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=starts+like+a+dream#47bf35c040006f7f I like the sound of it. >>> What is the proper rating of battery you should use on a 2.5 n/a diesel >>> engine? The current one is a 69Ah one. I reckon something like 100Ah [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I should think this leaves me the option of pretty much any car/truck >battery on the market :) I tend to fit 663/664 which is 115Ah, 800CCA. Cranks most things for a while. It does fit into a series battery tray, provided you lengthen it by 2" in the forward. For those of us who prefer the battery under the bonnet rather than elsewhere. The longer the cable from the battery, the greater the voltage drop....... 663/664 is also a very common light commercial (7.5t) size, although usually used in pairs for 24v. Gonna cost you about £80 for a unbranded one, about £120 for a decent one like Varta. Alex >663/664 is also a very common light commercial (7.5t) size, although >usually used in pairs for 24v. Gonna cost you about £80 for a >unbranded one, about £120 for a decent one like Varta. last 643 I bought was a lot less than that, although it's the next one down, and "only" about 750A. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! >>663/664 is also a very common light commercial (7.5t) size, although >>usually used in pairs for 24v. Gonna cost you about £80 for a >>unbranded one, about £120 for a decent one like Varta. > >last 643 I bought was a lot less than that, although it's the next one down, >and "only" about 750A. Prices of lead-acid batteries have gone up by about 30% in the last year, because the price of lead has gone up Alex >>> What is the proper rating of battery you should use on a 2.5 n/a diesel >>> engine? The current one is a 69Ah one. I reckon something like 100Ah [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I should think this leaves me the option of pretty much any car/truck >battery on the market :) You might not get the really big feck-orft ones in - some are going to be too tall and at least one I can think of is going to be too long - bloody great thing with 3 cells each side and both terminals at one end. Oh, and find an agricultural merchant to buy it from, as a "tractor battery", you get much better prices. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! > You might not get the really big feck-orft ones in - some are going to be > too tall and at least one I can think of is going to be too long - bloody > great thing with 3 cells each side and both terminals at one end. Theres quite a bit of space inside a series petrol tank! > Oh, and find an agricultural merchant to buy it from, as a "tractor > battery", you get much better prices. Was thinking that. A mate has an old diesel tractor for his field. It is ancient and has no glow plugs and will turn over for a good minute or so and then start on the battery it has on it! > > You might not get the really big feck-orft ones in - some are going to be > > too tall and at least one I can think of is going to be too long - bloody [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ancient and has no glow plugs and will turn over for a good minute or so > and then start on the battery it has on it! Which starter have you got? Someone suggested checking the current drain, have you done that? If it's the old long series2 one I'm thinking about or the shorter one with the rounded end cap which they first fitted to miss the vertical exhaust downpipe then both of these were slow. You need to borrow one off a later series3 to try but check the number of teeth first, if I'm not mistaken I think the later starters had only 9 teeth as against 10 which would effectively gear them down and improve performance but I seem to recall a difference in the ring gear as well BICBW. I have seen the later Lucas fitted with both 9 and 10 teeth. Martin > Which starter have you got? Someone suggested checking the current drain, > have you done that? If it's the old long series2 one I'm thinking about or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > recall a difference in the ring gear as well BICBW. I have seen the later > Lucas fitted with both 9 and 10 teeth. its not the same as the 2.25LR starter if that helps (cos i tried to fit one of them when it broke but it had the wrong no of teeth). It has a horizontal exhaust. I assume its the sherpa original. |
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