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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / January 2008

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Buggering siezed bolts

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Derek - 14 Jan 2008 00:24 GMT
Took the head off the 300 TDi Saturday  no cracks and flat as a witchs etc
but the thermostat housing was badly sealed 3 bolts came out and one awkard
bleeder came out down to the last 1/2inch and siezed leaving a 5/16 stump no
joy with the moles nor welding a nut on ( 4 times ) which only suceeded in
removing the last 1/8 when the weld sheared off so its down the engineers
for a drill and tap job tomoro I might ask him to give it a polish at the
same time.
Derek
Disco 200Tdi Kato
Disco300Tdi Miles
Mark Solesbury - 14 Jan 2008 07:49 GMT
> Took the head off the 300 TDi Saturday  no cracks and flat as a witchs etc
> but the thermostat housing was badly sealed 3 bolts came out and one awkard
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Disco 200Tdi Kato
> Disco300Tdi Miles

The only time ive ever snapped a bolt is when im working on the engine..

I did 2 in the timing cover for the water pump on my Range Rover.

Why is it that they go in the toughest of places :(

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Mark
1996 90 300tdi
1987 RR V8 EFI
2007 Golf GT

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Dave Plowman (News) - 14 Jan 2008 09:06 GMT
> > Took the head off the 300 TDi Saturday  no cracks and flat as a witchs
> > etc but the thermostat housing was badly sealed 3 bolts came out and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> The only time ive ever snapped a bolt is when im working on the engine..

> I did 2 in the timing cover for the water pump on my Range Rover.

> Why is it that they go in the toughest of places :(

When I got my first alloy engined vehicle in the '70s I also got the
factory workshop manual. And it insisted you used a special thread sealer
anywhere a bolt or stud went into the ally. This stuff has four basic
functions.

1) It prevents corrosion in the threads.

2) Seals the threads - useful where they go into the water jacket.

3) Locks the thread once it sets.

4) Lubricates the thread thus allowing the correct torque setting where
applicable.

It's called Scotch-Clad 776 and is made by 3M. It's an industrial product
really for the aircraft industry so not available retail in small
quantities. The smallest size is a 1 litre tin. Which costs about 15 quid.
And will last a DIYer many years - although it's rather like a paint in
that it will go off eventually as it's used up and there's a lot of air in
the tin. Decanting it into a smaller ones so there's no air would probably
slow this down. I'm only on my second tin.

Later factory workshop manuals for the same engine don't mention it. But
I wonder why since steel to aluminium threads remain a problem under some
conditions.

It could be there is a similar Locktite product. But this stuff is rather
different than most of those in that it's a thick clearish goo rather like
cellulose varnish. And indeed cellulose thinners is used to clean it off
used components before re-use.  

I found the recent supplier by Googling on 3M. A place near Southampton
which would do mail order but had a fairly high minimum charge of IIRC 50
quid. Luckily they had other products I could make use of to make that up.

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   Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Derek - 14 Jan 2008 19:24 GMT
>> > Took the head off the 300 TDi Saturday  no cracks and flat as a witchs
>> > etc but the thermostat housing was badly sealed 3 bolts came out and
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> which would do mail order but had a fairly high minimum charge of IIRC 50
> quid. Luckily they had other products I could make use of to make that up.

Thats a good point and as it happens I have some Loctite thread sealer ( a
smallish tube a bit bigger than super glue ) I usually smear a spot of
greaseon threads where I suspect the possibilty of water ingress I have to
say that at some point a mong has been involved with the engine maintainence
evidence supporting includes the lack of any sort of a gasket on the
thermostat housing,  a very loose couple of head bolts, only four valve caps
under the rockers I say under, one was loose in the rocker chest .
Derek
SpamTrapSeeSig - 15 Jan 2008 19:39 GMT
>And will last a DIYer many years - although it's rather like a paint in
>that it will go off eventually as it's used up and there's a lot of air
>in the tin. Decanting it into a smaller ones so there's no air would
>probably slow this down.

It's not so much how much air is in the tin, but the air liquid
interface. I use the easy-but-messy method: clean plastic bag turned
inside out and pushed down into the tin till it touches the surface of
the liquid. I used to do the same with photographic chemicals years ago
(in that case blow it up like a paper bag to fill the space better) -
the concertina bottles were too expensive.

Regards,

Simonm.

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simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU                   http://www.eurofaq.freeuk.com/
GT250A'76  R80/RT'86  110CSW TDi'88  www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

Tom Woods - 14 Jan 2008 10:35 GMT
>> Took the head off the 300 TDi Saturday  no cracks and flat as a witchs
>> etc but the thermostat housing was badly sealed 3 bolts came out and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Why is it that they go in the toughest of places :(

The water pump bolts go because a couple of them corrode where water
goes past them (or mine seem to have done). There are a couple of the v8
inlet manifold/head bolts that are similar..
Always use a torque wrench or a small ratchet so you can feel what you
are doing and not abuse it. Other than that it is sods law that the hard
to reach ones break :)

Derek - drilling and tapping/helicoiling stuff yourself isnt too tricky
- though since its off anyhow you might as well get it done while he's
polishing it (its a set rate for helicoiling stuff at the place i use)
Griff - 14 Jan 2008 15:18 GMT
> >> Took the head off the 300 TDi Saturday  no cracks and flat as a witchs
> >> etc but the thermostat housing was badly sealed 3 bolts came out and
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> - though since its off anyhow you might as well get it done while he's
> polishing it (its a set rate for helicoiling stuff at the place i use)

I have just had problems with three bolts on a 300tdi cambelt casing.
The three bolt heads were chewed up using a socket (10mm) and had to
be ground off, yes they were in an awkward place. They were only
recently installed using a torque wrench and therefore should have
come off easily which they did (Using fingers) when their heads were
cut off suggesting that there was a considerable amount of friction
between the head flange on the bolt and the casing. When replacing
them I made sure that there were no burrs on either the bolthead
flange and the casing. Any other reason why this happened?
SpamTrapSeeSig - 15 Jan 2008 19:49 GMT
>>> Took the head off the 300 TDi Saturday  no cracks and flat as a
>>>witchs  etc but the thermostat housing was badly sealed 3 bolts came
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>- though since its off anyhow you might as well get it done while he's
>polishing it (its a set rate for helicoiling stuff at the place i use)

If the quote is over 60 you might look at spark erosion. I had an
exploded bolt in one of the Beemer's stainless exhausts I tried and
couldn't weld anything on to the stub successfully, but spark erosion
left the original thread clean and virtually undamaged. It wasn't cheap
at around 60, but it couldn't really be helicoiled and the alternative
was a new RH exhaust at circa 180 UKP.

Regards,

Simonm.

Signature

simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU                   http://www.eurofaq.freeuk.com/
GT250A'76  R80/RT'86  110CSW TDi'88  www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

Derek - 15 Jan 2008 21:10 GMT
>>>> Took the head off the 300 TDi Saturday  no cracks and flat as a witchs
>>>> etc but the thermostat housing was badly sealed 3 bolts came out and
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Simonm.

Job done and in less than 24 hours 7thou skimmed bolt drilled out and
helicoiled head gasket set and a 1.6mm head gasket  core plugs replaced and
the head pressure tested at operating temperture and the whole lot came to
£100.21 so you can guess they are likely to be getting more business off me
in the future.

Derek
EMB - 16 Jan 2008 05:23 GMT
> Job done and in less than 24 hours 7thou skimmed bolt drilled out and
> helicoiled head gasket set and a 1.6mm head gasket  core plugs replaced and
> the head pressure tested at operating temperture and the whole lot came to
> £100.21 so you can guess they are likely to be getting more business off me
> in the future.

Damned right - that's a very good price for the work they did.
SpamTrapSeeSig - 16 Jan 2008 16:02 GMT
>Job done and in less than 24 hours 7thou skimmed bolt drilled out and
>helicoiled head gasket set and a 1.6mm head gasket  core plugs replaced and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Derek

Nice one. That price would be hard to beat anywhere.

Regards,

Simonm.

Signature

simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU                   http://www.eurofaq.freeuk.com/
GT250A'76  R80/RT'86  110CSW TDi'88  www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

 
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