 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / July 2008Gresham Family tragedy takes a twist
Don't know if you all remember the sad story that broke earlier this year about the Gresham family and the tragic accident that cost 4 kids their lives? I know I contributed to a fund for the family. Just seen this today... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7517468.stm WTF ??  Signature--- Andy <<08 Defender 110 XS CSW>> > Don't know if you all remember the sad story that broke earlier this year > about the Gresham family and the tragic accident that cost 4 kids their [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > WTF ?? Oh FFS, haven't they been through enough ? From the piece " Jaswant Kaur Narwal, chief crown prosecutor for Lincolnshire said: "This is a very sad case and we have spent a great deal of time reviewing the evidence and considering the public interest before making the decision to prosecute." WHERE is the "public interest" in that ? Bastards. Steve >> Don't know if you all remember the sad story that broke earlier this year >> about the Gresham family and the tragic accident that cost 4 kids their [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > WHERE is the "public interest" in that ? Bastards. > Steve Unless they know something that they are not telling, it is a disgrace, an accidental tragedy that will not be eased by anything, let alone this. The justice system in this country is going to the dogs. --- Andy <<08 Defender 110 XS CSW>> > Unless they know something that they are not telling, it is a disgrace, an > accidental tragedy that will not be eased by anything, let alone this. The > justice system in this country is going to the dogs. If they knew that, why has it taken so long to press any kind of charges . Whatever, the guy's lost half his family - what earthly punishment can anyone give him than that ? Like you I despair of what is called "justice" here anymore. Steve >> Unless they know something that they are not telling, it is a disgrace, an >> accidental tragedy that will not be eased by anything, let alone this. The [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Steve I said as much in what I sent to the beeb. I also looked back to last year: The 2 drivers involved were interviewed by police in October, no charges were brought. WTF do they think they're doing? SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! > Unless they know something that they are not telling, it is a disgrace, an > accidental tragedy that will not be eased by anything, let alone this. The > justice system in this country is going to the dogs. Sounds like they know more than we do, so seems a little premature to wring your hands over the justice system in this country. Secondly, if he's found guilty, we don't have mandatory sentences in this country despite the howling from the press, so there's a good chance that in the event of a guilty verdict, he'd not get much punishment if any. You've probably heard of cases such as wives who murdered their husbands who were beating them but were let off with extremely light sentences, it's cases like those, and this, that point out why mandatory sentencing is a dumb idea. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ > so there's a good chance > that in the event of a guilty verdict, he'd not get much punishment if > any. ...apart from losing half his family. Steve > ...apart from losing half his family. It *should* have been obvious that I meant punishment handed down by the judge. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >>> Don't know if you all remember the sad story that broke earlier this >>> year [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > <<08 Defender 110 XS CSW>> FFS, does nothing to give any sense of f.cking justice. My mate who got lobbed off his bike by some blind c.nt right in front of me has had the police trying to do him for dangerous driving ffs. I'm sorry, but that is f.cking out of order. c.nt in the car gets away scott free. SignatureNige, 'It takes a nation of millions to hold me back'. Range Rover Td6 Vogue BMW K1200S FOCUS ST3 >> Don't know if you all remember the sad story that broke earlier this >> year about the Gresham family and the tragic accident that cost 4 [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > WHERE is the "public interest" in that ? Bastards. > Steve I seem to recall it was the other driver who was at fault. SignatureWisdom and experience come with age, they say, but I wish I could remember the darn question > I seem to recall it was the other driver who was at fault. Where did you get that info from? SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >> I seem to recall it was the other driver who was at fault. > >Where did you get that info from? From what *I* recall, it's a narrow road, 2 large-ish vehicles and not enough space, the tragedy is that there's a river alongside. Unless they have very convincing evidence which was not brought to light at the time, I fail to see how they can have a good case. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! > From what *I* recall, it's a narrow road, 2 large-ish vehicles and not > enough space, the tragedy is that there's a river alongside. Indeed, but as I think you said at the time (my memory may be failing me here), if there isn't enough space for two vehicles to pass, then if they both keep on going then surely that's not good judgement at all. If that *was* the case (and I have as much knowledge of the evidence as anyone else in here --- none at all) then that could well step over the boundaries of accident into careless driving. > Unless they have very convincing evidence which was not brought to light at > the time, I fail to see how they can have a good case. Maybe they didn't push it at the time due to the circumstances, but if they haven't got good evidence then they're bloody idiots, but I'd have thought that in such an emotive case they'd really have to have it in order to make a decision to prosecute. As for what good can come of a successful prosecution, that's harder to gauge really. It was either an accident or someone was to blame, and if it's thought that someone was to blame and that person suffered badly as a result of the accident, then I'm not sure whether just closing the case on compassionate grounds would be a good thing or a bad thing. On the one hand, they've suffered badly already and why twist the knife, on the other the person who caused the accident does not have the blame attached to them. If it did turn out that he drove the landy towards another car on a road on which there was no space to pass, in a vehicle containing all his family, and basically kept going until he threw it into the river, is that an accident or dangerous driving? That's a decision we're not informed enough to make, and personally I'm quite glad of that. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ > Maybe they didn't push it at the time due to the circumstances, but if > they haven't got good evidence then they're bloody idiots, but I'd > have thought that in such an emotive case they'd really have to have > it in order to make a decision to prosecute. Doing a bit more mooching around while trying to avoid exercise, I came across the following; http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/pbd_policy.html#16 The page is about the process of prosecution, selected bits are as follows; -------------------- We regard all bad driving as serious, particularly where it has led directly to the death or serious injury of another person. As a result, the public interest in cases of bad driving, where death or serious injury has occurred, will almost always be in favour of a prosecution. # In the past, the CPS adopted a different approach in cases where a death has occurred and the deceased was in a close personal or family relationship with the driver. It was based on the principle that the driver has suffered such enormous personal loss that it would be oppressive and insensitive to prosecute the driver for the bad driving offence that led to the death. # While we must always be able to exercise discretion in cases where prosecution would be oppressive or insensitive, we believe that the public interest will normally demand that a prosecution takes place in cases of causing death by dangerous driving or causing death by careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs or failing to provide a specimen, and that is now our policy in these cases. -------------------- It is however quite easy to read possibly too much into the above. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >>> I seem to recall it was the other driver who was at fault. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Unless they have very convincing evidence which was not brought to light at >the time, I fail to see how they can have a good case. Maybe we've just got to wait and see what evidence they do bring. Signaturehugh Reply to address is valid at the time of posting >> I seem to recall it was the other driver who was at fault. > > Where did you get that info from? The original writeup, the transit did not move over in spite of having plenty of room to do so. SignatureWisdom and experience come with age, they say, but I wish I could remember the darn question > The original writeup, the transit did not move over in spite of having > plenty of room to do so. Is that a reliable write-up I wonder, supported by the crash investigation? SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >>> I seem to recall it was the other driver who was at fault. >> >> Where did you get that info from? > >The original writeup, the transit did not move over in spite of having >plenty of room to do so. Even if the reporting was accurate that's a poor excuse. Regardless of whether the other vehicle moved over or not the LR shouldn't have been travelling at a speed that would result in it leaving the road! >>>> I seem to recall it was the other driver who was at fault. >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > shouldn't have been travelling at a speed that would result in it > leaving the road! Bollocks, do you know that road? I do & all it would take is a wheel off by a few inches & you're f.cked, good & proper. SignatureNige, 'It takes a nation of millions to hold me back'. Range Rover Td6 Vogue BMW K1200S FOCUS ST3 > Bollocks, do you know that road? I do & all it would take is a wheel off by > a few inches & you're f.cked, good & proper. Nige, you're not contradicting him. If you were on that road in a car loaded with kids, would you try and pass another car coming the other way? It looks like one of the two drivers did, and one of them's being prosecuted for it. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >> Bollocks, do you know that road? I do & all it would take is a wheel off >> by [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pass another car coming the other way? It looks like one of the two > drivers did, and one of them's being prosecuted for it. You don't have a choice at whatever speed, it's a shitty road with a big drop into the drink. It's cuaght loads out before & will do so again & none of them (i'm aware) have been prosecuted for DDE. SignatureNige, 'It takes a nation of millions to hold me back'. Range Rover Td6 Vogue BMW K1200S FOCUS ST3 > You don't have a choice at whatever speed, it's a shitty road with a big > drop into the drink. It's cuaght loads out before & will do so again & none > of them (i'm aware) have been prosecuted for DDE. Well, in this case, four kids died, they were his kids, and the CPS state that normally they don't prosecute when family or friends of the accused die, but they are doing so in this case. And that's all we know. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ > If you were on that road in a car loaded with kids, would you try and > pass another car coming the other way? It looks like one of the two > drivers did, and one of them's being prosecuted for it. Unhappily, I've got to agree with this .. without knowing all the facts ... but presumably the Police do, hence the further proceedings. SignaturePaul - xxx '96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi 'Big and Butch' Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp "When I feel fit enough' Nige typed: >>>>> I seem to recall it was the other driver who was at fault. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Bollocks, do you know that road? I do & all it would take is a wheel > off by a few inches & you're f.cked, good & proper. A very good reason to drive slowly and carefully, then. SignatureRich B Take out the obvious to email me. A life? Cool - where can I download one of those? I have sent my protestations to the CPS along the lines of has he not suffered enough. Why the hell was he remanded in custody after being charged only to appear later on in the day before the magistrates - thats really cruel, and I suggested to the CPS that whoever decided that bit needs to be named, shamed and forced to resign! I also pointed out that the name of the other driver has never been revealed - is it a state secret I go on to wonder? I have asked the CPS to reply if they have the guts to - if they do, I will post it!!!! I think they will drive the poor man to suicide. Have a look at his blog at http://www.adadsheartbreak.co.uk/ - he obviously has not yet had the heart to complete the D-day bit! Also, the newsreels/papers are contemptously calling him by his surname - i.e. "Gresham appeared etc....." I have emailed a few and asked them to show a little respect for the man and address him as Mr. or Nigel Gresham - after all, he is not guilty of anything yet if at all - this may just be the CPS way of finding out what really did happen that fateful day. David J. Button > Nige typed: >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > A very good reason to drive slowly and carefully, then. <load of chest-beating bollocks> > I also pointed out that the name of the other driver has never been > revealed - is it a state secret I go on to wonder? I have asked the CPS to > reply if they have the guts to - if they do, I will post it!!!! You are a twat and a half. You've pre-judged the whole thing, know nothing about it and are now trying to witch-hunt the other driver. Has it ever occurred to you that those directly involved *might* just be better informed than you? Just because he's got a landy FFS. <rest of shite deleted> SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ Ian Rawlings - cant you write without being abusive. Whether or not Nigel was at fault, my contention is that he has suffered enough without having firstly to endure the lengthy wait of what, nearly 10 months, and then publicly prosecuted for killing his own kids!!!!!! It seems to go against the CPS own policy - there is no statement WHY they have decided on this course of action. I am just wondering why the other driver had remained a secret - not trying to witch hunt him or her. And I do concede that perhaps there is something going on here which we are not aware of - something we don't yet know. And those at the scene will always have the advantage of knowing exactly what happened and now, we will too during and after the court case!!!!! Try and be a little less abusive Ian and respect the opinions of other people even if they conflict with yours eh????? David > <load of chest-beating bollocks> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > <rest of shite deleted> > Ian Rawlings - cant you write without being abusive. Not when faced with an insult to the years of evolution our forbears have put in. > Whether or not Nigel was at fault, my contention is that he has suffered > enough without having firstly to endure the lengthy wait of what, nearly 10 > months, and then publicly prosecuted for killing his own kids!!!!!! I have posted a few times on this topic, not that you read anything before foaming at all and sundry. > It seems to go against the CPS own policy - there is no statement WHY they > have decided on this course of action. Of course not, they've not prosecuted him yet! > I am just wondering why the other > driver had remained a secret - not trying to witch hunt him or her. So why is it you want his name and will post it? > And I do concede that perhaps there is something going on here which we are > not aware of - something we don't yet know. And those at the scene will > always have the advantage of knowing exactly what happened and now, we will > too during and after the court case!!!!! Right, so shut up, don't post twaddle to the authorities (not that they'll take any notice) and stop demanding that the other driver's name is given to you so you can parade it. > Try and be a little less abusive Ian and respect the opinions of other > people even if they conflict with yours eh????? You get the respect you deserve. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ I said if I got a reply from the CPS I would post it. I said nothing about posting the other driver's name which I would not do whilst the matter is sub-judice. Seems you cannot read Ian - perhaps a trip back to infant school?????? David >> Ian Rawlings - cant you write without being abusive. > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > You get the respect you deserve. > I said if I got a reply from the CPS I would post it. I said nothing about > posting the other driver's name which I would not do whilst the matter is > sub-judice. You said; "I also pointed out that the name of the other driver has never been revealed - is it a state secret I go on to wonder? I have asked the CPS to reply if they have the guts to - if they do, I will post it!!!!" I see you're now trying to wheedle your way out of it? You've more than deserved a toasting, now please just sod off back into whatever hole you suddenly crawled out of. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >> Ian Rawlings - cant you write without being abusive. > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > You get the respect you deserve. As do you! SignatureWisdom and experience come with age, they say, but I wish I could remember the darn question > As do you! Oh sorry, forgive me for thinking before posting, I can see you don't approve of such things. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ David J. Button typed: > Whether or not Nigel was at fault, my contention is that he has > suffered enough without having firstly to endure the lengthy wait of > what, nearly 10 months, and then publicly prosecuted for killing his > own kids!!!!!! Sorry, David, but I can't agree. If we follow your logic, then anyone who kills his/her own children should be let off because they have already suffered enough. I'm sure you've seen cases in the news recently where that would be totally wrong. It is now for the courts to decide whether he has committed the offence of causing death by dangerous driving. They should have all the facts, whereas we only have what has so far been released. The words of the prosecutor ("This is a very sad case and we have spent a great deal of time reviewing the evidence and considering the public interest before making the decision to prosecute. It is not a decision which has been taken lightly given the tragic deaths of Mr Gresham's children and the loss he has suffered as their father") make me think that there is more to this than we know at the moment. Nigel may have been a good guy and a Land Rover owner, but there is clearly a case to answer. For what it's worth, I hope he is cleared, for all the reasons that people have stated here. But I don't think any of us are in a position to judge until we have heard the evidence. Would there be all this sympathy if he had been a city financier driving a big BMW? I wonder if people are letting tribal loyalty cloud the issue. SignatureRich B Take out the obvious to email me. > Ian Rawlings - cant you write without being abusive. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > David Well said, David! >> <load of chest-beating bollocks> >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ SignatureWisdom and experience come with age, they say, but I wish I could remember the darn question Interesting that you should say that GbH, when taken with what Nigel Gresham has posted in his blog her http://www.adadsheartbreak.co.uk/ the words in Stitched up posting "Just to say that something very nasty has been done, by someone I trusted. " David >> Ian Rawlings - cant you write without being abusive. >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >>> http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ > Interesting that you should say that GbH, when taken with what Nigel Gresham > has posted in his blog her http://www.adadsheartbreak.co.uk/ the words in > Stitched up posting "Just to say that something very nasty has been done, by > someone I trusted. > " So the CPS think he's done something wrong, his wife thinks he's done something wrong, but you think he's fine and the other driver has some secret significance? And you're prepared to fire off posts to people and moan at newspapers about imagined "bias" in their reporting based on the idea that they are calling him by his *last name*? How about your bias? Are you still pre-judging this case from a very great distance or have you decided to smarten up and stop taking sides based on someone's choice of car. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ Maybe, but for the grace of god, go i, or you Ian, or any other car owner, whether land rover or not. I cannot help but wonder why the secrecy over the other driver, and also a lack of any statement (unless there was one and its been suppressed) from him or her at the coroners inquest or indeed publicly. Why did the CPS take 10 months to decide? Thats a long time to wait with a sword hanging over your head. We are all guessing - it will all come out eventually! >> Interesting that you should say that GbH, when taken with what Nigel >> Gresham [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > distance or have you decided to smarten up and stop taking sides based > on someone's choice of car. > Maybe, but for the grace of god, go i, or you Ian, or any other car owner, > whether land rover or not. Not really, that's in an accidental case, which this may or may not be. > I cannot help but wonder why the secrecy over the other driver, and also a > lack of any statement (unless there was one and its been suppressed) from > him or her at the coroners inquest or indeed publicly. You've still not explained why you think the other drivers' name should be revealed or that they've not spoken out, and why this is suspicious. > Why did the CPS take 10 months to decide? Thats a long time to wait with a > sword hanging over your head. Did they take 10 months to decide, is that unreasonable, and did his wife's decision play a part in the delay, and did extra evidence (including additional statements) come to light later in the case, or is it all down to the CPS who surely must be incompetent idiots and the country is going to the dogs etc? > We are all guessing - it will all come out eventually! Yes we are all guessing, but some of us are firing off angry letters to the authorities and demanding that the other driver is revealed, and others are stomping about moaning about the justice system and how it's going the dogs. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >Maybe, but for the grace of god, go i, or you Ian, or any other car >owner, whether land rover or not. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ Presumably the other driver will be called as a witness if the case for the prosecution revolves around Mr Gresham's driving. I don't think it's normal for the CPS to list witness names prior to the case is it? An open invitation for our high minded press to go waving their cheque books. Signaturehugh Reply to address is valid at the time of posting > Interesting that you should say that GbH, when taken with what Nigel > Gresham [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> Wisdom and experience come with age, they say, but I wish I could >> remember the darn question I have not snipped this post to prove what a gibbon f.cking mong you are. SignatureNige, 'It takes a nation of millions to hold me back'. Range Rover Td6 Vogue BMW K1200S FOCUS ST3 > Also, the newsreels/papers are contemptously calling him by his surname - > i.e. "Gresham appeared etc....." That's often an indicator that the man has been 'leaked' against and the press knows some detail that isn't yet in the public realm. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > Nige typed: >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > A very good reason to drive slowly and carefully, then. Exactly, the problem here is it is a f.cking knife edge between ok & not ok thats not actually that easy to spot. SignatureNige, 'It takes a nation of millions to hold me back'. Range Rover Td6 Vogue BMW K1200S FOCUS ST3 >Bollocks, do you know that road? I do & all it would take is a wheel off by >a few inches & you're f.cked, good & proper. In which case there's all the more reason to take it steady! >> Bollocks, do you know that road? I do & all it would take is a wheel off >> by >> a few inches & you're f.cked, good & proper. > > In which case there's all the more reason to take it steady! In fairness, i don't know if he was doing 100mph, i'm saying it's a bad road. The truth will come out at some stage, but it's not very fair not to name everyone involved in the case, unless the other driver was a child. SignatureNige, 'It takes a nation of millions to hold me back'. Range Rover Td6 Vogue BMW K1200S FOCUS ST3 > In fairness, i don't know if he was doing 100mph, i'm saying it's a bad > road. The truth will come out at some stage, but it's not very fair not to > name everyone involved in the case, unless the other driver was a child. Not really, especially in a case like this, you'd have a whole shitload of landy owners going off half-cocked trying to hunt the driver down for a start. Personally I don't think anyone in any court case should be named until the case has been heard and only then if someone gets sentenced. Dragging people's names through the muck for everyone to see and leap to conclusions doesn't seem helpful. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >> In fairness, i don't know if he was doing 100mph, i'm saying it's a bad >> road. The truth will come out at some stage, but it's not very fair not [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Dragging people's names through the muck for everyone to see and leap > to conclusions doesn't seem helpful. Yeah, but why name anyone then? I can't believe for one minute there would be loads of Landy owners gunning for him. SignatureNige, 'It takes a nation of millions to hold me back'. Range Rover Td6 Vogue BMW K1200S FOCUS ST3 > Yeah, but why name anyone then? That's kind of what I'd prefer to be honest. In most cases they eventually release the names of the victims, but not normally that of those also around at the time, and they don't even normally name the accused until there *is* an accused, and even then they don't always name them. Incidental characters don't get named normally from what I've seen. > I can't believe for one minute there would be loads of Landy owners > gunning for him. Probably not, but if he (or she) isn't a suspect then there's nothing to be gained from naming them, and you can be damned sure that tongues will start wagging and people will put 2 and 2 together and make 22. If someone crashed into your rangie and died, and your name was released despite not having any real part to play, I'm sure you'd be unhappy and there'd bound to be some fuckwits who'd start the old "no smoke without fire" dance, or someone who would blame you for it for no particular reason and so on. There's too many people watching for there not to be a few fuckwits and it only takes one or two to piss you off and get in the way. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ Anyone read this? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/07/22/crash-dad-on-rap "Jaswant Kaur Narwal, chief crown prosecutor, said: "This is a very sad case and we have spent a great deal of time reviewing the evidence and considering the public interest before making the decision to prosecute." The court heard the vehicle was made from five different cars. Prosecutor Sue Holden said: "It was totally unroadworthy." He was bailed until July 29." Mike Well that's me pretty much buggered if I have a crash like that too then. This is a travesty. How can they claim it unroadworthy 9 months later?????????? And what "parts" of the 5 vehicles are there - surely there's only ONE chassis??? SignatureNeil > This is a travesty. Oh FFS here we go again. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ ??>> This is a travesty. IR> Oh FFS here we go again. *I was referring the the "built from 5 vehicles" reason. Who here has an older LR built completely from 1? SignatureNeil > *I was referring the the "built from 5 vehicles" reason. Who here has an > older LR built completely from 1? No idea, how significant is it in this case and what state is the vehicle concerned in, given you think it's "a travesty". No vehicle is built from one if you're going to be pedantic, I've replaced my wipers for example. WRT to this case, the state of the vehicle was investigated a long time ago IIRC so the Sun may just be catching up. Also whether a charge of dangerous driving would be bought against someone driving such a vehicle I don't know, I'd have thought more specific ones existed for that. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ And there is more. http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/ Click on " Dad in court accused of killing children" "The prosecutor added that the Crown's case was based upon alleged mechanical defects to the Land Rover's braking, steering and suspension." I think we should reserve judgement until full details are given in the trial. Mike >And there is more. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I think we should reserve judgement until full details are given in the >trial. doubtless we should. However, all I will say is that I don't see how it's taken getting on for a year to decide whether or not the vehicle has major defects. It's not as if it's only just been recovered. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! >>"The prosecutor added that the Crown's case was based upon alleged >>mechanical defects to the Land Rover's braking, steering and suspension." [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > if > it's only just been recovered. Almost certainly the delay has been caused by the time taken to decide to prosecute. They say they don't usually prosecute in such cases so the decision to prosecute 'goes against the set policy' and so the people who decided to prosecute will be at a very senior level. To get to that level it will have been looked at by all the intervening levels, all who will have had the chance to kill it but decided not to... In simple terms, the file has spent most of the time sitting in someone's 'in-tray' after being kicked upstairs because this one's too hot to handle... (Can't you just tell I was in the public service for years...) SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > Almost certainly the delay has been caused by the time taken to decide to > prosecute. That'll be just one of the factors, add in all the other delays, e.g. getting the vehicle out, it sitting around in a yard somewhere, being transported to the right place, sitting around in a queue there, a quick once-over, reports being written, it sitting around while the rest of the process grinds on, someone asks for more inspections, that filtering down, it being put in the queue for that, it being done, the reports being written, report sent upstream, sittign around in the queue to be read, action being proposed, checked, discussed, all with waits added and so on. Some people seem to think that the state just sits there with nothing whatsoever to do, then a case like this comes along and it can all be handled in a week, even in a complicated case. > (Can't you just tell I was in the public service for years...) Can't you tell I do business with the government a lot ;-) Mind you big business is no better, small businesses tend to make decisions quickly, but they're more often the wrong ones and much more highly dependent on individual failings and strengths, which isn't what you want from a government. Hasty decisions help no-one. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >>And there is more. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >year to decide whether or not the vehicle has major defects. It's not as if >it's only just been recovered. It hasn't. It's taken this period of time to bring all the issues together to make a decision to prosecute. Personally I don't see it as an unduly long time given the level at which the decision will have been taken. No doubt everything will have checked and doubled checked. Signaturehugh Reply to address is valid at the time of posting Thats very interesting, when taken with part of Nigel's blog http://www.adadsheartbreak.co.uk/?m=200807&paged=3 item 3 commencing with the words "The CPS" However, there is nothing wrong at all with building a vehicle up from several different vehicle parts so long as its done properly. How did it come to have an MOT if it was that unroadworthy and if it did have an MOT, how come the MOT inspector concerned is not stood in the dock too? There are lots of questions - we will have to wait until the court case gets rolling, but that mirror report does give us a clue in that it appears to be being alleged the vehicle was not fit to be on the road - a bit inconsistent with the safety concerns of the driver who belted all his kids in proper harnesses, not just lap and diags, and two of them were in proper child seats. > Well that's me pretty much buggered if I have a crash like that too then. > > This is a travesty. How can they claim it unroadworthy 9 months > later?????????? And what "parts" of the 5 vehicles are there - surely > there's only ONE chassis??? > Anyone read this? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Mike So who/what is being prosecuted? The driver or the vehicle? Define totally and unroadworthy? SignatureWisdom and experience come with age, they say, but I wish I could remember the darn question > Don't know if you all remember the sad story that broke earlier this > year about the Gresham family and the tragic accident that cost 4 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > WTF ?? Jeez. One of the teachers at our school is either an auntie or a niece of his, we were talking about it only the other day just before schools broke up. As has already been said there must be something new come to light for them to wait this long before charging him. IMHO he's suffered enough whatever the circumstances, and will continue to suffer for the rest of his life. To charge him now is just twisting the knife so it hurts even more. SignaturePaul - xxx '96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi 'Big and Butch' Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp "When I feel fit enough' > Don't know if you all remember the sad story that broke earlier this year > about the Gresham family and the tragic accident that cost 4 kids their [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > WTF ?? I don't recall all the details, but from what I remember thinking at the time, wasn't there too many children in a 110 to make it legal? I thought children were not allowed to be carried in side facing seats, and surely with the number ok children in the vehicle, that was the case? I don't know if the prosecution is related to this, and they are trying to make a point, but it seems a rather too far whatever is the reason. Matt >> Don't know if you all remember the sad story that broke earlier this year >> about the Gresham family and the tragic accident that cost 4 kids their [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >trying to make a point, but it seems a rather too far whatever is the >reason. As far as I know it's fine if they're your children. If you take other people's children on "organised journeys" it's a whole nother ballgame. They don't even have to wear belts[1]. Although note my comment WRT strapped in kids in an underwater situation. [1] they must wear restraints if such can be used. They can't, on sideways seats. Also, you can probably only fit 2 in a 110 middle row. Otherwise, they should (if not "small children") be wearing adult belts if these are available. depending on the age of the defender, it might not have had even middle-row belts, as the legislation requiring "rear" belts to be fitted post-dates 110s. I can give you chapter and verse on this... but I won't. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! If you look at some of the pictures which are on the internet post recovery of the vehicle from the river, you can see seat belts all over the place - the ones in the rearmost area for the bench seats appear to be rally type harnesses belts - potentially its these that caused the kids to be unable to free themselves particularly bearing in mind that the vehicle appears to have rolled. Those types of belt would be an asset in almost any situation except the one that this family suffered. >>> Don't know if you all remember the sad story that broke earlier this >>> year [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > I can give you chapter and verse on this... but I won't. >If you look at some of the pictures which are on the internet post recovery >of the vehicle from the river, you can see seat belts all over the place - [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >have rolled. Those types of belt would be an asset in almost any situation >except the one that this family suffered. There's talk of defective steering/brakes/suspension. Now, we've all driven a vehicle knowing that part of it was a bit dodgy, but I for one would be surprised if Gresh did knowing that he had the whole family on board, especially, I'd be surprised if it had defective steering, brakes AND suspension. One fault, maybe.... we'll see what transpires. I get the impression that there may have been some manoeuvring behind the scenes and people casting allegations around, maybe out of spite or other such motive. That's pure speculation on my part, but it's something that sadly does happen. *If* that's the case, then we hope that justice will prevail. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! On 24 Jul, 08:15, Austin Shackles <austinDITCHTHISFORBETTERRESU...@ddol-las.net> wrote: > There's talk of defective steering/brakes/suspension. Now, we've all driven > a vehicle knowing that part of it was a bit dodgy, but I for one would be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > sadly does happen. *If* that's the case, then we hope that justice will > prevail. I agree Austin - I think everybody saying anything should hold off until the complete story comes out - and preferably by reading it about it by official reports not via rephrased newspaper articles. Since the man appears to be going through a messy divorce since the accident - and the ex wife now appears to have the children since the verdict i'm sure that cant have helped with anything and all the vague reports and allegations that are now being hinted at. All the the articles I have seen also seem to have missed the fact that the kids died because they were too well strapped in! That doesn't strike me as the actions of an irresponsible parent/badly maintained vehicle owner (obviously misinformed about seatbelts - but i have never thought that being held in to well could be a bad thing until after all this, so i might have used the same approach as I had never considered this aspect of child belts before.) >>If you look at some of the pictures which are on the internet post recovery >>of the vehicle from the river, you can see seat belts all over the place - [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >sadly does happen. *If* that's the case, then we hope that justice will >prevail. What I do disagree with is the leaking of information regarding the results of the vehicle examination. This should be first disclosed to the jury in court. One other comment. Headline in today's Guardian - "Father Charged over girl's death on quad bike." (He is a RR owner) Charged with manslaughter by gross neglect. Allegedly took his two young kids out on to a country road, he in his RR, them following on behind on their quad bikes. At least the CPS are being consistent. So my question is should he be prosecuted or has he too suffered enough? If you think so, where do you draw the line? Signaturehugh Reply to address is valid at the time of posting > So my question is should he be prosecuted or has he too suffered enough? > If you think so, where do you draw the line? I posted the CPS's thinking on this fairly on in the thread, normally they don't prosecute when the accused has suffered badly but they do on serious cases when the driver was particularly at fault, especially when drink or drugs were involved. If it really is down to vehicle condition then it must have been a real basket-case. One worry is that my landy some time ago had defective brakes and steering that was about to come apart, this was caught in a routine service, but had been done a few months prior to that during a hard off-roading session when I still bashed the truck around on off-road courses like it was some kind of tank (I was very inexperienced with cars and off-roading at the time), the swan-neck on the steering drop link was hanging off. It may have been the off-roading he did in the truck that put it into a dangerous state, and I think that may well be very relevant to the group as a whole. In a separate incident I cut my tyres so badly they were dangerous and one blew out at speed, again that was off-road damage, the kind of thing I do check for now I'm more experienced. So basically be bloody careful with your off-road truck particularly if you're going to load it up with your entire family. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >I get the impression that there may have been some manoeuvring behind >the scenes and people casting allegations around, maybe out of spite or >other such motive. That's pure speculation on my part, but it's >something that sadly does happen. *If* that's the case, then we hope >that justice will prevail. I suspect Mr. Gresham, with whom my sympathies undoubtedly lie, is being prosecuted for ultimately political reasons. The government hates our sort of Land Rovers: we're eco-friendly, we're stubbornly independently-minded, and they get proportionately little revenue from our sort of motoring (fuel tax notwithstanding!). We also represent a celebration of _British_ achievement, when these days we must all be good little Europeans. Our vehicles, being the safest on the roads (or off them!), give the lie to the airbags/speed cameras/traffic management thought police. In short, if you are of a certain mindset (which many in local and national administration are), we represent a threat. Any opportunity to present Land Rover enthusiasts as irresponsible and dangerous, and thus attack the very existence of our vehicles "... which should be taken off the road for the public good" (you can hear it coming), will not be passed over. I predict Mr.Gresham will have the book thrown at him, as it suits too many in authority for them not to do so. I think it's unfair and certainly not natural justice, but such is the country we now live in. Regards, S. PS: If you want concrete examples of this type of thinking, I refer you to any statements on road safety by the Chief Constable of North Wales, and, even more chillingly, to the former EU Transport Commissioner, Martin Bangemann, who famously expressed a wish for all motorcycles to be banned permanently from EU roads, and campaigned for 1930s-style leg protectors to be compulsory. Regards, Simonm. Signaturesimonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU http://www.eurofaq.freeuk.com/ GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TDi'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/ > I suspect Mr. Gresham, with whom my sympathies undoubtedly lie, is being > prosecuted for ultimately political reasons. Bloody idiot. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ > I suspect Mr. Gresham, with whom my sympathies undoubtedly lie, is being > prosecuted for ultimately political reasons. > > The government hates our sort of Land Rovers: we're eco-friendly, we're > stubbornly independently-minded, and they get proportionately little > revenue from our sort of motoring (fuel tax notwithstanding!). You seriously believe a politician had some sort of involvement in the decision to prosecute? If any politician did so it would be instant death for their career if it came out, and in the current climate the Civil Service is leaking stuff like this at every oportunity... Don't be daft. > PS: If you want concrete examples of this type of thinking, I refer you to > any statements on road safety by the Chief Constable of North Wales, and, > even more chillingly, to the former EU Transport Commissioner, Martin > Bangemann, who famously expressed a wish for all motorcycles to be banned > permanently from EU roads, and campaigned for 1930s-style leg protectors > to be compulsory. Bangemann and his leg protectors have been history for well over a decade now. Do try and keep up... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> I suspect Mr. Gresham, with whom my sympathies undoubtedly lie, is being >> prosecuted for ultimately political reasons. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >You seriously believe a politician had some sort of involvement in the >decision to prosecute? The CPS is nothing if not a political creature. It may be the sum of many little conversations, or perhaps political aides ringing-up and asking direct questions (I concede that's unlikely). I doubt very much it's a straight directive from the Home Office, but I would be surprised if ears haven't been whispered into. >If any politician did so it would be instant death for their career if it >came out, and in the current climate the Civil Service is leaking stuff >like this at every oportunity... "I asked the CPS to take a very thorough look at this case, because of the number of such vehicles on the roads and the danger they pose to the public. An example must be made, to ensure such a tragedy doesn't happen again." Come on, you were in the CS, you could write it yourself! >> PS: If you want concrete examples of this type of thinking, I refer you to >> any statements on road safety by the Chief Constable of North Wales, and, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Bangemann and his leg protectors have been history for well over a decade >now. Indeed so (although according to Wikipedia he's still active in German national politics), but the attitude of 'we know what's best for you, so just do it" prevails, particularly in the marble halls of the EU. Regards, Simonm. Signaturesimonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU http://www.eurofaq.freeuk.com/ GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TDi'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/ > "I asked the CPS to take a very thorough look at this case, because of the > number of such vehicles on the roads and the danger they pose to the > public. An example must be made, to ensure such a tragedy doesn't happen > again." > > Come on, you were in the CS, you could write it yourself! If anyone was daft enough to write the words 'an example must...' they fully deserve to get the sack. Those sort of terms are reserved for judges. A real Civil Servant would write 'It would be unfortunate if someone was thought to have been made an example of at this time and care must be taken to ensure that any prosecution of such a case is sucessful'. The real decision will have been made after the meeting by the chair of the meeting. But no career politician will have been involved in any provable way. They'll also need a cast iron case to convict a man whose children are dead, the jury may just refuse to convict if his defence is adequate. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >> "I asked the CPS to take a very thorough look at this case, because of the >> number of such vehicles on the roads and the danger they pose to the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Those sort of terms are reserved for judges. And politicians - the group I meant (you as a CS would've no doubt noted that type of phraseology in political posturing, if not literally then in principle). >A real Civil Servant would write > 'It would be unfortunate if someone was >thought to have been made an example of at this time and care must be taken [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >But no career politician will have been involved in any provable way. I understand and agree, and note particularly your last adjective above. That was pretty much my initial thought. >They'll also need a cast iron case to convict a man whose children are dead, >the jury may just refuse to convict if his defence is adequate. That's their challenge, and, if his defence IS adequate, the CPS have a job on. It doesn't however prevent it being another horrible ordeal for the Gresham family, and of questionable necessity. Unless, of course, there is another agenda. Regards, Simonm. Signaturesimonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU http://www.eurofaq.freeuk.com/ GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TDi'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/ >>They'll also need a cast iron case to convict a man whose children are >>dead, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Gresham family, and of questionable necessity. Unless, of course, there is > another agenda. I doubt that very much. This is a really bad case to use to make someone an example of. After what has been said here over the past day or so I'm starting to think there must be some technical evidence we don't know about. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > After what has been said here over the past day or so I'm starting to think > there must be some technical evidence we don't know about. No no, it's the f.cking Illuminati, the jews and the freemasons *again*... SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >> After what has been said here over the past day or so I'm starting >> to think there must be some technical evidence we don't know about. > > No no, it's the f.cking Illuminati, the jews and the freemasons > *again*... Aren't some people lucky we still have free speech in this country, however, would be wise not to abuse that priviledge! SignatureWisdom and experience come with age, they say, but I wish I could remember the darn question > Aren't some people lucky we still have free speech in this country, > however, would be wise not to abuse that priviledge! What are you on about? SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ >> Aren't some people lucky we still have free speech in this country, >> however, would be wise not to abuse that priviledge! > > What are you on about? You seem to be marching to a different tune to the general concensus! SignatureWisdom and experience come with age, they say, but I wish I could remember the darn question > You seem to be marching to a different tune to the general concensus! You appear to be tone deaf! So the general consensus isn't that we don't know what happened, it's that this case is entirely political? You are losing the plot as much as Mr. Conspiracy. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! http://youtube.com/user/tarcus69 http://www.flickr.com/photos/tarcus/sets/ Ian Rawlings typed: >> After what has been said here over the past day or so I'm starting >> to think there must be some technical evidence we don't know about. > > No no, it's the f.cking Illuminati, the jews and the freemasons > *again*... Oi! It was nowt to do with me! SignatureWorshipful Magus Revd Solly Goldberg 110 V8 CSW SpamTrapSeeSig typed: >> I get the impression that there may have been some manoeuvring behind >> the scenes and people casting allegations around, maybe out of spite [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > safest on the roads (or off them!), give the lie to the airbags/speed > cameras/traffic management thought police. In was wondering when the conspiracy theorists would emerge. > PS: If you want concrete examples of this type of thinking, I refer > you to any statements on road safety by the Chief Constable of North > Wales, and, even more chillingly, to the former EU Transport > Commissioner, Martin Bangemann, who famously expressed a wish for all > motorcycles to be banned permanently from EU roads, and campaigned > for 1930s-style leg protectors to be compulsory. And the 100 bhp limit, another favourite of Bangemann. None of which ever came to pass, of course (the leg protector issue went away when it was clearly demonstrated that they increased, rather than prevented, injury - a victory for rationality and evidence-based legislation). So much for the grand conspiracy. SignatureRich B Take out the obvious to email me. A life? Cool - where can I download one of those? >And the 100 bhp limit, another favourite of Bangemann. None of which ever >came to pass, of course (the leg protector issue went away when it was >clearly demonstrated that they increased, rather than prevented, injury - a >victory for rationality and evidence-based legislation). So much for the >grand conspiracy. Ah, well, I was one of many who helped scupper the 100BHP limit. I've still got the t-shirt somewhere, but it's a fair bet it don't fit any more. Off to have a quick squint at the new toy, see if I can see anything obvious wrong with the steering/suspension. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! |
Enable EMail Alerts
Start New Thread
Reply to this Message