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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / October 2004heating oil as fuel
I've been told that you can run a diesel engine on domestic heating oil. I don't intend trying it as it would be naughty but is this true? he said he mixes it with a quarter diesel. Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)  Signature_________________________________________ www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk 1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D (3,000 rivets flying in close formation) _________________________________________ > I've been told that you can run a diesel engine on domestic heating > oil. > I don't intend trying it as it would be naughty but is this true? > he said he mixes it with a quarter diesel. It's near enough the same stuff, but with a red dye in it. You don't want the excise boys catching you running it though - you'll certainly get a fine and you may get a holiday. http://www.sdc.org.uk/general/features/feature_fuel.htm SignatureEMB change two to the number to reply >> I've been told that you can run a diesel engine on domestic heating >> oil. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >http://www.sdc.org.uk/general/features/feature_fuel.htm there are in fact 2 classes of heating oil commonly sold, C2 and D, and diesel engines will technically run on either, and also on AVTUR, (AViation TURbine fuel) hence why all the military contracts are now for diesel engines. However, it doesn't have the same additive pack in it, which will mean more emissions, and less lubrication of the pump, and eventual failures of all kinds. The C2 oil ain't red, but don't let that fool you; it's got chemical markers in it, as indeed so has the red stuff. >>> I've been told that you can run a diesel engine on domestic heating >>> oil. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >The C2 oil ain't red, but don't let that fool you; it's got chemical markers >in it, as indeed so has the red stuff. There is also a marker chemical as well as the dye that shows up under chromatographic analysis as a steep spike even when diluted with fresh revenue based road diesel for some time afterwards. If you get caught, even if your fuel doesn't look pink, any sample will still give a peak at the timed interval during analysis and it's up to you to prove how few miles you used non-revenue fuel for. The customs and excise might even let you buy your vehicle back if you are lucky... Dan Do you actually have people going around sampling your fuel? Or is this an urban myth? Seems hard to believe. I can understand them checking fuel retailers but individuals? Ron Emu Plains, Australia > >>> I've been told that you can run a diesel engine on domestic heating > >>> oil. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Dan > Do you actually have people going around sampling your fuel? Yes! Our Customs and Excise are second only to the present UK Government in terms of the amount of their interference in our private lives. (As part of the govenment machine I suppose that's to be expected) Not only under Blair have we become more of a police state but a more heavily taxed one at that - they can't keep their smutty fingers out of anything. Having lived in the bundu for a while, I would love to witness the Aussie reaction to a fuel test in the middle of the dry. John H > Do you actually have people going around sampling your fuel? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Ron > Emu Plains, Australia > Do you actually have people going around sampling your fuel? Yes they do. I can bear testament to how nasty the fsckers get when they find the wrong diesel in the vehicle too. When I was living in Wales I got sprung in a company vehicle with red diesel in it (accidental fill up by a plonker I worked with) and all hell broke loose. They let us off with a warning after 3 weeks without the vehicle and much legal intervention. SignatureEMB change two to the number to reply Flamin' heck! Do they do it at random or because someone has told them you are using untaxed fuel? What about biodiesel? Do they query that too? Ron > > Do you actually have people going around sampling your fuel? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > loose. They let us off with a warning after 3 weeks without the vehicle > and much legal intervention. >Flamin' heck! > >Do they do it at random or because someone has told them you are using untaxed >fuel? > >What about biodiesel? Do they query that too? "proper" biodiesel no, as it's sold officially and has a (reduced) duty on it. However, they're not amused by people buying cheap cooking oil to run their cars on. > Flamin' heck! > > Do they do it at random or because someone has told them you are using untaxed > fuel? My stop was random - they were testing all sorts of diesel vehicles. SignatureEMB change two to the number to reply Gawd! I feel sorry for you blokes (not really <grin>) At least our fuel is still about 1/3 the cost of yours and I can afford to run a 4.6 - albeit mostly on LPG - I fuelled up last night.with 80 litres of petrol and 70 litres of LPG and the total cost was A$102 - about 41 quid. Ron > > Flamin' heck! > > > > Do they do it at random or because someone has told them you are using untaxed > > fuel? > > My stop was random - they were testing all sorts of diesel vehicles. there is definately no red colouring dye or tracers in central heating oil , it is just plain old kerosene , white in colour . i buy enough of it for use in heating systems to know the difference . the only one with a colour dye in is paraffin , same as in the old "esso blue" , but thats LAMP OIL . . heating oil is 23p per litre . if you do wish to filter any then i think you need fullers earth and a decent fuel filter . > there is definately no red colouring dye or tracers in central heating oil , > it is just plain old kerosene , white in colour . Wrong! There are two types of heating oil around in the UK. One is what most would descibe as red diesel and the other is the kerosene that you recognise. David >> there is definately no red colouring dye or tracers in central heating oil , >> it is just plain old kerosene , white in colour . [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >would descibe as red diesel and the other is the kerosene that you >recognise. although I'd lay good odds that there are chemical markers in both. HMC&E take a very dimm view of people using non-duty-paid fuel in vehicles and take considerable steps to make sure they can find out if you are. On Monday, in article <4M-dnddhmey2PvzcRVn-ug@eclipse.net.uk> > > there is definately no red colouring dye or tracers in central heating oil , > > it is just plain old kerosene , white in colour . [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > would descibe as red diesel and the other is the kerosene that you > recognise. Well, it is red diesel -- it's what we ran the farm tractors on. We never had any hassle from Customs & Excise, even when we were running a car on diesel. It was sometimes a bit confusing what the supplier wouid call it. But then we didn't turn up at a livestock market with a trailer and a diesel Land Rover. They do seem to do a lot of checking that's somehow targeted, where they expect to be able to sample a lot of vehicles. SignatureDavid G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger. "History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee was bitten by a radioactive spider." >On Monday, in article > <4M-dnddhmey2PvzcRVn-ug@eclipse.net.uk> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >diesel Land Rover. They do seem to do a lot of checking that's somehow >targeted, where they expect to be able to sample a lot of vehicles. and also where there are likely to be more offenders. however, there are 2 grades of heating oil commonly available, C2 kerosene and D. I expect diesel engines will run after a fashion on either. The military's decision to have everything diesel powered is about being able, if needed, to run the vehicles on AVTUR (AViation TURbine fuel) which is also kerosene in some form. > >But then we didn't turn up at a livestock market with a trailer and a > >diesel Land Rover. They do seem to do a lot of checking that's somehow [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > if needed, to run the vehicles on AVTUR (AViation TURbine fuel) which is > also kerosene in some form. OTish, but I remember some years ago looking over an army Gazelle helicopter and noticed the refuelling point. It had stencilled in BIG letters AVTUR. However, it also had a list of other possible fuels it could be filled with in extremis and the list was long. It included the forementioned AVTUR and also the AVTAG and AVCAT varieties, but could also use AVGAS, MOGAS, KERO and DIESO. I can't remember the full list now but I wouldn't be surprised if it had also included FFO, cook-house chip fat, dead cats, ditch water and rat wee. Steve > OTish, but I remember some years ago looking over an army Gazelle helicopter > and noticed the refuelling point. It had stencilled in BIG letters AVTUR. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > if it had also included FFO, cook-house chip fat, dead cats, ditch water and > rat wee. Indeed! AVTUR is nato code F34, it is basically KERO with an additive pack, AL38. This pack comprises Fuel System Icing Inhibitor (FSII) commonly referred to as "fizzy" and HYTEC, a lubricity additive. AVTAG and AVCAT are variations of a theme, one doesn't have the FSII additive and the other is, I think, a "Wide-Cut" fuel which was used by the navy mainly, due to a higher flash-point for fire safety on ships. Our poor relations across the pond devised a civillianised system for aviation fuels (which their military use, ignoring the Nato designations!) which has different designations again, JP8 being the same as AVTUR or F34, JET-A1 being AVTUR without the AL38 additive pack. AVGAS is 100/110 octane petrol, used to be low-lead (hence all the stories of car engines blowing up in the past!) but is now lead-free and not in wide military use. MOGAS is a new one on me, but MTGAS used to be in wide use in the days of the S111 landys. MOD policy now is to buy only diesels that will run on AVTUR, certainly for vehicles that may see action, as this means transportation of one fuel only to a remote zone. FWIW, the Gazelle was reputed to run on any liquidised hydrocarbon at all!! Badger. > Indeed! AVTUR is nato code F34, it is basically KERO with an additive pack, > AL38. This pack comprises Fuel System Icing Inhibitor (FSII) commonly > referred to as "fizzy" and HYTEC, a lubricity additive. > AVTAG and AVCAT are variations of a theme, one doesn't have the FSII > additive and the other is, I think, a "Wide-Cut" fuel which was used by the > navy mainly, due to a higher flash-point for fire safety on ships. Yep, I think a little allowance had to be made for the different specific gravity of the fuels if you filled up with "non-standard" brew too (i.e. not your home base fuel). > Our poor relations across the pond devised a civillianised system for > aviation fuels (which their military use, ignoring the Nato designations!) > which has different designations again, JP8 being the same as AVTUR or F34, > JET-A1 being AVTUR without the AL38 additive pack. I think JP4 is/was AVTAG equivalent - mostly used in Germany and by the rest of European NATO. > AVGAS is 100/110 octane petrol, used to be low-lead (hence all the stories > of car engines blowing up in the past!) but is now lead-free and not in wide > military use. Again, IIRC, AVGAS was 100/130 octane (and a very pretty blue colour). You could also get 145 octane, but I think they were all leaded fuels. The advent of the new AVGAS 100LL is where the Low-Lead came in. The blowing up stories were probably urban myth put about to deter pilfering!! > MOGAS is a new one on me, but MTGAS used to be in wide use in the days of > the S111 landys. MOGAS - MOtor GASoline, i.e. car (98 RON) petrol. It's possibly more of an aviators term/abbreviation to differentiate it from AVGAS and the dog-food RON MTGAS. > MOD policy now is to buy only diesels that will run on AVTUR, certainly for > vehicles that may see action, as this means transportation of one fuel only > to a remote zone. The added bonus is that they don't have spark plugs that get wet when you have to splish aggressively through a few puddles! "Sorry, can't fight - too many puddles". > FWIW, the Gazelle was reputed to run on any liquidised hydrocarbon at all!! > Badger. the 2 types of heating oil i am referring to are both white in colour . the first is "28 second" kerosene which is what is used mainly in oil fired central heating systems and workshop heating systems . this 28sec kerosene "can" be used in diesel engines ,and it is white in colour as is white diesel , but of course i must stress using it on the road isnt legal due to no excise duty being paid on it .. the only problem with using 28 sec is that if you have a rotary injection pump the 28sec fuel will not sufficiently lubricate the pump internals on its own , hence why many people use a 50/50 mix of white diesel and 28sec burning oil . of course if you wanted to play with mixture levels you could put motorcycle 2 stroke oil in with the 28sec heating oil and it will then have lubrication , but i do not know the levels of mix reqd . the other type of "heating" oil i refer to is paraffin and this is white in colour and is zero octane rated , this is also known as lamp oil. red diesel i was not referring to , as we all know what this is and that it contains dye ... > the 2 types of heating oil i am referring to are both white in > colour . [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > red diesel i was not referring to , as we all know what this is and > that it contains dye ... Nearly - 28 second is Kerosene (which is Paraffin) and will run a diesel engine, but have low power output(and you can smell it in the exhaust a mile off). The other type is 35 second and is Diesel and contains a chemical marker and is also often red. one of the agents put in kerosene and diesel are to be able to trace back to where the fuel came from and when and where it was manufactured , ie so batches can be traced , but this is put in all diesel/kerosene derived fuels and is not necessarily put in to detect if its being used in vehicles without excise duty having been paid , its more of a safety issue to do with HAZCHEM side of things .. . white diesel that is sold at garage forecourt pumps is mixed at the refineries with kerosene anyway , of the same as sold for heating oil . you could almost say that ULS diesel is just diesel with more kerosene added !!. kerosene is really an american derived word, in england we call it paraffin but both are of the same nature .. dont you remember there were allways 2 grades of diesel, winter and summer but now there is only one THIN viscosity diesel . diesel has gradually got thinner over the last few years . of course thinner viscosity diesel means you use more , hence the mileage run per litre costs us more if the fuel is thinner viscosity . the red and white diesel sold now have a strong smell of petrol , they didnt used to but how many people notice this . now then, .we could all run petrol cars on alcohol instead of petrol , but they wont let us because firstly the engines would make 20% more horsepower , but secondly they would use twice as much fuel also . in australia there is mainly only one price for diesel and everyone pays the same , but it is only £1.50 per gallon in our currency .. the only people who are paying less for diesel fuel there are called PRIMARY PRODUCERS ,ie farmers and they are discounted because they produce the primary food sources and they have to use a LOT of fuel in order to do so , hence the govt help them out . the 2 types of paraffin/kerosene sold here in the uk are zero and 25 octane rating . a TIP for anyone with a tired old smokey diesel engine who has MOT coming soon , fill tank with kerosene 28sec , this will dramatically reduce the smoke output from a smokey diesel engine . its an old "trick" used by many HGV fitters who regularly have to work on and test HGV vehicles and works for sure . i think that some people using this newsgroup may well be working for customs and excise . myself i dont run anything other than white diesel from the pumps and youre welcome to dip my tank anytime . if someone wants information about what they can use as fuel and what it is called and sold as then its up to them to make up theyre mind as to what they want to do , all ive i done is supply the relevent information without making a technical issue out of it . > I've been told that you can run a diesel engine on domestic heating > oil. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Regards. > Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.) Works perfectly well, but has different (less) excise paid on it - which leads to considerable interest by law enforcement agents if you get caught doing it! Several garage proprietors in this state got caught doing this last year on a large scale. JD there is a lot of propaganda posted about using kerosene in diesel engines but yes you can run diesels on kerosene heating oil , its white also ,no red dye at present . in order to have some lubrication you can use motorcycle 2 stroke oil mixed in , i dont know the mix quantities but you can play with that and at 23p per litre for heating oil its up to you what you do . you can also add fuel additive like MORRIS MORENDO DD . there are 2 types of burning oil , one for heating systems and one which is essentially TVO [tractor vapourising oil ] or lamp oil .. fact : in the mercedes ML370 4x4 owners handbook it states you can run in winter when its very cold on a mixture of 50/50 diesel and kerosene , what better an advert .. there used to be 2 grades of summer and winter diesels at garage pumps depending on time of year but now its just one thin diesel mix all year round , and if you notice its almost as thin as kerosene now anyway . if using kerosene mix youll use slightly more fuel per mile than if using white diesel because its a bit thinner than diesel . 50/50 diesel/kero mix is ok to use but dont use solely kerosene on the road for long , it may not wreck youre injector pump but it will shorten its life somewhat due to lack of lubrication . for MOT purposes its a good idea to use kerosene , as emissions from a smokey old diesel engine will be lower if running on kerosene . >there is a lot of propaganda posted about using kerosene in diesel engines but >yes you can run diesels on kerosene heating oil , its white also ,no red dye at >present . I bet it has chemical markers in it though. >I bet it has chemical markers in it though. May do but doesn't need them, the CO2 to H2O ratio in the exhaust gives it away. The kerosene has a lower cetane number and generally burns less readily in a ci engine. AJH |
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