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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / October 2004

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Want to buy a welder of Ebay.......

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Mark Solesbury - 03 Oct 2004 10:19 GMT
I want to teach myself to weld basic stuff.

In the garage there is some steel plate and box section (nothing more than
5mm), and i thought id teach myself on that.

There will be nothing heavy, and ultimatly i just want to be able to patch
the rangie up, (floor pannels, chasis one day).

Question is, I know didly squat about welders.

Can someone point me in a good direction please?

Do they all need some form of gas or can you get pure lectric ones?

Whats the difference between MIG and TIG?

Thanks,

Mark
Steve Taylor - 03 Oct 2004 10:47 GMT
> Do they all need some form of gas or can you get pure lectric ones?

There are three basic types of electric welding in common use. In all
methods, an electric circuit if formed between the work and an electrod
which is handheld. The current that flows essentially determines the
thickness that can be welded.

MIG - Metal-Inert gas. A weld wire is fed into the joint automatically,
while an arc is struck on one end. The wire "burns up" at the same rate
it is being fed in. A blanket or shield gas is wafted over the weld site
to exclude oxygen. There are "gasless" Migs, where the wled wire
contains a flux core which de-oxidises the weld area. Mig is very easy
to use, but is not terribly controllable in amateur equipment. Amateur
Migs sets would probably top out at 4mm of mild steel, and only weld
things like aluminium with difficulty. Good method for RHS. Not good for
thick sections.

TIG - Tungsten-inert gas. The choice method for craft welding, TIG uses
a handheld torch with a sharpenened tungsten rod down the middle. Like
MIG, a shield of inert gas wafts from the torch to blanket the arc and
prevent oxidation. An arc is struck from the tungsten to the job which
then melts. A filler rod is then melted into the pool and welding
procedes along the joint. One of the best methods to weld thin section,
or aluminium. TIG sets can be very very sophisticated, and there are AC,
DC and combined sets. Small tig inverters can be used with MMA too.
Beautiful results, but needs great skill for good work.

MMA Metal-Metal arc. "Arc" welding. A metal rod encased in flux is used
in a handheld torch. The arc is struck from the rod to the job, the arc
melts a pool in the job, and drops of liquid metal fly off the tip.
2nd easiest method, works for thicker sections >4mm, needs no shield gas
or fancy torches. Can't be used on aluminium, VERY hard to use on thin
metal.

Get yourself a MIG for around 100 quid these days. I have an SIP MIG
which is pretty good. If you go this route you do need a gas bottle,
which is a (lowish) annual rental. If you weld steel, get a gas called
Coogar rather than the cheaper (crap weld) carbon dioxide.

Steve
Austin Shackles - 03 Oct 2004 12:33 GMT
>TIG - Tungsten-inert gas. The choice method for craft welding, TIG uses
>a handheld torch with a sharpenened tungsten rod down the middle. Like
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>DC and combined sets. Small tig inverters can be used with MMA too.
>Beautiful results, but needs great skill for good work.

and great funds to buy a decent one.  mig useable for car body and LR
chassis style work is about a 130A "hobby" one, as a minimum, and a bit of
practice at getting the settings right.

In fact, something around 150-180A industrial secondhand is very good, but
only if you know enough about it to ensure that the cheap bargain is not
terminally feckt in some way that'll cost big money to fix.
Martin Edwards - 03 Oct 2004 23:07 GMT
Bear in mind that a welder is a little heavy.  Only bid on ebay if you're
close enough to collect it yourself.  I speak from bitter experience after
paying 30 quid postage on a guitar amp, which only weighed about 10th of
what a welder will!!
T i m - 03 Oct 2004 17:15 GMT
>Get yourself a MIG for around 100 quid these days. I have an SIP MIG
>which is pretty good. If you go this route you do need a gas bottle,
>which is a (lowish) annual rental. If you weld steel, get a gas called
>Coogar rather than the cheaper (crap weld) carbon dioxide.

Hi Steve,

I was trying to loose my 'rarely used but soon adds up' BOC
Argoshield' rental bottle (for use with my Lincoln SP-135) and was
thinking of getting one of the re-fillable Co2 bottles available from
car spares type places?

BOC say I can return the bottle and re-rent one when needed (min 1
month) but it would cost a fortune loosing all the unused gas each
time .. ;-(

FWIW I thought I might try one of the disposable Argon / Co2 (80/20)
canisters (I have one here with a mini reg) as it will probably cost
less in the long run (and I don't wan't to be without it even though
BOC are at the top of the road ..)?

Whaddyathink please ..?

T i m
Austin Shackles - 03 Oct 2004 18:33 GMT
>>Get yourself a MIG for around 100 quid these days. I have an SIP MIG
>>which is pretty good. If you go this route you do need a gas bottle,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>Whaddyathink please ..?

the disposable ones are OK if you almost-never use the thing.  I rent a
little diddy bottle (size PT10, IIRC) from air products.  I used to use the
disposable ones, but they're a pain in the proverbial, run out in no time if
you do any amount of welding.
T i m - 03 Oct 2004 19:43 GMT
>>Whaddyathink please ..?
>
>the disposable ones are OK if you almost-never use the thing.

Which is actually the case (if you looked over say a 1 year period) ..
then I would do something big like build some steel doors for my
garage or the next job, a sliding double gate for the side access ..
<sigh>

 I rent a
>little diddy bottle (size PT10, IIRC) from air products.

Any idea of the cost please ?

 I used to use the
>disposable ones, but they're a pain in the proverbial, run out in no time if
>you do any amount of welding.

Noted .. but cost nothing to keep (no rental) 'just-in-case' and are
very portable (and they do Argon / Co2 mix)?

But you would still steer clear of plain Co2 yes?

All the best ..

T i m
EMB - 03 Oct 2004 20:21 GMT
> Noted .. but cost nothing to keep (no rental) 'just-in-case' and are
> very portable (and they do Argon / Co2 mix)?
>
> But you would still steer clear of plain Co2 yes?

Plain CO2 gives less weld penetration and a larger bead of weld sitting
proud.  If you're using a "toy" MIG with only 130A of current you'll
have trouble getting a decent weld even in 3mm plate.

I'm going to stick my neck out as usual and say that you'll want at
least a 150A MIG to make a decent job of welding a Landrover chassis - I
weld 3mm at 140A and get full penetration on a butt join and use about
180A on a lap join for decent penetration.

As someone else has mentioned a used industrial MIG is probably a better
buy if someone who knows what they are doing can check it over for you.
 Among other things they are much easier to get parts for (torch
liners, swan necks when you break them, etc)

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EMB
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Austin Shackles - 03 Oct 2004 21:31 GMT
>I'm going to stick my neck out as usual and say that you'll want at
>least a 150A MIG to make a decent job of welding a Landrover chassis - I
>weld 3mm at 140A and get full penetration on a butt join and use about
>180A on a lap join for decent penetration.

but, as I pointed out recently, even when new the chassis ain't that
thick...  There was summat about CO2 being better on dirty/rusty stuff than
the mix, but I've found the COOGAR to be OK.

>liners, swan necks when you break them, etc)

ah, now I made a discovery about liners.  Being into bicycle engineering, we
have a big roll of fancy gear cable outer.  This is like a normal cable
outer but has a multi-wire slow-helix outer casing inside the plastic, and a
plastic liner inside that.  It's made and sold for indexing gear systems, as
it doesn't stretch/compress like a normal cable outer.  But, and this was
the interesting bit, it makes an absolutely ace liner for the mig. much
tougher than the crappy plastic one, and pretty much kink-proof as well.
made a world of difference.

Now, has anyone ever tried the wire for welding cast iron, and a) is it any
good and b) does it need special gas, and if so, what?

I've a broken bit on the lathe and ordinary mig weld didn't fix it (was
worth a try though).
Huw - 03 Oct 2004 21:46 GMT
.  Being into bicycle
> engineering,

I recently saw, from the road, a tandem in Dalton's window. Was it one
of yours?

Huw
Austin Shackles - 03 Oct 2004 22:48 GMT
>.  Being into bicycle
>> engineering,
>
>I recently saw, from the road, a tandem in Dalton's window. Was it one
>of yours?

not unless it was a 3-wheel one.  Mostly we make trikes, including tandem
trikes.
EMB - 03 Oct 2004 22:18 GMT
> ah, now I made a discovery about liners.  Being into bicycle engineering, we
> have a big roll of fancy gear cable outer.  This is like a normal cable
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> tougher than the crappy plastic one, and pretty much kink-proof as well.
> made a world of difference.

I use wire-wound liners all the time anyway - they sound just like what
you're talking about, but I'll bet your bicycle cable ones are cheaper.

> Now, has anyone ever tried the wire for welding cast iron, and a) is it any
> good and b) does it need special gas, and if so, what?

I've seen the results and I wasn't that impressed (either with the price
 of the wire or the results).  It was done with normal gas.  The
resulting weld was fairly porous looking and messy, I wouldn't go there
again.

> I've a broken bit on the lathe and ordinary mig weld didn't fix it (was
> worth a try though).

Heat it up with the gas and arc weld it with some nickel rods (ie
specialist cast iron ones).  Then pack it in dry sand (or better still
some proper insulating stuff) and leave it to cool slowly.  I've welded
all sorts of cast this way (brackets, heads, my big workshop vice) and
the results have generally been excellent.

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EMB
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sylva@despammed.com - 03 Oct 2004 22:32 GMT
>Heat it up with the gas and arc weld it with some nickel rods (ie
>specialist cast iron ones).  Then pack it in dry sand (or better still
>some proper insulating stuff) and leave it to cool slowly.  I've welded
>all sorts of cast this way (brackets, heads, my big workshop vice) and
>the results have generally been excellent.

Yes you need to heat the iron so any distortion takes place within the
plastic limit, the slow cooling is so the heat effected zone stays
annealed as it cools, I think there are still issues with the size of
crystals formed.

If you want to try just a bit I can sen you a couple of nickel rods,
they're marked truealloy 80 and I have used them cold on some broken
lower link arms, reinforced with mild steel as well as a cracked
gearbox casing. I am afraid the label has worn off so I no longer have
the analysis or recommended uses.

AJH
Austin Shackles - 03 Oct 2004 22:49 GMT
>>Heat it up with the gas and arc weld it with some nickel rods (ie
>>specialist cast iron ones).  Then pack it in dry sand (or better still
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>gearbox casing. I am afraid the label has worn off so I no longer have
>the analysis or recommended uses.

I might take it off and get the blacksmith to weld it.  He's more likely to
know how...
Steve Taylor - 03 Oct 2004 20:11 GMT
> FWIW I thought I might try one of the disposable Argon / Co2 (80/20)
> canisters (I have one here with a mini reg) as it will probably cost
> less in the long run (and I don't wan't to be without it even though
> BOC are at the top of the road ..)?
>
> Whaddyathink please ..?

It seems an expensive way of buying the gas. How much do you reckon to
go through in a year ?

Steve
T i m - 04 Oct 2004 08:51 GMT
>> FWIW I thought I might try one of the disposable Argon / Co2 (80/20)
>> canisters (I have one here with a mini reg) as it will probably cost
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>It seems an expensive way of buying the gas. How much do you reckon to
>go through in a year ?

Hi Steve,

That's the ultimate question .. Some years I haven't used it at all (a
couple of mates have intustrial MIG's setup all the time so it's
easier to use them <g>) and other years I have used it constantly on a
project (like removing an 8' square up-and-over garage door and
fabricating a steel frame, windows and a bi-fold and single (personal)
doors). I used the MIG on all the light stuff (1-2mm) and the stick
welder on the 100 x 100 x 10mm angle frame.

If I was going to do another 'project' involving a lot of welding I
would probably bite the bullet and rent an Argoshield bottle, it's
just that I wanted to reduce the bottle rental costs (I also have a
gas set) and just have something small / non rental to go with the MIG
(that works well). I just needed something for that 'emergency' job in
the evening, Sunday or when I want to take it somewhere (the advantage
of having a 'toy' MIG (If Lincoln stuff is toy?) set is that I can
*easily* sling it in the boot and that's another time a smaller bottle
comes in handy...?

All the best ..

T i m
Richard Savage - 04 Oct 2004 21:08 GMT
Mate and I have been looking at buying (ex-Ebay) a gas welding set.  In
conversations with BOC it seems (according to my mate) that if you rent
the bottles for a month or less there is either no charge or a really
tiny one by comparison with annual rental plus gas cost.  I haven't
interrogated him about this fully but does it sound plausible?

Richard
Nicknelsonleeds - 05 Oct 2004 06:29 GMT
>conversations with BOC it seems (according to my mate) that if you rent
>the bottles for a month or less there is either no charge or a really
>tiny one by comparison with annual rental plus gas cost.  I haven't
>interrogated him about this fully but does it sound plausible?

Not very.

I think the arrangement is that if you return the bottles
before the year is up, they will refund (proportionaltely)
any unused whole months on the rental.

There will still be the transaction charge and the cost of
the gas (whether it's been used up or not) to be paid, and
you have to pay the tears rental up front of course even if
you intend only to keep them a short while.

I may be wrong of course, BOC seem to change their
pricing/rental structure fairly regularly.

Nick
Austin Shackles - 05 Oct 2004 07:29 GMT
>>conversations with BOC it seems (according to my mate) that if you rent
>>the bottles for a month or less there is either no charge or a really
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>I may be wrong of course, BOC seem to change their
>pricing/rental structure fairly regularly.

find out if you have an airproducts branch anywhere near.  we have half-size
oxy and acetylene and a small coogar (similar to argoshield, I think) from
them.  Can't remember what the rental is though, but I expect we have
records somewhere.
Richard Savage - 05 Oct 2004 19:10 GMT
>find out if you have an airproducts branch anywhere near.  we have half-size
>oxy and acetylene and a small coogar (similar to argoshield, I think) from
>them.  Can't remember what the rental is though, but I expect we have
>records somewhere.
>  

Hi Austin,

BOC are at Crawley and AP somewhere within similar distance of here -
I'm in Sevenoaks.

Do you recommend AP over BOC?

Rgds Richard
Austin Shackles - 05 Oct 2004 21:11 GMT
>Hi Austin,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Rgds Richard

dunno really, not had exeprience of BOC.  ISTR Air products being less fussy
then BOC over bottle storage and so on.
sylva@despammed.com - 05 Oct 2004 21:26 GMT
>Do you recommend AP over BOC?

I use AP because they have outlet at my local calor gas dealer.

http://www.airproducts.co.uk/cylindergases/locator.htm

The smallest bottles (pt10)cost GBP26 to fill, GBP8/month to rent (but
they seem to mess me about on this) and GBP 8 for each time you
refill. I found it cheaper to pay a 5 year up front rental on bottles
I use regularly but I just draw a coogar cylinder as I need it and do
all my mig work within a month.

I had little success with the flux cored wire but intend to try again
with a different brand.

The disposable bottles last about 2m of weld so are no good for
fabrication.

I now have a CO2 fire extinguisher, which I must get refilled, to try
out but coogar makes a tidier weld.

AJH
EMB - 06 Oct 2004 05:57 GMT
> I had little success with the flux cored wire but intend to try again
> with a different brand.

IME gasless wire (which I assume you mean - flux cored is a totally
different animal) leaves a pretty ugly weld even when everything is
spotless.  For the cost of it and the crap results it's not worth
bothering with.

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EMB
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sylva@despammed.com - 06 Oct 2004 21:34 GMT
>> I had little success with the flux cored wire but intend to try again
>> with a different brand.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>spotless.  For the cost of it and the crap results it's not worth
>bothering with.

What's the difference? I used a 0.9mm wire, swapped polarity as
indicated on welder. It was flux cored and I used no gas. I am told
there is a wild variance of results between different flux cored
wires, I had bad results, no penetration and no flow, more like bird
crap than a weld.

AJH
EMB - 06 Oct 2004 22:13 GMT
> What's the difference? I used a 0.9mm wire, swapped polarity as
> indicated on welder. It was flux cored and I used no gas. I am told
> there is a wild variance of results between different flux cored
> wires, I had bad results, no penetration and no flow, more like bird
> crap than a weld.

"Gasless wire" generally means a flux cored wire designed for no-gas
use.  "Flux cored wire" generally refers to a wire with a flux core
designed for use with a shielding gas in heavy welding applications
(250A or more welding current).
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EMB
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Richard Savage - 06 Oct 2004 20:33 GMT
>I use AP because they have outlet at my local calor gas dealer.
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>  

I'll have a close look at AP.  I have used gasless wire in my shared
Migmate 130 with structurally sound results when both bottles of bar gas
emptied and the owner of the Mig couldn't get them refilled quickly enough.

Ta  Richard
Huw - 03 Oct 2004 20:12 GMT
> Get yourself a MIG for around 100 quid these days. I have an SIP MIG
> which is pretty good. If you go this route you do need a gas bottle,
> which is a (lowish) annual rental. If you weld steel, get a gas called
> Coogar rather than the cheaper (crap weld) carbon dioxide.

If you don't weld on at least a weekly basis, doesn't the wire
corrode, which is a PITA?

Huw
EMB - 03 Oct 2004 20:40 GMT
> If you don't weld on at least a weekly basis, doesn't the wire
> corrode, which is a PITA?

When you finish using it, take it out of the welder, seal it in a
plastic bag and hide it in the hot water cupboard.  Also buy decent
quality MIG wire - it tends to have a thicker coating that resists
corrosion better than the really cheap stuff.

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Austin Shackles - 03 Oct 2004 21:33 GMT
>> If you don't weld on at least a weekly basis, doesn't the wire
>> corrode, which is a PITA?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>quality MIG wire - it tends to have a thicker coating that resists
>corrosion better than the really cheap stuff.

and, although it costs much more per Kg, buy little reels not gert bigguns.
the big reel is no economy if you end up binning 90% of it 'cos the sod's
gone rusty.
M0bcg - 06 Oct 2004 18:46 GMT
if youre welding up to 5mm plate youll need a 150amp mig welder .

this is about as big as you can run on 16amp mains .
if you have a 32amp socket you can use then a 200amp mig will work nicely .

i doubt though that youll require any more than a 150amp welder for almost all
you want to do .

gas , there are 2 types youll use for steel welding , firstly  and cheapest is
CO2  carbon dioxide .

this is obtainable in refillable bottles from welding supplies outlets and cost
is £30 for the first full bottle and then about £9 per refill exchange of
bottle .
this is SEALEY make .

there is now also a small cylinder available , argon+co2 mix , this is around
£30 bottle rental for 3 years and around £10 for each  refill, but these
cylinders hold 10x the gas the sealey bottles do .

co2 will suffice for the majority of welds , some say it cools faster and dont
like it but i doubt youll notice the difference between the 2 gases on offer .

as for wire youll use either 0.6mm or 0.8mm PLW [precision layer wound ] in 1kg
or 5kg reels .

0.6mm is used for welding thin plate , ie on car body repairs, but 0.8mm is a
good combination between thin and thicker plate ability .
you can weld thicker plate with 0.6mm but it will need to have wirefeed speed
high .

0.8mm will also not tend to stick or clog up in the liner in the  torch  and
make a birdsnest on the feedrollers .

for just thin plate welding you can use a 100-130amp mig ok.

one word of advice , if you buy a 150amp mig , then try to get one which uses a
euro adapter for the welding torch and use a binzel or parweld MB15  torch in
it .
you can also use an MB25 torch , these i buy for £30 .

spares are cheap for these torches , i pay 20p per welding tip , but i buy  in
large numbers to obtain this price .

as for gas regulator youll need a "single stage dual gauge " type .

hope thats of help to you .
Austin Shackles - 06 Oct 2004 19:49 GMT
>co2 will suffice for the majority of welds , some say it cools faster and dont
>like it but i doubt youll notice the difference between the 2 gases on offer .

I found the 150 "hobby" Clarke I have here welds *much* better using COOGAR
(argon/CO2 and possibly oxygen - I can check if necessary), which is Air
Product's idea of mig gas mixture, than with plain CO2.  On the same power
setting I can run the wire feed getting on for twice as fast and get much
nicer welds with more penetration.

the welder itself is pretty crap, took a good deal of fiddlin' to make it
even approach a reliable wire feed and it still balks at anything resembling
rust on the wire... I've reverted to little reels, the 5Kg ones rust too
quickly (or I don't use it enough, I guess) to be worth the saving in cost.

Bottle rental on Air products seems to be 19p per day, according to the
latest invoice.  They've gone over to daily calculation - rentla appears to
be identical for the PT10 mig gas bottle and an MD30 Oxygen.  Acetylene ones
are 24p per day.  Not sure if "big" bottles are the same, nor if all rental
charges are the same either - mebbe if you rent more of 'em then you get
cheaper rental, I dunno.

They also charge a handling charge of about 9 quid to change the bottles.
 
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