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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / October 2004Centrifugal oil filter
Greetings all I have just had a question from a mate with a TD5 Disco II about the certrifugal oil filter and more specifically the maintenance thereof. The only thing I know is that it is meant to work in conjunction with a normal filter to help extend the service intervals. Does anyone out there have any other insight into these? Regards Stephen Don't know the intervals for a Discovery, but you can ask the dealer or find it in the maintenance manual. For a Defender are the service intervals: every 20.000 km replacement of the centrifugal filter every 60.000 km replacement of the oil filter Figures are for 'normal'use. I change the centrifugal filter every 15000 and the oil filter every 30000 km regards Fred Defender 130 > Greetings all > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Regards > Stephen > Greetings all > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Regards > Stephen Increasing service intervals is part of the plan, but the main thing is to remove impurities down to three microns from the fuel to allow far more accurate injectors - all part of the battle to meet emissions regulations. Richard  Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!! Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems > Increasing service intervals is part of the plan, but the main > thing is to remove impurities down to three microns from the > fuel to allow far more accurate injectors - all part of the > battle to meet emissions regulations. > > Richard I think you may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. The centrifugal filter is in the oil circuit not fuel. Someone else said that it needs replacing at certain intervals. AFAIK it only needs cleaning. Huw > I think you may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. The > centrifugal filter is in the oil circuit not fuel. > Someone else said that it needs replacing at certain intervals. AFAIK > it only needs cleaning. > > Huw The centrifugal filter is a replacement-only filter, no cleanable, and needs changing every 12,000 miles (20,000 km) according to the LR schedules. The 'standard' full-flow filter is then changed every 36,000 miles (). The centrifugal filter removes particles of between 3 and 15 microns in diameter (the normal filter catches everything above 15 microns), and only receives 10% of the oil flow from the pump, the other 90% passes through the full-flow filter and the oil cooler matrix. It works by using two jets of oil in the base of the filter cartridge to spin the centrifuge at up to 15,000 rpm. The inner surface of the rotor cartridge captures the particles as oil is thrown against the walls by the centrifugal force, and builds up a sludge. Martin -- 1988 90 Td5 NAS Replica www.web-rover.co.uk >> I think you may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. The >> centrifugal filter is in the oil circuit not fuel. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The centrifugal filter is a replacement-only filter, no cleanable, > and needs changing every 12,000 miles (20,000 km) according to the LR > schedules. The 'standard' full-flow filter is then changed every > 36,000 miles (). [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > rotor cartridge captures the particles as oil is thrown against the > walls by the centrifugal force, and builds up a sludge. Are you *absolutely* sure that anything other than the 'o' ring is replaced? I ask because although I have not serviced a TD5 centrifuge myself, I have serviced industrial centrifugal filters from the same manufacturer and the only service needed is the removal of sludge and dirt residue. There are no routinely replaceable filter media in the ones I have seen. If you have actually changed a media in a TD5, I would be greatful if you could post a description. I take an interest in such things for no good reason. Sad! Huw Thanks for the input. I shall pass the info onto said mate. Regards Stephen > Are you *absolutely* sure that anything other than the 'o' ring is > replaced? I ask because although I have not serviced a TD5 centrifuge [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Huw Yep, you have to change the centrifuge cartridge itself, it's part number ERR6299 and comes with the o-ring as well. I haven't got a photo of it on my website, but I've found one on disco2.com: http://www.disco2.com/tech/td5engine/#oilf The cartridge is the bit inside the alloy pot in the top photo in the Oil filter section. It's got 6 radial depressions in it, a hole through the middle through which the post it rotates about goes through, and a pair of nozzles underneath at an obtuse angle to the base and the oil escaping from these cause the filter to spin. Oooh I've just found a photo of it being disassembled (japanese site): http://homepage1.nifty.com/bhymd/110/maintenance/eg/td5filter.htm By the look of the sludge it works quite well! Martin Signature1988 90 Td5 NAS Replica www.web-rover.co.uk >> Are you *absolutely* sure that anything other than the 'o' ring is >> replaced? I ask because although I have not serviced a TD5 centrifuge [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Yep, you have to change the centrifuge cartridge itself, it's part > number ERR6299 and comes with the o-ring as well. Thanks for the links. ISTM though, that the part should be able to be cleaned. Are you sure that it has to be changed or is the LR dealer making a quick buck by selling new parts that are not needed? Huw > >> Are you *absolutely* sure that anything other than the 'o' ring is > >> replaced? I ask because although I have not serviced a TD5 [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Huw It *definately* should be replaced at the specified interval. Richard > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/04 Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!! Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems >>>> Are you *absolutely* sure that anything other than the 'o' ring is >>>> replaced? I ask because although I have not serviced a TD5 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>> If you have actually changed a media in a TD5, I would be greatful >>>> if you could post a description. I take an interest in such things >>>> for no good reason. Sad! >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> > It *definately* should be replaced at the specified interval. Being cynical and knowing that they can be made to be easily cleaned and reused long term, I have to conclude that this situation is just a profit opportunity for dealer and manufacturer. Huw >Being cynical and knowing that they can be made to be easily cleaned >and reused long term, I have to conclude that this situation is just a >profit opportunity for dealer and manufacturer. 'course, it might be that they can't trust the dealers to do a proper job of cleaning it... there are other aspects, mind. By replacing it, presuming it's not ridiculously expensive, you *know* it's clean and it takes, presumably, quite a short time. The process of cleaning it inevitably takes longer and may not be done correctly. Now if you're an enthusiast who does your own servicing, you'll not count the time involved, and certainly not at main dealer price rates. There are also health connotations, I expect - no doubt the sludge is hazardous waste, which in a main dealer environment would in theory have to be properly dealt with, though that's probably not a major consideration. I might draw an analogy with the filter screen unit from the bottom of a ZF 4-speed auto. The filter screen can, undoubtedly, be cleaned, but it's a lot of faffing around, since it doesn't come apart, and involves washing it with large amounts of more or less harmful solvent, and when done, you have no actual guarantee that it's as clean as a new one. For the enthusiast, it's worth playing with if he has the necessary solvent and time. in a dealer environment, the extra time and material used would very quickly outweigh the cost of a new screen (£25 retail, last time I got one). >>Being cynical and knowing that they can be made to be easily cleaned >>and reused long term, I have to conclude that this situation is just a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >theory have to be properly dealt with, though that's probably not a major >consideration. There's lots of Special Waste generated in car dealerships and they have to have proper means of disposal. This generally means a commercial waste company collects it on a milk-round basis and then ships it to a Special Waste Transfer Station. There's lots of paperwork with the Environment Agency to deal with as part of this process. I don't know for sure but I'd be surprised if any of the fluids from a car service/repair were anything but Special Waste. On July 16th the new Landfill Regs came into play and the cost of Special Waste disposal quadrupled overnight. That is, of itself, an argument to reuse filters rather than put them in the ground. It is also, BTW, a very good reason to spend a lot of money on a system for waste tracking to drive a waste reduction programme. www.bartec-systems.com/wastemanagement But I digress of course... :-) SignatureTim Hobbs '58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig" '77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt" '03 Volvo V70 My Landies? http://www.seriesii.co.uk Barcoding? http://www.bartec-systems.com Tony Luckwill web archive at http://www.luckwill.com > >>>> Are you *absolutely* sure that anything other than the 'o' ring > is [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Huw Well it's your engine........ ;-) Richard > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/04 Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!! Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems >>>>>> Are you *absolutely* sure that anything other than the 'o' ring >>>>>> is replaced? I ask because although I have not serviced a TD5 [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Richard Most of the ones I have actually worked with just come apart to be easily wiped clean with a paper towel. The residue varies from sludgy to near solid. It is not just used on engines, it is also used on transmissions to excellent effect. Huw >Most of the ones I have actually worked with just come apart to be >easily wiped clean with a paper towel. The residue varies from sludgy >to near solid. >It is not just used on engines, it is also used on transmissions to >excellent effect. If they use bypass oil (from the pressure limiter?) can they be retro fitted? AJH >> Most of the ones I have actually worked with just come apart to be >> easily wiped clean with a paper towel. The residue varies from sludgy >> to near solid. >> It is not just used on engines, it is also used on transmissions to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > AJH The ones I know of have all been factory fitted. If there is a version for remote mounting then I can see no reason why such a thing cannot be retrofitted. You may know that they have a disconcerting noise on shutdown, rather like a jet engine shutting down only quieter. Lovely things as far as efficiency and operating cost goes, unless they are the Land Rover version apparently. Huw >> If they use bypass oil (from the pressure limiter?) can they be >retro [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >things as far as efficiency and operating cost goes, unless they are >the Land Rover version apparently. there was a site about bypass oil filtering, some time ago. I don't think it used s centrifugal one though, just a high-efficiency filter. Still gives you the advantages from the point of view of engine wear and longevity >>> If they use bypass oil (from the pressure limiter?) can they be >> retro [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > filter. Still gives you the advantages from the point of view of > engine wear and longevity It will have negligible effect on engine longevity. That is not the purpose of a bypass filter. It is to facilitate the safe use of very long drain intervals in conjunction with suitable oil. Huw >It will have negligible effect on engine longevity. I see where you are coming from, in effect in the absence of this equipment long drain intervals cannot be used as the oil and filter bung up with particulate? Once the oil is filtered to this high degree the limit on oil life being build up of chemicals which the oil can no longer neutralise and loss of lubricity from long chain molecules being broken up? I have extended the drain interval on my lpg powered V8 to 15K miles, the oil remains golden and from an old posting to an lpg list I hope the oil still remains in spec. No signs of problems yet, and I do drive it set very lean as this increased economy by ~5%. Mind I am very envious of the lpg mileage Martyn reported from his 4.6 grumble, which should be heavier than my 110 by some degree, I take it it is the gearing that makes use of the better characteristics of the 4.6. AJH >> It will have negligible effect on engine longevity. > > I see where you are coming from, in effect in the absence of this > equipment long drain intervals cannot be used as the oil and filter > bung up with particulate? Yes. The bypass filter actually filters much finer particles than most standard full flow ones. These finer particles do not cause wear until they saturate an oil to a large extent and overwhelm the oil. Take these out and the limit of the oil is greatly enhanced. Huw > I have extended the drain interval on my lpg powered V8 to 15K miles, > the oil remains golden and from an old posting to an lpg list I hope > the oil still remains in spec. No signs of problems yet, and I do > drive it set very lean as this increased economy by ~5%. LPG powered vehicles require *more* regular oil changes. The oil stays clean looking because there is significantly less carbon produced by the combustion of LPG however a relatively large amount of acidic byproducts are created. These acids stay in the oil and attack bearing surfaces within the engine. I would suggest a maximum 5K mile service interval for a LPG powered vehicle. SignatureEMB change two to the number to reply >> I have extended the drain interval on my lpg powered V8 to 15K miles, >> the oil remains golden and from an old posting to an lpg list I hope [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >within the engine. I would suggest a maximum 5K mile service interval >for a LPG powered vehicle. This was not the experience of the chap that ran a medium term test on this, having the oil regularly sampled and tested. The oil remained in spec such that the extended change interval could be used. If you can cite a reference to why lpg should produce more acidic oil contaminants than petrol I may delve around and see if I can find the site I referenced. I can see running lean will produce more acidic products (principally dissolved NOx) when on full power but do not think lpg differs from petrol much in this respect. AJH >I can see running lean will produce more acidic products (principally >dissolved NOx) when on full power but do not think lpg differs from >petrol much in this respect. and if it's properly set up, it shouldn't be running significantly lean anyway. I've noted that the oil stays clean, and more to the point, stays "feeling" right. I still change it anyway at 6K, same as for petrol - the vehicle does some miles on petrol, and in any case, the extra cost is minimal. For the same reason, I don't follow the modern practice of changing the filter every other oil change - the filters cost about a fiver, so why not put a new one on with the new oil - the one that's done 6K miles can't be all that clean. >>I can see running lean will produce more acidic products (principally >>dissolved NOx) when on full power but do not think lpg differs from >>petrol much in this respect. > >and if it's properly set up, it shouldn't be running significantly lean >anyway. I doubt mine is properly set up as it is a simple system, I have previously posted how the mixture probably leans out as the coolant gets hot. I am sure I run it lean though and it has been worth a few mpg at the cost of lousy pick up. >I've noted that the oil stays clean, and more to the point, stays "feeling" >right. I still change it anyway at 6K, same as for petrol - the vehicle [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >new one on with the new oil - the one that's done 6K miles can't be all that >clean. Fine but one of the reasons I could justify the lpg conversion over buying a diesel was that I could extend the oil change interval, to save pence per mile compared with a diesel. I imagine now, some 5 years on that this would not be the case as modern diesels have long change intervals, better performance and good economy. AJH >Fine but one of the reasons I could justify the lpg conversion over >buying a diesel was that I could extend the oil change interval, to >save pence per mile compared with a diesel. I'm under no illusions about it, I could run a diesel one for similar money. In fact, the main thing the V8 gives me that a diesel one wouldn't apart from slightly better performance (and mine ain't running lean - not at average 13 mpg) is a nice noise. >I imagine now, some 5 years on that this would not be the case as >modern diesels have long change intervals, better performance and good >economy. You can't make a convincing case for LPG being cheaper than diesel. You can however make a case for it costing about the same. Considering specifics, and comparing a 300 TDi disco with my 3.5 V8, to get the same performance as the V8 I'd have to up the boost slightly on the TDi and increase the fuelling accordingly, and maybe fit a bigger intercooler. There remains also the finding of most that the 3.9 engine gives similar economy and a bit more performance, or a bit more economy with the same performance. > If you can cite a reference to why lpg should produce more acidic oil > contaminants than petrol I may delve around and see if I can find the > site I referenced. Can't cite it online - and can't find the printed material at the moment, although the head of automotive engineering at the local trades school (who agrees with me) is going to look out a copy for me. AIUI part of the problem is the higher combustion temperatures of LPG help break down the additive package in the oil more quickly which reduces it's ability to neutralise the acids. SignatureEMB change two to the number to reply >> If you can cite a reference to why lpg should produce more acidic oil >> contaminants than petrol I may delve around and see if I can find the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >help break down the additive package in the oil more quickly which >reduces it's ability to neutralise the acids. OK. Have a look at this http://www.dotslashslash.com/LPG/EngineOilAnalysis.htm Which was put up from a guy on the lpg list in 2001, it seems to point to the opposite, plus commercial lpg is also lower sulphur than petrol (0.02% IIRC). From the earlier bits of this thread it just might be that oil in petrol engines is life limited more by particulate saturation than loss of detergent or lubricant properties. AJH does the filter also work to hold sulpur particals/ I use the Land Rover in north and west africa and i know the diesel overthere is not 'that good' Higher level of sulphur, so I change the oil every time I get back from a trip (driven ~10000 km per trip) Is the change necessay, what do you all think? regards Fred (Holland) > >>>>>> Are you *absolutely* sure that anything other than the 'o' ring > >>>>>> is replaced? I ask because although I have not serviced a TD5 [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/04 > does the filter also work to hold sulpur particals/ > I use the Land Rover in north and west africa and i know the diesel [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > regards > Fred (Holland) In general terms, if fuel sulphur levels are above 0.5% then the oil should be changed twice as often as listed in the normal service schedule. Huw "> Are you *absolutely* sure that anything other than the 'o' ring is > replaced? I ask because although I have not serviced a TD5 centrifuge > myself, I have serviced industrial centrifugal filters from the same > manufacturer and the only service needed is the removal of sludge and > dirt residue. There are no routinely replaceable filter media in the > ones I have seen. You surely don't expect a dealer mecha... sorry, 'technician' to get his hands dirty cleaning something do you? Looking at the pics on the jap site, all that is needed is to clean the sludge out, there is, as you say, no actual filter media inside the cartridge. > > Increasing service intervals is part of the plan, but the main > > thing is to remove impurities down to three microns from the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I think you may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick. The > centrifugal filter is in the oil circuit not fuel. Indeed - two mails on the screen at the same time! Oops... > Someone else said that it needs replacing at certain intervals. AFAIK > it only needs cleaning. If I remember right one should be changed every 12,000, one every 60,000 - I can't just find teh appropriate book to say which is which! Richard > Huw > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/04 Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!! Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems >Greetings all > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Regards >Stephen I think about 10% of the oil circulating in the engine is bypassed through the rotor. The rotor has to be raplaced every 10000 km, the cartridge every 60000 km (on a Td5 Defender). You can work the miles out for yerself. Peter R. |
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