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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / October 2004recycled cooking oil as fuel
I was talking to a guy today who runs his van on oil from these guys http://www.bio-power.co.uk I'm going to look into is as a possible fuel for my 1984 110 (2.5 n/a diesel). Is anyone here running an older landy on this kind of stuff? or anyone know anything about it? Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)  Signature_________________________________________ www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk 1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D (3,000 rivets flying in close formation) _________________________________________ Have heard you smell like a Chippy going down the road :-)) > I was talking to a guy today who runs his van on oil from these guys > http://www.bio-power.co.uk > I'm going to look into is as a possible fuel for my 1984 110 (2.5 n/a > diesel). > Is anyone here running an older landy on this kind of stuff? > or anyone know anything about it? And, apparently, you *still* have to pay duty on the fuel ... although how C&E work out how much you've used I have no idea! "Yes, honestly officer. You see that one-litre milk container over there? Well that was how much chippy oil I used to do 12,000 miles last year". "But sir, that container has got milk in it, it says so on the label. And we saw you make tea with it". "No no nooooo, not *that* container, one very like it...." ;) Steve > Have heard you smell like a Chippy going down the road :-)) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Is anyone here running an older landy on this kind of stuff? > > or anyone know anything about it? i think the tax and duty is paid if you buy the biodiesel from one of the outlets in the uk who market it .. they sell one of the grades which is suitable for diesel engines which costs 73p per litre ,although this is really a bit on expensive side considering and i dont think many people would change to it at that price . would need to be 50p per litre to encourage use . . its sold in 45 gallon drums . be aware though that you cannot store this fuel for long because of bacteria buildup and fungus . it doesnt store the same as fossil fuels . much cheaper to try a 50/50 mix of 28second heating oil [kerosene] and white diesel . 28sec heating oil is 23p per litre on average , if you buy say 1000 litres at a time , ie 4 foot long by 2 foot wide by 4 foot high tank = 1100 litres . . > would need to be 50p per litre to encourage use . . I disagree - chats with my friends have all said they would pay more to use recycled and / or enviromentally friendly fuels. The wrong way to sell these things is through money saving, anyway your quoted price is 10p a litre less than Dino diesel. 45 Gallons for most people is 3-4 fillups at most - say 1 month so I wouldn't expect storage issues in that time. Rich > . > >> would need to be 50p per litre to encourage use . . > > I disagree - chats with my friends have all said they would pay more to use > recycled and / or enviromentally friendly fuels. I might be prepared to pay more, if I didn't know that the reason its so expensive is that the chancellor taxes it at 300% or whatever. Steve >> . >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I might be prepared to pay more, if I didn't know that the reason its so >expensive is that the chancellor taxes it at 300% or whatever. in fact, ISTR duty on dinodiesel is about 45ppl (plus vat, chiz.) while that on biodiesel is summat like 24ppl. ah, wrong again: http://ww2.hmce.gov.uk/business/othertaxes/roadfuels.htm so if your used chip-oil costs you nothing, you pay the government about 27ppl plus vat in duty. ooh, this one's interesting, too: http://ww2.hmce.gov.uk/business/othertaxes/historic-rates.htm >in fact, ISTR duty on dinodiesel is about 45ppl (plus vat, chiz.) while that >on biodiesel is summat like 24ppl. So, if we use old cooking fat (that was only going to waste) and turn it into fuel we have to pay a duty on it? What if we make our own wine / brew our own beer (other heavily taxed commodites?) send some money to customs and excise ..? All the best .. T i m >So, if we use old cooking fat (that was only going to waste) and turn >it into fuel we have to pay a duty on it? Yep. >What if we make our own wine / brew our own beer (other heavily taxed >commodites?) send some money to customs and excise ..? Only if you run a vehicle on it. >>So, if we use old cooking fat (that was only going to waste) and turn >>it into fuel we have to pay a duty on it? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Only if you run a vehicle on it. Ah, so, it would be ok to ferment cooking oil into alcohol and *drink it* then .. (that would trick C&E eh!)..? I wonder how much of the alcohol passes through us and it we could run out cars on *that* without paying duty! (Or do you think that would be taking the p***!) Nurse! T i m Waste oil should only be carried by a registered waste carrier, otherwise the Environment Agency (a.k.a. DEFRA) get cross. So in theory only registered waste disposal companies can run their cars and trucks on it, and only then if they raise a Section 62 72 hours in advance... Likewise, you can legally have a television delivered to your house. When you have finished with it, it becomes 'waste', and is suddenly hazardous. It is then, technically, not legal to put it in the post... It's a mad old world. SignatureTim Hobbs '58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig" '77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt" '03 Volvo V70 My Landies? http://www.seriesii.co.uk Barcoding? http://www.bartec-systems.com Tony Luckwill web archive at http://www.luckwill.com >Ah, so, it would be ok to ferment cooking oil into alcohol and *drink >it* then Yep. >(that would trick C&E eh!)..? Nope. >I wonder how much of the >alcohol passes through us and it we could run out cars on *that* >without paying duty! (Or do you think that would be taking the p***!) You can piss in your tank if you like. If your car runs ok on it you'll have to pay tax on it - along with going for a checkup with your doctor, obviously. As an aside, I have a very simple rule when it comes to H M C&E: "Don't f.ck with them, they have a very big dick." or is that 'stick', no, prolly not... >You can piss in your tank if you like. If your car runs ok on it >you'll have to pay tax on it - along with going for a checkup with >your doctor, obviously. :-) >As an aside, I have a very simple rule when it comes to H M C&E: >"Don't f.ck with them, they have a very big dick." >or is that 'stick', no, prolly not... in all seriousness, yer better off robbing the bank than defrauding HMC&E. The latter, in addition to getting you banged up, can also auction off yer possessions to recover the missing loot. AFAIK, the bank can't... >>You can piss in your tank if you like. If your car runs ok on it >>you'll have to pay tax on it - along with going for a checkup with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >The latter, in addition to getting you banged up, can also auction off yer >possessions to recover the missing loot. AFAIK, the bank can't... And they have greater 'break into your house and look around' powers than any other body, including the police. I did once make a very sarcastic comment to a customs officer at Dover (it was late, I had driven all the way from Munich in one go and didn't really need a search at the time) and got a look that said 'I'll let that one pass, next time it's the rubber gloves'. SignatureTim Hobbs '58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig" '77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt" '03 Volvo V70 My Landies? http://www.seriesii.co.uk Barcoding? http://www.bartec-systems.com Tony Luckwill web archive at http://www.luckwill.com Twas Thu, 21 Oct 2004 23:10:47 +0100 when Tim Hobbs <tim@101ambulance-urine.net> put finger to keyboard producing: >>>You can piss in your tank if you like. If your car runs ok on it >>>you'll have to pay tax on it - along with going for a checkup with [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >search at the time) and got a look that said 'I'll let that one pass, >next time it's the rubber gloves'. I live in a small fishing village here in cornwall. All manner of emergency vehicles are here often, police, ambulance, fire engines, coastguard and even the navy bomb disposal but I'll never forget the day I was in town when a HM C&E discovery rolled down the main street, the whole place went quiet, silent, shoppers stopped in the street, the seagulls made not a sound, it was eerie. Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.) Signature_________________________________________ www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk 1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D (3,000 rivets flying in close formation) _________________________________________ >I'll >never forget the day I was in town when a HM C&E discovery rolled down >the main street, the whole place went quiet, silent, shoppers stopped >in the street, the seagulls made not a sound, it was eerie. Why? Had they left the handbrake off? Twas Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:10:05 +0100 when Mother <"@ {m} @"@101fc.net> put finger to keyboard producing: >>I'll >>never forget the day I was in town when a HM C&E discovery rolled down >>the main street, the whole place went quiet, silent, shoppers stopped >>in the street, the seagulls made not a sound, it was eerie. > >Why? Had they left the handbrake off? No I think they'd left it on... Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.) Signature_________________________________________ www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk 1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D (3,000 rivets flying in close formation) _________________________________________ >And they have greater 'break into your house and look around' powers >than any other body, including the police. The only thing they cannot do it kill you. They have to call 5 in for that... >>You can piss in your tank if you like. If your car runs ok on it >>you'll have to pay tax on it - along with going for a checkup with >>your doctor, obviously. He just told me to drink less ;-( >:-) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The latter, in addition to getting you banged up, can also auction off yer >possessions to recover the missing loot. AFAIK, the bank can't... I have no intention of getting on the wrong side of HMC&E (I have trained a few and they were all very nice <g>). I *did* get a gallon of old chip oil from the local chippy with the intention of seeing how easy it would be to convert into useable fuel for the Rover but never got any further .. 1) I didn't get round to it .. 2) The Rover does ~55 mpg and has done 170k already so didn't want to risk it ;-( 3) I don't do enough miles for it to be an issue. All the best .. T i m >I have no intention of getting on the wrong side of HMC&E (I have >trained a few You're not "Madame Whiplash" in another group by any chance? >>I have no intention of getting on the wrong side of HMC&E (I have >>trained a few > >You're not "Madame Whiplash" in another group by any chance? Only weekends .. wanna make a booking? ;-) T i m >...//... > 2) The Rover does ~55 mpg and has done 170k already so didn't want to > risk it ;-( > T i m Gees, Tim...... *** 55mpg ***. What's your 'secret' ? ...... or is it 'delusion' ?? :)))) .... frodo. >>...//... >> 2) The Rover does ~55 mpg and has done 170k already so didn't want to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >.... frodo. I think you'll find it's a "rover" without the "land" bit. that kind might to 55 mpg downhill with the engine off. >The wrong way to sell these things is through money saving, I disagree. The best way to immediately sell the idea is to apporach people via their wallet. The environmental reasoning may be more valid, but is far less sexy than convincing people of a sound financial incentive. FWIW, I converted my vehicles to LPG solely on environemntal grounds initially. The financial benefit - although there and clear to see, is still a secondary benefit as far as I'm concerned. >>The wrong way to sell these things is through money saving, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > initially. The financial benefit - although there and clear to see, > is still a secondary benefit as far as I'm concerned. Just to stick in my ?0.02. If it was a couple of pence difference one way or the other then I'd go for the envirosafe option every time - fuel round here can differ by up to 4p per litre within 200 yards - typically from 85-89p per litre for Diesel at the moment. The fact that Biodiesel appears to cost around 10-12p per litre less than dinodiesel just now just makes the decision that much easier for me. If the biodiesel was 10-12p per litre more expensive than dinodiesel then I'd have to think seriously about using it, just purely because of the mileage I do - typically 4-5 tanks a month used so anything up to 3000 miles a month. If it's cost neutral or cheaper then it's a no brainer. If it's significantly more expensive then it becomes more difficult to justify using it at the moment. I'm waiting for my first lot of Biodiesel to see just how happily my cars will run on it. I've got a 200 Disco and a Rover 75 with what I *think* is a 2l BMW turbodiesel. I'll report on how well they run on the stuff I'm looking at (Biopower V100 - http://www.bio-power.co.uk/products.htm) If I were running a petrol fuelled car just now I couldn't easily justify an LPG kit - the initial cost is just too high and any reduction in cost benefit from running on LPG would be painful. Paul SignatureIf Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course Does it Matter if Nobody Minds? [nod and snip] >If I were running a petrol fuelled car just now I couldn't easily justify an >LPG kit - the initial cost is just too high and any reduction in cost >benefit from running on LPG would be painful. Well I've a combined 12L* of output. This tended to give me uncomfortable dreams of children developing asthma within a 10 mile radius of Poggle Wood. LPG, apart from being cleaner and cheaper, helps me sleep sound at night :-) * 4.6L V8, 3.9L V8 and 3.5L V8 - start them all up and the sound is pure classical music. > [nod and snip] > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > * 4.6L V8, 3.9L V8 and 3.5L V8 - start them all up and the sound is > pure classical music. I have around 4.5l of diesel output - 2 cars with less engine capacity than Grumble. I really have to balance these things. At the point where you have a car that you are planning on running for substantial amounts of time then LPG makes sense - from a financial point of view as well as from the PoV of minimising impact on the environment. The problem I have is that the longest I have ever kept a car so far is just over 3 years. I can't justify a £15-1800 upfront investment for a 3 year payback, especially on cars that typically cost in the £1-3000 range themselves. This is why I've decided to move over to diesel engined cars for the forseeable future - I can run them on somewhat friendlier fuels without a substantial upfront cost - maybe £50 for a heat exchanger at worst. I also get more efficient running even if I do end up using dinofuels at any point. I'd love to run V8 cars, but I can't justify the costs for economy/purchase price/maintenance - you can get any one of those at an affordable level - rarely two and almost never all three. I suspect that ethanol, methane and biodiesel in whatever form are going to be the fuels of the future for internal combustion engines, with biodiesel being apparently the easiest of the three to manufacture, store and handle. I'm planning on looking at manufacturing my own biodiesel, for own use if nothing else - I wouldn't want to try and manufacture ethanol (the legislation on portable stills isn't fun to deal with) and methane strikes me as something not very safe to use on an amateur basis - what would be a trivial leak with diesel would be a major Fuel Air Explosion with Methane. Ultimately, I suspect that personal vehicle usage is going to end up being severely curtailed over the next thirty or so years, and I have a horrible feeling that electrically powered public transport just isn't going to be there in time. In my little nightmare scenario we could quite easily end up with a situation never before seen - no problem communicating with people at the other end of the country, but almost impossible to go and see them. P. SignatureIf Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course Does it Matter if Nobody Minds? >The problem I have is that the longest I have ever kept a car so far is just >over 3 years. I can't justify a £15-1800 upfront investment for a 3 year >payback, especially on cars that typically cost in the £1-3000 range >themselves. The payback on a typical car is something in the region of 15-20K miles. If you do 15K per year, for example, and keep it for 3 years, you'll achieve savings in years 2 and 3. ASSUMING the price doesn't go up much WRT petrol. Costs for fuel are about the same as diesel, like for like, (e.g. 3.5 disco vs. TDi) with the proviso that the diesel doesn't quite have the power of the 3.5 unless you tune it up a bit, which will make it slightly less economical. you can add in that like-for-like, a V8 disco (say) in the 1-3K bracket costs quite a bit less than a TDi, in terms of vehicle per buck. So Mother" <"@ {m} @ was, like > Well I've a combined 12L* of output. This tended to give me > uncomfortable dreams of children developing asthma within a 10 mile [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > * 4.6L V8, 3.9L V8 and 3.5L V8 - start them all up and the sound is > pure classical music. Interesting way of measuring an obsession. I can only manage 10.35L (4.6 + 3.5 + 2.25), but I'm still working on it. Start all mine up and the loudest sound is of five-pound notes crackling in the flames. SignatureRich Series 2a RR 4.6 V8 trialler dog, wife, kids, whatever >So Mother" <"@ {m} @ was, like > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >3.5 + 2.25), but I'm still working on it. Start all mine up and the loudest >sound is of five-pound notes crackling in the flames. I can only rustle up 6.9 (3.5 + 2.8 + 0.6). unless I count mother's disco in with 'em which'd add another 2.5 >Interesting way of measuring an obsession. I didn't include the Disco 200tdi or S3 as they're going to be, erm, going... >>Interesting way of measuring an obsession. > > I didn't include the Disco 200tdi or S3 as they're going to be, erm, > going... To make way for what? Did you win the tender on that Vampire last month? P. SignatureIf Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course Does it Matter if Nobody Minds? >>>Interesting way of measuring an obsession. >> >>I didn't include the Disco 200tdi or S3 as they're going to be, erm, >>going... > > To make way for what? Did you win the tender on that Vampire last month? New keyboard ? Steve >> I didn't include the Disco 200tdi or S3 as they're going to be, erm, >> going... > >To make way for what? Neighbours to park? ;-) >Did you win the tender on that Vampire last month? No... Does anyone seriously believe I could have got away with buying that without Charlotte removing some of the more tender parts of my body? >>Did you win the tender on that Vampire last month? > > No... Does anyone seriously believe I could have got away with buying > that without Charlotte removing some of the more tender parts of my > body? Can we say "Acceptable Risk in Martyns Mind"? :@) P. SignatureIf Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course Does it Matter if Nobody Minds? > No... Does anyone seriously believe I could have got away with buying > that without Charlotte removing some of the more tender parts of my > body? Doesn't mean you didn't try.... just in case it went for a good price, I didn't see a denial that you bidded, maybe just relief at a failed bid :-) Rich >> No... Does anyone seriously believe I could have got away with buying >> that without Charlotte removing some of the more tender parts of my >> body? > >Doesn't mean you didn't try.... just in case it went for a good price, I >didn't see a denial that you bidded, maybe just relief at a failed bid :-) There are some things I cannot comment upon... > FWIW, I converted my vehicles to LPG solely on environemntal grounds > initially. The financial benefit - although there and clear to see, > is still a secondary benefit as far as I'm concerned. Environmental grounds... humm Emmisions yes, but its still a Dino fuel and therefore contributing to all the other ills and finite Its the best of a bad bunch really Rich >> FWIW, I converted my vehicles to LPG solely on environemntal grounds >> initially. The financial benefit - although there and clear to see, >> is still a secondary benefit as far as I'm concerned. > >Environmental grounds... humm There'd be little point paying a Grand to convert one of mine which does less than 1000 miles a year otherwise. >Emmisions yes, but its still a Dino fuel and therefore contributing to all >the other ills and finite > >Its the best of a bad bunch really ALL road fuel is going to have some negative environmental impact - as it the vehicle it's used in, as you say, best of a bad bunch. >> FWIW, I converted my vehicles to LPG solely on environemntal grounds >> initially. The financial benefit - although there and clear to see, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Its the best of a bad bunch really well, true. but genuine alternatives are a) difficult to get and b) not plentiful enough, probably by at least 2 orders of magnitude. and at least by using the gas fractions of the crude oil we improve on the previous state of affairs where they were burnt off by the refinery. Ultimately, presumably, the use of all petroleum gas products will equal the production level of the liquid fuels (probably, principally, diesel - I imagine that there's more diesel/fuel oil produced than lighter things like petrol. maybe by then there'll be more work on alternatives. However, the only real alternative is to stop travelling so much, and this is where the ever-increasing network connectivity should come in, by allowing the majority of work to be accomplished by moving information and not people. Yes but is it legal? If so I'm straight down the local - Cod, Chips and some 'go juice' please..... There's a local chap (Isle of Wight) and he claims not to have put a penny in his Discovery's fuel tank in the last two years, Mr Chip shop owner is more than happy to give him the shops old oil, I think he normally has to pay to get it disposed of. Lee > Have heard you smell like a Chippy going down the road :-)) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Is anyone here running an older landy on this kind of stuff? > > or anyone know anything about it? Twas Wed, 13 Oct 2004 18:49:15 +0000 (UTC) when "LEE ARGYLE" <elloello@btopenworld.com> put finger to keyboard producing: >Yes but is it legal? >If so I'm straight down the local - Cod, Chips and some 'go juice' [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Lee This place in plymouth process the stuff and you buy it from them in containers or via a pum straight into your tank, you pay them for it and they send the treasury their cut. I've sent an email and I'm going to look deeper into this. Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.) Signature_________________________________________ www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk 1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D (3,000 rivets flying in close formation) _________________________________________ Mark Hi, I am running both my Discovery 200Tdi vehicles with a mixture of 10% filtered olive oil we use for cooking french fries, aubergines and fish and 90% automotive diesel for more than a year and a half now. When used at up to this ratio apart from the obvious economy in monetary terms I also notice that the engine is running in a much smoother way (less noisy also and noticeably better accelerarion) Economy is also noticed on the miles per gallon figures and the strange thing is that it is more that it should be when you consider the reduced amount of diesel fuel and accomodate for the additional olive oil finding its way into the fuel tank. This leads me to be believe that the lubricating capabilities of the olive oil further decrease friction in the engine thus resulting in further fuel economy. I also notice some decrease in black smoke when accelerating (the 1993 model year Disco is tweaked to 1.0 bar wastegate opening pressure, has a large full frontal area Allard intercooler installed in 1996, a hybrid turbo from Torque Developments Engineering bought back in 1996 (the were the first ones to introduce a hybrid turbocharger for the 200Tdi) and a pretty much tweaked fuel pump (I have now forgoten by how much) Hope this helps. Take care Pantelis > I was talking to a guy today who runs his van on oil from these guys > http://www.bio-power.co.uk [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- > I was talking to a guy today who runs his van on oil from these guys > http://www.bio-power.co.uk [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Regards. > Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.) My dad used vegetable oil in his farm tractor . Was a International Harvester, 6 cyl. engine transformed by Elbett, see http://www.elsbett.com/wwwusa/engl/corporate.htm Was working very well at low cost as the farm was producing tons of sunflower. Use of vegetable oil on roads is legal in France, but unfortunatly you get so many administrative problems and have to pay so much taxes, it is not a good deal... Regards, Jean >Use of vegetable oil on roads is legal in France, but unfortunatly you get >so many administrative problems and have to pay so much taxes, it is not a >good deal... it is in this country too, but if you use it as road fuel you're supposed to pay duty and tax on it. not that anyone does, of course :-) Actually I think some do. There was an article in a mag about a year ago/ maybe this newsgroup where somebody had an arrangement with the local chippy's and took all their used oil ; filtered it, treated it and used it full time. To the extent that he had contacted Customs and legitimised it all. > >Use of vegetable oil on roads is legal in France, but unfortunatly you get > >so many administrative problems and have to pay so much taxes, it is not a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > not that anyone does, of course :-) > not that anyone does, of course :-) If you read the site then it indicates that this is fully legal road fuel they sell complete with duty paid I'll be trying it as soon as I can get it in the east midlands (must check to see if it'll cause problems with the vectra), driving Tiggurr and smelling chips - got to be good ! You have to look at why you want to use it - to lower cost or for environmental reasons, the former you can do if you get the oil free and use it as such even if you pay the duty I would actually be willing to pay more for environmentally good road fuels if it came down to it - I know that may sound strange but better than paying into this world order of oil wars The nice thing bout this setup by th look of it is that it takes power away from the nasty oil companies and back to local people. Thats got to be worth a few pennies of anyones money Have a look at www.veggievan.org - they produce a very good book on bio-diesel, oils and how to run vehicles on them Rich 101 300tdi Ambi 'Tiggurr' Please Don't Buy Coke - See www.cokewatch.org Twas Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:27:45 +0100 when "Rich Clafton" <rclafton at lineone.net> put finger to keyboard producing: >> not that anyone does, of course :-) > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Have a look at www.veggievan.org - they produce a very good book on >bio-diesel, oils and how to run vehicles on them Thanks for that link, I'll take a look. I like the idea of lower polution and spending more of my money locally, spending less money on fuel is attractive also. I'll keep you all posted if this comes to anything. Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.) Signature_________________________________________ www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk 1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D (3,000 rivets flying in close formation) _________________________________________ >If you read the site then it indicates that this is fully legal road fuel >they sell complete with duty paid ooops. I admit it, I didn't read it, I took it as one of the typical "cooking oil" threads. Mea culpa. > ooops. I admit it, I didn't read it, I took it as one of the typical > "cooking oil" threads. Mea culpa. You're forgiven this time :-) just so everyone knows, my land rover is on a 50/50 mix for a couple of weeks to see how it goes, then I'll probably go for pure biofuel. driven 30 miles on it so far, runs fine. Regards. Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.) Signature_________________________________________ www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk 1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D (3,000 rivets flying in close formation) _________________________________________ |
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