Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / October 2004
Aluminium corrosion ?
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Hirsty's - 18 Oct 2004 18:35 GMT I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! )
John H
--
" ..... it is the provenence of knowledge to speak, and it is the privelage of wisdom to listen"
Larry - 18 Oct 2004 21:14 GMT I guess it is the old electrolytic reaction of the steel frame and the aluminium, the door bottoms just rot.
I was angry when I discovered the last owner of my pride and joys solution to this, but now I realise that to reconstruct the bottom with fibreglass is not a bad idea.
 Signature Larry Series 3 rust and holes
> I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white > powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > " ..... it is the provenence of knowledge to speak, and it is the privelage > of wisdom to listen" Steve Taylor - 18 Oct 2004 21:51 GMT > I guess it is the old electrolytic reaction of the steel frame and the > aluminium, the door bottoms just rot. > > I was angry when I discovered the last owner of my pride and joys solution > to this, but now I realise that to reconstruct the bottom with fibreglass is > not a bad idea. What about a "sacrificial electrode" method ?
Steve
Hirsty's - 18 Oct 2004 22:40 GMT I teach the principal, but have'nt a clue how to apply it in practice. The idea is to set up an electrical current so as to cause the Zinc used to corrode first (being more reactive than steel/ iron). I have never had the courage to use it as I am not sure if it would work and to what extent the surrounding area of the zinc block would be affected. The real problem is that Aluminium is a very reactive metal and is only used because it has been tamed due to the layer of oxygen on it's surface that is resistant to further attack. Once breached the aluminium underneath reacts very quickly. what is needed is some method of halting the reaction and then re-sealing the breach, but how ?
> > I guess it is the old electrolytic reaction of the steel frame and the > > aluminium, the door bottoms just rot. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve Steve Taylor - 18 Oct 2004 22:54 GMT >Once breached the aluminium underneath reacts very quickly. Yes it does, but it should react with oxygen instanneously to form aluminium oxides again - so summat is keeping the channel open. It's road salt of course that keeps conditions sufficiently conductive that the film is broken down electrolytically.
No, I haven't tried the electrolytic method on a vehicle, but it works well enough on ships ( protects the propellers) and pipelines.
Like you say, its hard to see just how to implement it. I have just enquired in sci.engr.metallurgy.
Steve
EMB - 18 Oct 2004 23:08 GMT > Like you say, its hard to see just how to implement it. http://www.ruststop.co.nz
Their products are bound to be available in the UK as they say they were tested by a UK university.
 Signature EMB change two to the number to reply
Pittsburgh Pete - 21 Oct 2004 01:38 GMT > >Once breached the aluminium underneath reacts very quickly. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Steve Steve and other Land Rover fans and fanatics:
The last few days we have been having fun kicking around the idea of cathodic protection in another thread over at sci.engr.metallurgy.
The idea of automotive cathodic protection is a fatally flawed concept, since you don't have a good way to protect the surface unless you almost completely coat it (which is what is done with zinc on auto body steel panels). See specifically: http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Car/carCP.htm
which points out that you have a nearly impossible task to get the current to go everywhere you want it to, unless you keep your car buried in damp soil or dunked in salt water. You also could start at the more general Corrosion Doctors heading of http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Car/Car.htm for a longer discussion which will tell you that what you want to do is to
1. keep the drain holes clean 2. keep the little nicks you can see on the surface coated 3. coat the inner surfaces you can't see (if you know what you are doing!)
In fact, your aluminium probably is helping to sacrificially protect the steel but you wish it would not. If you coat with an inert barrier, then you had better coat the cathode (the steel) as well as the aluminium (the anode). Otherwise you may wind up with a small anode area and a large cathode area, which is not a good situation.
Texas Instruments spent a lot of money doing research on automotive cathodic protection years ago, and wrote up a technical paper saying that cathodic protection was not practical. If it had been, then they would gleefully have sold all the auto companies heaps of integrated circuit control systems and impressed current anodes to do it (and made even larger heaps of money).
Pittsburgh Pete ------------------------------ DISCLAIMER
We don't believe what we write, and neither should you. Information furnished to you is for topical (external) use only. This information may not be worth any more than either a groundhog turd, or what you paid for it (nothing). The author may not even have been either sane or sober when he wrote it down. Don't worry, be happy.
Steve Taylor - 21 Oct 2004 09:56 GMT Pete,
Thanks very much for all your contributions to this thread. Interesting to see helpful inter-group traffic !
Steve
JD - 19 Oct 2004 05:12 GMT > I teach the principal, but have'nt a clue how to apply it in practice. The > idea is to set up an electrical current so as to cause the Zinc used to [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >> Steve The first requirement for the sacrificial electrode method is to have the entire structure permanently immersed in an electrolyte. (It only works on ships and marine structures below the water line.) As I assume you have no plans for submarine operations, this counts it out for protecting the whole structure. As far as local protection goes, you already have a sacrificial anode - its the aluminium skin! To prevent it corroding sacrificially relative to the steel door frame, there are two solutions; ensure that there is no electrolyte (e.g.water) in contact with both the steel and the alloy, or ensure there is no electrical contact between the two metals. As both are difficult to achieve with complete reliability except during design and manufacture (not even then, really), you should probably do the best you can with both. And a good start here is the Penetrol suggested, or a similar product, which has very low surface tension on metal surfaces, and will penetrate the nooks and crannies that hold water, and then dries. As it is an insulator, it helps to insulate the metals, and the film will prevent the water from coming in contact with the metals.
Hope this helps JD
Richard Brookman - 19 Oct 2004 13:06 GMT > > I guess it is the old electrolytic reaction of the steel frame and the > > aluminium, the door bottoms just rot. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Steve Get a large zinc anode (available from any chandler's), attach to the chassis with a good electrical contact, and immerse the entire vehicle up to the waistline in salt water. Make sure the anode is submerged, and remember to replace it every year. Works on boats.
:-) Rich
Lee_D - 18 Oct 2004 22:25 GMT > I was angry when I discovered the last owner of my pride and joys > solution > to this, but now I realise that to reconstruct the bottom with fibreglass > is > not a bad idea. Is the ride really that bad he made a plastic buttock sheild?
Ah I get it... to keep out the damp!
;-)
Lee D
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Workshop photos from Landrover repairs & other such tinkerings. Home of Percy the Jag powered Landrover
Richard Brookman - 19 Oct 2004 13:08 GMT "Lee_D" <lee@lrproject.com> wrote
> Is the ride really that bad he made a plastic buttock sheild? > > Ah I get it... to keep out the damp! Or in.
frodo - 19 Oct 2004 00:12 GMT > I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white > powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will > slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! ) > > John H John,
Over many years I sought such an inhibitor. _Found_ it about ten years ago !! There's _nothing_ like it. It _works_ !! :)
Check out a product called "Penetrol" .
Best wishes,
... frodo
Andrew Renshaw - 19 Oct 2004 07:59 GMT Have you got a website for them as I can't find one.
Andrew
> In article <n9Tcd.196$1l6.176@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>, "Hirsty's" > <magnum.458@ntlworld.com> wrote: > >> I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white >> powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will >> slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! ) >> >> John H > > > John, > > Over many years I sought such an inhibitor. _Found_ it about ten years ago > !! There's _nothing_ like it. It _works_ !! :) > > Check out a product called "Penetrol" . > > Best wishes, > > ... frodo
frodo - 19 Oct 2004 11:03 GMT > Have you got a website for them as I can't find one. > > Andrew
> > Over many years I sought such an inhibitor. _Found_ it about ten years > ago > > !! There's _nothing_ like it. It _works_ !! :) > > > > Check out a product called "Penetrol" . G'day Andrew,
Just had a look in 'Google"... there're a swag of 'em there. Take your pick!
Note that 'Penetrol' is added to paint to 'make it stick' ...... And this it does admirably. I painted my old 4wd with paving paint 'enriched' with Penetrol and I reckon you'd have trouble _sandblasting_ it off :))) ... Even diesel spill around the filler has no effect!!!
But 'Penetrol' is _also used 'neat' on new metal surfaces as a _primer_, especially on marine metal surfaces. Maybe it's low surface tension enables some superficial intergranular penetration , but it will sure get into _every_ surface of metals and then dry as an almost unremovable skin. .... and this will act as an 'insulation' to prevent the electrolytic destruction of the aluminium that is the subject of this thread.
It can be bought in pressure pack spray but this is an expensive way to buy it. Here in Oz many paint stores sell it ( as the paint additive referred to). A 4lt tin costs around Oz$55. ( I bought one only a few weeks ago to spray in the inside of _my_ doors !!. The old stuff from a few years ago is still there but I like to keep 'topped up'... and _no_ rust.....e.g. My 27 year old HJ45 has never been garaged and the only signs of rust are those that ensued _before_ I 'found' Penetrol some ten years ago or so..! My '97 Defender has _no_ metal breakdown , anywhere... Penetrol since new!!)
.... frodo.
Austin Shackles - 19 Oct 2004 14:24 GMT > My 27 year old HJ45 has never been garaged and the only >signs of rust are those that ensued _before_ I 'found' Penetrol some ten >years ago or so..! My '97 Defender has _no_ metal breakdown , anywhere... >Penetrol since new!!) so d'you reckon it'll stop corrosion once it's well established?
Bob Hobden - 19 Oct 2004 16:01 GMT "frodo" wrote about "Penetrol"
>> Have you got a website for them as I can't find one. >> > Just had a look in 'Google"... there're a swag of 'em there. Take your > pick! Still can't find anything in the UK though, all either US or Oz.
 Signature Regards Bob In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London
Hirsty's - 19 Oct 2004 17:03 GMT likewise
> "frodo" wrote about "Penetrol" > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Bob > In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London frodo - 20 Oct 2004 08:05 GMT > "frodo" wrote about "Penetrol" > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Still can't find anything in the UK though, all either US or Oz.
>Hirsty wrote.. >likewise THEN....
>Pittsburgh Pete wrote:--
>By the way, I forgot to add that Flood's Penetrol is also called Owatrol Oil. >Geedon used to distribute it in the UK, but now it's coming via Igoe. http://www.wdiyc.org/flood.html
http://www.geedon.co.uk
http://igoe.ie/products/whenyoupaintormaintain.htm
>Pittsburgh Pete There ya go ! :)) ......Thanks for the info P.Pete.
I was going to drop into the local place where I buy it to find out some 'background' info in the light of the probs outlined above.... but you've covered it.
Sorry about the confusion Bob and Hirsty. It hadn't occurred to me that 'Penetrol' might have a 'name change' when sold in your part of the world !!
As well, there's a product sold down here in Oz called "Lanotec" ( made in QLD)..... it's based on 'lanolin' (from sheep's wool) . On accounts I've heard it _is_ fantastic for corrosion protection, but it's about _four_ times the price of 'Penetrol', so I've stuck with the Penetrol. And, as I've related, ( for me) Penetrol _works_, over a long period.---- I might add that I live just a short walk from coastal salt water which crumbles roof gutterings in just years !! ( Took all my guttering off years ago, a few little modifications for drainage and I got away from that one !!
:)) ) ... My trucks 'sit' in this environment, but Pen. seems to work well !!
Good luck with your stuff ( of whatever name in your part of the world !! ) .
.... frodo.
Bob Hobden - 20 Oct 2004 13:44 GMT "frodo" wrote .
> http://www.wdiyc.org/flood.html > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 'Penetrol' might have a 'name change' when sold in your part of the world > !! Thanks for mentioning it at a very fortuitous time, just about to start sorting out the 90's paintwork having check most of the oily bits. Now I can get some to sort out those doors and the painted steel bits that on the S111 are galvanised.
 Signature Thanks and regards Bob In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London
Austin Shackles - 19 Oct 2004 09:45 GMT >I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white >powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will >slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! ) take the door skin off the frame and re-attach it with some suitable (electrical) insulation in the joint.
Pittsburgh Pete - 19 Oct 2004 19:21 GMT > >I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white > >powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will > >slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! ) > > take the door skin off the frame and re-attach it with some suitable > (electrical) insulation in the joint. Insulating it may not stop the bimetallic corrosion. Have a look at the first paragraph in Section 4.0 of the bimetallic corrosion guide from the boffins over at NPL: http://www.npl.co.uk/ncs/docs/bimetallic.pdf
Corrosion control is not simple!
Pittsburgh Pete (usually found over at sci.engr.metallurgy) --------------------------
DISCLAIMERS
Note: It is understood that this material is intended for general information only and should not be used in relation to any specific application without independent examination and verification of its applicability and suitability by professionally qualified personnel. Those making use thereof or relying thereon assume all risk and liability arising from such use or reliance.
We don't believe what we write, and neither should you. Information furnished to you is for topical (external) use only. This information may not be worth any more than either a groundhog turd, or what you paid for it (nothing). The author may not even have been either sane or sober when he wrote it down. Don't worry, be happy.
Pittsburgh Pete - 20 Oct 2004 07:06 GMT > > >I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white > > >powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > paid for it (nothing). The author may not even have been either sane > or sober when he wrote it down. Don't worry, be happy. By the way, I forgot to add that Flood's Penetrol is also called Owatrol Oil. Geedon used to distribute it in the UK, but now it's coming via Igoe.
http://www.wdiyc.org/flood.html
http://www.geedon.co.uk
http://igoe.ie/products/whenyoupaintormaintain.htm
Pittsburgh Pete
the ickys - 20 Oct 2004 07:39 GMT Rivet checker plate over the top. Doesn't cure it but hides it nicely. Icky
>> > >I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white >> > >powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Pittsburgh Pete
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