> >> > Greetings all
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> job which would also appeal to those that have left the brand and
> potentially win them back.
The current Jap etc trend trucks are being sold to the life-style brigade,
who were buying Frontera's, Terrano's etc. They have no desire, or need,
for a Defender. LR's other models are all doing well in these sectors.
> > Also on that site is a statement (lost the link, buggerit) that states
> > that the new Defender will be buit on the Discovery III platform to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So do I and I can't see any reason why a Discovery based truck should not be
> a huge advance as a work truck.
I can - wrong engine philosphy, welded "semi-moncoque" (far less easy to
repair), body panels without the rather miraculous ability of Defender
and Series to be bashed without bending too much, crappy modern bumpers
that cant be used as work benches/tools/ladders, reduced departure/attack
angles, lower driving position, mud-free interior with loads of plastic
bits to break, etc etc.
> > Anyway, compared to Ford's other "Premier Group" marques, Land Rover
> > is doing rather well.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> that it has been faultless. Not only is it a superb luxury car but is
> peerless as a work vehicle.
Lend it to me for a week then - I'll do what I do with my Defender, and try
out a few tasks around customers farms. I won't however, pay the repair
bill (sticking a rear crosmember, with extensions, in the back is going
to be a few hundred to start with, stand on the bonnet to prune a
few trees, open gates with front bumper..... etc etc). You can't even
put a cup of tea on the wing!
Utterly inappropriate for my uses, and those of the majority of our
customers. I think we have a completly different view of what a work
vehicle is.
> If any new Defender can be built in several
> variants, has comfort and reliability while not sacrificing work potential
> over a long life, then it would be a certain winner as long as it was
> reasonably cost competitive.
But it wont - it'll be aimed at the "double-cab" life-style trendies and
Chelsea Tractor brigade - the rest of the LR range has left its roots
well and truly behind, so there's no reason to suppose any new Defender
will buck this trend.
> Huw
Richard

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Huw - 31 Oct 2005 10:41 GMT
>> What it doesn't tell you is the market share compared to the Japanese
>> branded pick-up trucks which have been gaining volume at an outstanding
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> who were buying Frontera's, Terrano's etc. They have no desire, or need,
> for a Defender. LR's other models are all doing well in these sectors.
Some go to that market of course, but around here that is a minor market and
most go to farmers, builders, engineers, and public utilities; the same
customers who should be buying LR products.
What is wrong with LR also gaining further customers from the 'life-style'
brigade anyhow? They already have a big market, in fact a leading position
in that sector yet they effectively let others have a major slice without a
fight.
>> > Also on that site is a statement (lost the link, buggerit) that states
>> > that the new Defender will be buit on the Discovery III platform to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I can - wrong engine philosphy,
Engines are dictated by emmission legistlation so there will be no return to
'simple' TDi200 type engines.
welded "semi-moncoque" (far less easy to
> repair),
I can't see why that should be more of an issue for LR than for the
opposition. If it is involved in a serious chassis-bending accident it will
invariably be an insurance claim.
body panels without the rather miraculous ability of Defender
> and Series to be bashed without bending too much,
You must be joking? My LR is made of thin alloy that dents if you sneeze on
it. It has so many dents on it that it can only ever get worse by having a
serious bending. I cannot see how that would be much different with a Disco
based Defender.
To illustrate this I have to say that my RR has a dented wing and door
already and I anticipate more in future. Oh, and it also has a scratched
front bumper where it drove into a low static machine and a crease in the
back bumper where it reversed into a heavy cattle crush.
I suspect what you are more worried about is bending something new. There
are more important things to worry about.
crappy modern bumpers
> that cant be used as work benches/tools/ladders, reduced departure/attack
> angles, lower driving position, mud-free interior with loads of plastic
> bits to break, etc etc.
The bumpers will not be likely to protrude as does the present vehicle. The
angles underneath are not known because it has not been built yet and anyhow
are not critical unless they are totally inadequate IYSWIM. I have lived 21
years with a 110 hi-cap with a tow hitch behind and any new vehicle is
likely to be better than that.
As for fragile plastics, well the present Defender has plenty of that,
including plastic seats that the dog puts its claws through and which cracks
and breaks up in short order. Hopefully the new one will have better
quality, roomier, more comfortable interiors with doors that have concealed
hinges that don't sag and seams that don't leak and stops that don't shear
off easily.
>> > Anyway, compared to Ford's other "Premier Group" marques, Land Rover
>> > is doing rather well.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> try
> out a few tasks around customers farms.
For my sins and among other things, I do farm myself. A proper working farm
with triple axle 16ft ifor williams boxes to carry over 200 cattle, long
fencing poles to carry, steep banks to traverse etc. I also have a Defender
110, a RR, a Trooper, a Terrano, and a Cruiser Amazon to compare with. I
have also run other Defenders, another couple of Range Rover classics, a
Disco, a Shogun, a Subaru, a Mitsu pick-up and others to compare with.
I won't however, pay the repair
> bill (sticking a rear crosmember, with extensions, in the back is going
> to be a few hundred to start with, stand on the bonnet to prune a
> few trees,
Although I have never done this with either Defender or RR, or anything else
come to think of it, I can see no reason why not. It is however a lazy man's
way of doing things and shows little respect for the machine. I have never
heard of this complaint from owners of 'Japanese' trucks either and I
seriously suspect that it has never occured to them that it is acceptable to
use the bonnet as a platform for themselves to work on.
open gates with front bumper..... etc etc). You can't even
> put a cup of tea on the wing!
Well you can with the Disco and RR, on the bonnet anyhow. Most gates around
here, between fields anyhow, seldom swing on hinges and if they do they
have latches or baler twine to hold them shut. Having said that, I do use
the front tyre of tractors in such a way occassionaly but every time I tried
with a LR the bumper missed an upright and the gate either hit the wing or
hooked onto the bumper, so it is not effective anyhow.
> Utterly inappropriate for my uses, and those of the majority of our
> customers. I think we have a completly different view of what a work
> vehicle is.
It seems so. You want a retro toy and I want something that works
efficiently and reliably while providing my drivers and myself with the
comfort and safety that they deserve. It would also be nice if fence posts
fitted properly in the back, which is why I run a hi-cap which regularly
carries two four foot round bales of silage in the back.
>> If any new Defender can be built in several
>> variants, has comfort and reliability while not sacrificing work
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> well and truly behind, so there's no reason to suppose any new Defender
> will buck this trend.
Any new Defender is pie in the sky. I seriously doubt whether it will be
replaced by anything more than a rebadged and slightly modified Ford pick-up
truck. That is if they wish to compete in the utility market at all.
Huw
AJH - 31 Oct 2005 10:57 GMT
>Engines are dictated by emmission legistlation so there will be no return to
>'simple' TDi200 type engines.
We saw this with carburetors being replaced by fuel injection. Are you
now saying that conventional diesel injection cannot meet emissions
regulations so electronic and common rail will be the only methods
used in future for diesels?
AJH
Austin Shackles - 31 Oct 2005 14:38 GMT
>>Engines are dictated by emmission legistlation so there will be no return to
>>'simple' TDi200 type engines.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>regulations so electronic and common rail will be the only methods
>used in future for diesels?
very likely. We're up to euro III with euro IV and V in the pipeline, now,
aren't we?
somewhere along the line (probably euro III) the conventional mechanical
diesel pump and spring-loaded injectors don't cope, so you go over to
electronic controls, unfortunately.

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Huw - 31 Oct 2005 17:33 GMT
>>Engines are dictated by emmission legistlation so there will be no return
>>to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> regulations so electronic and common rail will be the only methods
> used in future for diesels?
Yes. Even off-road engines now need to meet tier 111 in stages. There are
very few engines over 100hp that are now without electronic injector pumps
and over 160hp they will need to be multivalve common rail or similar by
next Spring.
Roadgoing type vehicles such as LR already have to meet stricter limits and
there are now very few engines indeed without electronic control and only
less than a handful without turbochargers.
Huw
Austin Shackles - 31 Oct 2005 11:33 GMT
>But it wont - it'll be aimed at the "double-cab" life-style trendies and
>Chelsea Tractor brigade - the rest of the LR range has left its roots
>well and truly behind, so there's no reason to suppose any new Defender
>will buck this trend.
Hellova lot of the trendy lifestyle doublecab pickups appearing round here,
often towing 3-axle sheep trailers. There *are* new LRs, but reltively few.
I daresay the double-cap trucks make a good towing vehicle and a good farm
truck, although personally I wouldn't fancy reversing a trailer with one, 's
bad enough with a 110 with improved lock (like mine was).
I don't see why they can't build a suitably-tough body onto the disco
platform, presuming they want to. What will go in that case is the SWB
version, which would be a shame. Of the new defnders I *do* see around
here, most are 90s - and I can't see them making a special shortened disco 3
platform just for a Ute. Mind, they might see a market for a sporty small
disco 3-based thing to replace the freeloader... but I understood that the
freeloadre replacement was going to be on a vovlo platform.
'course, we could all talk to Santana and suggest they resurrect the SWB
chassis. If I were in the market for a new 110, I'm reaosnably convinced
it'd be Santana not LR, these days - cheaper and a damned good looking
truck.
Perhaps Santana can get a licence from Ford to build 90s?

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AJH - 31 Oct 2005 10:57 GMT
>Hellova lot of the trendy lifestyle doublecab pickups appearing round here,
>often towing 3-axle sheep trailers.
Is this new? There was a tax break which meant buying one of these, as
long as payload was over 1 tonne, got you a family car and reclaim the
VAT.
AJH
Huw - 31 Oct 2005 17:43 GMT
>>Hellova lot of the trendy lifestyle doublecab pickups appearing round
>>here,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> long as payload was over 1 tonne, got you a family car and reclaim the
> VAT.
It is recent, since VAT was proven to be reclaimable one ton trucks
irrespective of doors and windows. The tax situation is being revised to be
less favourable before long though.
Why anyone would want one of these [or a 90 station wagon at all] if they
were not VAT registered and eligible to reclaim it is one of the great
mysteries of the 21st Century so far.
Just to clarify another point made, being that engines are going electronic,
there are in fact one or two legacy engines still available if you are very
quick, examples being the Ford and Mazda pick-up diesels and the Mitsu L200,
both of which are indirect injection, mechanical and not long for this
World. Even the TD5 electronic unit apparently will not meet EuroIV and will
be phased out within 12 months if not sooner.
Huw