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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / October 2005

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D90 pick up driving position

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gyrocat@hotmail.com - 29 Oct 2005 21:04 GMT
Greetings all

I test drove a  300tdi D90 1998 pick up today, my first time to drive a
Defender,

I really liked it and would like to buy it for  to use for work. I
cover a lot of miles.

I found the diving position quite cramped, can this be modified? the
pick up has three seats, it seems the middle seat is for a hobbit, as I
don't have any hobbit friends can this be removed to allow for bigger
seats?

Any advice is appreciated ?

Thank you
Gyro
Austin Shackles - 29 Oct 2005 21:09 GMT
>Greetings all
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>don't have any hobbit friends can this be removed to allow for bigger
>seats?

depends in what way you find it cramped.  I'm afraid LR seating position is
rather a case of you adapt to the vehicle...

by ditching the centre seat you can fit wider seats, but you need to choose
'em carefully so as not to compromise other things like legroom, kneeroom,
height from pedals and so on.
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Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
"For when the One Great Scorer comes to write against your name,
He marks - not that you won or lost - but how you played the game"
Grantland Rice (1880-1954).            my opinions are just that

EMB - 29 Oct 2005 21:32 GMT
> depends in what way you find it cramped.  I'm afraid LR seating position is
> rather a case of you adapt to the vehicle...
>
> by ditching the centre seat you can fit wider seats, but you need to choose
> 'em carefully so as not to compromise other things like legroom, kneeroom,
> height from pedals and so on.

And it's all a bit dependant on the size you are too - Austin's had to
do a bit more adapting than I have, so a seat that I find acceptable may
well be unsuitable for him.

That aside my ex boss (at 6'3" tall) finds a standard Defender
comfortable enough.

Signature

EMB

Austin Shackles - 29 Oct 2005 23:23 GMT
>> depends in what way you find it cramped.  I'm afraid LR seating position is
>> rather a case of you adapt to the vehicle...
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>That aside my ex boss (at 6'3" tall) finds a standard Defender
>comfortable enough.

Although interestingly, the SIII is better than the defender was as
standard, using standard seats.
Signature

Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
"Remember that to change your mind and follow him who sets you right
is to be none the less free than you were before."
Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), from Meditations, VIII.16

JD - 30 Oct 2005 01:08 GMT
>>> depends in what way you find it cramped.  I'm afraid LR seating position
>>> is rather a case of you adapt to the vehicle...
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Although interestingly, the SIII is better than the defender was as
> standard, using standard seats.

Mainly because the doors are a lot thinner!
JD
Austin Shackles - 30 Oct 2005 09:30 GMT
>>>> depends in what way you find it cramped.  I'm afraid LR seating position
>>>> is rather a case of you adapt to the vehicle...
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Mainly because the doors are a lot thinner!

Well, compares to the latest offerings, yes.  But the early 110 doors are
much like series ones.  I was thinking mostly of the seat angles and so on.
Signature

Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
"'Tis a mad world, my masters"  John Taylor (1580-1633) Western Voyage, 1

Hirsty's - 29 Oct 2005 22:15 GMT
Got a 110   am 6' 2" and 16 stone never had a comfort problem.

> Greetings all
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Thank you
> Gyro
Neil Cummins - 30 Oct 2005 21:17 GMT
> Got a 110   am 6' 2" and 16 stone never had a comfort problem.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>I have (relatively) short legs and a long back.  Have driven from Cornwall
>to Sunderland, no problem.

Regards

Neil
gyrocat@hotmail.com - 31 Oct 2005 09:33 GMT
Thanks for the input guys,
I will probably go for the pick-up, just for the upgade-ability of it.
Might just get a transit for work!
McBad - 29 Oct 2005 22:15 GMT
> Greetings all
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Thank you
> Gyro

I had a similar problem when I bought my tdi.

I fitted a pair of extension seat rails (see
http://www.mudstuff.co.uk/MUD_Seat_Rails.html  ) and this solved my problems
by allowing the drivers seat to go back that extra couple of inches.  It
also improved the view of the road noticeably through being an inch higher,
which surprised me.

There are ways of taking out the bulkhead behind the seats but this starts
to be major modification, although it will let the seat recline further.
See for example http://www.mudstuff.co.uk/Bulkhead_Removal_Bar.html or look
under the accessories page on http://www.evansuk.ltd.uk .

Beyond that I've taken out the centre seat which gives a bit more space.
This was partly because I was planning to put in a centre cubby (which I've
not got round to yet) and partly because in fitting the seat rails I had to
remove the mounting for the seat belt for the centre seat.  It was easier to
remove the seat for the MOT than refit the seat belt!

Hope this helps,

M.
Andy Fox - 30 Oct 2005 12:17 GMT
> Greetings all
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Thank you
> Gyro

My mate is over 6ft tall and finds his 90 pickup cramped because the seat
travel is limited by the bulkhead behind it. When he drives my 110 CSW the
seat goes right back and he's OK. You might be better off with a 90 station
wagon and remove the rear seats for more load area.

Andy Fox
110 V8 CSW
Austin Shackles - 30 Oct 2005 16:23 GMT
>My mate is over 6ft tall and finds his 90 pickup cramped because the seat
>travel is limited by the bulkhead behind it. When he drives my 110 CSW the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Andy Fox
>110 V8 CSW

90SW still has a bulkhead, doesn't it?  Although it can be removed.
Signature

Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
"Remember that to change your mind and follow him who sets you right
is to be none the less free than you were before."
Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), from Meditations, VIII.16

Huw - 30 Oct 2005 16:58 GMT
> Greetings all
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Any advice is appreciated ?

There's very little you can do for and aft otherwise LR would have done it
long ago. What we need is a new model with a bigger cab. What we are going
to get is no change on the body front for quite a while. New sales will
continue to decline at the expense of Japanese brands.

Huw
beamendsltd - 30 Oct 2005 18:07 GMT
> > Greetings all
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Huw

Ahem......  a drop of 68 vehicles is hardly worth mentioning. Also,
if you read the article very carefully, that is only the UK market and
so ignores countries like Jordan who buy quite a lot for their army,
and the overseas plants in Turkey, Marocco, etc etc where there is
a mixture of CKD and assembly with varying amounts of local content,
and vehicles supplied to NGO's and Embassies/Consulates around the
world.

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=18040&make_id=625

Also on that site is a statement (lost the link, buggerit) that states
that the new Defender will be buit on the Discovery III platform to
arrive in 2008, in which case they can keep it as far as I'm conncerned
- I want a work vehicle not a poser truck!

Anyway, compared to Ford's other "Premier Group" marques, Land Rover
is doing rather well.

Richard
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www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk       sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
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Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

Huw - 30 Oct 2005 20:31 GMT
>> > Greetings all
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=18040&make_id=625

What it doesn't tell you is the market share compared to the Japanese
branded pick-up trucks which have been gaining volume at an outstanding
rate. There will always be a core of loyal customers for Defender who need
the towing ability which is not supplied by the competition. That is not to
say that many wouldn't welcome a better and more modern vehicle to do the
job which would also appeal to those that have left the brand and
potentially win them back.

> Also on that site is a statement (lost the link, buggerit) that states
> that the new Defender will be buit on the Discovery III platform to
> arrive in 2008, in which case they can keep it as far as I'm conncerned
> - I want a work vehicle not a poser truck!

So do I and I can't see any reason why a Discovery based truck should not be
a huge advance as a work truck.

> Anyway, compared to Ford's other "Premier Group" marques, Land Rover
> is doing rather well.

If you say so and good job too. They certainly have modern class leading
vehicles [apart from Defender] and deserve to do well with those products.
Their build quality and reliability issues seem to be under control and my
experience of the latest Range Rover over nearly twenty thousand miles is
that it has been faultless. Not only is it a superb luxury car but is
peerless as a work vehicle. If any new Defender can be built in several
variants, has comfort and reliability while not sacrificing work potential
over a long life, then it would be a certain winner as long as it was
reasonably cost competitive.

Huw
beamendsltd - 31 Oct 2005 09:39 GMT
> >> > Greetings all
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> job which would also appeal to those that have left the brand and
> potentially win them back.

The current Jap etc trend trucks are being sold to the life-style brigade,
who were buying Frontera's, Terrano's etc. They have no desire, or need,
for a Defender. LR's other models are all doing well in these sectors.

> > Also on that site is a statement (lost the link, buggerit) that states
> > that the new Defender will be buit on the Discovery III platform to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So do I and I can't see any reason why a Discovery based truck should not be
> a huge advance as a work truck.

I can - wrong engine philosphy, welded "semi-moncoque" (far less easy to
repair), body panels without the rather miraculous ability of Defender
and Series to be bashed without bending too much, crappy modern bumpers
that cant be used as work benches/tools/ladders, reduced departure/attack
angles, lower driving position, mud-free interior with loads of plastic
bits to break, etc etc.

> > Anyway, compared to Ford's other "Premier Group" marques, Land Rover
> > is doing rather well.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> that it has been faultless. Not only is it a superb luxury car but is
> peerless as a work vehicle.

Lend it to me for a week then - I'll do what I do with my Defender, and try
out a few tasks around customers farms. I won't however, pay the repair
bill (sticking a rear crosmember, with extensions, in the back is going
to be a few hundred to start with, stand on the bonnet to prune a
few trees, open gates with front bumper..... etc etc). You can't even
put a cup of tea on the wing!
Utterly inappropriate for my uses, and those of the majority of our
customers. I think we have a completly different view of what a work
vehicle is.

> If any new Defender can be built in several
> variants, has comfort and reliability while not sacrificing work potential
> over a long life, then it would be a certain winner as long as it was
> reasonably cost competitive.

But it wont - it'll be aimed at the "double-cab" life-style trendies and
Chelsea Tractor brigade - the rest of the LR range has left its roots
well and truly behind, so there's no reason to suppose any new Defender
will buck this trend.

> Huw

Richard

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Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

Huw - 31 Oct 2005 10:41 GMT
>> What it doesn't tell you is the market share compared to the Japanese
>> branded pick-up trucks which have been gaining volume at an outstanding
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> who were buying Frontera's, Terrano's etc. They have no desire, or need,
> for a Defender. LR's other models are all doing well in these sectors.

Some go to that market of course, but around here that is a minor market and
most go to farmers, builders, engineers, and public utilities; the same
customers who should be buying LR products.
What is wrong with LR also gaining further customers from the 'life-style'
brigade anyhow? They already have a big market, in fact a leading position
in that sector yet they effectively let others have a major slice without a
fight.

>> > Also on that site is a statement (lost the link, buggerit) that states
>> > that the new Defender will be buit on the Discovery III platform to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I can - wrong engine philosphy,

Engines are dictated by emmission legistlation so there will be no return to
'simple' TDi200 type engines.

welded "semi-moncoque" (far less easy to
> repair),

I can't see why that should be more of an issue for LR than for the
opposition. If it is involved in a serious chassis-bending accident it will
invariably be an insurance claim.

body panels without the rather miraculous ability of Defender
> and Series to be bashed without bending too much,

You must be joking? My LR is made of thin alloy that dents if you sneeze on
it. It has so many dents on it that it can only ever get worse by having a
serious bending. I cannot see how that would be much different with a Disco
based Defender.
To illustrate this I have to say that my RR has a dented wing and door
already and I anticipate more in future. Oh, and it also has a scratched
front bumper where it drove into a low static machine and a crease in the
back bumper where it reversed into a heavy cattle crush.
I suspect what you are more worried about is bending something new. There
are more important things to worry about.

crappy modern bumpers
> that cant be used as work benches/tools/ladders, reduced departure/attack
> angles, lower driving position, mud-free interior with loads of plastic
> bits to break, etc etc.

The bumpers will not be likely to protrude as does the present vehicle. The
angles underneath are not known because it has not been built yet and anyhow
are not critical unless they are totally inadequate IYSWIM. I have lived 21
years with a 110 hi-cap with a tow hitch behind and any new vehicle is
likely to be better than that.
As for fragile plastics, well the present Defender has plenty of that,
including plastic seats that the dog puts its claws through and which cracks
and breaks up in short order. Hopefully the new one will have better
quality, roomier, more comfortable interiors with doors that have concealed
hinges that don't sag and seams that don't leak and stops that don't shear
off easily.

>> > Anyway, compared to Ford's other "Premier Group" marques, Land Rover
>> > is doing rather well.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> try
> out a few tasks around customers farms.

For my sins and among other things, I do farm myself. A proper working farm
with triple axle 16ft ifor williams boxes to carry over 200 cattle, long
fencing poles to carry, steep banks to traverse etc. I also have a Defender
110, a RR, a Trooper, a Terrano, and a Cruiser Amazon to compare with. I
have also run other Defenders, another couple of Range Rover classics, a
Disco, a Shogun, a Subaru, a Mitsu pick-up and others to compare with.

I won't however, pay the repair
> bill (sticking a rear crosmember, with extensions, in the back is going
> to be a few hundred to start with, stand on the bonnet to prune a
> few trees,

Although I have never done this with either Defender or RR, or anything else
come to think of it, I can see no reason why not. It is however a lazy man's
way of doing things and shows little respect for the machine. I have never
heard of this complaint from owners of 'Japanese' trucks either and I
seriously suspect that it has never occured to them that it is acceptable to
use the bonnet as a platform for themselves to work on.

open gates with front bumper..... etc etc). You can't even
> put a cup of tea on the wing!

Well you can with the Disco and RR, on the bonnet anyhow. Most gates around
here, between fields anyhow, seldom swing on hinges and if they do  they
have latches or baler twine to hold them shut. Having said that, I do use
the front tyre of tractors in such a way occassionaly but every time I tried
with a LR the bumper missed an upright and the gate either hit the wing or
hooked onto the bumper, so it is not effective anyhow.

> Utterly inappropriate for my uses, and those of the majority of our
> customers. I think we have a completly different view of what a work
> vehicle is.

It seems so. You want a retro toy and I want something that works
efficiently and reliably while providing my drivers and myself with the
comfort and safety that they deserve. It would also be nice if fence posts
fitted properly in the back, which is why I run a hi-cap which regularly
carries two four foot round bales of silage in the back.

>> If any new Defender can be built in several
>> variants, has comfort and reliability while not sacrificing work
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> well and truly behind, so there's no reason to suppose any new Defender
> will buck this trend.

Any new Defender is pie in the sky. I seriously doubt whether it will be
replaced by anything more than a rebadged and slightly modified Ford pick-up
truck. That is if they wish to compete in the utility market at all.

Huw
AJH - 31 Oct 2005 10:57 GMT
>Engines are dictated by emmission legistlation so there will be no return to
>'simple' TDi200 type engines.

We saw this with carburetors being replaced by fuel injection. Are you
now saying that conventional diesel injection cannot meet emissions
regulations so electronic and common rail will be the only methods
used in future for diesels?

AJH
Austin Shackles - 31 Oct 2005 14:38 GMT
>>Engines are dictated by emmission legistlation so there will be no return to
>>'simple' TDi200 type engines.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>regulations so electronic and common rail will be the only methods
>used in future for diesels?

very likely.  We're up to euro III with euro IV and V in the pipeline, now,
aren't we?

somewhere along the line (probably euro III) the conventional mechanical
diesel pump and spring-loaded injectors don't cope, so you go over to
electronic controls, unfortunately.
Signature

Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
Confidence: Before important work meetings, boost your confidence by
reading a few pages from "The Tibetan Book of the Dead"
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

Huw - 31 Oct 2005 17:33 GMT
>>Engines are dictated by emmission legistlation so there will be no return
>>to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> regulations so electronic and common rail will be the only methods
> used in future for diesels?

Yes. Even off-road engines now need to meet tier 111 in stages. There are
very few engines over 100hp that are now without electronic injector pumps
and over 160hp they will need to be multivalve common rail or similar by
next Spring.
Roadgoing type vehicles such as LR already have to meet stricter limits and
there are now very few engines indeed without electronic control and only
less than a handful without turbochargers.

Huw
Austin Shackles - 31 Oct 2005 11:33 GMT
>But it wont - it'll be aimed at the "double-cab" life-style trendies and
>Chelsea Tractor brigade - the rest of the LR range has left its roots
>well and truly behind, so there's no reason to suppose any new Defender
>will buck this trend.

Hellova lot of the trendy lifestyle doublecab pickups appearing round here,
often towing 3-axle sheep trailers.  There *are* new LRs, but reltively few.
I daresay the double-cap trucks make a good towing vehicle and a good farm
truck, although personally I wouldn't fancy reversing a trailer with one, 's
bad enough with a 110 with improved lock (like mine was).

I don't see why they can't build a suitably-tough body onto the disco
platform, presuming they want to.  What will go in that case is the SWB
version, which would be a shame.  Of the new defnders I *do* see around
here, most are 90s - and I can't see them making a special shortened disco 3
platform just for a Ute.  Mind, they might see a market for a sporty small
disco 3-based thing to replace the freeloader... but I understood that the
freeloadre replacement was going to be on a vovlo platform.

'course, we could all talk to Santana and suggest they resurrect the SWB
chassis.  If I were in the market for a new 110, I'm reaosnably convinced
it'd be Santana not LR, these days - cheaper and a damned good looking
truck.

Perhaps Santana can get a licence from Ford to build 90s?

Signature

Austin Shackles.  www.ddol-las.net  my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".

AJH - 31 Oct 2005 10:57 GMT
>Hellova lot of the trendy lifestyle doublecab pickups appearing round here,
>often towing 3-axle sheep trailers.

Is this new? There was a tax break which meant buying one of these, as
long as payload was over 1 tonne, got you a family car and reclaim the
VAT.

AJH
Huw - 31 Oct 2005 17:43 GMT
>>Hellova lot of the trendy lifestyle doublecab pickups appearing round
>>here,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> long as payload was over 1 tonne, got you a family car and reclaim the
> VAT.

It is recent, since VAT was proven to be reclaimable one ton trucks
irrespective of doors and windows. The tax situation is being revised to be
less favourable before long though.
Why anyone would want one of these [or a 90 station wagon at all] if they
were not VAT registered and eligible to reclaim it is one of the great
mysteries of the 21st Century so far.

Just to clarify another point made, being that engines are going electronic,
there are in fact one or two legacy engines still available if you are very
quick, examples being the Ford and Mazda pick-up diesels and the Mitsu L200,
both of which are indirect injection, mechanical and not long for this
World. Even the TD5 electronic unit apparently will not meet EuroIV and will
be phased out within 12 months if not sooner.

Huw
 
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