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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / January 2006300Tdi - Slow start in cold weather - New glow plugs needed?
My (1997 ES) 300Tdi Disco has always been a good starter but has been a bit slow in the recent cold weather. The engine turns on the starter but it can take up to a dozen turns before it starts. The battery is fine - I've checked it with a meter and don't hear any slowing down of the starter before the engine comes to life. I have heard that the 300Tdi doesn't tend to need its glow plugs unless the weather is cold, so is it likely that one, some or all of my plugs need replacing? Although I've had this LR for over three years, I grew up with petrol Series IIIs and still have a bit of trouble understanding diesels. For a start, I thought I'd just be able to unscrew the glow plugs and have a look at them (like I could with my spark plugs) but it seems to be a right to-do even to have a look. I have not been charged for glow plugs at any of my services, so I can only assume I've had the same ones for the last 60,000 miles. Perhaps I should just get them changed anyway; it's probably cheaper than getting them checked. Judith I would get the glow plugs changed. About £30 tops for them and maybe an hour at a garage to fit them - I recently changed mine in my 110 and it made a difference. Andy > My (1997 ES) 300Tdi Disco has always been a good starter but has been a > bit slow in the recent cold weather. The engine turns on the starter [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Judith > I would get the glow plugs changed. About £30 tops for them and maybe an > hour at a garage to fit them - I recently changed mine in my 110 and it made > a difference. > > Andy Diagnose first, spend money later - unless you are the Government spending our money. I thought I'd just be able to unscrew the glow plugs and have > a look at them (like I could with my spark plugs) but it seems to be a > right to-do even to have a look. You COULD look at them, but unless they are utterly knackered, you can't see anything. You need to pull 'em and connect them to the battery for a few seconds. You should see a good bright glow close to the tip of the plug, if you don't, then change them, its not worth changing single plugs for the cost. Don't know where you are, but Richard at Beamends in the UK does a set of plugs for 4 x 3.76 GBP ! Steve > My (1997 ES) 300Tdi Disco has always been a good starter but has been a > bit slow in the recent cold weather. The engine turns on the starter [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Judith Glow plugs are probably most likely. However, do you park onj a slope with your engine pointing up the slope? Mine at the moment takes about 10 seconds to start if I do this - park the other way round, it starts on the first turn. My mechanic here replaced the lift fuel pump the last time mine did this - he said the fuel was draining back into the tank overnight and had to be pumped back up again. He said it was a sign of the diaphragm failing. The fuel lift pump doesn't do much once the engine is running I believe. I'm sure there was a post on this newsgroup that said the injection pump could suck the fuel through once the engine was running. So you probably wouldn't notice any other symptoms. Cheers! Graham Carter My 98 2.5 Disco has been behaving (mis-behaving) like that over the past few weeks. I think I will try backing into the garden before I change the glow plugs. Happy New Year all Hugh >> I have not been charged for glow plugs at any of my services, so I can >> only assume I've had the same ones for the last 60,000 miles. Perhaps >> I should just get them changed anyway; it's probably cheaper than >> getting them checked. Glow plugs last until they fail. They're not, AFAIK, a service item. >> Judith > >Glow plugs are probably most likely. However, do you park onj a slope with >your engine pointing up the slope? Mine at the moment takes about 10 >seconds to start if I do this - park the other way round, it starts on the >first turn. surely this would apply in warmer weather too? if it's a recent symptom only in cold weather, I'd still go with glow plugs. It's quite possible to have an engine that starts fine without plugs, and then the temperature drops about 3 degrees and it doesn't. You can test 'em, as someone says: pull plug, connect fattish wire (a jump lead is good) to the top, connect other end of FW to battery +, grab plug with pliers and rest the metal casing on battery -. should take about 5 seconds to start glowing at the tip. You hold it with pliers 'cos it gets hot (if it's working) and be careful where you put it down afterwards. sender on the solar collector on our roof says -9.3 C tonight.  SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Blue: The sky is blue for a reason. Blue light is a source of strength and harmony in the cosmos. Create a blue light in your life by telephoning the police from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. >>> I have not been charged for glow plugs at any of my services, so I can >>> only assume I've had the same ones for the last 60,000 miles. Perhaps [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >seconds to start glowing at the tip. You hold it with pliers 'cos it gets >hot (if it's working) and be careful where you put it down afterwards. Doesn't the 300 Tdi have a relay which controls the glow plugs in some way? Signaturehugh Reply to address is valid at the time of posting > Doesn't the 300 Tdi have a relay which controls the glow plugs in some > way? All diesels will have a relay controlling the glow-plugs. the suck upwards of about 50 amps i believe, so you certainly wouldn't want all that current tearing through you ignition barrel. i was quoted $150 to replace the glow-plug relay on my old landcruiser. i said "bugger that", and bought a universal started solenoid and did the job for about $20 and about an hours work. Sam. > Doesn't the 300 Tdi have a relay which controls the glow plugs in some > way? Yes it does. Also has a temperature sensor. Plugs come on for a period of time depending on temperature, and then dashboard light goes off. Plugs stay on for about a further 10 seconds. If you listen carefully, you can hear the relay click (it's by the fuse box under the bonnet). Cheers! Graham. >>Glow plugs are probably most likely. However, do you park onj a slope with >>your engine pointing up the slope? Mine at the moment takes about 10 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >have an engine that starts fine without plugs, and then the temperature >drops about 3 degrees and it doesn't. Yes, that's how it seems. Above, say, 2 deg C - fine. Around 0 deg C - bit iffy. Below -2 deg C - cross fingers! It hasn't not started yet, but I need to do something about it soon as there's obviously something not right. Most people seem to think it's the plugs and I reckon a new set after (at least) 60,000 miles wouldn't be too much of an extravagance. Judith >>>Glow plugs are probably most likely. However, do you park onj a slope with >>>your engine pointing up the slope? Mine at the moment takes about 10 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >reckon a new set after (at least) 60,000 miles wouldn't be too much of >an extravagance. it's quite common for one or two plugs to fail. Even on the sort of engines that habitually use the glowplugs (and yes, the TDi shouldn't need 'em normally) they'll start from one or two plugs on a warm day, but a few degrees colder they won't start at all. it *could* be the plug controller. But check the plugs first, they're much cheaper to replace. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "The breezy call of incense-breathing Morn, The swallow twittering from the strawbuilt shed, The cock's shrill clarion, or the echoing horn, No more shall rouse them from their lowly bed." Thomas Gray, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard. > surely this would apply in warmer weather too? > sender on the solar collector on our roof says -9.3 C tonight. Here in Harare, Zimbabwe, temp is 23C, likely to rise to about 30 if the cloud clears. Yesterday, travelling back from South Africa, we had temps about 35C Just thought how glad I am not to be in English cold at the moment. Cheers! Graham > > surely this would apply in warmer weather too? > > sender on the solar collector on our roof says -9.3 C tonight. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Cheers! > Graham I have to say I'd rather have our very changeable weather - I don't like hot and I love wintery Christmas card morinings (not rain though!). Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!! Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay >> surely this would apply in warmer weather too? >> sender on the solar collector on our roof says -9.3 C tonight. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Just thought how glad I am not to be in English cold at the moment. git. what's the position with emigrating to ZA these days :-) not sure I fancy Zimbabwe unless the regime gets a bit of a makeover. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee" John Donne (1571? - 1631) Devotions, XVII > >Just thought how glad I am not to be in English cold at the moment. > > git. Fair comment!!! > what's the position with emigrating to ZA these days :-) > > not sure I fancy Zimbabwe unless the regime gets a bit of a makeover. Fairly tight unless you've got R500,000 to invest in a company, or a South Africa relation (parent/grandparent). You can also get in if you can get a job, which has been advertised to South Africans, and none were suitable. As for Zimbabwe, 1000% inflation takes getting used to. Our largest note is 20,000 dollars, and is worth about 15p. Only need two to get a beer mind!! But shopping for the two of us costs about $5million per week! Sun shines a lot though, and if it's too hot, just jump in the pool. Having said that, it's rained all day today!!! 26mm (which is actually quite light for Zimbabwe). Cheers!!! Graham Carter SignatureCarter Computer Services (Pvt) Ltd P.O. Box A1619 Avondale Harare Zimbabwe Tel: +263 4 300082 Cell: +263 91 329310 Fax: +263 918 329310 email:gcarter(at)mweb(dot)co(dot)zw >> >Just thought how glad I am not to be in English cold at the moment. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >20,000 dollars, and is worth about 15p. Only need two to get a beer mind!! >But shopping for the two of us costs about $5million per week! Blimey. I could fancy having a farm or something there, but from what I hear and read, there's not much point at the moment as the PTB over there are intent on a) booting out any whites they reckon they can do without and b) generally breaking the economy in a way that makes ours look positively blooming. I freely admit that the information I have may be biassed. >Sun shines a lot though, and if it's too hot, just jump in the pool. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Cheers!!! >Graham Carter SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802) ...and Graham Carter spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying... >> surely this would apply in warmer weather too? >> sender on the solar collector on our roof says -9.3 C tonight. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Cheers! > Graham You cruel, cruel man. Actually, I like a good cold snap in the winter. It kills off all the bugs and reminds you that seasons are theoretically meant to be different. The endless succession in the past few years of month after month of mild, dull, wet weather in "winter" makes me depressed. SignatureRich ============================== Disco 300 Tdi auto S2a 88" SW Tiggrr (V8 trialler) >...and Graham Carter spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >to be different. The endless succession in the past few years of month >after month of mild, dull, wet weather in "winter" makes me depressed. yes, but how many of you made the decision to re roof a buiding. Actually, I didn't make the decision, my neighbour had his re roofed in November, but because the roofs are all linked with continual joists and purlins, it caused mine to sag dangerously and begin to collapse, hence I didn't make the decision, but have to do it to keep my tools and parts dry...... Needless to say, builder refuses to acknowledge responsibilty. Bloody fly by night builders. Fortunately, aunts new hubby is a joiner on building sites, so has built a few roofs in the past, in 4 hours we had new joists, now i just have to finish felting, then re slate...... SignatureSimon Isaacs Peterborough 4x4 Club Newsletter Editor and Webmaster Green Lane Association (GLASS) Financial Director 101 Ambi, undergoing camper conversion www.simoni.co.uk 1976 S3 LWT, Fully restored, ready for sale! Make me an offer! Suzuki SJ410 (Wife's) 3" lift kit fitted, body shell now restored and mounted on chassis, waiting on a windscreen and MOT Series 3 88" Rolling chassis...what to do next 1993 200 TDi Discovery 1994 200 TDi Discovery body sheel, being bobbed and modded..... > ...and Graham Carter spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You cruel, cruel man. And mid 20's here, not a cloud in the sky, Xmas dinner was turkey sandwiches on the beach. I can feel a couple of days venturing offroad into the back country moving towards the top of the agenda - all I need is to find another like minded individual (the bloke I usually go with is freezing his bollocks of in Wales) and I'll be off. SignatureEMB >And mid 20's here, not a cloud in the sky, Xmas dinner was turkey >sandwiches on the beach. I can feel a couple of days venturing offroad >into the back country moving towards the top of the agenda - all I need >is to find another like minded individual (the bloke I usually go with >is freezing his bollocks of in Wales) and I'll be off. whereabouts? tell 'im to call in for a coffee... SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" Alphonse Karr (1808 - 1890) Les Guêpes, Jan 1849 >Glow plugs are probably most likely. However, do you park onj a slope with >your engine pointing up the slope? Mine at the moment takes about 10 >seconds to start if I do this - park the other way round, it starts on the >first turn. No, I park on a slope ..... but with my engine pointing DOWN the slope! Judith [slow starts] in a spirit of enquiry I went out and started the motors here. -11 C overnight, probably about -8 now. Disco took 2 goes of heater and several seconds of cranking - I suspect it'll be worth checking the plugs on that one, too. BTW - one classic symptom of partially-dead plug set is for it to fire initially on less than 4 cylinders. Minibus (Ford Di) took about 4 seconds of cranking. I'm not sure it even HAS glowplugs. Edward II (the series III) was a bit tricksy. I suspect that the choke doesn't actually enrich enough even at full choke for this temperature. A bit of pumping on the accelerator pedal to get more fuel into him eventually brought him to life, without recourse to the starting handle. Result! SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Too Busy: Your mind is like a motorway. Sometimes it can be jammed by too much traffic. Avoid the jams by never using your mind on a Bank Holiday weekend. from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. >My (1997 ES) 300Tdi Disco has always been a good starter but has been a >bit slow in the recent cold weather. The engine turns on the starter >but it can take up to a dozen turns before it starts. The battery is >fine - I've checked it with a meter and don't hear any slowing down of >the starter before the engine comes to life. Update: All 4 glow plugs are dead as a dodo. I've only had one of them out and it has big grey burnt bit on one side of the tip. I can't get my test light to light up when connected between the +ve battery terminal and the top of the glow plugs - so the plugs are apparently not earthing. Have tried a few shops but nobody seems to have any of the right type (and it's New Year's Eve afternoon so most places are shutting now). No hurry though, as even at -3.5 deg C it was still starting eventually last week. Thanks for helping with the diagnosis. Judith > >My (1997 ES) 300Tdi Disco has always been a good starter but has been a > >bit slow in the recent cold weather. The engine turns on the starter [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Judith Ahem. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!! Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay >> Have tried a few shops but nobody seems to have any of the right type >> (and it's New Year's Eve afternoon so most places are shutting now). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Ahem. I wasn't ignoring you, Richard. A colleague at work only managed to change two of the plugs of his 200Tdi so he's given me his spares. I reckon 2 out of 4 is better than none so will fit them this weekend. Judith > A colleague at work only managed to change two of the plugs of his > 200Tdi so he's given me his spares. I reckon 2 out of 4 is better > than none so will fit them this weekend. Don't. Get a full set. As each plug blows the current draw, and consequently voltage drop lessens which leads to excessive voltage to the remaining plugs causing them to either fail or have a significantly shortened lifespan. SignatureEMB >> A colleague at work only managed to change two of the plugs of his >> 200Tdi so he's given me his spares. I reckon 2 out of 4 is better [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the remaining plugs causing them to either fail or have a significantly >shortened lifespan. not on a parallel-wired one, though? they all in theory get 12V nominal. Mind, if the power distribution is not balanced there may be a minor effect that the one at the end of the line gets less voltage. The effect on battery voltage is minor, or should be, and in any case the plugs are mean to be able to handle 12V. There's also the point that on a TDi, 2 plugs are probably enough to make sure that it starts... Still good practice top replace the set though - it's like spark plugs, no point in changing part of a set, except if one gets broken or something. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that "There are three sorts of people in the world - those who can count, and those who can't" (Anon) >> Don't. Get a full set. As each plug blows the current draw, and >> consequently voltage drop lessens which leads to excessive voltage to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Mind, if the power distribution is not balanced there may be a minor effect > that the one at the end of the line gets less voltage. That and the drop in the feed. Steve > not on a parallel-wired one, though? they all in theory get 12V nominal. > Mind, if the power distribution is not balanced there may be a minor effect > that the one at the end of the line gets less voltage. > > The effect on battery voltage is minor, or should be, and in any case the > plugs are mean to be able to handle 12V. Check the voltage rating on the glow plugs - most '12V' ones are rated at between 7 and 11 volts. The voltage drop in the wiring brings the voltage at the glow plug down to this level - reducing the current draw (eg a dead plug) lessens the voltage drop and thus increases the voltage across the remaining glow plugs. A quick test on my Hilux this morning shows 10.2V at the glow plugs, removing the connection to one glow plug raised this by 0.5V which has got to lessen the lifespan of the remaining plugs. SignatureEMB > ... > A colleague at work only managed to change two of the plugs of his > 200Tdi so he's given me his spares. Seems to be a common complaint - neighbour had a similar issue with his car[1]. Gave up and tasked the local tech with the job of fitting the remaining two. [1] blue, diesel - possibly made in france SignatureWilliam Tasso |
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