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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / January 2006you Brits are f***ed
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s01-woeu.html?s=itm <quote> In regional trial runs, the number of arrests per officer shot up from around 10 per year to 100 per year. Convictions also increased. </quote> > http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s01-woeu.html?s=itm > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > </quote> Yawn.  SignatureSubaru WRX Range Rover LSE (Bob) '"gimme the f*ckin' money" > http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s01-woeu.html?s=itm > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > </quote> So what's new? They've been doing this for ages on the motorways. Can only be a good thing. Nothing to fear, nothing to hide. >> http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s01-woeu.html?s=itm >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Can only be a good thing. Nothing to fear, nothing to hide. Not sure I follow the logic of that last statement. I fear the sky falling on me, don't think that has any affect on me hiding the booze from my errant offspring! I fear (sic) the statement lacks some grammatical necessities before understanding. Signature"He who says it cannot be done should not interrupt her doing it." If at first you don't succeed, maybe skydiving's not for you! >http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s01-woeu.html?s=itm > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ></quote> We are going to catch ten times more criminals. That's terrible... SignatureTim Hobbs >We are going to catch ten times more criminals. > >That's terrible... It's easier to create 10 times more criminals that are easier to catch than go after 10 times more currently adept at not getting caught criminals. Signature"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005 > <quote> > > In regional trial runs, the number of arrests per officer shot up from > around 10 per year to 100 per year. Convictions also increased. > > </quote> You have a point, also made in the article. The potential intrusion into civil liberty should not be taken lightly. The State cannot be relied upon to be benign or benevolent. Power actually can corrupt. Huw "Huw" wrote... >> <quote> >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > civil liberty should not be taken lightly. The State cannot be relied upon > to be benign or benevolent. Power actually can corrupt. Well said. Once again, like guns, what will happen is that the law abiding will be penalised, lose liberty, but the villains will simply find a way around it. False, or more accurately, cloned numberplates are an obvious way round the new system and are extensively in use already from what I've read. How long before an innocent person gets arrested for a crime because his cloned numberplate has been registered by a camera at a crime scene? My recent dealings with a member of the Police over my stolen 90 don't fill me with joy regarding their attitude. A SOCO who's first comment to me on the phone when the 90 was found was "glad to see your tyre depth is OK" obviously hasn't got her priorities in order in my book and certainly has no conception of customer service. When she's also not interested in a list of the tools stolen with the vehicle one does question what her job description actually covers. SignatureRegards Bob In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London >You have a point, also made in the article. The potential intrusion into >civil liberty should not be taken lightly. The State cannot be relied upon >to be benign or benevolent. Power actually can corrupt. The real 'problem' in the UK is the attitude that we must legislate for everything. Anything hits the press, the Government response is almost certainly going to be something along the lines of "we will introduce legislation to"... Now, nothing per-se wrong with tackling the effect, but little is being done to tackle the cause. If anything, we've moved substantially to a culture of immediate guilt, where innocence has to be proved. Signature"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005 > If anything, we've moved substantially to a culture of immediate > guilt, where innocence has to be proved. .. and more towards a scheme where not only is the above true, but guilt is assigned by automated camera-based systems reading easily faked ID tags. The innocent-have-nothing-to-fear brigade are way off the mark on this one. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > > If anything, we've moved substantially to a culture of immediate > > guilt, where innocence has to be proved. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > faked ID tags. The innocent-have-nothing-to-fear brigade are way off > the mark on this one. Not if the penalty for faking is *massive*, something like a no-quibble ten year automatic sentence for false number plates or similar. It's that faking that needs to be stopped so that the criminal *knows* they are going to prison even if they have not yet commited the offence which they were planning. If their crime was simply avoiding the congestion charge then that's their problem. I can think of no reason for having false plates other than to commit *some* offence, likewise using someone else ID, having someone else's bank details etc etc. Of course there does need to be common sense applied, unlike Ken and his mates in London where people in Cheshire get a congestion charge ticket for a vehicle that does not match the photo (which usally seems to get lost in such circumstances). Indeed, that is when the camears based systems could come to the fore - someone in Cheshire cannot be in two places at one time. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!! Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay > Not if the penalty for faking is *massive*, something like a > no-quibble ten year automatic sentence for false number plates or > similar. That would be absurd, large sentences for faking a numberplate and small sentences for killing a person, it wouldn't stack up. I'm sure this'll bring out comments of "large sentences for killing should be automatic", plenty of reasons why that shouldn't be the case and why no civilised country takes that approach. > It's that faking that needs to be stopped so that the criminal > *knows* they are going to prison even if they have not yet commited > the offence which they were planning. Locking people up because they might be going to commit a crime of a type you don't know? Now you're *really* talking about a police state! > I can think of no reason for having false plates other than to > commit *some* offence, likewise using someone else ID, having > someone else's bank details etc etc. Hmm, people wanting to avoid being identified could include someone who isn't trying to hide from the law, just from the wife or husband while out on a dogging jaunt or somesuch. Or people who strongly object to being tagged and tracked by corporations and governments, despite not doing anything unlawful (I'd put myself in this category). I don't live in a glass house, I wear clothes rather than walk naked and if some random person wanted me to empty my pockets I'd tell them to sod off, however I don't have anything to hide. The more that we're tagged and identifed, the more people are going to want to fake plates, e.g. someone out in the country with no public transport who's skint but has to drive down toll roads charged on license plates could well find themselves in the situation where they have to work but can't afford to pay the congestion charges that are likely to spring up all over the shop charged on your license plate. If they can travel for little cost in their car then rather than use expensive public transport and pay expensive congestion charges then they may well decide to fake their plates at least for a while in order to get back on financial track. 10 years punishment for that. It'll hit the poor most of all. This is just one simple example, the more charges and bureaucracy that are foisted on us, the more ordinary people are going to want to wriggle. Slapping a 10-year sentence on a wriggle is a little OTT. Can you predict what amazing schemes various mayors and councils will scheme up in their idle hours once they have access to a means to automatically approximately identify citizens as they move around in their area? If you strongly object to some stupid scheme that some moron has dreamed up but the normal channels don't result in any changes (e.g try protesting against London Congestion Charge or most planning applications) then what do you do? How about a mass protest where people swap plates, 10 years jail term for all! > Of course there does need to be common sense applied "Common sense" is one of those wonderful subjective things that people bandy about that mean one thing to them and the opposite to others. I'd say you've shown none on this subject but plenty on others. Remember that common sense dictated that the earth was flat and the stars and sun went around the earth. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > > Not if the penalty for faking is *massive*, something like a > > no-quibble ten year automatic sentence for false number plates or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > should be automatic", plenty of reasons why that shouldn't be the case > and why no civilised country takes that approach. The size of sentances for murder/manslaugheter is another issue altogether. > > It's that faking that needs to be stopped so that the criminal > > *knows* they are going to prison even if they have not yet commited [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > type you don't know? Now you're *really* talking about a police > state! No - they *have* comitted a crime - faking. Why should they do that, if not to cover another crime? > > I can think of no reason for having false plates other than to > > commit *some* offence, likewise using someone else ID, having [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > planning applications) then what do you do? How about a mass protest > where people swap plates, 10 years jail term for all! I can't see what your point is. It is already the case that if you can't afford, for example, to insure your car you shouldn't drive it and doing so is a offence. Nothing new there. If you want to cheat on your partner that is your problem. > > Of course there does need to be common sense applied > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Remember that common sense dictated that the earth was flat and the > stars and sun went around the earth. And I would say exactly the same to you, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. You should try living on an "estate" as I do to see what the real world is like, it was a huge shock getting there after the "nice", "comfortable" world that those who bang on about civil liberties seem to live in, and I used to. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!! Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay > No - they *have* comitted a crime - faking. Why should they do that, > if not to cover another crime? 10 years for trying to dodge paying car tax, I'm assuming that you'd be happy with that? Just exactly how many prisons do you think we'd need if we started banging people up for massive lengths of time for trivial offences, and would you be willing to foot the tax bills to pay for it? You'd be the first to moan about the costs I expect, then probably propose on-the-spot hanging to reduce your tax. > I can't see what your point is. Ask an adult. Another scenario, jilted lover swaps plates on ex-lovers car, reports ex-lover to police, ex-lover goes to jail for 10 years. Sieg Heil. > And I would say exactly the same to you, so we'll just have to agree to > disagree. You should try living on an "estate" as I do to see what the > real world is like, it was a huge shock getting there after the "nice", > "comfortable" world that those who bang on about civil liberties seem > to live in, and I used to. Ah it's all the fault of those people in the smart houses, the ones who pay the tax. Did you know that top-rate tax payers make up 12% of the population but pay 60% of taxes? That's 60% of the cash this country generates, paid by just 12% of the population. Remember that next time you slag off people who don't live on an 'estate'. As for me, I lived in the scummiest parts of Reading for 10 years and was even homeless for 4 months, living in derelict houses with boarded-up windows, no water, heating or electric. I didn't come out goose-stepping. I know what people at the bottom end of society are like, but most of them were decent folk trying to scrape a living. In a world where simply getting from A to B is getting more and more expensive, it's going to be hard for them to stay lawful. It must be nice for you to say that there's no excuse for being skint. It's bad enough in the cities, but in the country (not everyone who lives outside of a city is rich, you might be surprised to know) it's even harder, bus services are useless, in my village they start at 10AM and finish at 4PM, taxis cost £20 a shot to the nearest town. Locals who have no job and no car are screwed. On Luing, the island my brother-in-law lives on, the ferry to the mainland costs £11 per trip for a car, so many of the poorer islanders use old derelict illegal cars to drive on the island and have their legal cars on the mainland and row across the short bit of water or catch the cheaper pedestrian ferry, otherwise they'd not be able to afford to go to work. No work on the island since the slate-cutting industry took a dive, there's no work on the farms and the fishing industry died too. You think these people deserve 10 years in prison of course. But of course you know all this, as you live on an "estate", apologies for telling you what you already know. Stick to landies, you know something about those. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! >Stick to landies, you know something about those. One of the nice things about Landies is their border breaking abilities. Shame their owners forget about the Marque then go an build new borders around religin an polytiks an stuph really, but it passes next time the fecka develops a leak - thankfully :-) > > > If anything, we've moved substantially to a culture of immediate > > > guilt, where innocence has to be proved. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Richard So what happens if in all innocence you buy a car with the wrong plates on it - should you go away for 10 years? This happened to one of my staff and it was only when he noticed that the security etching on the glass had two numbers reversed compared to the plates that it came to light. Garage (main dealer) had made new plates so it looked smarter to sell but the opperator who did it made an error. AWEM > > > > If anything, we've moved substantially to a culture of immediate > > > > guilt, where innocence has to be proved. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > AWEM The matter gets investigated, as it obviously was, and resolved, as it obvioulsy was - there is no change there excpet the ease of detecting the error. Richard > >You have a point, also made in the article. The potential intrusion into > >civil liberty should not be taken lightly. The State cannot be relied upon [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If anything, we've moved substantially to a culture of immediate > guilt, where innocence has to be proved. Paricularly if you need to defend yourself...... Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!! Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay > If anything, we've moved substantially to a culture of immediate > guilt, where innocence has to be proved. Which is very much the wrong way round. How can you prove a negative? aghasee <number.one@center.court> uttered summat worrerz funny about: > http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s01-woeu.html?s=itm > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > </quote> If there was a bobby on my shift only churning out 10 arrests a year then there would be some serious questions being asked even without such technology. I wouldn't ask an officer to lock up 100 crooks if I hadn't done it myself in a year. In the main I may add for "Priority" Crime. To those less in the know thats the likes of burglars and drug dealers. 10 Arrests...pah! Lee D The real problem is the number of twats (and many obviously drive Land Rovers judging by some of the responses here) to this very serious matter of loss of civil liberty. Why did we bother with the 2nd German war? We are now getting the Nazi style government by general consent!!! Wake up and smell the jack boots!!! > The real problem is the number of twats (and many obviously drive Land > Rovers judging by some of the responses here) to this very serious matter of > loss of civil liberty. Why did we bother with the 2nd German war? We are now > getting the Nazi style government by general consent!!! > Wake up and smell the jack boots!!! Any point you are trying to make has lost by being abusive. Richard Signaturewww.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!! Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay Peter <peterf.zipcaplen@homecall.co.uk> uttered summat worrerz funny about: > The real problem is the number of twats (and many obviously drive Land > Rovers judging by some of the responses here) to this very serious > matter of loss of civil liberty. Why did we bother with the 2nd > German war? We are now getting the Nazi style government by general > consent!!! Wake up and smell the jack boots!!! But it's only an issue regards the civil liberty of criminals, what about the civil liberty of the victims of those criminal?. Wrongfull convictions are a different kettle of fish and happen across the globe. To liken our situation to that of persons in the 2nd world war clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding. It appears on the face of it to be a knee jerk reply to provoke mass comment based on opinion, perhaphs trolling? Twats come in all shapes and sizes as you no doubt are aware, I don't think any landrover owners would argue that. Lee > If there was a bobby on my shift only churning out 10 arrests a year then > there would be some serious questions being asked even without such > technology. So you're going to go by numbers to judge an officer's performance. Perhaps some officers are better at their jobs than others and can integrate, talk to the public in a polite and civil manner and help avoid arrests. But you're going to stop that because their heavy handed pals are locking up groups of protestors by the dozen therefore making their arrest record look, those officers who are good at their jobs are going to be pulled up because they managed to get the ringleader. Man, someone's thought this through well. Machines are soo good at sorting these situations out, aren't they? > 10 Arrests...pah! Spoken like a man that's never been wrongfully accused and treated by police officers in a way that I wouldn't treat a dog. Not me, someone I know well. It really scares me to think that a serving police officer would take such a light view of arrests. I know we're pretty much in the EU already with all the nastiness therein (and the day we join the EU, goodbye to uk members in alt.fan.landrover) please remember two words next time you think about arresting someone - "habeas corpus" Tell the serfs to focus on the right people, not numbers! Regards William MacLeod willie@macleod-group.com <willie@macleod-group.com> uttered summat worrerz funny about: > So you're going to go by numbers to judge an officer's performance. In part yes, numbers are easy to qualntify but only a small part of the big picture. > Perhaps some officers are better at their jobs than others and can > integrate, talk to the public in a polite and civil manner and help > avoid arrests. Indeed, but 90 of them? > But you're going to stop that because their heavy > handed pals are locking up groups of protestors by the dozen therefore > making their arrest record look, No, personally I've never locked up a protestor, In 12 Years I've never been accused of assaulting a person during arrest either. Your making an assumption that theres a natural attraction to locking up protestors to bump up numbers I think. I said in the origional reply my arrests in the period measured were in the main "Priority" crime suspects.Protestors aren't a priority for the Public at large, Indeed I spent 5 days away from home last year ensuring Protestors could exercise their right to protest in a different country. Hope that clarifies that at least. >those officers who are good at their > jobs are going to be pulled up because they managed to get the > ringleader. Man, someone's thought this through well. Machines are > soo good at sorting these situations out, aren't they? No officers I'm aware of get paid per item. What would be an issue would be if one officer is making 10 arrests and the rest of the shift 100 in a year. That would lead me to examine why.. though normally I'm pleased to say it's because they have been office bound for a period of that year, or sick, or on maternity leave for example. Some are less confrontational which can lead to them not being ascertive enough to perform their appointment, this is an issue. >> 10 Arrests...pah! > > Spoken like a man that's never been wrongfully accused Wrong, (in fact add another to the list) > and treated by > police officers in a way that I wouldn't treat a dog. > Not me, I love this bit, it's so predictable..... > someone > I know well. Now I'm disappointed, no war story! > It really scares me to think that a serving police > officer would take such a light view of arrests. Arrests are part of a bigger picture. My view is that the figures in the site provided are either from a small island fortunate enough to have very few criminals, perhaphs Balamory, or seriously made up. They could be an average of arrests against a police forces establishment , that should be stated in the quote though as it's very misleading to suggest that any device would increase the average across the establishment to 100 if that is the case. > I know we're pretty > much in the EU already with all the nastiness therein (and the day we > join the EU, goodbye to uk members in alt.fan.landrover) please > remember two words next time you think about arresting someone - > "habeas corpus" I'll ignore the politics completely as I don't do politics. I admit I had to look this up... it's big words you see and I'm only a bobby. Now there are some big words in there but I think I understand that. And your point is? > Tell the serfs to focus on the right people, not numbers! Is that like Priority Criminals? where the Priority is decided by the people not the police? How do the people monitor if the Serfs are focusing on the right people without numbers? Sticking a finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing is only as good as the persons it's attached to and their Opinion. I personally as a recent victim of crime as well as a serving officer would not care for opinions, I like to see facts. Now I'll comment no more in this thread but am happy to continue by email, which I'll gladly copy and paste to web space for those who feel the need. This is after all AFL and not death.by.opinion. Lee Lee wrote: > lots Sorry Lee, looking back on that it was unjustifiably harsh on you, you were taking what should really have gone to a CC Latimer who you may have heard of (he wangled a new RR HSE out of his expenses - a.f.l. link) so I'm sorry. You sound like a good cop (anyone that approves of V8 engines can't be too politically correct! :-) Regards William MacLeod willie@macleod-group.com <willie@macleod-group.com> uttered summat worrerz funny about: > Sorry Lee, No problem :-) Lee >In the main I may add for "Priority" Crime. To those >less in the know thats the likes of burglars and drug dealers. Yebut there's them there stats and targits init... Small village in Somewhereshire had no crime, then, late one Tuesday two houses were burgled - the culprit was never found. When the stats were released the village had a 100 percent unsolved crime rate and house prices went down. A local law was passed making it illegal to wear a hat on Friday mornings. Hence, one Friday morning a raid was led on the small village. 98 people were arrested for wearing a hat, taken before the local Court and fined. The next stats proved a 98 percent clean-up rate for crime and house prices rose. If anyone knows who the burglar was, can they ask he return my false teeth, please? SignatureBit sad that we still, in this age of communications, have so many folk who wear blinkers and are convinced that the whole world is the same as their own extremely limited view of it. Peter G Strangman Born 1937, rang-off: 1999-07-08 > If anyone knows who the burglar was, can they ask he return my false > teeth, please? I reckon it was someone in this forum, the amount of yakking that's going on they must have worn their own out! Get some metal ones made, then you can dispense with the tin snips. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s01-woeu.html?s=itm > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > </quote> So, Big Brother comes to life.... Erik-Jan. Well done Lee, while I have little to hide, I also am not inclined to help the police, and yet also don't wish to be affected by other ppl doing illegal deeds. Want my cake and eat it. Personally there are parts of the justice system that are way off balance, for example points on your licence for speeding, which if having a licence permits you to earn your living, can result in the loss of employment. Fair I think not. Don't get me wrong I have a clean licence, but should the state have the power to remove some persons employment by default? >Well done Lee, while I have little to hide, I also am not inclined to help >the police, and yet also don't wish to be affected by other ppl doing [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >should the state have the power to remove some persons employment by >default? there again, it takes either very silly speeding or repeated speeding to lose yer licence, so it could be that after getting a few points you ought to be more careful - either don't exceed the limits or don't get caught. I reckon that having 9 points on me licence would suddenly make me very law-abiding... SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Blue: The sky is blue for a reason. Blue light is a source of strength and harmony in the cosmos. Create a blue light in your life by telephoning the police from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. >I also am not inclined to help the police I always allow myself a little giggle at this particular type of comment. Heard it sooo many times and yet it is odd, when something happens to the person who's said it, invariably the first call they make will be, yep... No further comment... :-) Signature"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005 >> I also am not inclined to help the police > > I always allow myself a little giggle at this particular type of > comment. Heard it sooo many times and yet it is odd, when something > happens to the person who's said it, invariably the first call they > make will be, yep... No further comment... :-) Yes - the irony is inescapable, but have you ever actually needed to employ the services of our glorious law enforcement [sic] agency? So far as it appears from here, the police are positioning themselves as the worlds greatest data capture agency - I'm a little surprised they're not bidding for commercial contracts - maybe they do. SignatureWilliam Tasso >Yes - the irony is inescapable, but have you ever actually needed to >employ the services of our glorious law enforcement [sic] agency? Not employ, but I listen and evaluate their evidence as much as the defendant or (in a growing number of cases) plaintiff. >So far as it appears from here, the police are positioning themselves as >the worlds greatest data capture agency They are nowhere near, and neither will they be, _EVER_ not even the slightest bit close - in your wildest of dreams! Besides this (not overly paranoid as it happens) assertion, you need to realise that it is NOT the police who are demanding extra powers, and indeed, are somewhat concerned as to how they will devote resources to increased expectations and responsibilities. > - I'm a little surprised they're >not bidding for commercial contracts - maybe they do. The majority of forces in the UK make a fair amount of revenue from contracted services - if they didn't, UK residents would be paying for rock concerts and the like. your choice, Rock Steady Security also have the same contracts - where would you prefer your money to go? Truth is, prolly, that there are reasons to be paranoid. If you're not, you're not paying enough attention. The police aren't your worry, though, they only do as the rest of us are free to do; Exactly as we're told. SignatureI had to pay 50 Dollars and pick up the garbage. >> Yes - the irony is inescapable, but have you ever actually needed to >> employ the services of our glorious law enforcement [sic] agency? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > They are nowhere near, and neither will they be, _EVER_ not even the > slightest bit close - in your wildest of dreams! hrmm - I dunno. seems there are always many questions to answer, no matter why one communicates with them. > Besides this (not overly paranoid as it happens) assertion, you need > to realise that it is NOT the police who are demanding extra powers, > and indeed, are somewhat concerned as to how they will devote > resources to increased expectations and responsibilities. Oh - don't get me wrong. I firmly believe that most people are decent enough one-to-one. Let's put this in a different context ... there are many skilled and dedicated software engineers working at microsoft/google/oracle that do actually do a good job - nobody starts the day thinking "I'm really gonna screw up today." >> - I'm a little surprised they're >> not bidding for commercial contracts - maybe they do. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rock concerts and the like. your choice, Rock Steady Security also > have the same contracts - where would you prefer your money to go? not bothered really - don't have enough facts/info to make a judgement - although I'd be a little concerned if providing contracted 'security' for any size event means less emphasis on local law and order. > Truth is, prolly, that there are reasons to be paranoid. If you're > not, you're not paying enough attention. The police aren't your > worry, though, they only do as the rest of us are free to do; > > Exactly as we're told. Ahh - to summarise then, the police are merely the face of our executive, the front-line, just doing their job - did I get that right? The proles will always get the government they/we deserve. In any event, the Land Rover doesn't seem to be such a pull magnet as other vehicles I've driven - despite being fairly tatty in appearance. SignatureWilliam Tasso 110 V8 > So, Big Brother comes to life.... > Erik-Jan. Big Brother has been here for years and is getter healthier by the day under this government. > > So, Big Brother comes to life.... > > Erik-Jan. > > Big Brother has been here for years and is getter healthier by the day > under this government. It ain't any better here!! (Netherlands) Erik-Jan. What few people realise is that in pre industrial Britain there were few places to hide, the population was much smaller and people did not travel much therefore if you were wandering outside of your parish you could easily fall foul of the vagrancy laws just for being a stranger in the wrong place in a village full of paranoid people. You could end up being whipped from one end of the village to the other, put in the stocks, branded or worse. I think with this sort of thing there is safety in numbers as the average driver is too insignificant to be noticed even when blatantly committing repeat offences. We have had this sort of big brother thing for a long time, look at the way that TV licence legislation works, the assumption is that any house that does not have a licence must contain someone who is watching TV illegally. I recall I used to get regular reminders trying to get me to buy a second licence when I was running a business from home, and yet still there are people who have never been caught out using a TV illegally. At one time you needed a licence for a radio, but that was abandoned when people stopped buying them with the advent of cheap go anywhere transistor radios, simply too many offenders so the law was considered unenforcable. For me, I am pretty sure that no-one is going to clone my vehicle succesfully, and I am quite sure I can prove whether any photo is genuinly of my car or not, notwithstanding the need is still there to prove who was driving if an offence is observed to have been committed. There are plenty of ways for smart lawyers round practically everything, Besides not all number plates will be machine readable, for instance in heavily congested areas where traffic is bumper to bumper you won't see most of them for the car infront or behind. Anyway if my landie is ever stolen, at least I can have some idea of where it has been. Anything that drives uninsured drivers off the road has to be a good thing, there are too many victims of hit and run accidents. SignatureLarry Series 3 rust and holes > http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0111/p01s01-woeu.html?s=itm > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > </quote> > Besides not all number plates will be machine readable, for instance > in heavily congested areas where traffic is bumper to bumper you > won't see most of them for the car infront or behind. Within ten years the Galileo satellite system will render optical technology redundant. Everyone will be mapped and charged in real time all the time. > Anyway if my landie is ever stolen, at least I can have some idea of > where it has been. > > Anything that drives uninsured drivers off the road has to be a good > thing, there are too many victims of hit and run accidents. I may be wrong but I don't think many hit and run drivers get away undetected these days. Also uninsured drivers have now been dealt with along with untaxed vehicles. The erosion of civil liberty from the loss of motoring privacy and freedom from being spied on is just part of a bigger picture which is no problem as long as the Government is benign and benevolent. The easier it is for the powers that be to regulate the population then the higher the temptation for any Government to try to use those powers for their own end. The American constitution allows its citizens to bear arms partly for that particular reason, so they can defend themselves from a malevolent central power. We should never take our liberty for granted as once it is lost it is extremely costly to regain. Just look at the state of a lot of countries coming out of oppressive government around the globe today. Huw Yes but in Switzerland even bicycles are registered yet they have the highest gun count per head of population anywhere that I am aware of. SignatureLarry Series 3 rust and holes except to someone who does not believe in the laws of mathematics" > I may be wrong but I don't think many hit and run drivers get away > undetected these days. Also uninsured drivers have now been dealt with along [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Huw > Yes but in Switzerland even bicycles are registered yet they have the > highest gun count per head of population anywhere that I am aware of. Why "yes but"? Huw If I were you I would be more paranoid about the government spying on the internet trawling for people who are talking about guns and revolution. SignatureLarry Series 3 rust and holes > Why "yes but"? > > Huw > If I were you I would be more paranoid about the government spying on > the internet trawling for people who are talking about guns and > revolution. But we have a relitively benign Government at the moment, albeit one that is intent on putting unacceptable mechanisms in place whether by accident or design. If the nature of Government were to change then I would worry. Huw >>If I were you I would be more paranoid about the government spying on >>the internet trawling for people who are talking about guns and >>revolution. > > But we have a relatively benign Government at the moment, Benign? - this is the most meddling, intrusive, money-grabbing, dishonest (enough, enough..) Government that I've experienced in my lifetime. > If I were you I would be more paranoid about the government spying on > the internet trawling for people who are talking about guns and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Huw I shall just spoof my email address, that'll foil them? Signature"He who says it cannot be done is advised not to interrupt her doing it." If at first you don't succeed, maybe skydiving's not for you! > I shall just spoof my email address, that'll foil them? Or use mixmaster to send email and post to news, that's a beeatch to try and trace even with direct mixmaster node monitoring. I really must get around to setting a node up sometime, despite not having a need for it myself. Hell I don't even spamtrap my email address! SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > Within ten years the Galileo satellite system will render optical > technology redundant. Everyone will be mapped and charged in real > time all the time. I'm sure there will be an option to avoid having it in the car, but you pay more money. Those who can't afford it have to have it installed to save them money, but it can still be claimed that it's not compulsory. Get the poor, and work yer way up! Given that most petty crime and vandalism is caused by those on the lower incomes (much of which is because there's so many) that'll be something to sell the idea to any better-off resisters and Daily Mail readers. They need some hook to make it seem like people want it. I was puzzled and rather disconcerted by the way that the normally admirable BBC website mentioned civil liberties arguments in the first article about it, but quickly moved across to articles that only emphasise the positive aspects with civil liberties arguments only present on the "have your say" pages where they were the majority view. Not sure what the beeb's playing at there. I wonder what'll happen if you block the signal using metal grounding plates or whatever, I'm sure some will call for 10 years in jail as you must be hiding something! > I may be wrong but I don't think many hit and run drivers get away > undetected these days. Also uninsured drivers have now been dealt > with along with untaxed vehicles. Also, the casual linking of uninsured drivers and hit 'n' run accidents by the previous poster seems somewhat random and unsupportable, uninsured drivers make our premiums more expensive and that's all, but hit 'n' run drivers can be insured or uninsured. I don't see a link between them. > The erosion of civil liberty from the loss of motoring privacy and > freedom from being spied on is just part of a bigger picture which > is no problem as long as the Government is benign and benevolent. The often quoted possibility here is when the BNP get into a local council and start feeding information to thugs. I'd add power-happy local councillers (and there's plenty of them) to that list. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! >> Within ten years the Galileo satellite system will render optical >> technology redundant. Everyone will be mapped and charged in real >> time all the time. > > I'm sure there will be an option to avoid having it in the car, but > you pay more money... Galileo satellite system will be capturing/providing visual imagery as well as positioning services - in-vehicle technology is not required to track location. I have no idea if the resolution is good enough for unassisted number plate recognition. SignatureWilliam Tasso 110 V8 (white) > Galileo satellite system will be capturing/providing visual imagery > as well as positioning services - in-vehicle technology is not > required to track location. I doubt that very very much indeed, resolution of that depth is extremely expensive indeed, and getting it to cover an area as wide as the UK wouldn't be possible. As an example, the Hubble Space Telescope can't even resolve objects smaller than about 10 metres on the moon. NASA fake-moon-landing freaks often point to the lack of images of the Apollo moon landing sites from Hubble as proof of fakery, but even that thing can't resolve enough detail. The whole moon landing site would show up as one pixel. The Hubble replacement won't be able to do it either apparently. And this is without an atmosphere and clouds etc to complicate matters. > I have no idea if the resolution is good enough for unassisted number > plate recognition. Not unless we have to put mile-long reg plates on the roof of the car ;-) SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! >> Galileo satellite system will be capturing/providing visual imagery >> as well as positioning services - in-vehicle technology is not >> required to track location. > > I doubt that very very much indeed, and I hope you're right :) > resolution of that depth is > extremely expensive indeed, and getting it to cover an area as wide as > the UK wouldn't be possible. sure - but Galileo isn't just one satelite. There's also the issue of cross referenced data - only needs one positive id at ground level x-ref'd to the birdseye view to provide a complete trace. SignatureWilliam Tasso > sure - but Galileo isn't just one satelite. There's also the issue of > cross referenced data - only needs one positive id at ground level x-ref'd > to the birdseye view to provide a complete trace. How many cars do you think it would be able to track by sight? A satellite that transmits time-based signals for hundreds of thousands of receivers to pick up is realistic, a satellite that can sight-track even 100 cars at once on the other hand is science fiction. It would have to use moving lenses rather than fixed CCDs to aim, and getting that kind of precision from that far up would need the whole satellite to be built to the kind of specification of the very expensive Hubble (low vibration, high precision), but with one "hubble" for every car that is to be tracked by sight. Also I've not seen any references anywhere to any sight-based services, it sounds like you're off on an area-51-style fantasy. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > ... > Also I've not seen any references anywhere to any sight-based > services, Ahh - I was picking up on a story about using the new facilities to verify whether conservatories and other home 'improvements' had been declared to the rating authorities - my bad - I assumed that would use visual data. > it sounds like you're off on an area-51-style fantasy. could be :) SignatureWilliam Tasso 110 V8 Yes because that is not a moving target, and can wait for the weather. SignatureLarry Series 3 rust and holes > > services, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > could be :) > Yes because that is not a moving target, and can wait for the weather. I've not seen any references to using Galileo to spot conservatories, or even of the satellites having any camera gear on board at all. There was a spacecraft called "Galileo" that had camera gear on board but that was an explorer craft sent out to Jupiter in 1989, and there was some references to John "I don't pay council tax" Prescott waffling on about using satellites to spot unauthorised extensions. I reckon someone's gotten a bit information-happy and lumped three stories into one then built a one-way tracking system up into a visual tracking system that can track individual cars across the UK! If anyone has any *credible* sources of information about visual tracking on the Galileo GPS equivalent satellites, do please post a URL. As far as I can see, it offers precision positioning information of various grades and a slow downlink facility for companies to allow them to reach pager-like devices all over the world, but that's it. Hardly sinister, it's what's done with receiving tracking devices that can be worrying but that's true of current GPS. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! >it sounds like you're off on an area-51-style fantasy. There is no wind on the moon. > There is no wind on the moon. Well not until Richard Branson gets there anyway! SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! In order to read a numberplate, what is required is to be able to view it at a relatively vertical angle, something that roadside cameras can only achieve when the view is unobscured and the camera carefully placed, something sattellites cannot do due. SignatureLarry Series 3 rust and holes > sure - but Galileo isn't just one satelite. There's also the issue of > cross referenced data - only needs one positive id at ground level x-ref'd > to the birdseye view to provide a complete trace. > As an example, the Hubble Space Telescope can't even resolve objects > smaller than about 10 metres on the moon. There are images of tracks on the moon taken by one of the recent probes (Clementine ?) It is well known that Hubble isn't the only 2 metre scope in orbit, just the only one pointing out.... Steve >There are images of tracks on the moon taken by one of the recent probes Fakes. Where's the kin landing craft then? It's all a big conspir... [click] >>There are images of tracks on the moon taken by one of the recent probes > >Fakes. Where's the kin landing craft then? It's all a big conspir... > >[click] http://www.charlottehobbs.com/gallery/Oddments Third squiggle from the left... Obvious when you see it. SignatureTim Hobbs > http://www.charlottehobbs.com/gallery/Oddments > > Third squiggle from the left... Obvious when you see it. Cheers, you can still see the wheelie bins they left up there! SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! > There are images of tracks on the moon taken by one of the recent > probes (Clementine ?) Images of things that have been tentatively labelled as "tracks", but they're 75 feet wide so I don't think that was anything left by the astronauts! They were taken from the Lunar Orbiter. On the images I've seen, the tracks are barely visible because the camera's resolution is, again, too low to make out anything small. The Clementine probe is well-known in Capricorn-1 freak circles, including photos showing a 30-mile wide "replica of the Pentagon" proving a manned base on the moon (...), but it's a fuzzy blob due to the resolution limitations of the camera. Mars Global Surveyor can pick up objects of 1-2 metres on Mars though. Still not good enough to track a car, just register that a sort-of-car-shaped-thing is there. A normal car would be approximately a 2x1 pixel line. > It is well known that Hubble isn't the only 2 metre scope in orbit, > just the only one pointing out.... I just hope they point it away when the sun's behind it ;-) (yes I know, I'm only joking) Anyhow, I've not seen any references to camera technology in the Galileo satellite constellation so quite why we're still going on about this subject I don't know! I expect it's possible to get high-enough resolving powers to make out a car, but making it out reliably enough to track it and prove that it's the right car, never mind read a numberplate, while simultaneously having enough controllable cameras or field of view to track hundreds of cars across the country is pie-in-the-sky rather than spy-in-the-sky. SignatureBlast off and strike the evil Bydo empire! >> Galileo satellite system will be capturing/providing visual imagery >> as well as positioning services - in-vehicle technology is not [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Not unless we have to put mile-long reg plates on the roof of the car >;-) If you know where to look when you use google earth, you can even identify Grumble on the high res images..... SignatureSimon Isaacs Peterborough 4x4 Club Newsletter Editor and Webmaster Green Lane Association (GLASS) Financial Director 101 Ambi, undergoing camper conversion www.simoni.co.uk 1976 S3 LWT, Fully restored, ready for sale! Make me an offer! Suzuki SJ410 (Wife's) 3" lift kit fitted, body shell now restored and mounted on chassis, waiting on a windscreen and MOT Series 3 88" Rolling chassis...what to do next 1993 200 TDi Discovery 1994 200 TDi Discovery body sheel, being bobbed and modded..... >If you know where to look when you use google earth, you can even >identify Grumble on the high res images..... Infamy, infamy, they've all got it.... What a carry-on! >If you know where to look when you use google earth, you can even >identify Grumble on the high res images..... haha. I've just wasted half an hour 101 hunting on google earth :) Mine is hidden under a tree I think (or the picture is a tad too old). Every other one i know round here is not in a decently covered area and its all a blur :( >>If you know where to look when you use google earth, you can even >>identify Grumble on the high res images..... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Every other one i know round here is not in a decently covered area >and its all a blur :( Mine's fairly clear, and there is a distinct purple blob in Sheffield... SignatureTim Hobbs >>>If you know where to look when you use google earth, you can even >>>identify Grumble on the high res images..... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Mine's fairly clear, and there is a distinct purple blob in >Sheffield... I've found the purple one!. Its gonna take me a while to scan the rest of yorkshire looking for your house though ;) >I've found the purple one!. Its gonna take me a while to scan the rest >of yorkshire looking for your house though ;) You'll need to look a little further South, now... So, a set of pointers for 101s on Google Earth - what a very sad collection to start, erm... Signature"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005 > ... > So, a set of pointers for 101s on Google Earth - what a very sad > collection to start, erm... Start a map: Google Maps Guestmap - http://www.mapservices.org/myguestmap/ initialise: http://www.mapservices.org/myguestmap/register.do SignatureWilliam Tasso >> So, a set of pointers for 101s on Google Earth - what a very sad >> collection to start, erm... > >Start a map: Yeah - a thieves guide... :-( >>> So, a set of pointers for 101s on Google Earth - what a very sad >>> collection to start, erm... >> >> Start a map: > > Yeah - a thieves guide... :-( hear ya - thought occured just after posting. I suspect that with a bit of deliberatly fuzzy data, a general plan of loacations could be achieved at resolutions useful enough to plan a meet, but useless for pin-point targetting. SignatureWilliam Tasso >I suspect that with a bit of deliberatly fuzzy data, a general plan of >loacations could be achieved at resolutions useful enough to plan a meet, >but useless for pin-point targetting. I've been thinking about doing a basic demographics map for some time. Too much jbex and too few tuits, mind... Signature"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005 >Mine's fairly clear, and there is a distinct purple blob in >Sheffield... Good grief - that's scary. Wonder when it was taken - GS is there, but the S3 seems to have the old tilt on it - so dates it at at least 3 years old, which seems unlikely. Signature"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005 >>Mine's fairly clear, and there is a distinct purple blob in >>Sheffield... > >Good grief - that's scary. Wonder when it was taken - GS is there, >but the S3 seems to have the old tilt on it - so dates it at at least >3 years old, which seems unlikely. It's old, 'cos a) mine is still there and b) it's all ally, no paint. At least 2 years old, prolly more like three. There's also a small playhouse missing (visible from Jupiter) which went up for Charlotte early last year. We are using it for househunting - very useful in eliminating houses with too-small gardens. We went to see one yesterday to find a double garage where Google Earth showed a garden! SignatureTim Hobbs >>Good grief - that's scary. Wonder when it was taken - GS is there, >>but the S3 seems to have the old tilt on it - so dates it at at least >>3 years old, which seems unlikely. > >It's old, 'cos a) mine is still there and b) it's all ally, no paint. >At least 2 years old, prolly more like three. Kin eck - yeah, see what you mean! >There's also a small playhouse missing (visible from Jupiter) which >went up for Charlotte early last year. No hammock in the garden either :-) >We are using it for househunting - very useful in eliminating houses >with too-small gardens. We went to see one yesterday to find a double >garage where Google Earth showed a garden! I've found that the areas where I'm looking for property are just too low resolution to make any sense, sadly :-( Signature"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005 >>>Good grief - that's scary. Wonder when it was taken - GS is there, >>>but the S3 seems to have the old tilt on it - so dates it at at least [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I've found that the areas where I'm looking for property are just too >low resolution to make any sense, sadly :-( Kent? Colleague was looking for his house yesterday, and it's very fuzzy indeed. SignatureTim Hobbs >>>If you know where to look when you use google earth, you can even >>>identify Grumble on the high res images..... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Mine's fairly clear, and there is a distinct purple blob in >Sheffield... it isn't in its correct place theough, they haven't done lincolnshire in enough detail to see it at mine! SignatureSimon Isaacs Peterborough 4x4 Club Newsletter Editor and Webmaster Green Lane Association (GLASS) Financial Director 101 Ambi, undergoing camper conversion www.simoni.co.uk 1976 S3 LWT, Fully restored, ready for sale! Make me an offer! Suzuki SJ410 (Wife's) 3" lift kit fitted, body shell now restored and mounted on chassis, waiting on a windscreen and MOT Series 3 88" Rolling chassis...what to do next 1993 200 TDi Discovery 1994 200 TDi Discovery body sheel, being bobbed and modded..... >> If you know where to look when you use google earth, you can even >> identify Grumble on the high res images..... > > haha. I've just wasted half an hour 101 hunting on google earth :) ok - so I just had to look :) Google Earth eventually installed after 3 failed downloads. The DirectX mode trips out and OpenGL simply shows a black screen here - all menus and text/search functionality seems to work as intended. Oh well. > Mine is hidden under a tree I think (or the picture is a tad too old). > Every other one i know round here is not in a decently covered area > and its all a blur :( hrmm - yes, that just about sums up my weekend :) SignatureWilliam Tasso 110 V8 > ... > Google Earth ... simply shows a black screen here tried again - it's now burst into life for no apparent reason. groovy - can clearly see the 110 out front - must have been a fettling day, both off-side doors open. SignatureWilliam Tasso 110 V8 You could try polishing the top to a mirror finish, that would fool them into thinking you are merely a moving patch of water :) Solar panels might do the trick. SignatureLarry Series 3 rust and holes > haha. I've just wasted half an hour 101 hunting on google earth :) > > Mine is hidden under a tree I think (or the picture is a tad too old). > Every other one i know round here is not in a decently covered area > and its all a blur :( >You could try polishing the top to a mirror finish, that would fool them >into thinking you are merely a moving patch of water :) > >Solar panels might do the trick. Mine has got chequer plate on the roof now, so it might dazzle them if its a sunny day. It had the roof cross on the top (and stuck open) when the google picture was taken - its just a shame the tree was in the way! >Mine has got chequer plate on the roof now, so it might dazzle them if >its a sunny day. >It had the roof cross on the top (and stuck open) when the google >picture was taken - its just a shame the tree was in the way! Your home on Google Earth is in very low res. Do you keep the 101 elsewhere? Signature"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005 >>Mine has got chequer plate on the roof now, so it might dazzle them if >>its a sunny day. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Your home on Google Earth is in very low res. Do you keep the 101 >elsewhere? You think mine is low res - have you looked at Lee's? You can almost see his back garden but then he's on the edge of a picture tile and his road (and Morph) is made up of one big green pixel! We think that the big picture tile that i live in is different quality to the surroundings (like |
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