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Car Forum / Land Rover Cars / February 2006P38 RaRo bits into 101's (Mother?)
Someone i know is breaking a 90's P38 rangerover and I was wondering about the feasability of fitting its guts into my 101.. The trouble is that i know bugger all about these newfangled range rovers! Its a 4.0 injection with an auto gearbox, which in my mind would go quite nicely in a 101! How tricky would this be to do? - Is it a straight forward job? I'm assuming that the engine would fit stright in, but what would i have to do with the gearbox bits - I'm assuming i would need to fit new mounts and posibly props? anything else? I'm new to automatics too but I'm starting to feel lazy and it would save a lot of work in the 101! Is it also worth sticking with the efi bits or keeping the carbs? I'd be LPGing it. I know Martyn has done something similar with Grumble.. Can you tell me anything more Martyn? Tom Woods <news@NOPSAMtomwoods.co.uk> uttered summat worrerz funny about: > Someone i know is breaking a 90's P38 rangerover and I was wondering > about the feasability of fitting its guts into my 101.. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I know Martyn has done something similar with Grumble.. Can you tell > me anything more Martyn? Tis on my wish list, I'm currently battling with the "Origionality" of it all Morph being Morph. If Morph was any old truck It would be done. Dunno about the p38 gearbox thou... hang on.. Looks like your Choice is ZF 5 speed stptronicor GM5, the GM5 only appears to be fitted to the diesels. Can't get a good view of the transfer box ouputs from here so you need to pay attention to these. You should retain your 101 manifolds for the exhaust at least. Other question is how are Hi/Lo selected and how is the diff lock engadged. If both are manual you need to get creative. If the Diff lock is electronic then that would be a bonus as Bowden cables seem to cost a few quid, thats the cable which currently selects Hi/Lo. EFi gubbings needs to fit width wise.. height won't be as much of an issue as the gear change lever will be no more. Definatly need to get the tape measure out me thinks. Lee  Signaturewww.lrproject.com >Tis on my wish list, I'm currently battling with the "Origionality" of it >all Morph being Morph. If Morph was any old truck It would be done. Dunno >about the p38 gearbox thou... hang on.. Since youve done a fair few 'mods' already, would a new engine and box make much difference. You'd be sticking with rover bits... >Looks like your Choice is ZF 5 speed stptronicor GM5, the GM5 only appears >to be fitted to the diesels. Looking at 101fc.net, Martyn has a ZF 4 speed. Wonder how much difference there is? (apart from the extra gear!) >Can't get a good view of the transfer box ouputs from here so you need to >pay attention to these. You should retain your 101 manifolds for the exhaust >at least. Aye - especially since the exhaust is new! >Other question is how are Hi/Lo selected and how is the diff lock engadged. >If both are manual you need to get creative. If the Diff lock is electronic >then that would be a bonus as Bowden cables seem to cost a few quid, thats >the cable which currently selects Hi/Lo. Are the cables the same as a 90 handbrake cable? I have one of them stashed as it looked like it should do the job incase i fitted an overdrive! >EFi gubbings needs to fit width wise.. height won't be as much of an issue >as the gear change lever will be no more. How complicated is rover EFi? I'm going to LPG the truck either way.. - Austin - what sort of LPG kit am i looking at for a rover v8i?. I was originally looking at the cheapest stuff i could get (like i have on my carbed car), but do you need difference stuff for an EFi - or might i just aswell stick with the carbs and the nice simple lpg mixer that goes in the elbow? >Definatly need to get the tape measure out me thinks. I'm sure it could 'fit'! :) Im just wondering if the bits are suitable and how big a job im looking at. >Austin - what sort of LPG kit am i looking at for a rover v8i?. I was >originally looking at the cheapest stuff i could get (like i have on >my carbed car), but do you need difference stuff for an EFi - or might >i just aswell stick with the carbs and the nice simple lpg mixer that >goes in the elbow? Flapper or hotwire? either way, the best answer is the cunning relays to disconnect the injectors. for a flapper one you shoudl have an opener to hold the flap open on LPG, and/or a backfire protector so you don't risk exploding the AFM. Chris Perfect isn't doing gas (or springs) any more but a local chap has taken over running the business. Still the same phone number and website, http://www.chrisperfect.com, They do a variety of kits aimed at self-install. whether they'll sell part kits generally I don't know. >>Definatly need to get the tape measure out me thinks. > >I'm sure it could 'fit'! :) Im just wondering if the bits are suitable >and how big a job im looking at. > SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms... ------------------------------------------------\ >> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them. a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too! >>Austin - what sort of LPG kit am i looking at for a rover v8i?. I was >>originally looking at the cheapest stuff i could get (like i have on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Flapper or hotwire? I have no idea (like i said - too new for me!) >either way, the best answer is the cunning relays to disconnect the >injectors. for a flapper one you shoudl have an opener to hold the flap [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >They do a variety of kits aimed at self-install. whether they'll sell part >kits generally I don't know. Hmm. they arn't much more expensive than the normal kits :). I'll have to pop into the gas place here and ask them. Tom Woods <news@NOPSAMtomwoods.co.uk> uttered summat worrerz funny about: > Hmm. they arn't much more expensive than the normal kits :). I'll have > to pop into the gas place here and ask them. The one on our ES is a nice setup. Bigas. I think Car-Gas supply a similar system. Both are in effect sequential injection systems which tap in to the loom and fire up LPG injectors and shut down the petrol ones. Little more clever than that but saves all this worry about flaps and stuff. You would need to get some milage to justify both the engine and box and also LPG set up thou. Personally I'd do the rest first then consider engines and boxes further down the line. At least you only have bite size chunks to deal with then. Lee Signaturewww.lrproject.com > I have no idea (like i said - too new for me!) If it's from a P38 then it should be GEMS > Hmm. they arn't much more expensive than the normal kits :). I'll have > to pop into the gas place here and ask them. I don't think that this is going to be particularly cheap or easy. For a start if you take the engine as it is and drop it in you may find that your have problems if you want to LPG it leading to you needing a new ECU chip (it'll drop into limp home mode as the computer will recognise that it has lost control of the engine). I don't know how integrated the gems ECU is with the rest of the vehicle, but you are going to want to take EVERYTHING you can out of the donor, Lee_D mentions keeping manifolds, well - you're going to want to amend your downpipes at least then to get lambda sensors in, there will be a LOT of work in getting the thing going properly. And it is always the little things that eat up money. I believe that Martyn used the front of an old V8 to get a dizzy on and had SU carbs but he can no doubt tell you how got his v8 running, I may well be wrong there. If it were my vehicle then I'd definately fit the 4.0 but junk the gems parts and use an aftermarket controller to control fuel and spark which will get around most of the above issues nicely and if you're good at selling on eBay you might even break even with cost. Regards William MacLeod >> I have no idea (like i said - too new for me!) P38 has prop shafts on wrong side of the vehicle, so the p38 transfer box is no good. Don't know if you can fit an LT230 onto a P38 box, but probably not. > If it's from a P38 then it should be GEMS > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > new ECU chip (it'll drop into limp home mode as the computer will > recognise that it has lost control of the engine). Not if you fit a modern master/slave SGI system, the computer then knows no difference as it thinks you are still on petrol and has direct control over fuelling adjustment for correct lambda. > I don't know how > integrated the gems ECU is with the rest of the vehicle, but you are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of work in getting the thing going properly. And it is always the > little things that eat up money. I think you'd need a substantial part of the harness and the Body Computer as well, to overcome any immobilisation issues within the ecu. > I believe that Martyn used the front of an old V8 to get a dizzy on and > had SU carbs but he can no doubt tell you how got his v8 running, I may [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > will get around most of the above issues nicely and if you're good at > selling on eBay you might even break even with cost. Valid point, but I wouldn't go carbs, you'll lose a lot of mid-range and top-end due to the vastly inferior inlet manifold design, best to fit an early front cover, 3.9 camshaft, 3.9 dizzy, 3.9 hotwire efi system and injection-suitable fuel pump - or a webber 500 and edelbrock manifold. Badger. >>> I have no idea (like i said - too new for me!) > >P38 has prop shafts on wrong side of the vehicle, so the p38 transfer box is >no good. Don't know if you can fit an LT230 onto a P38 box, but probably >not. don't they use the ZF4HP24 or something? if so, I'd expect an earlier Tbox from a 4-speed auto to fit. Or are they not the 4-speed any more? >> If it's from a P38 then it should be GEMS eeek. that's way beyond my level of expertise. SignatureAustin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic face by frightening people in the street. from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton. >>> If it's from a P38 then it should be GEMS > >eeek. > >that's way beyond my level of expertise. I've only just got my head around early 80's bosch K-jet systems! :) >> If it were my vehicle then I'd definately fit the 4.0 but junk the gems >> parts and use an aftermarket controller to control fuel and spark which [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >early front cover, 3.9 camshaft, 3.9 dizzy, 3.9 hotwire efi system and >injection-suitable fuel pump - or a webber 500 and edelbrock manifold. the weber 500 carb and manifold seems very expensive on ebay :( Can anybody offer any links to options for aftermarket control systems? Tom Woods <news@NOPSAMtomwoods.co.uk> uttered summat worrerz funny about: > the weber 500 carb and manifold seems very expensive on ebay :( > > Can anybody offer any links to options for aftermarket control > systems? Use carbs. Once it's running you're only using them as a throttle anyway. The 4.0 will be an improvement over the 3.5 despite the lower grunt the carbs/inlet manifold will give you. After all it's not going to be a hill racer. You will also need a very big auto oil cooler, next time you see grumble take a peek behind the grill. Lee Signaturewww.lrproject.com >Use carbs. Once it's running you're only using them as a throttle anyway. My exact thinking!. MY carb on the car is knackered but does a great job for LPG! >The 4.0 will be an improvement over the 3.5 despite the lower grunt the >carbs/inlet manifold will give you. > >After all it's not going to be a hill racer. How much extra power in terms of numbers would i gain going from a carbed 101 3.5 to a 4.0 bottom end possibly with carbs? >You will also need a very big auto oil cooler, next time you see grumble >take a peek behind the grill. I presume one of them will be stuck on the RaRo now anyhow? (breaking the whole thing) >>You will also need a very big auto oil cooler, next time you see grumble >>take a peek behind the grill. > > I presume one of them will be stuck on the RaRo now anyhow? (breaking > the whole thing) Not seen a P38 one but be prepared to think bigger. Lee D > the weber 500 carb and manifold seems very expensive on ebay :( Add in to that your new camshaft + followers, new gaskets, s/h front end, probably new water pump to fit, s/h alternator(?) new pulleys(?), s/h dizzy, new leads, new rotor arm, new dizzy cap, new coil, (and if you want efi fuel: s/h 3.9 wiring loom, s/h 3.9 ecu, intertia cut off switch) and I think you'll see that this could get expensive unless you happen to have the bits lying around (I have some of them...:-) > Can anybody offer any links to options for aftermarket control > systems? www.megasquirt.info if you can wield a soldering iron and read a circuit diagram. Keep your engine in one piece, keep the power, keep the economy of efi. You'd need a megasquirt 1 squirt'n'spark or a megasquirt 2 setup to control fuel and ignition. Could work with lpg too. Kits start at just under two hundred dollars, I'd expect you could do the whole thing well for round about five hundred (you'd need to find out how the trigger sensing is done on your engine to find out what extra bits you'd need). If you could find someone near by to help you who has already done a V8 then they could go through it with you. I don't doubt in the slightest that it would be the cheapest in the long run, especially at the rate 101s go through juice! But I would recommend you seeing if you could find someone local to help you. Regards William MacLeod >> the weber 500 carb and manifold seems very expensive on ebay :( > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >switch) and I think you'll see that this could get expensive unless you >happen to have the bits lying around (I have some of them...:-) Are any of the bits off my 3.5 suitable? I know i can make my alternator fit at the least! ;) I'm starting to get put off now :( - though i may have the 4.0 and box anyhow and see how hard it could be.. >> Can anybody offer any links to options for aftermarket control >> systems? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >long run, especially at the rate 101s go through juice! But I would >recommend you seeing if you could find someone local to help you. I've looked at megasquirt before. Never read anything about how well it does with LPG. I've got mates who solder stuff for living's and am not adverse to attempting to butcher (that what said mate described my self playstation mod chip soldering job as!) stuff myself if needs must! > Are any of the bits off my 3.5 suitable? I know i can make my > alternator fit at the least! ;) Bits like the cam you ignition you rather have to buy new as they're likely to be worn in the first place. Your dizzy and what not would no doubt be suitable. But if you're going to go down that route then I wouldn't bother. Really, just sell the thing. I have a 3.9 here which used to be complete + a good runner before I sold the ECU and AFM, but I'd have swapped it for your 4.0 + £100 cash a few months ago. You'd win as you'd get an engine of the same capacity with all the bits so you didn't have to mess around and I'd win because I'd get an engine that I could mess around with ;-) Yep, sell it and get a 3.9. Save your effort for the rest of the vehicle. > I'm starting to get put off now :( - though i may have the 4.0 and box > anyhow and see how hard it could be.. > > I've looked at megasquirt before. Never read anything about how well > it does with LPG. There's not that many people have done anything with lpg though there are some. It will do fine with LPG, you can easily add dual spark mapping so your ignition will be perfect on petrol and LPG: http://megasquirt.sourceforge.net/extra/tableswitch.html > I've got mates who solder stuff for living's and am > not adverse to attempting to butcher (that what said mate described my > self playstation mod chip soldering job as!) stuff myself if needs > must! Building the thing is not so much of a problem, it's fairly easy and quick, its the installation and tuning! That's where you'll find someone who's done it before can really help out. Regards William MacLeod >Looks like your Choice is ZF 5 speed stptronicor GM5, the GM5 only appears >to be fitted to the diesels. Is the gear selector on an auto on a cable rather than stuck to the top of the box? That would make my engine cover a lot nicer and mean less linkages all over the place! Tom Woods <news@NOPSAMtomwoods.co.uk> uttered summat worrerz funny about: > Is the gear selector on an auto on a cable rather than stuck to the > top of the box? > That would make my engine cover a lot nicer and mean less linkages all > over the place! Tis on the 4 speed and on Pecys BW66. Not certain about the 5 speed but suspect so or it would rock all over the shop. Lee > Someone i know is breaking a 90's P38 rangerover and I was wondering > about the feasability of fitting its guts into my 101.. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I know Martyn has done something similar with Grumble.. Can you tell > me anything more Martyn? Sorry if this is repeating what has already been said by others, but here's my tuppenceworth. P38 has the prop-shafts on the wrong side, so the P38 box/transfer box is out. 4.0 V8 is either gems (>99) or Motronic (99>) management, either of which would be exceedingly complex to wire in, due to immobilisation issues. (Motronic needs to have a substantial part of the vehicle harness and the BCU computer or it won't work, Gems may be the same) Use the 4.0 engine, fit a 3.9 hotwire efi system complete, including inlet manifold (just don't connect the knock, crank and cam sensors) and harness. Fit an early-type timing cover (you need to replace the cam and followers as well) to allow fitment of a dizzy. Fit a swirl pot to the fuel tank and an efi fuel pump and "Bob's your uncle". I wouldn't fit carbs to an efi engine, a lot of the power increase comes from the efi system, mainly the inlet manifold design. If you must go carb for simplicity, then fit a Webber 500. Use a rangie classic / Disco mk 1 ZF 4 speed auto and transfer box and mod the props to fit. Badger. >Sorry if this is repeating what has already been said by others, but here's >my tuppenceworth. Thanks everybody. So i'm looking at for starters - 5 speed box wont fit, and i'd be better off getting a 4 speed auto. I can cope with this - I'm sure i can ebay the 5 and get a 4.... Remove the bits of the 4.0 engine that make it need the complicated ECU and fit a dissy. I'm happy with this. Sounds like i should break even or so on ebay. Is any of my 3.5 suitable? or do i need the 3.9 bits? >4.0 V8 is either gems (>99) or Motronic (99>) management, either of which >would be exceedingly complex to wire in, due to immobilisation issues. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >well) to allow fitment of a dizzy. Fit a swirl pot to the fuel tank and an >efi fuel pump and "Bob's your uncle". What does a swirl pot do? >I wouldn't fit carbs to an efi engine, a lot of the power increase comes >from the efi system, mainly the inlet manifold design. If you must go carb >for simplicity, then fit a Webber 500. Right. I'm definately going to LPG the truck as i plan to do some miles over the summer. My point was that is it worth sticking with the injection bits if im only using gas. How much more does a gas kit that uses seperate injectors cost? >Use a rangie classic / Disco mk 1 ZF 4 speed auto and transfer box and mod >the props to fit. Got that. Loads on ebay! >Badger. |
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