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Car Forum / Lexus Cars / August 2006Premium vs. Regular Gas.
Are there any luxury cars (Audi, Lexus, Acura, Infinity, BMW, Mersedes, etc.) that run on regular gas (i.e., designed to run just fine on regular 87 gas without problems)? I see that even the cheapest models like Acura TSX and Lexus IS 250 require premium gas, which means expensive maintenance considering the price of gas nowadays... Is the US octane rating different to that in the UK? As far as I'm aware the lowest octane on general sale here is 95 > Are there any luxury cars (Audi, Lexus, Acura, Infinity, BMW, Mersedes, > etc.) that run on regular gas (i.e., designed to run just fine on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > require premium gas, which means expensive maintenance considering the > price of gas nowadays... > Is the US octane rating different to that in the UK? > As far as I'm aware the lowest octane on general sale here is 95 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > require premium gas, which means expensive maintenance considering the > > price of gas nowadays... I specifically asked about luxury cars. Cars like Toyota and Honda run on regular gas just fine. That did'nt answer the Q > > Is the US octane rating different to that in the UK? > > As far as I'm aware the lowest octane on general sale here is 95 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I specifically asked about luxury cars. Cars like Toyota and Honda run > on regular gas just fine. > That did'nt answer the Q The answer is "yes - but". "Yes" because all new cars calling for premium have knock sensors which retard the timing so that no damage will be done by 87 (R+M/2) octane fuel. "But" because the resulting lower fuel economy will most likely more than eradicate any per gallon savings - so using 91 octane may actually be less expensive. Now see Elmo's post for particulars. Tom K. success_ny@yahoo.com quipped: >Are there any luxury cars (Audi, Lexus, Acura, Infinity, BMW, Mersedes, >etc.) that run on regular gas (i.e., designed to run just fine on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >require premium gas, which means expensive maintenance considering the >price of gas nowadays... Gas, IMHO, isn't "maintenance". It's fuel. As for premium vs regular, do a google search on that. The threads are frequent and "spirited". >Are there any luxury cars (Audi, Lexus, Acura, Infinity, BMW, Mersedes, >etc.) that run on regular gas (i.e., designed to run just fine on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >require premium gas, which means expensive maintenance considering the >price of gas nowadays... google this subject, there haec been numerous threads about it > I see that even the cheapest models like Acura TSX and Lexus IS 250 > require premium gas, which means expensive maintenance considering the > price of gas nowadays... Read the owner's manuals. Many of them will say premium is recommended, but that no engine damage will occur if you run as low as 87 octane. At that point, you should run a few tanks of regular and then a few tanks of premium, check out the gas mileage, and figure out how much per mile your fuel costs are on each type of gas. Then run the fuel that gives you the cheaper per-mile cost. That being said, consider: when gas was 59 cents a gallon, extra was 69 cents and premium was 79 cents. That 20 cent/gallon premium was a TON of money, percentage-wise. Fast forward to today. Gas is $2.99/gallon. Extra is $3.09, and premium is $3.19. They've kept the 20 cent spread, which means percentage-wise the extra for 93 octane fuel is much less than it was 20 years ago. It all comes down to your fuel cost per mile. And that's easy to calculate if you give yourself a few tanks of each. > Fast forward to today. Gas is $2.99/gallon. Extra is $3.09, and > premium is $3.19. They've kept the 20 cent spread, which means > percentage-wise the extra for 93 octane fuel is much less than it was 20 > years ago. Usually, but not always the case. I recently spotted a couple of stations in central PA selling 87 octane at $2.85 and 93 at $3.45. It would be nice if the manufacturers would provide figures showing the percentage differences in mpg and hp at 87 and 91 (or 93) octane so that we could actually crunch the numbers. Tom K. > Are there any luxury cars (Audi, Lexus, Acura, Infinity, BMW, Mersedes, > etc.) that run on regular gas (i.e., designed to run just fine on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > require premium gas, which means expensive maintenance considering the > price of gas nowadays... I live in so. cal area commuting 80-100 miles per day. Bought my 2002 GS300 in Dec. 2005 with 73k. Car is now coming up to 90K service. I have been running 89 octane since the recent run up in gas price. Car averages 17mpg with traffic and 21 on a recent Vegas trip. This is right in the wheelhouse of maufactures specs. I think I may get a mile or two at the 90k service. They will replace the timing belt water pump and spark plugs at this service. I've got a 2001 GS300. On the open road on premium (usually Shell) I can get ~27 MPG and on rare occasion, 28 MPG. I live in Texas, so not many hills. -d >> Are there any luxury cars (Audi, Lexus, Acura, Infinity, BMW, Mersedes, >> etc.) that run on regular gas (i.e., designed to run just fine on [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 90k service. They will replace the timing belt water pump and spark plugs > at this service. "dulles" <jf@barada.com> quipped: >I've got a 2001 GS300. On the open road on premium (usually Shell) I can >get ~27 MPG and on rare occasion, 28 MPG. I live in Texas, so not many >hills. >-d ..as compared to what? What you posted is pointless unless you can compare that with your mpg with 87 octane. It's up to you to do the comparison. Here's a data point on MPG with the recommended fuel for this model and year. -d > "dulles" <jf@barada.com> quipped: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ..as compared to what? What you posted is pointless unless you can > compare that with your mpg with 87 octane. "dulles" <jf@barada.com> quipped: >It's up to you to do the comparison. Here's a data point on MPG with the >recommended fuel for this model and year. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> ..as compared to what? What you posted is pointless unless you can >> compare that with your mpg with 87 octane. a data point is only good if there's something to compare it to. Otherwise, it means nothing. It means zero for me to compare *your* vehicle in *your* area with *your* regional mixture of gas with mine. Additionally, your driving habits and road conditions may be vastly different than mine. The comparison is only effective if you tell us what you get with YOUR car on regular gas under the same driving conditions your use premium on. You need to compare apples to apples. I wouldn't spend much time reading useless information (for *you*) then. "Good" is only a relative term for *you*. A data point is only a point. -d > "dulles" <jf@barada.com> quipped: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > You need to compare apples to apples. "dulles" <jf@barada.com> quipped: >I wouldn't spend much time reading useless information (for *you*) then. >"Good" is only a relative term for *you*. A data point is only a point. >-d look..I'm trying to be nice and educate you but it's pretty apparent that you're either too stupid to comprehend what I'm trying to say or I need to get bigger crayons. Either way, never mind. urp! > "dulles" <jf@barada.com> quipped: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Either way, never mind. > Are there any luxury cars (Audi, Lexus, Acura, Infinity, BMW, Mersedes, > etc.) that run on regular gas (i.e., designed to run just fine on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > require premium gas, which means expensive maintenance considering the > price of gas nowadays... While technically not a car, my 2005 Lexus RX330 runs fine on the recommended regular unleaded gas. It was one of the reasons I decided on this versus a BMW X3 If you are having that much trouble about the gas you probably can't really afford the Lexus. Get yourself a Honda. A Lexus is for people that can afford a luxary car. > Are there any luxury cars (Audi, Lexus, Acura, Infinity, BMW, Mersedes, > etc.) that run on regular gas (i.e., designed to run just fine on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > require premium gas, which means expensive maintenance considering the > price of gas nowadays... > If you are having that much trouble about the gas you probably can't really > afford the Lexus. Get yourself a Honda. A Lexus is for people that can > afford a luxary car. Who said he's having problems? He just doesn't want to waste money. In fact, if you want to maximize your car dollar, do buy a Lexus--a used one. Let someone else eat the depreciation that's inherently bad in luxury lines, and you end up with a much better built car for the price of the Accord. And it will depreciate slowly, keeping the value up over time much better than if one bought a new Accord. And then, as I said, you figure out which gas (a) matches the *requirements* laid out in the owner's manual, and (b) gives you the lowest per mile cost. Frankly, more people can and should afford a Lexus than they realize. It's the best way to spend your automotive dollar. > ...if you want to maximize your car dollar, do buy a Lexus--a used > one. Let someone else eat the depreciation that's inherently bad in > luxury lines, and you end up with a much better built car for the price > of the Accord. And it will depreciate slowly, keeping the value up over > time much better than if one bought a new Accord. If I couldn't afford a new Lexus, I would buy a new Camry or Accord. Even cars with great reliability ratings start to have repair problems after a few years. New cars have far fewer problems and are covered under warranty. Also, I just like having a new car. Not someone else's used car. You never know where it's been, who used it, or how. Further, new cars have features old car don't, like navigation, etc. > Even cars with great reliability ratings start to have repair problems > after a few years. "Repair problems"? Or just need repairs? Run the numbers. Repairs are no big deal. If you pay significantly less for the car, you can easily afford the repairs. And you end up spending less on the car plus repairs than on a new car. I have a 94 Lexus. I pay about $750/year in repairs, in addition to oil changes and whatever maintenance it needs. Call it $70/month, even, on average. So what? How does that compare to a car payment? Buy a 4 year old Lexus where the huge depreciation has been eaten up, pay what you'd pay for an Accord, pay your $50 to $70 monthly maintenance costs, and have a car that's far better than any new Accord--better built, better features. > Also, I just like having a new car. Well, that pretty much sums up your life. You like paying that depreciation. > Further, new cars have features old car don't, like navigation, etc. I am in the process of buying an 03 Acura TL Type S with navigation for around $17,500. 40,000 miles. It has huge power, great features that you can't even get on an Accord today, and it costs less than a bottom end Accord today--including whatever maintenance a 40K Acura might need now and down the road. And realistically, I'll have it at least as long as any 06 Accord would last. As an example of features: Honda still, to this day, insists that memory seats are reserved for the Acura line, and are not to be installed on the pedestrian Honda line. Screwy, but there you go. I can pay $28K for an Accord and not get memory seats; on the other hand, I can pay $17.5K for the TL and get memory seats. Thank you for insisting on buying new and paying that depreciation. That's what keeps folks like me from spending stupid amounts of money for an item you spend less than an hour a day with, on average. > > Even cars with great reliability ratings start to have repair problems > > after a few years. > > "Repair problems"? Or just need repairs? Same thing, as far as I'm concerned. > Run the numbers. Repairs are no big deal. If you pay significantly > less for the car, you can easily afford the repairs. And you end up > spending less on the car plus repairs than on a new car. How much are you including as the value of your time to attend to the repairs? Probably nothing. Is that the value you place on your time? And while you're doing the math, throw in something for aggrivation. > I have a 94 Lexus. I pay about $750/year in repairs, in addition to oil > changes and whatever maintenance it needs. Call it $70/month, even, on > average. So what? How does that compare to a car payment? That's $70 a month more than my car payment. > Buy a 4 year old Lexus where the huge depreciation has been eaten up, > pay what you'd pay for an Accord, pay your $50 to $70 monthly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Well, that pretty much sums up your life. You like paying that > depreciation. No, I like driving a new car. I value that more than the cost premium. Everything has a market value. If everyone had the same value judgements, the marketplace would be pretty uniform and boring. > > Further, new cars have features old car don't, like navigation, etc. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > can pay $28K for an Accord and not get memory seats; on the other hand, > I can pay $17.5K for the TL and get memory seats. If that's what makes you happy, go for it. > Thank you for insisting on buying new and paying that depreciation. > That's what keeps folks like me from spending stupid amounts of money > for an item you spend less than an hour a day with, on average. So are you saying that anyone who buys a new Lexus is "stupid?" > > Run the numbers. Repairs are no big deal. If you pay significantly > > less for the car, you can easily afford the repairs. And you end up > > spending less on the car plus repairs than on a new car. > > How much are you including as the value of your time to attend to the > repairs? Probably nothing. No, because my experience on both Honda and Lexus says the *unexpected* and *disabling* repairs are so infrequent as to be non-existent. I drop the car up the street at the local garage on Saturday morning, go about my life, and by 4pm the repairs/maintenance are taken care of. How do you handle the oil changes and maintenance of the new cars you buy? Or don't you bother with that? > > I have a 94 Lexus. I pay about $750/year in repairs, in addition to > oil [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's $70 a month more than my car payment. Ummmm...since I don't have a car payment, let's look at total out of pocket expenses per month. Your car payment is what? Whatever it is, it's that much more than my car payment. And you have maintenance responsibilities, too. > > Thank you for insisting on buying new and paying that depreciation. > > That's what keeps folks like me from spending stupid amounts of money > > for an item you spend less than an hour a day with, on average. > > So are you saying that anyone who buys a new Lexus is "stupid?" Pretty much. They're being stupid about their money. But as you said, that's what makes the world go 'round. > > > Thank you for insisting on buying new and paying that depreciation. > > > That's what keeps folks like me from spending stupid amounts of money [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Pretty much. They're being stupid about their money. I don't understand the argument that if you buy an expensive car, you should expect to pay more for gas. Call me naive, but I don't understand why should all luxury cars run on premium gas. How are the 2 concepts - luxury and premium gas - related? I guess it stems from the fact that they try to put turbo-charged engines in those cars. But Honda Accord V6 produces more power than Mercedes C 230 without requiring premium gas. > > So are you saying that anyone who buys a new Lexus is "stupid?" > > Pretty much. They're being stupid about their money. So, if someone has a net worth of $100 million, you think they would be stupid if they bought a new, rather than used, Lexus? > > > So are you saying that anyone who buys a new Lexus is "stupid?" > > > > Pretty much. They're being stupid about their money. > > So, if someone has a net worth of $100 million, you think they would be > stupid if they bought a new, rather than used, Lexus? Sam Walton drove around in an old pickup truck. Maybe he knew something others don't. Make whatever cause/effect conclusions you'd like. > > > > So are you saying that anyone who buys a new Lexus is "stupid?" > > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Sam Walton drove around in an old pickup truck. The vast majority of people with a net worth of $100 million or more buy new (as opposed to used) vehicles. Are they all stupid? > > Sam Walton drove around in an old pickup truck. > > The vast majority of people with a net worth of $100 million or more buy > new (as opposed to used) vehicles. Are they all stupid? Sam Walton wasn't the vast majority. He was better than that. Are they all stupid? No, because the equation is different for them. However, you might see such a person buying a used car for whatever reason--for the same reasons Sam Walton drove around in an old pickup truck. Does that make him stupid? Are you a member of the $100 million or more club? Is that what you're saying? > > > Sam Walton drove around in an old pickup truck. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Are they all stupid? No, because the equation is different for them. That's exactly my point. Everyone has to make a choice as to whether they would prefer to have the extra $5,000 or a new car. It's a choice based on a variety of factors including the person's net worth. There are no blanket right or wrong answers to this decision as you indicated earlier. > However, you might see such a person buying a used car for whatever > reason--for the same reasons Sam Walton drove around in an old pickup > truck. Does that make him stupid? Of course not. Don't put words in my mouth as a way to deflect attention from the fact the you made the incredibly stupid statement that anyone who buys a new car is "stupid." > Are you a member of the $100 million or more club? Is that what you're > saying? No, I'm just trying to get it through your thick head that everyone who deviates from the world according to Elmo and/or the Elmo way of life is not stupid, that's all. > > However, you might see such a person buying a used car for whatever > > reason--for the same reasons Sam Walton drove around in an old pickup [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > attention from the fact the you made the incredibly stupid statement > that anyone who buys a new car is "stupid." The fact remains, anyone who buys a new car is throwing perfectly good money away. Whether that qualifies as "stupid" in your world, is up to you. "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> quipped: >> > However, you might see such a person buying a used car for whatever >> > reason--for the same reasons Sam Walton drove around in an old pickup [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Whether that qualifies as "stupid" in your world, is up to you. I LIKE people who buy new Lexi. It makes a much bigger market for the rest of us who prefer CPO'd Lexi. Incidentally, I'm not "rich" by any stretch of the imagination, but I am considered in the top 1% upper percentile income bracket (just ask the IRS), and I still prefer to buy a CPO'd Lexus. For *me* anyway, it allows me to own the car I want and still have money left over to buy other things. It allows me more options with the same amount of money. Buying new isn't always best either. IIRC, the CPO'd warranty is actually *better* than the new car warranty. I personally, I'd never, ever buy a NEW house again either. I'll let someone else handle the nightmare of contractors and faulty construction. > > ...you made the incredibly stupid statement > > that anyone who buys a new car is "stupid." > > The fact remains, anyone who buys a new car is throwing perfectly good > money away. You haven't a clue as to how stupid you sound, do you? > > I'm just trying to get it through your thick head that everyone who > > deviates from the world according to Elmo and/or the Elmo way > > of life is not stupid... Apparently, that's not possible. > > The fact remains, anyone who buys a new car is throwing perfectly good > > money away. > > You haven't a clue as to how stupid you sound, do you? To you? Doesn't bother me. I for one am quite glad that a lot of people think they need to be driving a new car around and ditch whatever they're driving once it gets a few years old. As far as I'm concerned, the value aspect doesn't really kick in until the depreciation starts to level off. Let them have their new cars, and that'll just mean more choices for the rest of us. I also wear some old Swiss watches from the 60s and 70s that were very expensive in their day, but are a great value today (although still a bit pricey). >> > Thank you for insisting on buying new and paying that depreciation. >> > That's what keeps folks like me from spending stupid amounts of money [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > But as you said, that's what makes the world go 'round. Value is relative. If you feel you get good value from a new car, that's your business. IF you feel you get good value from a used car, that's your business. Value is not always related to $$. -d > I for one am quite glad that a lot of people think they need to be driving > a new car around and ditch whatever they're driving once it gets a few [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >> But as you said, that's what makes the world go 'round. I don't really see the value in always having to have a new car and going through the buy-sell at a loss-buy again cycle over and over again every few years. To me, it sounds like a response, at some level, to product marketing. That's how car companies make money: by getting you to think that your old car isn't good enough anymore. Those of us who buy used really aren't helping Lexus out all that much. > Value is relative. If you feel you get good value from a new car, that's > your business. IF you feel you get good value from a used car, that's [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>> >>> But as you said, that's what makes the world go 'round. BTW, I buy my cars used. Have a 1993 es 300 with 200k on it and runs like a top. With this many miles, it fits my seat pretty good now. -d >I don't really see the value in always having to have a new car and going >through the buy-sell at a loss-buy again cycle over and over again every [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >>>> >>>> But as you said, that's what makes the world go 'round. david, we are going thru the same decisions right now. we got a price on both a new and used Lexus; they were $5k apart. our thinking was 'pay the extra $5000 and drive a new car' (i believe the used was an '05). i realize the arguments about new car depreciation, etc. but $5000 doesn't seen like a hugh difference. but we haven't yet made up our mind. > ...if you want to maximize your car dollar, do buy a Lexus--a used > one. Let someone else eat the depreciation that's inherently bad in > luxury lines, and you end up with a much better built car for the price > of the Accord. And it will depreciate slowly, keeping the value up over > time much better than if one bought a new Accord. If I couldn't afford a new Lexus, I would buy a new Camry or Accord. Even cars with great reliability ratings start to have repair problems after a few years. New cars have far fewer problems and are covered under warranty. Also, I just like having a new car. Not someone else's used car. You never know where it's been, who used it, or how. Further, new cars have features old car don't, like navigation, etc. > david, > we are going thru the same decisions right now. we got a price on both a [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Further, new cars have features old car don't, like navigation, etc My previous vehicle was a new Ford product (rapid depreciation, not smart). I recently purchased a 2003 ES300 Lexus certified with luxury pkge which still has 1 yr complete warrantee + an additional 2 yrs power train, 58,000 Km (Canada), one owner, always serviced at Lexus, for a good price. This is my 1st luxury used car and I just love it including the fact it is affordable for me without going into serious debt. For me, this feels like a new car without the burden of big debt and initial years depreciation. To each their own. |
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