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Car Forum / Lexus Cars / May 2008RX or BMW X5? Which?
Hi All, new member from Connecticut here. Currently own a BMW 328i, 1996, runs well, I maintained it beautifully. Been thinking about upgrading. Would love a preowned X5, but haven't found one with low miles (minimum is 2006 I will buy). But the gas mileage is starting to concern me now, with premium gas about $4.20/gallon now up here. And not going down anytime soon. How does the RX stack up with mileage? I heard it's built on a Camry chassis, is that right? Any direction you can give me, let me know. Gardis from Connecticut gardis72@gmail.com In article <a495fd47-65cb-4276-91b5-2997b0afde88@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, > Hi All, new member from Connecticut here. Currently own a BMW 328i, > 1996, runs well, I maintained it beautifully. Been thinking about [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > How does the RX stack up with mileage? I heard it's built on a Camry > chassis, is that right? It's a Camry wagon. Until you've experienced a Lexus, you don't know how nice owning a car can be. Yes, the RX is based on the Toyota Camry platform. Lexus is made by Toyota. The RX suspension is kinda harsh IMO, and earlier ones have transmission problems (google RX transmission problems). There are reports that the new 3.5L V6 engine have a problem called "piston slap" probably because of loose production tolerances (no precise piston-cylinder matching), because brand new Lexus on the dealer lots do that too. I think you'll do much better with the BMW X5. IMO, Lexus is quiet, nicely dolled-up with good attention to interior details, but they lack the advanced engineering you'll find in a BMW. In that respect BMW really gives you more for the money. BTW you have to get a Lexus oil change every 5000 miles instead of 10,000-20,000 miles with true performance cars. So what kind of car is that? Check out the newer BMW engines (w/ or w/o twin turbos), these begin to use no throttle plates but instead rely on continuously variable valve timing as you step on the accelerator!! > Hi All, new member from Connecticut here. Currently own a BMW 328i, > 1996, runs well, I maintained it beautifully. Been thinking about [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Gardis from Connecticut > gardi...@gmail.com >Yes, the RX is based on the Toyota Camry platform. Lexus is made by >Toyota. Really? Lexus is affiliated with Toyota? Do you have some kind of inside information, and if so, why haven't you pointed this out to us 600 times before this? Oh, wait, you have... >BTW you have to get a Lexus >oil change every 5000 miles instead of 10,000-20,000 miles with true >performance cars. So what kind of car is that? I'll ask this as simply and directly as possible, though I'm sure you'll ignore me - which car are you referring to that recommends you change the oil every 20,000 miles? Around $3x,xxx out of a list: www.edmunds.com Acura RDX BMW X3 Buick Enclave HUMMER H3 Infiniti EX/FX35 Lincoln MKX Mercury Mountaineer Nissan Murano Volvo XC90 > Hi All, new member from Connecticut here. Currently own a BMW 328i, > 1996, runs well, I maintained it beautifully. Been thinking about [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Gardis from Connecticut > gardi...@gmail.com In article <a495fd47-65cb-4276-91b5-2997b0afde88@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, > Hi All, new member from Connecticut here. Currently own a BMW 328i, > 1996, runs well, I maintained it beautifully. Been thinking about [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Gardis from Connecticut > gardis72@gmail.com My wife and I own an '04 RX 330 and a '08 535i. Her RX has been rock solid reliable and will run fine on regular gas. It gets about 16-17mpg in the city, 20 or so on the road. Someone described the RX's ride as ''harsh'. Compared to the BMW, the ride is soft and compliant. I've not driven an X5, but I'm sure it's like other BMWs. If so, you have to decide if the Lexus feel, quite different, is to your liking. One other thing-- if you get your every 5K service done at the Lexus dealer, you'll be spending a LOT. My local Lexus dealer wants well above $200 for all the folderol they do every 5k. Of course you can take it to Jiffy Lube if you want. The free BMW service is a real advantage. It comes down to this: drive one. If you like it, it'll be a good car for you. If you're a BMW enthusiast, you'll perhaps not enjoy the ride that much.  SignatureSteve In article <Notmyrealaddres-D4C17D.06392507052008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, > One other thing-- if you get your every 5K service done at the Lexus > dealer, you'll be spending a LOT. My local Lexus dealer wants well above > $200 for all the folderol they do every 5k. Of course you can take it to > Jiffy Lube if you want. The free BMW service is a real advantage. <snort> You DO know that that BMW service isn't "free" at all, don't you? >In article ><Notmyrealaddres-D4C17D.06392507052008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ><snort> You DO know that that BMW service isn't "free" at all, don't you? Sure it is. They do it out of the kindness in their hearts. You don't think they'd build it into the purchase price and then tell people it was free, do you? That would be wrong - something only an immoral Lexus "stealership" would do. > In article > <Notmyrealaddres-D4C17D.06392507052008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > <snort> You DO know that that BMW service isn't "free" at all, don't you? Of course it's not free-- I've paid for it in the price of the car. The fact is, though, that ownership of a Lexus requires a further expense after purchase. BMW does not. In article <Notmyrealaddres-58547C.19124408052008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, > > <snort> You DO know that that BMW service isn't "free" at all, don't you? > > Of course it's not free-- I've paid for it in the price of the car. The > fact is, though, that ownership of a Lexus requires a further expense > after purchase. BMW does not. So evaluate the TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP. Jesus. Are people really so dumb as to think that paying up front for something is somehow inherently better than paying for it later? How is "no further expense after purchase" better in any way? Of course, you were the one who said that the service was "free", so you obviously got suckered by the marketing game. Man. What a world. "It's FREE!" > In article > <Notmyrealaddres-58547C.19124408052...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Man. What a world. "It's FREE!" Thank you that was helpful. I thought the RX had a little better gas mileage than that (20's on highway? seems low to me). On my 328i i"m getting 18 around town, and up to 30mpg on straight highway trips. In line 6 cylinder. The x5 is very much heavier and naturally cannot get that kind of gas mileage. Especially the 2007, they went and made them heavier, even. Now with $4.00 gas, I think the consumers are going to demand better mileage. Lexus has to drive like a toyota. Smooth, and cushy, right? the German engineering is very taut. Many people do not like it. In article <fef3a182-4b5f-4441-b2d8-825a66affa92@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, > Lexus has to drive like a toyota. Smooth, and > cushy, right? Mostly. Give it a try, see what you think. >In article ><Notmyrealaddres-58547C.19124408052008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Man. What a world. "It's FREE!" Are you saying that there is no advantage to "prepaying" for service in the cost of the car (assuming that the additional cost is equal to the cost of the service)? Lurfys Maw wrote to Elmo: > Are you saying that there is no advantage to "prepaying" for service > in the cost of the car (assuming that the additional cost is equal to > the cost of the service)? Would you rather have the car company be earning the interest on that money, or be earning it yourself? Signaturesjs >Lurfys Maw wrote to Elmo: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Would you rather have the car company be earning the interest on that >money, or be earning it yourself? OK, factor that in, too. Is it equivalent if the prepaid cost is equal to the unprepaid cost + service - interwst? It's unlikely that most people would actually earn any interest on that money, because they would just spend it on something else. I won't ask you to factor that in, even though it's likely to be greater than the lost interest. > >Jesus. Are people really so dumb as to think that paying up front for > >something is somehow inherently better than paying for it later? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in the cost of the car (assuming that the additional cost is equal to > the cost of the service)? Correct. By definition, you're paying for what THEY think needs to be done to properly maintain the car, and you're paying at THEIR rates. You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for example, while maintaining all warranty coverage. Also, it's a pure marketing gag--they get to define what "maintenance items" means from a marketing standpoint, then the small print taketh away by saying "this item and that item and those other items are consumables, not maintenance items". So you go there for your "free" oil change at 12,000 miles, and end up spending $100 for wiper blades. Yes, overall it's a bad deal for the customer--otherwise they wouldn't market it. It's to the customer's advantage to be in control of all costs at all times. >> >Jesus. Are people really so dumb as to think that paying up front for >> >something is somehow inherently better than paying for it later? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for >example, while maintaining all warranty coverage. Independent service garages are something of a crap shoot and if I have a problem, I can't complain to Lexus or the sales department of the dealer, who wants to sell me my next car. >Also, it's a pure marketing gag--they get to define what "maintenance >items" means from a marketing standpoint, then the small print taketh >away by saying "this item and that item and those other items are >consumables, not maintenance items". So you go there for your "free" >oil change at 12,000 miles, and end up spending $100 for wiper blades. If you aren't smart enough to decide on $100 wiper blades, then probably nothing will work... >Yes, overall it's a bad deal for the customer--otherwise they wouldn't >market it. There's short-range marketing and long-range marketing. >It's to the customer's advantage to be in control of all >costs at all times. There's control and there's control. Your "it ain't free" position leaves out several factors that may be significant to some customers. And when you calculate TCO, you must include the cost of your time. For me, the comprehensive "everything but gas" warrantees are a good value. We own two Lexus cars. For anything but an A-level service (oil change), then send a flatbed truck with a loaner car. They drop off the loaner car and pick up my car. The next day, the bring my car back and pick up the loaner. My total time commitment is less than 30 minutes including the call to schedule it. For the A service, I drive to the service facility. They have a lounge with desks, snacks, and wireless access. I'm there for 2-3 hours and I get some work done. The comprehensive warrantees have another benefits that your "it ain't free" position ignores. 1. Since they aren't getting paid for the repairs, there's no incentive to find things to fix. And since they are going to do any future repairs for "free", there's no incentive to skimp on repairs. 2. These warrantees are ultimately funded by the manufacturer, so they are motivated to make the car reliable. If they break less, then I have to spend less time to deal with the repairs and I am less likely to be without wheels. My father-in-law used to check the grocery store ads and then drive across town to save 10 cents on a can of beans. He was raised in the depression and that shaped his values. He was what my mom used to call "penny wise and pound foolish". I think she might say that about you. ymmv > >You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for > >example, while maintaining all warranty coverage. > > Independent service garages are something of a crap shoot <snort> Yeah, if you just stumble around blindly. Oh, and make sure you understand something: auto dealerships are independent businesses, too. BMW, for example, has little to nothing to do with how the BMW dealer runs his service department. They're a crap shoot just as much as any other independent business. > Your "it ain't free" position leaves out several factors that may be > significant to some customers. And when you calculate TCO, you must > include the cost of your time. How does any of this affect the fact that it ain't free. Period. You're paying for it. Unfortunately, you're forced into paying what the manufacturer wants you to pay, for exactly the services the manufacturer wants to give you. That may or may not suit your needs. Why lock yourself into it? > For me, the comprehensive "everything but gas" warrantees are a good > value. We own two Lexus cars. For anything but an A-level service (oil [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to the service facility. They have a lounge with desks, snacks, and > wireless access. I'm there for 2-3 hours and I get some work done. And you pay $150 for that oil change. Nice. > The comprehensive warrantees have another benefits that your "it ain't > free" position ignores. > > 1. Since they aren't getting paid for the repairs, there's no > incentive to find things to fix. I'm sorry--did you say that the independing dealership isn't getting paid for repairs? Did you really say that? Of COURSE they're getting paid for repairs. Toyota pays them. The dealership isn't doing this out of the goodness of his heart. And there are "normal wear and tear" items that aren't covered by any warranty or maintenance program. Any shop that charges $150 for an oil change has HUGE incentive to find those things. And they know all about them--while chances are extremely good that the customer doesn't, because he never bothered to open any paperwork he got, including the owner's manual. > 2. These warrantees are ultimately funded by the manufacturer, so they > are motivated to make the car reliable. I find it fascinating, then, that you would buy a Lexus and not a Hyundai--with its 10 year warranty. I mean, talk about incentive to make it good. That's MUCH more incentive to make it good. I'd bet the mortgage that Toyota has engineers studying closely on how to build the engine to last the length of the warranty, but not necessarily any longer. That's how Toyota makes money. I buy Toyota and Honda, because they make good cars and good engines. But I have no need to have the dealership be the sole source of support. I don't pay up front, which gives me the flexibility on how to handle things on a case by case basis. That's not penny wise/pound foolish; that's simply good old fashioned common sense. >> >You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for >> >example, while maintaining all warranty coverage. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >do with how the BMW dealer runs his service department. They're a crap >shoot just as much as any other independent business. I'm not sure if you are ignorant or provocative. The car manufacturer has a lot to do with how the dealership is run. They can pull the authorization to sell thier cars and/or make it difficult for them to keep their inventory stocked, etc. They are something of a crap shoot, but I can complain to Lexus, who might do something if I have a legitimate complaint. With Elmo's Transmission & Smog Test garage, I can complain to the state BAR. >> Your "it ain't free" position leaves out several factors that may be >> significant to some customers. And when you calculate TCO, you must >> include the cost of your time. > >How does any of this affect the fact that it ain't free. Period. >You're paying for it. I think you need to read more slowly so that it sinks in. I agreed with you that it ain't free. I was trying to include other factors into the TCO, which you ignored. >Unfortunately, you're forced into paying what the manufacturer wants you >to pay, for exactly the services the manufacturer wants to give you. >That may or may not suit your needs. Why lock yourself into it? Only if the TCO makes sense. For me, the TCO is lower for the Lexus package including dealership service than any other option. It may not be for you. I am not interested in spending my time to find a place that is competent, reliable, and $100 cheaper for an oil change. >> For me, the comprehensive "everything but gas" warrantees are a good >> value. We own two Lexus cars. For anything but an A-level service (oil [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >And you pay $150 for that oil change. All things considered, I would pay at least that much for the oil change at Jiffy Lube, where I would never go anyway. Having ALL my service done at the dealership establishes a relationship that has benefits. I've gotten a few perks along the way. One time they replaced a key for free that had become loose. Another time, they replaced the key battery for free. Another time, they upgraded the GPS database for free. Perhaps the best "freebee" was shortly after we bought my wife's RX 300. For some reason, that model has an external power antenna. It was just a few inches too tall to clear the garage door. She tried to remember to turn the radio off before entering the garage, but kept forgetting. Goind in wasn;t too bad because the antenna tiled back slightly. One time, it was up when she backed out and it got bent and would not retract. I called the service department. TYhey said to bring it by. They spent about 2 hours replacing the entire assembly with a new one and then cutting it down 6" so that it clears the door. No charge. PS: I guess to avoid setting you off, I should add that by "for free", I mean they did not charge me again. ;-) >Nice. I think so. >> The comprehensive warrantees have another benefits that your "it ain't >> free" position ignores. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Of COURSE they're getting paid for repairs. Toyota pays them. The >dealership isn't doing this out of the goodness of his heart. Again, either you aren't listening or are just being provocative. What I meant was that, as you point out, they have already been paid. They aren't going to get paid any more. >And there are "normal wear and tear" items that aren't covered by any >warranty or maintenance program. Any shop that charges $150 for an oil >change has HUGE incentive to find those things. And they know all about >them--while chances are extremely good that the customer doesn't, >because he never bothered to open any paperwork he got, including the >owner's manual. I have owned Lexus for 7-8 years now. The dealership has done 100% of the service. I have never once felt that I was getting charged for unnecessary extras. >> 2. These warrantees are ultimately funded by the manufacturer, so they >> are motivated to make the car reliable. > >I find it fascinating, then, that you would buy a Lexus and not a >Hyundai--with its 10 year warranty. I mean, talk about incentive to >make it good. That's MUCH more incentive to make it good. I don't want to drive a Hyundai, but if I did, the 10 year warranty would be an asset. >I'd bet the mortgage that Toyota has engineers studying closely on how >to build the engine to last the length of the warranty, but not >necessarily any longer. That's how Toyota makes money. Now you're just being juvenile. >I buy Toyota and Honda, because they make good cars and good engines. >But I have no need to have the dealership be the sole source of support. >I don't pay up front, which gives me the flexibility on how to handle >things on a case by case basis. That's not penny wise/pound foolish; >that's simply good old fashioned common sense. What's common sense for one is foolish for another. If you have the time and inclination to take care of that yourself and save a few bucks, go for it. For me, not having to deal with it is worth it. I'm not trying to talk you out of your values. I can't understand why you are peeing on mine. I'm just pointing out that the issue is more complicated than you suggested. I go down to the dealership for my high-priced oil change and the place is packed with other morons like me happily having their cars serviced. I guess the free market system isn't working... ;-) > I think you need to read more slowly so that it sinks in. I agreed > with you that it ain't free. I was trying to include other factors > into the TCO, which you ignored. Not at all. > >And you pay $150 for that oil change. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > replaced the key battery for free. Another time, they upgraded the GPS > database for free. I don't dispute that. I get the same benefits by going to my Honda dealer. I have a 20 year relationship with them, and they acknowledge it. In fact, the same people have been there all along. But I won't lock myself in to going to them. > >> 1. Since they aren't getting paid for the repairs, there's no > >> incentive to find things to fix. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I meant was that, as you point out, they have already been paid. They > aren't going to get paid any more. The dealership hasn't been paid up front by any means. Every time an RO is written and submitted, Toyota pays the bill. You just have no idea how a dealership service department works, do you. Further, they then do have incentive to find other things--because no matter what, they get paid--every time they do work. Whether you pay them or Toyota pays them, it doesn't matter. They are paid AS THEY DO THE WORK. You had best learn how a dealership does business. It's obvious you're getting fleeced. > >> 2. These warrantees are ultimately funded by the manufacturer, so they > >> are motivated to make the car reliable. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't want to drive a Hyundai, but if I did, the 10 year warranty > would be an asset. Why wouldn't you want to drive a Hyundai? After all, the "free" extends far, far longer than with Toyota. > >I'd bet the mortgage that Toyota has engineers studying closely on how > >to build the engine to last the length of the warranty, but not > >necessarily any longer. That's how Toyota makes money. > > Now you're just being juvenile. You dispute the concept of planned obsolesence? > I go down to the dealership for my high-priced oil change and the > place is packed with other morons like me happily having their cars > serviced. I guess the free market system isn't working... ;-) "You've probably noticed that opinion pollsters go out of their way to include as many morons as possible in surveys ... I think it's dangerous to inform morons about what their fellow morons are thinking. It only reinforces their opinions. And the one thing worse than a moron with an opinion is lots of them." -- Scott Adams In other words: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. In the small world of McBrew-jerks and ShagNasty's, there are precisely two possible answers to any question: Theirs, and the wrong one. Please don't try to convince them to think outside their tiny little worlds -- you will scare them, and they will cry. GIga >>> >You can have the same work done elsewhere at a much lower cost, for >>> >example, while maintaining all warranty coverage. [quoted text clipped - 136 lines] > place is packed with other morons like me happily having their cars > serviced. I guess the free market system isn't working... ;-) >In the small world of McBrew-jerks and ShagNasty's, there are precisely two >possible answers to any question: Theirs, and the wrong one. At least I am a member of a very large group! ;-) >Please don't >try to convince them to think outside their tiny little worlds -- you will >scare them, and they will cry. Apparently so. I don't think I have ever said anything so scary that it triggered seven (count 'em) responses. Goodness, I hope he recovers without any permanent damage. ;-) Coincidentally, I just happened to take my LS 400 in for an A-level service (oil change) today. I just got back. The service itself was $180. I arrived at the shop at 10:00 and was on my way home at 11:45. While I waited, I had access to a lounge with large screen TV or one of the computer booths with a desk, a phone, internet access, and a connection to a printer, copier, and fax machine. There was also a bar with coffee, tea, a large bin with pastries and cookies, and a refrigerator with water, juice, and sodas. I told them that one of the tires seemed to be losing air. They found a nail, patched it from the inside (not a plug), and remounted and balanced it for $25. The $180 included all the checks (fluids, hoses, belts) plus they flushed the windshield washer system and replaced the fluid, replaced the windshield wipers (a $100 value according to Elmo), rotated the tires, and washed the car. For me, that beats Jiffy Lube or Elmo's Radiator and Smog Test Garage even if it was free. ymmv >GIga >> [quoted text clipped - 138 lines] >> place is packed with other morons like me happily having their cars >> serviced. I guess the free market system isn't working... ;-) > Coincidentally, I just happened to take my LS 400 in for an A-level > service (oil change) today. I just got back. The service itself was > $180. I arrived at the shop at 10:00 and was on my way home at 11:45. And you think no other dealership could do that? I can do it at my Honda dealership. Frankly, an hour and 45 minutes is WAY overboard for an oil change and some "checks". If they can't do it in half an hour.... Say, what did you say about how it's worth it, because your time is worth something? Oh, and my Honda dealership will change the oil for....let me see.....$32? Something like that. $180, eh? Yes sir, an hour and 45 minutes plus $180. You do know the value of things, don't you. > While I waited, I had access to a lounge with large screen TV or one > of the computer booths with a desk, a phone, internet access, and a > connection to a printer, copier, and fax machine. There was also a bar > with coffee, tea, a large bin with pastries and cookies, and a > refrigerator with water, juice, and sodas. hehehehehe I have to laugh, because my Honda dealer has the same amenities. > The $180 included all the checks (fluids, hoses, belts) plus they > flushed the windshield washer system and replaced the fluid, replaced > the windshield wipers (a $100 value according to Elmo), rotated the > tires, and washed the car. Flushed the windshield washer system? Did they also change the blinker fluid? "All the checks." They mean, while the guy was pouring oil in, he eyeballed to make sure nothing obvious was leaking or ready to break. Gee, my Honda dealer also washes the car as part of the oil change. And yes, I can choose to pay for tire rotation as well. Oil change plus tire rotation is $72. Add in wiper blades, we're up to a whopping, let me see here...eleven bucks per, installed.....$94. And that gets the large screen TV, computer booths, juice/cookies just like you got. What did that other $86 buy you?
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