Car Forum / Lexus Cars / January 2005
Regular Unleaded in a LS430?
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jsd - 21 Aug 2004 09:00 GMT I've never owed a car that required Premium gas. I currently drive a Lexus ES 300, and it takes regular. I want to step up to a LS430, but just don't know if it "needs" premium. I work for a limousine company and our fleet is all Lincoln Town Cars. All we ever put in them is regular, and they work fine. Does anyone use regular in their LS430. Just wondering before I buy.
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 21 Aug 2004 12:36 GMT > I've never owed a car that required Premium gas. I currently drive a > Lexus ES 300, and it takes regular. The manual says use premium, but that regular can be used without damaging the engine. That's what the manual for my 94 says, anyway.
I'd think you could easily go to the dealer and ask to see a manual. I never buy a car without reading the owner's manual, just to see about things like that.
New Owner - 21 Aug 2004 15:25 GMT The Lincoln Town Cars have always used "regular" unleaded. The issue with the LS430 is now you're getting a high performance engine with advanced ignition timing and a higher compression ratio.
Penny-wise and pound foolish; stepping over dollars to pick up dimes. If you cannot afford the small percentage difference in the price of the gasoline, you sure as hell can't afford the car! There's a difference between frugality and stupidity.
and yes, you -can- put 87 octane regular in the tank, but I sure wouldn't and IMO only a schmuck would. The dealer will tell you "only in an emergency". The newer engines can automatically adjust (retard) the ignition timing so you won't experience any damage from spark knock, but engine performace will sure suffer.
>I've never owed a car that required Premium gas. I currently drive a >Lexus ES 300, and it takes regular. I want to step up to a LS430, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Does anyone use regular in their LS430. >Just wondering before I buy. Elmo P. Shagnasty - 21 Aug 2004 16:51 GMT > Penny-wise and pound foolish; stepping over dollars to pick up dimes. If > you cannot afford the small percentage difference in the price of the > gasoline, you sure as hell can't afford the car! There's a difference > between frugality and stupidity. But more importantly, does the manufacturer specify that 87 octane fuel can be used without causing damage to the engine or voiding the warranty?
New Owner - 21 Aug 2004 20:35 GMT >> Penny-wise and pound foolish; stepping over dollars to pick up dimes. If >> you cannot afford the small percentage difference in the price of the >> gasoline, you sure as hell can't afford the car! There's a difference >> between frugality and stupidity.
>But more importantly, does the manufacturer specify that 87 octane fuel >can be used without causing damage to the engine or voiding the warranty? Not in the owner's manual. The owner's manual clearly specifies "Premium".
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 21 Aug 2004 16:52 GMT > and yes, you -can- put 87 octane regular in the tank, but I sure wouldn't > and IMO only a schmuck would. The dealer will tell you "only in an > emergency". The newer engines can automatically adjust (retard) the > ignition timing so you won't experience any damage from spark knock, but > engine performace will sure suffer. Yes.
So it won't damage the car, right?
All that suffers is engine performance, correct?
Therefore, why would only a "schmuck" put regular in if the only difference is a bit of engine performance?
New Owner - 21 Aug 2004 20:38 GMT >> and yes, you -can- put 87 octane regular in the tank, but I sure wouldn't >> and IMO only a schmuck would. The dealer will tell you "only in an >> emergency". The newer engines can automatically adjust (retard) the >> ignition timing so you won't experience any damage from spark knock, but >> engine performace will sure suffer.
>Yes.
>So it won't damage the car, right?
>All that suffers is engine performance, correct?
>Therefore, why would only a "schmuck" put regular in if the only >difference is a bit of engine performance? The owner's manual clearly specifies "premium" and nothing else. The sticker inside that gas door also says "premium".
Why do you suppose that is if it's "ok" to use regular?
I guess I'm from a different school. If I can drop 60 large on a fine ride I can sure as hell afford to fill it up with fine fuel. Fine feathers make a fine bird.
Jerohm - 21 Aug 2004 17:09 GMT > The Lincoln Town Cars have always used "regular" unleaded. The issue with > the LS430 is now you're getting a high performance engine with advanced [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ignition timing so you won't experience any damage from spark knock, but > engine performace will sure suffer. This reply is just ... well, I will be kind. If the car does not exhibit any signs of knocking, you are just fine. MPG may suffer a little.
BobT - 21 Aug 2004 17:40 GMT My father once told me ..."The cheapest thing you put in the car is the gas" .... I agree .... give it what it wants or buy a Camry.
>> The Lincoln Town Cars have always used "regular" unleaded. The issue with >> the LS430 is now you're getting a high performance engine with advanced [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >This reply is just ... well, I will be kind. If the car does not exhibit >any signs of knocking, you are just fine. MPG may suffer a little. Jerohm - 21 Aug 2004 18:34 GMT > My father once told me ..."The cheapest thing you put in the car is > the gas" .... I agree .... give it what it wants or buy a Camry. My microwave says don't put any metal inside... it is easier to make blanket statements than try to explains the details to the masses.
D.D. Palmer - 21 Aug 2004 21:25 GMT I have a better answer than all of you, but it requires a little more work. I put in 1 part 87 octane to 1 part 93 octane...and tilt the mix to get about 91 octane which is what the car requires. I can tell from looking at any point on the gas gauge how many gallons needed to fill up (this took a some time and experimentation). I usually fill at half tank where it needs 11 gallons to fil. I'll put in 6 gallons of 93 octane then the balance of 87 octane. It requires two different credit cards at the pump, too, because most pumps will not work the second time if you use the same credit card...the pump thinks something is wrong. And if you use cash, you have to fill, pay, then fill and pay again (so I don't use cash).
One response here said if you can't afford the fine fuel you can't afford the fine car. My approach is different: It's being value-conscious like this that allows me to afford the fine car!
> I've never owed a car that required Premium gas. I currently drive a > Lexus ES 300, and it takes regular. I want to step up to a LS430, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. > Just wondering before I buy. Top Spin - 24 Aug 2004 14:20 GMT >I have a better answer than all of you, but it requires a little more work. >I put in 1 part 87 octane to 1 part 93 octane...and tilt the mix to get [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >the fine car. My approach is different: It's being value-conscious like this >that allows me to afford the fine car! You are kidding, right?
Let's say premium gas is $0.25 higher than regular. You are saving $0.125/gallon. On a 20-gallon tank, you are saving $2.50. How long do you have to do this before you can afford a more expensive car.
You have to be an engineer -- probably software, right?
Hey, do you also mix half diet and half regular soda because your engine can handle 55 calories but not 110?
My father-in-law used to check the ads in the paper every Saturday morning and then drive clear across town to save 5 cents on a can of beans. We used to kid him about the 10 cents of gas he spent to save the 1, but he was raised in the depression and couldn't do it any other way.
It's a free country.
-- Owner of a 1999 LS400, purchased certified in 2002 and a 2001 RX 300, purchased certified in 2003 For email, use Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
D.D. Palmer - 27 Aug 2004 00:27 GMT I am dead serious.
>>I have a better answer than all of you, but it requires a little more >>work. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > and a 2001 RX 300, purchased certified in 2003 > For email, use Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com Top Spin - 27 Aug 2004 03:19 GMT >I am dead serious. So how much have you saved so far?
>>>I have a better answer than all of you, but it requires a little more >>>work. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> and a 2001 RX 300, purchased certified in 2003 >> For email, use Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com -- Owner of a 1999 LS400, purchased certified in 2002 and a 2001 RX 300, purchased certified in 2003 For email, use Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com
D.D. Palmer - 31 Aug 2004 15:27 GMT Probably only $40-$50.
>>I am dead serious. > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > and a 2001 RX 300, purchased certified in 2003 > For email, use Usenet-20031220 at spamex.com DaViT - 27 Aug 2004 07:45 GMT D.D, where can you buy 93 octane gas?
Long time ago Exxon and Unocal used to have 93 octane (leaded I believe). Not any more.
> I have a better answer than all of you, but it requires a little more work. > I put in 1 part 87 octane to 1 part 93 octane...and tilt the mix to get [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. > > Just wondering before I buy. Stephen Clark - 27 Aug 2004 19:49 GMT Don't know where you guys are, but every gas station in Texas has 93 octane Premium. And 91 octane Mid-Grade is what the professor is trying to formulate. Most have the mid grade, also.
BTW, my wife's RX300 runs fine on 87 octane regular.
D.D., you are just trying *too* hard!
 Signature Stephen Clark 99 Lexus RX300 Houston, Texas USA
> D.D, where can you buy 93 octane gas? > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. > > > Just wondering before I buy. DaViT - 28 Aug 2004 20:23 GMT In the Western states, the octane grades are 87,89, and 91. No 93 everywhere. In Utah, the regular unlead is 2 point lower I believe, but the premium is 91.
> Don't know where you guys are, but every gas station in Texas has 93 octane > Premium. And 91 octane Mid-Grade is what the professor is trying to [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. > > > > Just wondering before I buy. D.D. Palmer - 31 Aug 2004 15:29 GMT Around here, Pittsburgh, it's 87, 89 and 93. Yet the 89 gas is priced halfway between 87 and 93...but is not half the octane difference. So, as I posted, I "create" my own 90-91 octane for a price about halfway between 87 and 93. Yeah, I'm a cheap SOB, but I FEEL better about it!
> In the Western states, the octane grades are 87,89, and 91. No 93 > everywhere. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >> > > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. >> > > > Just wondering before I buy. Carl - 22 Aug 2004 03:27 GMT Every time someone posts a question about octane, a war of wits ensues (and typically, the combatants are unarmed).
The engine will not be damaged by using 87 octane. I drive a 2004 LS430 (my 5th LS400-series car), and it does not mind 87 octane fuel. Maybe I'm a "schmuck" for using regular, but seeing as it makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to the car, the driver, or anyone else on the face of the planet, I figure I'll use the extra money to get a high grade Starbucks.
A few more points ...
The performance will be reduced by an amount so small, that I defy anyone under normal driving conditions, without a dynamometer connected to the car, to tell the difference. My car still kicks most cars butts on the highway, on the streets, and anywhere else they care to challenge. Believe me, 290 horses, or 285 horses really don't make a hill of beans of difference.
You will save approximate 20 cents per gallon or roughly $400 per year if you drive around 800 miles per week. If the $8/week makes a difference to you, then buy the regular. If not, buy the premium. It really really really really doesn't matter.
Your milage will be slightly less if you use regular, but again, so small a difference that it would surely be overcome by one or two lead foot jackrabbit stoplight starts, and the 20 cents/gallon more than makes up for the small difference.
Unless all you're trying to do is create another endless spout of drivel on octane this, and horsepower that, your question has a simple answer. The car does NOT need premium, so do what makes you feel good.
Good night Gracie. Carl
> I've never owed a car that required Premium gas. I currently drive a > Lexus ES 300, and it takes regular. I want to step up to a LS430, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. > Just wondering before I buy. markjen - 22 Aug 2004 03:46 GMT > The performance will be reduced by an amount so small, that I defy anyone > under normal driving conditions, without a dynamometer connected to the car, > to tell the difference. This has been tested (repeatedly). Performance, on average, drops about the same amount you save (15%). If you can't tell the difference when a car makes 15% less power, then yes, probably makes sense to burn regular. But on has to ask: if you're not caring about performance to this degree, why did you bother paying a lot more for a high performance car in the first place? You can save a lot more than 15% gas money driving an Avalon.
- Mark
Carl - 22 Aug 2004 16:56 GMT Tested by who? Under what circumstances? We're not talking about numbers here, we're talking about real world driving experience. I'm simply saying that under normal (whatever that means) driving conditions, I cannot tell any difference between the regular and premium fuel. As I stated in my original e-mail, if you hook up a dynamometer to the car, you probably will easily measure and can report the difference. So what?
BTW -- I don't only buy LS430's for their performance. Yes, it's a factor, but there are a LOT more features to the car than just "GO". If I wanted a "GO" car, I'd buy a Ferrari (which has NO other features other than "GO").
...and the beat goes on ...
Carl
> > The performance will be reduced by an amount so small, that I defy anyone > > under normal driving conditions, without a dynamometer connected to the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > - Mark markjen - 24 Aug 2004 16:49 GMT Like I said Carl, if you can't tell the difference between a 300-hp car and a 265-hp car, go for the regular.
- Mark
L Cramer - 22 Aug 2004 13:04 GMT Carl, well said.
My experience corresponds with yours. Despite several multi-tank tests of one octane gas versus the other (I guess I've got free time), the difference in performance wasn't noticeable. And if there is a difference in gas mileage, it's very small, far less than the 10% price premium for premium gas.
lz
> Every time someone posts a question about octane, a war of wits ensues (and > typically, the combatants are unarmed). [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. > > Just wondering before I buy. DTT - 22 Aug 2004 23:57 GMT Well..if you want to tell the difference between gas grades, go to AZ in August, then park your car under sun all day and hit the traffic at 5:00 PM.
When they get over 30K, all of my car run a hell better with Premium gas in the summer.
The testing was done on new car and probably not under the 110F weather, so they can't tell the difference.
> Carl, well said. > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. > > > Just wondering before I buy. Carl - 23 Aug 2004 13:56 GMT Interesting. You are absolutely correct -- I have no experience with AZ temperatures (I live in the North East, so we have tough winters, but the summers are fairly tame). What kinds of differences do you see between regular and premium when the temp is 110F? Does the car lose power? Stall? Fail to start? Run rough? I'm curious as to why the octane of the fuel would make any difference with a variance in (high) temperature...
Carl
> Well..if you want to tell the difference between gas grades, go to AZ > in August, then park your car under sun all day and hit the traffic at [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. > > > > Just wondering before I buy. Col. Colin Campbell - 23 Aug 2004 18:35 GMT Outdoors temperature should make no difference - the engine warms up to its normal running temp no matter what. It will warm up faster if it is hot outside, but that is all. I drove my LS430 in very hot weather (100) and felt no difference between premium and regular. I did measure a small difference in fuel consumption. On a long drive (East coast to Michigan) I used premium one way and regular the other. There was a 3% difference - regular gave worse economy - which is less than the fuel price difference. This is to expected with ignition retardation. There was also a likely performance hit, but it was small enough not to be apparent without precise measurment.
Colin
> Interesting. You are absolutely correct -- I have no experience with > AZ temperatures (I live in the North East, so we have tough winters, [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] >> > > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. >> > > > Just wondering before I buy. New Owner - 23 Aug 2004 23:49 GMT Something I haven't (yet) seen mentioned is this; Gasoline is gasoline.
Contrary to widespread belief, higher octane ratings are achieved simply through blending additives, not by better or more highly refining. The only gasoline coming from the half-dozen or so refiners is 87 octane regular and is the only "gasoline" being traded on the energy markets. It's also the only gasoline traversing the nation through a network of underground interstate pipelines. Octane and performance "blending" occurs at the distribution hubs, not at the refineries.
In automobiles where "premium" is called for, the manufacturer's specification is usually 91 octane, not the 92 or 93 octane that the oil companies are trying to convince us that our vehicles need.
The mid-grade (usually 89 octane), is simply a marketing ploy to ensnare those drivers who have themselves convinced that "my car runs better on it". Meanwhile the oil companies are laughing all the way to the bank.
Using any fuel with a higher octane rating than that called for by the manufacturer is foolish and wasteful. If your car runs poorly on the "recommended" grade of fuel, then take it to the dealer and get the problem fixed.
>Well..if you want to tell the difference between gas grades, go to AZ >in August, then park your car under sun all day and hit the traffic at [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >> > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. >> > > Just wondering before I buy. DTT - 24 Aug 2004 05:30 GMT Hi New owner, you are dead wrong.
Last year when one of the AZ pipeline from Texas bursted, we have shortage of mid-grade and premium unlead. We could only buy regular gas from CA for almost 2 weeks.
Anyway, there are 3 large fuel tanks at the distribution center. Each one contains different grade of fuel stock. Each gasoline brand will mix their own secret detergent package, but the base stocks (comodity) are all the same.
For the other question, the reason I use Premium is not for gas mileage. There is no different in gas mileage. The car just run rough, make more moise upon accelerate with regular gas when the weather get hot. Even at freeway speed, it can feel it is noisier and rougher.
When i switches to premium... Sweet.
Don't forget that at 110F, the AC generates quite a lot of drag. Also, the air inlet over the asphalt in traffic must be over 120F. The air density is thinner. The exhaust is hotter because the inlet temperature is higher. Go ask the airliner pilot. When the temperature is hotter, the plane needs longer runway for take off.
Car companies are not stupid to specify Premium fuel if it does not need it. It's a disadvantage.
New Owner - 25 Aug 2004 02:20 GMT >Hi New owner, you are dead wrong. About what? There being only one "grade" of gasoline. Nope. There is only 1 grade of gasoline coming out of the refineries, 87 octane regular unleaded. Any/everything else is a blend. Also the gasoline flowing through the big interstate pipelines is 87 octane regular, nothing else. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I work for one of the major interstate pipeline companies in Houston, TX.
>Last year when one of the AZ pipeline from Texas bursted, we have >shortage of mid-grade and premium unlead. We could only buy regular >gas from CA for almost 2 weeks. Mid-grade is most commonly a 50:50 blend of premium and regular. Secondly, the best selling gasoline is regular unleaded, therefore if a pipeline ruptured somewhere there would be a general shortage and so likely the preference would be to sell what there was of it in the market with the highest demand, as regular.
>Anyway, there are 3 large fuel tanks at the distribution center. And very likely 1 is Regular and 1 is Premium. Most likely the 3rd is diesel. Mid grade is most commonly a 50:50 blend of regular and premium. There is no reason to put mid-grade gasoline in storage.
>one contains different grade of fuel stock. Each gasoline brand will >mix their own secret detergent package, but the base stocks (comodity) >are all the same. All the same meaning 87-octane regular unleaded.
Rein - 18 Jan 2005 03:28 GMT >>Hi New owner, you are dead wrong. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >diesel. Mid grade is most commonly a 50:50 blend of regular and premium. >There is no reason to put mid-grade gasoline in storage. No, I think there's one diesel, one regular and one for airplane fuel.
Remove NO-SPAM from email address when replying
Rein - 18 Jan 2005 03:26 GMT >Hi New owner, you are dead wrong. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >When i switches to premium... Sweet. If your cars manual states it can run on 87 octane and it runs rough, it simpy means there is something wrong with your engine and needs to be serviced. Modern engines have a lot of sensors that can easily foul up and give bad readings (or break) Something as simple as a dirty intake temp. sensor can make an engine run bad.
>Don't forget that at 110F, the AC generates quite a lot of drag. Also, >the air inlet over the asphalt in traffic must be over 120F. The air [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Car companies are not stupid to specify Premium fuel if it does not >need it. It's a disadvantage. Remove NO-SPAM from email address when replying
Rein - 18 Jan 2005 03:23 GMT >Well..if you want to tell the difference between gas grades, go to AZ >in August, then park your car under sun all day and hit the traffic at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The testing was done on new car and probably not under the 110F >weather, so they can't tell the difference. I am also curious what exactly you are experiencing. Any car I've had in AZ ran just fine as long as the cooling system was maintained. A good flush every other year keeps it healthy. Ignoring it will give you problems in AZ summers.
>> Carl, well said. >> [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >> > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. >> > > Just wondering before I buy. Remove NO-SPAM from email address when replying
RJM - 23 Aug 2004 21:56 GMT Read the manual that comes with the car. Then read the WARRANTY. Most warranties will be VOIDED if you don't use the fuel (octane) prescribed for your car. If you have engine problems that are in any way related to the fuel system..........you will be on your own. The warranty will not cover it.
> I've never owed a car that required Premium gas. I currently drive a > Lexus ES 300, and it takes regular. I want to step up to a LS430, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. > Just wondering before I buy. Carl - 24 Aug 2004 13:31 GMT That's just plain wrong. How the heck would they know what kind of fuel you put in the car? You really think they're going to extract some fuel from the tank and test it to determine? Yeah, they've got nothing better to do than that.
Carl
> Read the manual that comes with the car. Then read the WARRANTY. Most > warranties will be VOIDED if you don't use the fuel (octane) prescribed [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Does anyone use regular in their LS430. > > Just wondering before I buy. RJM - 25 Aug 2004 00:37 GMT The MB computer that they hook up to your engine everytime you go in for service specifies fuel usage characteristics, including the average octane. It is quite easy for MB to determine the octane of the fuel you have been using.
> That's just plain wrong. How the heck would they know what kind of fuel you > put in the car? You really think they're going to extract some fuel from [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >>>Does anyone use regular in their LS430. >>>Just wondering before I buy.
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