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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / October 2004Ignition or fuel?
I have a problem with the engine heavily backfiring in the exhaust at 5000+ rpm if I put my foot into it, particularly during merging operations on the Interstate. Maybe my foot is blocking the air flow and I should take it out of the exhaust? Anyway, a look below the hood showed a yellow sort of dust on the plug wires, and maybe one connector not quite as well down as possible, but messing around with it did not change a thing. Anyway, I changed the plug wires and spark plugs anyway, even if they were fairly recent. The way it feels, however, is much like the rev limiter feels (burning in the exhaust, suddenly total lack of power.) On the other hand, during normal driving I have an occasional stutter where the wideband oxygen sensor drops down, suggesting (AFAIK) that the fuel is not being burned, hence an ignition problem. Does anybody have seen something like this? It cramps my style if there is a 50/50 chance of the engine refusing to cooperate with what I want to do. Before you know it, I will be ending up driving 53 mph in the left hand lane of every Interstate in the US to avoid having to merge. Leon  SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) Leon I know you have already checked, but by any chance, water has gotten into spark plug well? ~Cissy :-) > The way it feels, however, is much > like the rev limiter feels (burning in the exhaust, suddenly > total lack of power. Check your ground terminals? Any jumpiness or lagging in the tach? SignatureLanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA '94C the alignment page: http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html Hi Leon, You could have a dying coil pack. POPSTOY suggested that the terminals inside the coil pack can get corroded causing bad connections. Pull the wires and look for a white powder inside on the connectors. Water in the gas can cause this kind of problem. It accumulates in the bottom of the fuel filter as well as the bottom of the fuel tank. Sometimes that water can be sucked into the fuel flow at WOT. A alcohol fuel additive can be purchase that allows the water to mix with the gas and be burned without the backfiring. Three feet in the exhaust will certainly result in a yard of backfiring. > I have a problem with the engine heavily backfiring in the exhaust > at 5000+ rpm if I put my foot into it, particularly during merging [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Leon > Water in the gas can cause this kind of problem. It accumulates in the > bottom of the fuel filter as well as the bottom of the fuel tank. Sometimes > that water can be sucked into the fuel flow at WOT. A alcohol fuel additive > can be purchase that allows the water to mix with the gas and be burned > without the backfiring. Are you sure the water is burned after mixing with the gasoline? ;-) Dana > > Water in the gas can cause this kind of problem. It accumulates in the > > bottom of the fuel filter as well as the bottom of the fuel tank. Sometimes [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dana What Dana said. I'd try changing the fuel filter. Chas Hurst >> > Water in the gas can cause this kind of problem. It accumulates in the >> > bottom of the fuel filter as well as the bottom of the fuel tank. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I'd try changing the fuel filter. >Chas Hurst Thanks for all responses. I don't think I am going to mess with the fuel filter, though. I don't play golf. It is obviously more than time that I make an appointment with a shop and have them replace all suspected parts. The fuel additive sounds a good one to try right away. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > What Dana said. > I'd try changing the fuel filter. > Chas Hurst I'd sort of suspect ignition before I'd suspect running out of fuel. Dana >> What Dana said. >> I'd try changing the fuel filter. >> Chas Hurst > >I'd sort of suspect ignition before I'd suspect >running out of fuel. It may be. Should I tell them to test the ignition coil as per the manual, or just replace it to be safe? Anyone know how much the thing costs? Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > >> What Dana said. > >> I'd try changing the fuel filter. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Leon When was the fuel filter last changed? When were ignition parts last changed? Ignition coils cost 10 times more than a fuel filter, that's one reason I recommend changing the filter. Chas Hurst >> >> What Dana said. >> >> I'd try changing the fuel filter. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Ignition coils cost 10 times more than a fuel filter, that's one reason I >recommend changing the filter. It goes in the shop tomorrow and they will most definitely replace the fuel filter (along with timing belt, its tensioners, water pump, power window rollers, drive shaft, valve cover gasket, accessory belts, water hoses, thermostat.) I am not yet sure about replacing the ignition coil, especially since the fuel additive may have solved the problem. Maybe I will just ask them to test it. I expect to be driving to the state of Washington soon, so I would like to minimize potential problems. It will probably already take me much more time than people expect. :)) Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) Hi Leon, When are you going to come to Washington ? If you come up from the South, be sure you stop and see Mt. St Helens. It is still pushing up Lava and it a sight you should not miss. Are you going to be in the Seattle area ? I would like to talk to you and I will take you thru the Musuem of Flight. ( I volunteer there. Bruce RED '91 >When are you going to come to Washington ? As soon as I have read the books on quantum mechanics and solid state physics. I am getting at the end of the first "course" (quantum mechanics I), but that sure must be a killer course from the problems in the book. > If you come up from the >South, be sure you stop and see Mt. St Helens. It is still pushing up >Lava and it a sight you should not miss. Are you going to be in the >Seattle area ? I expect to be at Pacific Northwest Labs. I have not looked up exactly where that is. > I would like to talk to you and I will take you thru the >Musuem of Flight. ( I volunteer there. Sounds nice. I will give you an e-mail when I am in the area. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) Hi Leon, Sounds good. I will be looking forward to getting together with you. Bruce RED '91 > When was the fuel filter last changed? When were ignition parts last > changed? > Ignition coils cost 10 times more than a fuel filter, that's one reason I > recommend changing the filter. If I'm going to experiment on the chance it's water in the fuel system, I'd try a can or two of ethanol-based fuel additive. Here in CA, we get to drink ethanol-dosed fuel all year long, I rarely hear of issues with water in the fuel system now. The biggest problem is for the gasoline vendors to keep the fuel "dry" before selling it. Dana >> When was the fuel filter last changed? When were ignition parts last >> changed? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >fuel system, I'd try a can or two of ethanol-based fuel >additive. Actually, the stuff I put in was methanol based. I forgot the name. A four letter word with ee, IIRC. :) Leon > Here in CA, we get to drink ethanol-dosed fuel >all year long, I rarely hear of issues with water in the >fuel system now. The biggest problem is for the gasoline >vendors to keep the fuel "dry" before selling it. > >Dana SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > Actually, the stuff I put in was methanol based. I forgot > the name. A four letter word with ee, IIRC. :) Isn't "heet" a swear-word in Florida? :-) SignatureLanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA '94C the alignment page: http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html >> Actually, the stuff I put in was methanol based. I forgot >> the name. A four letter word with ee, IIRC. :) > >Isn't "heet" a swear-word in Florida? :-) In modern Florida only when they test the heating system in August. For the rest, we use "feez". Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > >> When was the fuel filter last changed? When were ignition parts last > >> changed? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Leon I use rubbing alchohol. Cost 79 cents a pint at the super market. Methanol can damage fuel injection components. Alchohols prevent the freezing of water in your gas tank. They don't make water mix with gas. Chas Hurst > > Here in CA, we get to drink ethanol-dosed fuel > >all year long, I rarely hear of issues with water in the > >fuel system now. The biggest problem is for the gasoline > >vendors to keep the fuel "dry" before selling it. >> >> When was the fuel filter last changed? When were ignition parts last >> >> changed? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Alchohols prevent the freezing of water in your gas tank. They don't make >water mix with gas. Well, the manufacturer seem to think it does: http://www.goldeagle.com/heet/ See in particular FAQ #1. Leon >Chas Hurst > >> > Here in CA, we get to drink ethanol-dosed fuel >> >all year long, I rarely hear of issues with water in the >> >fuel system now. The biggest problem is for the gasoline >> >vendors to keep the fuel "dry" before selling it. SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > >> >> When was the fuel filter last changed? When were ignition parts last > >> >> changed? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Leon Maybe I'm just dense. Could you repeat, virbatum, the part that states that "HEET" mixes or causes to mix water and gas? > > >> >> When was the fuel filter last changed? When were ignition parts last > > >> >> changed? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Maybe I'm just dense. Could you repeat, virbatum, the part that states that > "HEET" mixes or causes to mix water and gas? HEET changes the molecular composition of water to gasoline, by adding some Cs to the existing Hs and Os. Newly developed HEET2 changes the molecular composition of lead to gold. Look for it soon at a dealer near you! >> >> >> When was the fuel filter last changed? When were ignition parts last >> >> >> changed? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Maybe I'm just dense. Could you repeat, virbatum, the part that states that >"HEET" mixes or causes to mix water and gas? I do not know whether I can do it virbatum, but in the question I quoted it says, >HEET contains special additives and methanol. When HEET is added >to the gas tank, it sinks to the bottom and mixes with any water. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >When the vehicle is started, the additives, methanol, water, and >gasoline are consumed during combustion inside the engine. In other words, they physically mix in going together through the fuel lines. This may not be chemical mixing, but I and they never claimed that. Your claim was: >Alchohols prevent the freezing of water in your gas tank. They don't make >water mix with gas. Leon :) SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > >> Well, the manufacturer seem to think it does: > >> http://www.goldeagle.com/heet/ [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Leon :) I'll stand by my statement. There's nothing in your quote from "HEET" that states water and gas mix, although it is stated that "HEET" keeps water from freezing-which is what I stated. You need a course in reading comprehension. >> >> Well, the manufacturer seem to think it does: >> >> http://www.goldeagle.com/heet/ [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >freezing-which is what I stated. >You need a course in reading comprehension. Maybe it is just that I don't take it virbatum, but figure out what it really means. Leon :) SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) It is correct that the added alcohol will sink to the bottom and mix with the water. All alcohols are "hydrophilic." Alcohols readily absorb water. When alcohol is mixed with water it lowers the freezing temperature of the water and prevents it from freezing and blocking the fuel flow in cold weather. This is not the only benefit from adding an alcohol dryer to the gas tank. As the fuel sloshes around in the tank while driving, the water at the bottom of the tank will often be sucked into the gas line. Some may be trapped by the fuel filter, but some usually makes it into the engine where it can displace the gasoline and cause misfiring. Alcohol is a lower specific gravity than water and will mix more readily with the gasoline. If enough alcohol is present to absorb all the water, the effect is a general distribution of the water through the gas while the mixture is sloshed around. The effect allows the water to be drawn out of the tank without interfering with combustion. Rubbing alcohol is available in many configurations. The cheap stuff is usually a petroleum distillate called isopropyl alcohol and is 70% alcohol and 30% water. This solution with high water content will burn without problems in an alcohol lamp. The water is evaporated as steam into the air. Isopropyl (or propanol) is not the best choice for adding to the gas tank due to it's high water content. It will work as an antifreeze. Ethanol gasoline is sold in many states. It is a mixture of gasoline with 10% to 15% ethanol alcohol. It is unnecessary to add additional alcohol for reasons of "drying" or antifreeze protection to this type of gasoline. >As the fuel sloshes around in the tank while driving, the water at the >bottom of the tank will often be sucked into the gas line. Some may be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >around. The effect allows the water to be drawn out of the tank without >interfering with combustion. In any case, it seems to have solved my problem. Haven't had a hiccup since. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) The water doesn't burn unless you get your foot in it! >> Water in the gas can cause this kind of problem. It accumulates in the >> bottom of the fuel filter as well as the bottom of the fuel tank. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Dana >Hi Leon, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >can be purchase that allows the water to mix with the gas and be burned >without the backfiring. The additive seems to have done the trick. At least I had no more problems taking it out on the Interstate. With a drizzling rain, the ignition is not likely to have improved. Also seems to explain why I had hesitations at road roughness. Thanks! Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) |
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