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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / November 2004

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Please explain wheel size differences.

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Dave Smith - 26 Oct 2004 03:35 GMT
There have been several threads lately about wheel sizes, but I'm a
bit in the dark as to what difference wheel diameter makes.  I seem to
remember hearing that changing wheel diameter doesn't necessarily
change spedometer accuracy.  If that's the case, then the tire
thickness (rim to road) must be less with larger diameter wheels.
Then it would seem to follow that there would be less tire distortion
when cornering, all other things being equal.  Am I on the right
track?  Are there other advantages/disadvantages?  Should I just go
for a ride and not think about it?
chuckk - 26 Oct 2004 04:16 GMT
"Should I just go for a ride and not think about it?"
Yes! Life is too short to worry about the minutiae!

Short sidewalls must be very stiff in comparison to a normal height
sidewall.
Remember that the sidewall has a part in improving the ride as well as
effecting handling.
To me, the current crop of large rim diameters and narrow sidewalls are more
for appearance than any other useful reason. We watches a poor fool try  to
autocross a car with the narrow sidewall tires and large rims. The rims
ground in sharp corners (sparks and all that)
If the tire does not absorb shock, the suspension and shocks/struts are the
next line of defense.

> There have been several threads lately about wheel sizes, but I'm a
> bit in the dark as to what difference wheel diameter makes.  I seem to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> track?  Are there other advantages/disadvantages?  Should I just go
> for a ride and not think about it?
Alan Baker - 26 Oct 2004 04:30 GMT
> "Should I just go for a ride and not think about it?"
> Yes! Life is too short to worry about the minutiae!
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> If the tire does not absorb shock, the suspension and shocks/struts are the
> next line of defense.

I suggest you pay attention to the aspect ratios typical of racing cars
when not limited by regulation...

> > There have been several threads lately about wheel sizes, but I'm a
> > bit in the dark as to what difference wheel diameter makes.  I seem to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004

Signature

Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

Lanny Chambers - 26 Oct 2004 04:20 GMT
> I seem to
> remember hearing that changing wheel diameter doesn't necessarily
> change spedometer accuracy.  If that's the case, then the tire
> thickness (rim to road) must be less with larger diameter wheels.

Correct. All the common Miata sizes have about the same overall tire
diameter: 185/60-14, 195/50-15, etc.--only the size of the hole is
different See the tire calculator in the miata.net Garage, which lets
you compare revs/mile for any two tire sizes.

> Then it would seem to follow that there would be less tire distortion
> when cornering, all other things being equal.

That's one theory. In reality, the inflation pressure, brand, and model
of tire make much more difference to grip than the profile (aspect
ratio). Extremely low ratios (less than 40 or 50) do not protect the
wheels as well from pothole impact damage. In general, larger-diameter
wheels also weigh more, and so do their tires (despite the bigger hole),
which is detrimental to both ride and handling. The sweet spot seems to
be 195/50-15, which also offers a greater choice of tire options than
14" sizes.

Signature

Lanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA
'94C
the alignment page:
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

Mack - 14 Nov 2004 22:33 GMT
I bought my '99 with 205-40-17s, and suffered with them for three years--
terrible ride, acceptable but unremarkable handling and the embarrassment
of being seen driving a car with high "bling"/low function wheels.  I
just now came into some money and could afford to swap to 195/50-15
Heliums by Koenig, and it's like I got a new car.  I'm guessing I've got
about a 20lb saving in unsprung weight at each corner.  As long as you
have a driver's mentality (as opposed to whatever thought process makes
someone buy spinning rims or an Escalade to put them on),there is no
advantage to big rims.  The marginally quicker turn in is offset by the
weight slowing the suspension response and harsher ride.  

Maybe it's because I was starting so far behind the 8-Ball, but MAN I
like these Heliums!

Cheers

> There have been several threads lately about wheel sizes, but I'm a
> bit in the dark as to what difference wheel diameter makes.  I seem to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> track?  Are there other advantages/disadvantages?  Should I just go
> for a ride and not think about it?
Anthony - 15 Nov 2004 17:26 GMT
> I bought my '99 with 205-40-17s, and suffered with them for three years--
> terrible ride, acceptable but unremarkable handling and the embarrassment
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Cheers

You got it.  Bigger rims are useless unless the plus sizing is kept
down to about an inch.  The only benefit of anything bigger than that
is "the look."
Shows you the mentality of anyone driving with rims like that on their
car:  they know nothing about REAL performance driving.  They'll all
drive 90 MPH on the freeway and way too fast elsewhere, but as soon as
anything bad happens like a sudden case of understeer or oversteer
they'll be screwed.  I'm currently searching for an NA Miata, and
every time I see some idiot who's put 17" rims (about the biggest that
can fit) on the poor thing, I usually look elsewhere.  If the person
is ignorant about rims and tires, they've probably been ignorant about
other things as well.  I would consider 15" on an NA Miata, where the
stock rims were 14," but no bigger.

There are rare cases where super big rims are a good idea: when they
weigh less than the stock rims.  Then the thin rubber doesn't flex as
much providing more instant turn-in and steering response.  However,
these are usually true racing rims and cost enormous amounts of money.

~Anthony
Dustin - 15 Nov 2004 23:47 GMT
I am not disagreeing, but why do corvettes and vipers run such large tires?
To keep the Hp down on the ground?  The miata's I have seen at the SCCA
races usually run 14's, but with really wide rims and low profiles.

> > I bought my '99 with 205-40-17s, and suffered with them for three years--
> > terrible ride, acceptable but unremarkable handling and the embarrassment
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> ~Anthony
Lanny Chambers - 16 Nov 2004 00:30 GMT
> I am not disagreeing, but why do corvettes and vipers run such large tires?

Same reason as Ferrari: the factory thinks the owners expect bling-bling
wheels. And they're right--few buyers of these cars know or care about
handling. They bought image, not performance.

FWIW, the first thing a savvy Corvette owner does is lose the heavy
run-flat tires.

Signature

Lanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA
'94C
the alignment page:
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

Dave - 16 Nov 2004 00:38 GMT
>> I am not disagreeing, but why do corvettes and vipers run such large tires?
>
>Same reason as Ferrari: the factory thinks the owners expect bling-bling
>wheels. And they're right--few buyers of these cars know or care about
>handling. They bought image, not performance.

There are a couple of legit reasons for bigger wheels:
Allows bigger brakes (which is sometimes, though extremely rarely
the case).
Allows shorter sidewalls for a given wheel OD which, up to a
point, will give a more responsive ride.  Though likely with
increased harshness.

Now almost everyone mentions the increased weight.  Yes, the wheel
weight will increase, but the tire weight will decrease! [Given we
stay at the same tread width and OD].   And tires weigh as much as
wheels.  So, the overall weight doesn't really have to change
much.

But I agree most of it is just about style.  Big wheels are in.  
My Miata has the stock 16", I'd be as, or more, happy with 15's.

>FWIW, the first thing a savvy Corvette owner does is lose the heavy
>run-flat tires.

I'm with you on that!  Damn this move to run flats and no spares!  
What does Porsche do now, give you a can of fix a flat?
Leon van Dommelen - 16 Nov 2004 01:38 GMT
>>> I am not disagreeing, but why do corvettes and vipers run such large tires?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>weight will increase, but the tire weight will decrease! [Given we
>stay at the same tread width and OD].

A long time ago, Richard Decker posted data showing that this is
typically not true.  I don't have them anymore, but if I look
at the web site of our favorite T1s's, it lists
205/55R15 88V     weight: 18.3   outer diameter: 23.9
205/40ZR17 84WRD  weight: 18.5   outer diameter: 23.5

Moreover, it is somewhat misleading, since the 18.5 lb R17 tire
is the lightest available.  With a 14" wheel, you have the
option of going down to a 15 lb 195/45R14 77V.  In addition to
having a much lighter wheel.  If you are in a situation where
keeping your tires on the road is a consideration, you are out
of luck with a 17" wheel.

Leon

>   And tires weigh as much as
>wheels.  So, the overall weight doesn't really have to change
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>I'm with you on that!  Damn this move to run flats and no spares!  
>What does Porsche do now, give you a can of fix a flat?

Signature

Leon van Dommelen :)    Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
rammm@dommelen.net            http://www.dommelen.net/miata
                 EXIT THE INTERSTATES       (Jamie Jensen)

Dave - 16 Nov 2004 23:18 GMT
>>Now almost everyone mentions the increased weight.  Yes, the wheel
>>weight will increase, but the tire weight will decrease! [Given we
>>stay at the same tread width and OD].

>A long time ago, Richard Decker posted data showing that this is
>typically not true.  I don't have them anymore, but if I look
>at the web site of our favorite T1s's, it lists
>205/55R15 88V     weight: 18.3   outer diameter: 23.9
>205/40ZR17 84WRD  weight: 18.5   outer diameter: 23.5

Damn you for bringing data to the table!  'Course it is only one
data point ... exactly one more than I had :-)

Seems strange though.  I'd expect a shorter sidewall would require
less thickness for a given spring rate and strength, thus lighter.
Maybe something else is happening.  Anyway, most go to wider
wheels and tires which certainly does add more weight.  But even
with all that, I think the rotating mass arguments generally used
on the net are exaggerated.  And maybe the unsprung mass issues?

Be that as it may, I'm still not a fan of big wheels & tires.  
There simply isn't much benefit.  There are some drawbacks
(whether minor or not).  And they cost a ton more.
Leon van Dommelen - 17 Nov 2004 00:54 GMT
>>>Now almost everyone mentions the increased weight.  Yes, the wheel
>>>weight will increase, but the tire weight will decrease! [Given we
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Seems strange though.  I'd expect a shorter sidewall would require
>less thickness for a given spring rate and strength, thus lighter.

I would guess it may have to do with design trade-offs making
the sidewall conform to a flat contact patch in a short distance.
Fatigue jumps to mind.

> Maybe something else is happening.  Anyway, most go to wider
>wheels and tires which certainly does add more weight.  But even
>with all that, I think the rotating mass arguments generally used
>on the net are exaggerated.

The ones I have seen are.  The rotation adds a bit to the effective
mass, but nowhere as dramatic as some claim.

>  And maybe the unsprung mass issues?

That is a real issue to me.  While your wheel is off the ground,
its traction performance is quite poor.  It also reduces driving
comfort.

Leon

>Be that as it may, I'm still not a fan of big wheels & tires.  
>There simply isn't much benefit.  There are some drawbacks
>(whether minor or not).  And they cost a ton more.

Signature

Leon van Dommelen :)    Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
rammm@dommelen.net            http://www.dommelen.net/miata
                 EXIT THE INTERSTATES       (Jamie Jensen)

Lanny Chambers - 17 Nov 2004 03:39 GMT
> I'd expect a shorter sidewall would require
> less thickness for a given spring rate and strength, thus lighter.

I'd expect the sidewall to be much thicker (and thus heavier), to reduce
the odds of bending wheels in potholes. Folks with 35- and 40-series
tires report plenty of bent rims anyway, but I guess it could be even
worse.

They also must be stiff enough not to roll under at all. I recently
heard of a kid with some cheap, flimsy bling tire rolling it under in an
autocross and actually catching the rim on the pavement. Cars have
flipped from that!

Signature

Lanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA
'94C
the alignment page:
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

Bryan - 16 Nov 2004 19:54 GMT
>> And they're right--few buyers of these cars know or care about
> handling. They bought image, not performance.

Yet the Corvette continues to outperform the Miata's handling despite our
lovely car's nimbleness.  Could we possibly be over-exaggerating the wheel
issue here?
Leon van Dommelen - 17 Nov 2004 01:00 GMT
>>> And they're right--few buyers of these cars know or care about
>> handling. They bought image, not performance.
>
>Yet the Corvette continues to outperform the Miata's handling despite our
>lovely car's nimbleness.

By what measures does it outperform the Miata's handling?  "Handling"
does not have an objective definition as far as I know, so I wonder
what this means.

Leon

>  Could we possibly be over-exaggerating the wheel
>issue here?

Signature

Leon van Dommelen :)    Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
rammm@dommelen.net            http://www.dommelen.net/miata
                 EXIT THE INTERSTATES       (Jamie Jensen)

Leon van Dommelen - 16 Nov 2004 01:37 GMT
>I am not disagreeing, but why do corvettes and vipers run such large tires?
>To keep the Hp down on the ground?  The miata's I have seen at the SCCA
>races usually run 14's, but with really wide rims and low profiles.

I thought that was to change the gearing.

>> Mack <mackNOSPAMipobka@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:<Xns95A1941FB229Fmackipobkayahoocom@64.164.98.7>...
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>>
>> ~Anthony

Signature

Leon van Dommelen :)    Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
rammm@dommelen.net            http://www.dommelen.net/miata
                 EXIT THE INTERSTATES       (Jamie Jensen)

JEN LURA - 16 Nov 2004 22:46 GMT
I am not disagreeing, but why do corvettes and vipers run such large tires?

I would suspect they were designed to use them from the start.
Leon van Dommelen - 17 Nov 2004 01:25 GMT
>I am not disagreeing, but why do corvettes and vipers run such large tires?
>
>I would suspect they were designed to use them from the start.

I would think so too.  To accelerate fast in a straight line with
an oversize engine, a major concern is to keep the tires from
slipping.  The first way to squeeze more traction out of rubber
is to increase the contact patch size.  That is mainly determined
by reducing tire pressure.  I would think that the larger patch
would tend to push you towards larger tires.  Something else you
can do is change the patch shape.  Making it wider makes the wheel
locally look flatter, reducing curvature effects, and thus making
the contact patch more effective.  How do you make the patch
wider?  Obviously by making the tire wider.

Ergo, big, heavy tires.  Are those heavy monsters with big,
wide-patch, moment arms going to be nimble?  I would doubt it.

And what is the fun in going fast in a straight line?  Unless
you want to go to jail for it, of course.  :)

Leon

Signature

Leon van Dommelen :)    Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
rammm@dommelen.net            http://www.dommelen.net/miata
                 EXIT THE INTERSTATES       (Jamie Jensen)

Bryan - 17 Nov 2004 04:56 GMT
>>I am not disagreeing, but why do corvettes and vipers run such large
>>tires?
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Leon

Man, you are so biased it's crazy.  I love my Miata to death also, but in no
way has it distorted my view of reality.  There is absolutely no way you can
realistically downplay the Corvette's handling abilities to this extent.
While it is probably true a Miata is much more nimble with it's shorter
wheelbase and smaller size, this performance rarely pays off when compared
with the Vette other than in the tightest autocross formations.  Not to
mention with triple the torque, it's going to take a little more
concentration to take advantage of the Vette's abilities.  Corvettes average
between .89 - .98 lateral g's on the skidpad (Convertible - Z06) while
Miatas register .86 - .92.  While many of us have upgraded our suspension
package, the highest (Miata) ever (officially) recorded was a racing beat
Miata with 1.00 g's which set a record in Car and Driver with a 73.6mph
slalom.  Now I doubt our cars are not quite to this level, a typical miata
pulls a 66.7 mph slalom which is only marginally better than the previous
model Vette's 66.4 mph.  Yeah, yeah what do numbers mean?  Well a Corvette
and Miata are in two different leagues and it's completely unfair to test
them head on, but lets just settle that the Corvette is a fine handling car,
especially for American manufacturers.
Dave - 17 Nov 2004 12:31 GMT
>Corvettes average
>between .89 - .98 lateral g's on the skidpad (Convertible - Z06) while
>Miatas register .86 - .92.
[snip]
???
>pulls a 66.7 mph slalom which is only marginally better than the previous
>model Vette's 66.4 mph.  Yeah, yeah what do numbers mean?  Well a Corvette
>and Miata are in two different leagues and it's completely unfair to test
>them head on, but lets just settle that the Corvette is a fine handling car,
>especially for American manufacturers.

Handling is very subjective.  Some believe that skidpad and slalom
numbers are the be all and end all.  Some think they are at least
indicative, some think meaningless.  Me, I subscribe to skidpad
being almost all about the tire, surface and a stiff (not
necessarily "good" suspension. In that order.

While slalom is at least more related to handling, it is far from
a perfect measure.  I've read many a time that FWD cars
have a slalom advantage, but almost all say RWD has
inherent "handling" advantages.

Handling is more about how the car behaves closer to its limits,
how it communicates that.  And, of course, how high those limits.  

I've read many a review that claimed that Vipers are rather evil
handlers.  This from the mag editors as well as professionals.  
Now in almost all those reviews, it ran the fastest lap times and
put down some of, if not THE, top skidpads and slalom times.

I've read reviews saying the 'Vette is a great handler to cr*p
(the latter from the mags from our Brit friends).  Personally, I
go for lightweight, nimble cars, but I'd never call the 'Vette a
bad handler.  I'm not expert enough nor do I take cars to their
limit, or beyond, enough. [Nor am I saying the Miata is a better
handler].

In sum: very, very subjective.
Lady Chatterly - 22 Nov 2004 05:12 GMT
In article <RwHmd.198u.111@twister.nyroc.rr.com> dm@nospam.com (Dave) wrote:

>Handling is very subjective.  Some believe that skidpad and slalom
>numbers are the be all and end all.  Some think they are at least
>indicative, some think meaningless.  Me, I subscribe to skidpad
>being almost all about the tire, surface and a stiff (not
>necessarily "good" suspension. In that order.

Cynics regard everybody as equally corrupt. Idealists regard everybody
as equally corrupt, except themselves.

>While slalom is at least more related to handling, it is far from
>a perfect measure.  I've read many a time that FWD cars
>have a slalom advantage, but almost all say RWD has
>inherent "handling" advantages.

Say, do you have any psychological problems?

>Handling is more about how the car behaves closer to its limits,
>how it communicates that.  And, of course, how high those limits.

A poor beauty finds more lovers than husbands.

>I've read many a review that claimed that Vipers are rather evil
>handlers.  This from the mag editors as well as professionals.
>Now in almost all those reviews, it ran the fastest lap times and
>put down some of, if not THE, top skidpads and slalom times.

Basic systems for a gravity distortion system allow time travel. They
are:

1. Magnetic housing units for dual microsignularities.
2. Electron injection manifold to alter mass and gravity of
microsingularities.
3. Cooling and x-ray venting system
4. Gravity sensors (VGL system)
5. Main clocks (4 cesium units)
6. Main computer units (3)

>I've read reviews saying the 'Vette is a great handler to cr*p
>(the latter from the mags from our Brit friends).  Personally, I
>go for lightweight, nimble cars, but I'd never call the 'Vette a
>bad handler.  I'm not expert enough nor do I take cars to their
>limit, or beyond, enough. [Nor am I saying the Miata is a better
>handler].

I am sure you are not expert enough nor do you take cars to their
limit.

>In sum: very, very subjective.

The civil war in the United States will start in 2004. I would
describe it as having a Waco type event every month that steadily
gets worse. The conflict will consume everyone in the US by 2012 and
end in 2015 with a very short WWIII.

--
Lady Chatterly

"Lady Chatterly bitch slapped you and you just can't deal with it. I
bet you pull typical Pangborn and go run and hide from her now." --
Aratzio
Leon van Dommelen - 18 Nov 2004 02:02 GMT
>>>I am not disagreeing, but why do corvettes and vipers run such large
>>>tires?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>Man, you are so biased it's crazy.  I love my Miata to death also, but in no
>way has it distorted my view of reality.

Then again, maybe the excessive price of the corvette has?

>  There is absolutely no way you can
>realistically downplay the Corvette's handling abilities to this extent.
>While it is probably true a Miata is much more nimble with it's shorter
>wheelbase and smaller size, this performance rarely pays off

I would call that "handling."  I am completely with Dave that this
is all subjective, but I would not equate "handling" with "performance"
at all.  And I am not looking for "pay off" (proving anything), just
for fun with a good handling car.  I define handling essentially as
"tossability".  Will the car do what you want it to do or do you
have to be patient and let the car do what it needs to do?

> when compared
>with the Vette other than in the tightest autocross formations.

Well, I am very far from winning at autocross, and a Corvette
would not help anything.  Tight or not.  Then again, I do not
really care.

>  Not to
>mention with triple the torque, it's going to take a little more
>concentration to take advantage of the Vette's abilities.

Yes, handling problems because of excessive power.

>  Corvettes average
>between .89 - .98 lateral g's on the skidpad (Convertible - Z06)

0.89 seems very, very poor?  What sort of cheap tires do they put
on this overpriced piece of Detroit junk that is supposed to be
a "sportscar"?

> while
>Miatas register .86 - .92.  While many of us have upgraded our suspension
>package, the highest (Miata) ever (officially) recorded was a racing beat
>Miata with 1.00 g's which set a record in Car and Driver with a 73.6mph
>slalom.

Strange that 1.00 g would be the record, when another Racing
Beat Miata in 2000 did an *average* of 1.03 g?  That Miata
was apparently on street sways and stock springs too because
ride comfort was a consideration.  (Even the Konis were on
full soft, though that should not affect skidpad.) In addition,
it did not have very wide tires either, unlike the S2000 that
it ran against.

http://www.racingbeat.com/four_play.htm

Anyway, as Dave points out, the skidpad is simply a matter of tires,
it has nothing to do with the car (beyond miniscule benefits the
Corvette might conceivably get from a lower cg and stiffer
sway bars.)  It certainly has nothing to do with *handling* in
my book.  Just another yawn number.

>Now I doubt our cars are not quite to this level, a typical miata
>pulls a 66.7 mph slalom which is only marginally better than the previous
>model Vette's 66.4 mph.  Yeah, yeah what do numbers mean?

Nothing to me.  I do not define "handling" as slalom times.

>  Well a Corvette
>and Miata are in two different leagues

Here we agree.  The Corvette is an American muscle car and the Miata is
a Japanese sportscar.  The Corvette is a thrill to drive for a week,
and the Miata is fun all the time.

> and it's completely unfair to test
>them head on,

And unnecessary, according to their design.  What the heck would you
want to test?

> but lets just settle that the Corvette is a fine handling car,
>especially for American manufacturers.

I do not have any experience with American sportscars, so
I trust you here.

Leon

Signature

Leon van Dommelen :)    Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
rammm@dommelen.net            http://www.dommelen.net/miata
                 EXIT THE INTERSTATES       (Jamie Jensen)

josh - 18 Nov 2004 17:14 GMT
Few years back, just around the time I bought my 2000 NB, there was a story
in Road&Track or Car&Driver (can't remember which) where they lined up a
bunch of sports cars and a couple of pro drivers on a road race course and
did a stopwatch comparo.  Idea was to figure out which car was the fastest,
mixing classes and types of automobiles.  Among the contenders were Miata
(of course), Corvette, M3, 911, Elise, S2000, 360 Modena, Viper, etc.  Maybe
there were 10 cars?  The Elise was supposed to be the "ringer" but it didn't
come out on top.  Idea was to allow all of the drivers drive all of the
cars, average their track times and pick the winner.  So it wasn't a
raw-numbers thing as far as lateral grip or slalom time, but had to do with
how easy the car is to drive.

Anyway, Miata finished near the top but not absolutely on top, but did
amazingly well considering it had 1/4 the power and 1/8 the pricetag of some
of the cars in the lineup.

Some of the comments about the Miata from the drivers showed the real point.
 They said while the Miata had lower limits for absolute cornering than,
say, a Viper, they said it was possible to drive the Miata beyond the
cornering limits...  drifting every corner, walking it around corners, etc.
 But that going over the limit in a Viper was such a disaster that you had
to drive under the limits all the time.  So the measured limits did not
correlate to the performance.  Even with a major horsepower and numbers
handicap, Miata performed in the top of the pack because it could be driven
faster around the track, regardless of the limits.

So the ability to drive over the limit, recover, control the car when it's
in a slide, predict the behavior of the car, stability of the car over the
limits, etc., all affects how the car "handles" and also how fast you can
drive it.

For example, I had a VW Jetta GLI 16V with full-blown race suspension (and
street tires) that drove on the street like a go-cart.  It was crisp,
nimble, lightweight, would corner VERY fast, had insanely high cornering
limits, etc.  Really, below the limit, in an entirely different league from
a Miata.  But woe to you if you imbalanced the car in a corner.  Lift the
throttle just a LITTLE BIT inside a corner and you were going to very
rapidly swap ends.  Brake hard on the way into a corner was a sure fire way
into a spin.  You had to throttle through corners and know exactly how and
when to brake, steer, etc.  It took a much higher amount of skill, and more
margin, to drive the car.  After the rod bearing went out on that car, I
bought my 2000 PEP Miata and even with the factory 14" wheels/tires it would
go through any corner faster than my racer-boy 16V.  The reason is because I
could drift controllably around a corner in the Miata, feel it slowly coming
around and bring it in, brake inside a corner, hey, the car's forgiving.
Under the limit, yeah the 16V felt a lot more like a go-cart.  However, in
the end, I guarantee my bone-stock Miata is a faster car in the hands of
most drivers.  Someone specializing in driving front-drive VW's with
enormous amount of roll stiffness in the rear could probably make the 16V go
faster, but that would take really special skill.  Miatas are fun and fast
every day, for any driver.

This is the same thing that made Datsun 240Z's such popular and fun cars for
most people, even though there were certainly faster and more powerful cars
out there, the Z cars dominated on the race track.  Balance, poise, ease of
recovery, and predictability are all very important in a sports car.  In
fact, I'd say these factors are what separate a "true" sports car from a car
that's just a sporty-styled "fast" car.
Leon van Dommelen - 19 Nov 2004 01:57 GMT
>Few years back, just around the time I bought my 2000 NB, there was a story
>in Road&Track or Car&Driver (can't remember which) where they lined up a
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>fact, I'd say these factors are what separate a "true" sports car from a car
>that's just a sporty-styled "fast" car.

This is something I can agree with.  You don't think that article
would be online?  It would be nice to be able to post the link once
in a while when the need arises.  :)

Leon

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Leon van Dommelen :)    Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
rammm@dommelen.net            http://www.dommelen.net/miata
                 EXIT THE INTERSTATES       (Jamie Jensen)

josh - 19 Nov 2004 15:21 GMT
> This is something I can agree with.  You don't think that article
> would be online?  It would be nice to be able to post the link once
> in a while when the need arises.  :)

I looked all over the C/D\R&T web sites and it wasn't there...  oldest they
had was 2002 and I am sure it was either late 2000 or 2001 when the article
came out.  I did a rather extensive web search to see if it was archived
anywhere and found nothing.

BUT--  it sure would be worthwhile to have because it was a unique report in
that they really didn't dwell on the numbers much at all, and it explained
in a lot of ways why even though some cars (such as Miata) don't dominate
all of the number games, they still show up on the "10 best" list year after
year and are enduring classic sports cars.  Most other tests are either too
narrow, focus mostly on numbers/price/etc., or attempt to group like cars
together (Best Roadster, supercar vs. supercar, etc.).  This was really a
cross-section of cars that had maybe 11 cars, had a 4-door sedan in there, a
barely-street-legal racing car, a $20K everyman roadster, a $125K exotic,
big American muscle, you name it.

Maybe someone else is a better web searcher than I am and can find it.  I
know it was R&T or C&D (probably Car and Driver) and it was between about
July of 2000 and July of 2001.  If there was an index of feature articles
from those magazines somewhere for that time period (say, a library?), it
would be easy to locate.
Dave - 19 Nov 2004 23:42 GMT
>I looked all over the C/D\R&T web sites and it wasn't there...  oldest they
>had was 2002 and I am sure it was either late 2000 or 2001 when the article
>came out.  I did a rather extensive web search to see if it was archived
>anywhere and found nothing.

I've been subscribing for most of the last 5-7 years, and I can't
think of the exact issue you described.  One similar was the R&T
"Get a Grip" June '02 feature which the 360 won, followed by
Elise. But they didn't test a Miata, rather they had the FWD Mazda
MP3, and it finished last (though it got many positive comments).

You can check the R&T index library:
http://roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=161

Perusing there, I did find the "best convertibles" article (July
'01), but it doesn't seem a head to head as you describe:

http://roadandtrack.com/article.
asp?section_id=31&article_id=102&page_number=1&preview=

I do recall C&D ~1997 having a "best handling car under $30K"
(Prelude 1st, 318ti, then Miata NA), and a follow-on "best
handling car over $30K" (M3 wins over Viper, Vette, F355, etc,
invited Prelude finished better than mid-pack).

I can't think of one where the Miata went against the big boys
head-to-head.  And I know in lap times it would get clobbered.

But, as I posted before, I do agree with the rest of your points
on subjective handling. Still, if someone gave me my choice of
keys, Modena all the way, baby!
Lady Chatterly - 22 Nov 2004 05:12 GMT
>>I looked all over the C/DR&T web sites and it wasn't there...  oldest they
>>had was 2002 and I am sure it was either late 2000 or 2001 when the article
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Elise. But they didn't test a Miata, rather they had the FWD Mazda
>MP3, and it finished last (though it got many positive comments).

Can you be certain you cannot think of the exact issue they described?

>You can check the R&T index library:
>http://roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=10&article_id=161
>
>Perusing there, I did find the "best convertibles" article (July
>'01), but it doesn't seem a head to head as you describe:

We do have hospitals but there are more family doctors and house calls
as compared to what you are used to. Though there is no real
organized health care. If you get a serious disease, you die.

>http://roadandtrack.com/article.
>asp?section_id=31&article_id=102&page_number=1&preview=
>
>I do rec

There are unusual events in 2012 but they do not cause the world to
end. It is important that they be a surprise. Perhaps you are
familiar with the story of the Red Sea and the Egyptians?

>I can't think of one where the Miata went against the big boys
>head-to-head.  And I know in lap times it would get clobbered.

Why do you wonder if you cannot think of one where the miata went
against the big boys head to head?

>But, as I posted before, I do agree with the rest of your points
>on subjective handling. Still, if someone gave me my choice of
>keys, Modena all the way, baby!

Solar is big. There is thought that a singularity generator could also
be used but most people are against it.

--
Lady Chatterly

"Eliza-type bots cannot correct typos but Lady Chatterly has on
occasion." -- Dr. Zen
Stephen Malbon - 19 Nov 2004 14:21 GMT
> So the ability to drive over the limit, recover, control the car when it's
> in a slide, predict the behavior of the car, stability of the car over the
> limits, etc., all affects how the car "handles" and also how fast you can
> drive it.
So far as I'm concerned all that lot i.e. how the car reacts to the driver's
inputs and how the driver can predict what it's going to do,  amounts to the
*definition* of what a cars handling is. I totally agree that a car which
turns round and bites if you treat the slightest bit ham-fistedly is much
less pleasant to drive than one which is more fogiving and predictable, even
if the absolute limits of grip are lower for the latter vehicle, and
therefore likely to be slower from A to B in the real world.

SteveM
Alex Rodriguez - 30 Nov 2004 21:33 GMT
>I am not disagreeing, but why do corvettes and vipers run such large tires?
>To keep the Hp down on the ground?  The miata's I have seen at the SCCA
>races usually run 14's, but with really wide rims and low profiles.

The bigger cars need bigger brakes.  So you need bigger rims to allow
bigger brakes.  
--------------
Alex
Tom Howlin - 16 Nov 2004 00:56 GMT
>>I bought my '99 with 205-40-17s, and suffered with them for three years--
>>terrible ride, acceptable but unremarkable handling and the embarrassment
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> ~Anthony

Not to mention the cost of tires when the time comes.  Stock 14 and 15"
tires are inexpensive, relatively speaking.  My 4Runner came stock with
17" tires and although they look fine on an SUV, the tire sizing leaves
very few choices in replacement tires and the pricing reflects it!  I'm
finding out every day that my 92 Miata just gets cheaper and cheaper to
maintain, repair, etc..  It may end up being my forever car.

Tom
92 Red
 
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