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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / February 2005

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2000 Miata tire wear, irregular, what to suspect?

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josh - 25 Jan 2005 20:43 GMT
2000 Miata, third set of tires, and I did a "performance" alignment whose
specs I don't recall at the moment, but was reasonably close (close as they
could get) to the recommended specs from Miata.net back in 2001 when I had
it done:

    FRONT

    Caster +4.7 to +5.5 (what ever the maximum attained is)
    Camber -0.6 to -0.8 (this number varies with the caster)
    Toe 1/16" per side, or 1/8" _total toe out_

    REAR

    Caster not applicable, there is no adjustment possible
    Camber -1.1
    Toe 1/16" per side, or 1/8" _total toe in_ or zero

So this third set of tires (which I hate... Falken Ziex 512 185/60-14's at
34psi rear, 35psi front), and after about 10K they wear as follows:

front left, severely worn outside edge, very little wear elsewhere
front right, worn outside edge, not as bad as left
rear both sides, inside edge very worn, and rest of tire about 2x as worn as
front

also, the car of late (last couple of months) has gotten extremely
tail-happy.  just regular corners, like in and out of parking lots, etc.,
send it into throttle oversteer very easily.

and did I mention, I hate these tires?  ultra flexy and other than having
good rain/straight-line grip, bad grip in general.

So I will be looking into some new tires soon and want to get it aligned
again, but need some suggestions as to what is likely causing my tire wear
to be as it is before eating up another set of tires.

Car has ~30k since last alignment... haven't gotten over 20K from any set of
tires yet.  I drive pretty aggressively but basically commute in the car.
chuckk - 25 Jan 2005 22:48 GMT
The last alignment was in 2001. You don't remember the final settings. (Too
bad, since you cannot compare them to where they are now.)
The front outside wear may be nothing more than cornering wear.
Throttle oversteer may be due to the alignment changing.
Inside wear on the rear tires may be alignment or load.

In short, get the car aligned, record the settings before and after.
The factory alignment specs tolerances are too wide. "Preformance"
alignments will make for sensititive steering.  Alignment specs on miata.net
range from sedate to extreme. Your choice.
Tire pressure will have an effect on both handling and wear.

> 2000 Miata, third set of tires, and I did a "performance" alignment whose
> specs I don't recall at the moment, but was reasonably close (close as
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> of tires yet.  I drive pretty aggressively but basically commute in the
> car.
Leon van Dommelen - 26 Jan 2005 00:39 GMT
>2000 Miata, third set of tires, and I did a "performance" alignment whose
>specs I don't recall at the moment, but was reasonably close (close as they
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>     Camber -1.1
>     Toe 1/16" per side, or 1/8" _total toe in_ or zero

Do a new alignment and post the old and new numbers to satisfy
our curiosity.

>So this third set of tires (which I hate... Falken Ziex 512 185/60-14's at
>34psi rear, 35psi front),

What were the wear characteristics on the previous two sets?

> and after about 10K they wear as follows:
>
>front left, severely worn outside edge, very little wear elsewhere
>front right, worn outside edge, not as bad as left

Increase negative camber to take wear off the outside edge?

>rear both sides, inside edge very worn, and rest of tire about 2x as worn as
>front

Decrease toe.  Increase camber if evidence of wear on outside edges.

>also, the car of late (last couple of months) has gotten extremely
>tail-happy.  just regular corners, like in and out of parking lots, etc.,
>send it into throttle oversteer very easily.

Seems easy.  You just told us that the thread areas you drive on
are severely worn.  If you no longer have good rubber on the road,
you do not have good traction.

>and did I mention, I hate these tires?  ultra flexy and other than having
>good rain/straight-line grip,

Interesting in view of the high pressure.

> bad grip in general.

Well, that is already noted in the product reviews on miata.net.

>So I will be looking into some new tires soon and want to get it aligned
>again, but need some suggestions as to what is likely causing my tire wear
>to be as it is before eating up another set of tires.
>
>Car has ~30k since last alignment... haven't gotten over 20K from any set of
>tires yet.  I drive pretty aggressively but basically commute in the car.

Not clear to me why you need the toe then.  Though I believe toe
in at the rear does help stability.  Lannny's alignment may be a
better choice.

Leon

Signature

Leon van Dommelen :)    Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
rammm@dommelen.net            http://www.dommelen.net/miata
                 EXIT THE INTERSTATES       (Jamie Jensen)

chuckk - 26 Jan 2005 03:32 GMT
For better or worse--
As my 99 came off the rack 12/31/04 (180lbs drivers seat) ~69,000mi
Adjusted to more or less center of stock spec.
Fender to axle center distance NOT adjusted, seemed to be within limits of
measurement without exactly locating center of axle and exact spot on fender
to measure from.
15" Toyos T1-S (Whichever it is)   29psi my gauge
Left                       Right
-0.4deg  Camber  -0.3deg   +/- .1deg dither
6.2deg    Caster   6.2deg     6.2 max attainable this car both sides
0.06in     Toe(in)  0.08in     +/- .01 rack dither
11.6deg   SAI      11.8deg
11.2deg  incAngle 11.5deg
Cross camber  -0.1deg       +/- .1 rack dither
Cross Caster     0.0deg           "      "
Cross SAI       -0.2deg           "      "
Total  Toe        0.14in          +/- .02 rack dither

Rear
Left                     Right
-1.0deg  Camber  -0.6deg
0.03in     Toe (in)   0.02in
Cross Camber -0.4deg
Total Toe 0.05in
Thrust Angle 0.01deg

At these settings, there is noticable torque steer when the turbo is at or
above 6psi or so boost.
Perhaps the stock bushings and mounts are a bit soft? I haven't tried
playing with the tailshaft to differential offset (yet)

>>2000 Miata, third set of tires, and I did a "performance" alignment whose
>>specs I don't recall at the moment, but was reasonably close (close as
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Leon
Lanny Chambers - 26 Jan 2005 06:19 GMT
> Rear
> Left                     Right
> -1.0deg  Camber  -0.6deg

Don't do anything until this is fixed.

Signature

Lanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA
'94C
the alignment page:
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

gixer - 26 Jan 2005 11:23 GMT
> At these settings, there is noticable torque steer when the turbo is at or
> above 6psi or so boost.

How the hell do you get Torque Steer on a rear wheel drive car?
You guys getting special rear wheel steering MX-5's in the States?
Or you drifting the car EVERYWHERE?
;)

> For better or worse--
> As my 99 came off the rack 12/31/04 (180lbs drivers seat) ~69,000mi
[quoted text clipped - 99 lines]
>>
>> Leon
josh - 31 Jan 2005 17:17 GMT
> Do a new alignment and post the old and new numbers to satisfy
> our curiosity.

I will soon when I get new tires.

However, I do recall that they could not achieve all of the alignment specs
I wanted (as I posted) because the car was at the limit of adjustability.  I
think mostly they got as much neg. camber as they could which was less than
what I wanted on at least one corner.

>>So this third set of tires (which I hate... Falken Ziex 512 185/60-14's at
>>34psi rear, 35psi front),
>
> What were the wear characteristics on the previous two sets?

Orig. tires were whatever 2K cars came with Yoko's...  wore relatively
evenly but rear wore faster than front obviously.  Second set wore dead even
(Pirelli P7000's I loved!!), rear faster than front.

>>and after about 10K they wear as follows:
>>
>>front left, severely worn outside edge, very little wear elsewhere
>>front right, worn outside edge, not as bad as left
>
> Increase negative camber to take wear off the outside edge?

I think with prev. alignment it was at the limit.  But the alignment could
have drifted.

>>rear both sides, inside edge very worn, and rest of tire about 2x as worn as
>>front
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> are severely worn.  If you no longer have good rubber on the road,
> you do not have good traction.

yep.

>>and did I mention, I hate these tires?  ultra flexy and other than having
>>good rain/straight-line grip,
>
> Interesting in view of the high pressure.

High pressure does not help too much with the flexy/slow/vague feeling.  The
tires will take up to 44psi and I've pumped them that high and it just loses
traction beyond my chosen pressure.  Below ~33 they are very flexy and
basically feels like I'm driving a mini-van.

>>bad grip in general.
>
> Well, that is already noted in the product reviews on miata.net.

Yeah, well the reviews on miata.net were not very uniform when I got these
tires.  Choices are slim for really terrific 14" tires that will last much
more than 10K miles, or cost much less than $100 each, nevermind both, and
really nevermind rain performance.  Next time around I guess I'll give on
one or the other parameter.  For the $36/ea I paid for these tires I didn't
expect much.

> Not clear to me why you need the toe then.  Though I believe toe
> in at the rear does help stability.  Lannny's alignment may be a
> better choice.

That's the main thing I'm tryin to get out of this discussion, what
alignment specs SHOULD I go with?  At $60/ea it's not something I want to
have to go experimenting with all the time.  Basically I'm looking for
go-cart feel from the car as much as possible.  I could care less about
whether it's twitchy on the freeway.  And I need the tires to wear evenly if
I am going to put sticky rubber on there that wears fast.
DH - 31 Jan 2005 21:45 GMT
> That's the main thing I'm tryin to get out of this discussion, what
> alignment specs SHOULD I go with?  At $60/ea it's not something I want to
> have to go experimenting with all the time.  Basically I'm looking for
> go-cart feel from the car as much as possible.  I could care less about
> whether it's twitchy on the freeway.  And I need the tires to wear evenly if
> I am going to put sticky rubber on there that wears fast.

Seems to me that you have conflicting requirements. If all you care about
go-cart "feel," then pumping up the tires will have the biggest effect, and
the alignment will be almost irrelevant. If you want to autocross, use the
special alignmnent, gumball tires, and appropriate (pretty high) pressures.
If you want good performance on the street, and reasonably even wear, use
the stock alignment and pressure, and performance street tires.

Note that until you have driven racing tires on the highway, you might want
to be careful about saying that you don't care about twitchiness. A set of
Yokohama A032R tires will cure you of that theory pretty quickly...
Lanny Chambers - 31 Jan 2005 22:57 GMT
> That's the main thing I'm tryin to get out of this discussion, what
> alignment specs SHOULD I go with?  At $60/ea it's not something I want to
> have to go experimenting with all the time.  Basically I'm looking for
> go-cart feel from the car as much as possible.  I could care less about
> whether it's twitchy on the freeway.  And I need the tires to wear evenly if
> I am going to put sticky rubber on there that wears fast.

Read my alignment page. Don't go to an alignment shop until you
understand it (but feel free to ask questions here). The important
points:

1. For even wear, the alignment must match YOUR driving habits. I offer
suggestions for a starting point, but there's always a terminology
issue: what's "brisk" driving to me may be suicidally fast to you--or
vice versa. I spent about $400 fine-tuning the specs for my own
situation, but if you're lucky it will make you smile the first go-round.

2. Observe the order of adjustments in my article. Both sides must
match, max variation 0.1 degree.

3. If it ain't ballasted, it ain't a precision alignment, because you
don't know how it will change when you sit in the car. But it *will*
change enough to change the basic feel of the car.

4. If the technician gives you any crap about custom specs or excessive
wear, just leave immediately and keep shopping until you find a
competent garage. Life is too short to argue with fools.

Rotate performance tires at every oil change (3000 miles), all-seasons
every other oil change. I got 15k wonderful miles from a set of
195/55-14 T1-Ses, driven pretty hard. At 28 psi, they wore evenly across
the tread, and all hit the wear bars in the same month.

Go-kart feel: you can get that easily from a Miata, though you may soon
decide it was a stupid mistake. All it takes is giant swaybars and stiff
springs/shocks. However, if you actually want good handling, tires and
alignment are the place to start.

Signature

Lanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA
'94C
the alignment page:
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

Leon van Dommelen - 01 Feb 2005 02:06 GMT
>> Do a new alignment and post the old and new numbers to satisfy
>> our curiosity.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>evenly but rear wore faster than front obviously.  Second set wore dead even
>(Pirelli P7000's I loved!!), rear faster than front.

Seem to me your alignment was fine.  If your latest tires float
all over the place, I would just ignore what their wear pattern is.

>>>and after about 10K they wear as follows:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>I think with prev. alignment it was at the limit.  But the alignment could
>have drifted.

Based on the other tires, personally I would guess the problem is with
the junk tires yielding so much their edge is exposed.  In short, if it
were me, I would replace tires, not alignment.

>>>rear both sides, inside edge very worn, and rest of tire about 2x as worn as
>>>front
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>High pressure does not help too much with the flexy/slow/vague feeling.

Actually, I was talking about good straight line grip.  All things
being equal (they usually are not), rubber works better the lower the
pressure.  But on thinking it over, the junk tires probably help on
the straight line since they are flexible enough to completely ignore
the camber of the wheels and meet the surface flat.  So I am no
longer surprised.

>  The
>tires will take up to 44psi and I've pumped them that high and it just loses
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Yeah, well the reviews on miata.net were not very uniform when I got these
>tires.

Be careful with the numbers.  Apparently, Ziex tires with slightly
different numbers are very different, believing the reviews.

>  Choices are slim for really terrific 14" tires that will last much
>more than 10K miles, or cost much less than $100 each, nevermind both, and
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>whether it's twitchy on the freeway.  And I need the tires to wear evenly if
>I am going to put sticky rubber on there that wears fast.

Frankly, I think you are not going to get a satisfactory answer on
the question as posed above.  At least I cannot imagine anyone
being able to analyze the issue and produce the optimal (versus an)
answer.

For what it is worth, my non expert take on it is:

1) You are not going to get any real life time out of performance
  tires.  To go for a "Save the Tires!" alignment with performance
  tires you get the worst of *both* worlds: lousy handling and
  only marginally improved short life span.

2) Getting a *good* performance tire, (not the ones you have now,
  but don't ask me for a recommendation), you need to make a
  decision whether you want handling or performance.

a If you want handling, look at Lanny's page.  I just looked at
  it myself once more, and I am a believer.  They are technically
  sound and agree with my own impressions.  Note that I am *not*
  a precision driver by any means; I am not going to argue about
  a few tenths of a degree.

b If you want long tire life, set camber and toe to zero and drive
  like you grew up in Tallahassee.

You might get a meaningful answer in this group from someone for the
question "What is the best tire and alignment  to get the best street
performance, blast the cost?", or "Can you tell me a tire that lasts
many miles gently commuting, and good rain and straight line grip when
needed in an emergency?" but not on "Can you give me alignments and
performance tires that produce incredible grip while lasting a
long time?"  Any good answer to the last question is *equally*
bad, since what you gain on one part, you give up on the other part.

Leon

Signature

Leon van Dommelen :)    Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .)
rammm@dommelen.net            http://www.dommelen.net/miata
                 EXIT THE INTERSTATES       (Jamie Jensen)

josh - 01 Feb 2005 21:16 GMT
> You might get a meaningful answer in this group from someone for the
> question "What is the best tire and alignment  to get the best street
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> long time?"  Any good answer to the last question is *equally*
> bad, since what you gain on one part, you give up on the other part.

Good points.

FWIW I can heartily recommend these Falken Ziex tires for the tire part of
your second rhetorical question...  lasts many miles gently commuting, good
rain and straight line grip when needed in an emergency.

Really the car was the way I wanted it with the Pirelli P7000's at 35psi
front and 34psi rear and the alignment I had done when it was new.
Unfortunately those tires are not available any longer and it seems decent
tires are hard to find in size to fit 14" Miata wheels any more.

So I'm inclined to believe the advice that the tire wear pattern is
irrelevant indicator of alignment.  However I will plan to read up (again)
Lanny's page and have it re-aligned again when I get new tires just for
known-quantity sake.

I still haven't finalized my new tire choice but I'm leaning towards Falken
Azenis 195/60-14's or Toyo T1-S 195/55-14.  I'm presuming I can get the kind
of fun feel I want from the car with either of these tires, might get more
miles out of the Toyos but might get more absolute grip from the Azenis...
Anyone care to comment?

Thanks-
Lanny Chambers - 02 Feb 2005 03:30 GMT
> So I'm inclined to believe the advice that the tire wear pattern is
> irrelevant indicator of alignment.

Not exactly. Tire wear patterns are very good indicators of too much
toe, or of camber settings not appropriate for driving style. Aggressive
cornering needs large negative camber.

> I still haven't finalized my new tire choice but I'm leaning towards Falken
> Azenis 195/60-14's or Toyo T1-S 195/55-14.  I'm presuming I can get the kind
> of fun feel I want from the car with either of these tires, might get more
> miles out of the Toyos but might get more absolute grip from the Azenis...

That last part is true. The Azenis is very stiff (also noisy and heavy),
and steering input translates instantly into directional change. The
Toyo is much softer and one of the lightest tires available, with a
little lag between turn in and bite, which most drivers adjust to and
stop noticing in the first 30 minutes (but which some drivers hate and
never get past). The Azenis feels like a crude but thrilling amusement
park ride; the sophisticated Toyo rewards anticipation and smoothness,
and delivers an unbelievably-silky ride. In 14" sizes, the Toyo costs
about 60% more, but will last twice as long (and avoid half the
mounting/balancing charges). The Azenis is a terrific autocross tire,
but I hear that it tends to melt in track use.

The Azenis is an axe, the Toyo is a scalpel. Either will raise the
limits of a Miata way past what you can use prudently on the street. The
Toyo will also do it in the rain.

Signature

Lanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA
'94C
the alignment page:
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

josh - 02 Feb 2005 15:10 GMT
>>I still haven't finalized my new tire choice but I'm leaning towards Falken
>>Azenis 195/60-14's or Toyo T1-S 195/55-14.  I'm presuming I can get the kind
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> stop noticing in the first 30 minutes (but which some drivers hate and
> never get past).

That "little lag between turn in and bite" is exactly what I can't stand the
most about my current tires.

So...  do you have any experience with the Pirelli P7000s on a Miata
(185/60-14)?  They were quick enough response for me.  The OE Yokos were not.

When they first put on these Ziex tires I have, I thought they had forgotten
to tighten the rear lug nuts.  That's how bad it is.  I once had a 240Z with
completely blown shocks in the rear.  It felt just like these tires make my
Miata feel.

> The Azenis feels like a crude but thrilling amusement
> park ride; the sophisticated Toyo rewards anticipation and smoothness,
> and delivers an unbelievably-silky ride.

From this description, it sounds like the Azenis is more what I'm looking
for.  I kind of want the thrilling amusement park ride.  Is there a tire
that's in between?  "silky ride" does not sound like what I'm after.

> In 14" sizes, the Toyo costs
> about 60% more, but will last twice as long (and avoid half the
> mounting/balancing charges). The Azenis is a terrific autocross tire,
> but I hear that it tends to melt in track use.

I'm not racing.  Just trying to perk up a commute.

> The Azenis is an axe, the Toyo is a scalpel. Either will raise the
> limits of a Miata way past what you can use prudently on the street. The
> Toyo will also do it in the rain.

You mention this about rain.  Rain performance on the Azenis gets very mixed
reviews.  Some people seem to say they're useless in rain, others say
they're great in rain.  I have heard they're useless with standing water.
This mixed review on rain performance is precisely why I did not buy Azenis
tires instead of the Ziex I have now.  Do you have direct experience with
rain perfomance of Azenis tires on a Miata?  I don't need a tire that will
deliver its top performance in the rain, since (other than the past couple
of months) it only rains infrequently in Austin.  But I do need a tire that
I can safely drive in the rain.  The main thing that drove me from the
Azenis was the frequent note that it's incapable of handling standing water,
and I HAVE to make it through a low-water crossing on a regular basis (once
a week or so) and when it does rain in Austin, we get a lot of "ponding" on
the roads so being able to drive (carefully) through standing water is an
absolute MUST and that's why I'm not driving on Azenis tires at present.

So is there a tire that's in between?  More amusement-park than the Toyo,
less hydrophobic than the Azenis?  Or are these fears about the Azenis a
myth, or only an issue on FWD cars (seems the reviews of bad rain traction
seem to also relate mostly to FWD cars...)?

Dang this has turned into a tire selection query.  But I have resolved to
have the car realigned when I get tires, using your specs as a starting
point and tuning the toe myself as you suggest on your alignment page.  So
hopefully soon alignment will be a non-issue.
Lanny Chambers - 02 Feb 2005 15:45 GMT
> That "little lag between turn in and bite" is exactly what I can't stand the
> most about my current tires.

The Toyo lag isn't the same thing--it's not a mushy feel. They
definitely bite, with a tenacity the Ziex cannot approach. I'm not sure
what's actually happening, but it feels like a small amount of slack
being taken up in the sidewall (I think it's really the tread belt). If
you turn in smoothly and progressively, and a little early, you'll
probably not notice any lag.

Don't underestimate the advantages of a smooth ride--the T1-S soaks up
tar strips that cause cowl shake and rattles with other tires. They also
maintain amazing grip on loose or broken surfaces, like gravel, sand or
chunking asphalt.

> You mention this about rain.  Rain performance on the Azenis gets very mixed
> reviews.  Some people seem to say they're useless in rain, others say
> they're great in rain.

I have never driven the Azenis in the wet in a Miata, though the track
was damp when I did the Rev It Up thing in a 6. I expect they'll stick
very well until the water is deeper than the tread groove (only 8/32" on
a new Azenis), but will plane readily at higher speeds or more water.
You should be fine as long as your water crossings are slow (25 mph?)
and cautious.

OTOH, the T1-S sticks so well it can be made to squeal on a wet road.

Join your local Miata club and beg rides in cars with each tire. These
are two radically different solutions to similar problems, and each
makes its own compromises. Decide for yourself which is best for you.

Signature

Lanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA
'94C
the alignment page:
http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html

 
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