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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / July 2005timing belt change needed?
My '91 Miata has about 29K real miles on the odometer and has never had the timing belt changed. Should the belt be changed, or should it still be good for 60K, despite its age? i had also a low milages 72.000 KM and had it replaced 2 years ago. recomendations are 100.000 KM or 10yrs. > My '91 Miata has about 29K real miles on the odometer and has never had > the timing belt changed. Should the belt be changed, or should it still [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- ok, 60,000 miles or ten years... but i have a '95 with 100,000 and no records or memory of the previous owner having changed the timing belt though she owned it since 30,000... so is there an easy way to check it? some cars have peep holes for inspection for instance. of course i would rather wait until it hits 120,000 but perhaps i should have it done to be safe. all comments welcome and appreciated. thank you! ps. garage recommendations welcome for the greater metro nyc area appreciated. >i had also a low milages 72.000 KM and had it replaced 2 years ago. > recomendations are 100.000 KM or 10yrs. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption > =---- > ok, 60,000 miles or ten years... but i have a '95 with 100,000 and no > records or memory of the previous owner having changed the timing belt [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ps. garage recommendations welcome for the greater metro nyc area > appreciated. There is no easy way to check it that I know of. I have heard of people pulling 100K timing belts off that looked like they had plenty of life in them, and I have also heard of 60K belts that were already showing cracks. At 10 years and 100K miles, your's will definitely have some wear, but it could also easily make it to 120,000, or even 220,000, as I saw a Toyota Camry do one time. By the time that Camry died, almost everything had been replaced except for the engine & timing belt. Of course, your belt could also easily break during this time as well. FWIW, I planned to replace the belt on my last miata at 100K miles before it was totaled. I have heard of very few timing belts going out before then. My main concern was having it go out on a long-distance trip. Here in Austin I can either replace it myself or we have an excellent shop that specializes in miatas and charges very reasonable rates. Out on the road we are at the mercy of whatever shop is nearby when the car breaks down. pat Thank you for your insight. If I were to read between the lines I suppose you are saying it is entirely possible and highly likely that it was never replaced and essentially impossible to tell by visual inspection if it had or had not been done. Sounds like I should make this a priority over cosmetic upgrades that I was considering. Thanks again. >> ok, 60,000 miles or ten years... but i have a '95 with 100,000 and no >> records or memory of the previous owner having changed the timing belt [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > pat > Thank you for your insight. > If I were to read between the lines I suppose you are saying it is entirely > possible and highly likely that it was never replaced and essentially > impossible to tell by visual inspection if it had or had not been done. yes, if no service records were kept that mention a replacement, I would assume that it is the original belt. > Sounds like I should make this a priority over cosmetic upgrades that I was > considering. That's probably more practical, but imo, a broken-down miata with a racing beat nose will at least look better than a broken-down miata with the stock nose. :-) > Thanks again. No problem and good luck on the work. It is not a really hard job to do, but mechanics tend to charge a lot for it so it can be good to shop around since any competent mechanic can do it. You will probably save some money by buying the parts first from Trussville or Mazda South. It would also be a good idea to replace the water pump at this time, a friend of mine had her timing belt replaced about a year ago at 100K+ miles and they decided to reuse the water pump because it looked ok. That water pump just started to go out and it would have been much better to spend $75.00 or so for a new one at that time than buying it now and paying for the labor again. pat > Sounds like I should make this a priority over cosmetic upgrades that I was > considering. When you buy a used car, it's a good practice to make sure all the maintenance is up to date--a "baseline" for future maintenance. In addition to the timing belt, change all the fluids and both fuel filters, plus the air filter, spark plugs, and plugwires. While you're in there, clean all the chassis and engine ground points. And Pat is right on target about the water pump. I skipped it at 60k, and it started leaking at 114k. Replace the TB idler and tensioner pulleys, too.  SignatureLanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA '94C the alignment page: http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html >> Sounds like I should make this a priority over cosmetic upgrades >> that I was considering. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 60k, and it started leaking at 114k. Replace the TB idler and > tensioner pulleys, too. According to miata.net the following parts should be replaced: Timing Belt, Valve Cover Gasket, Front Crankshaft Seal, Accessory Belts (they need to be removed anyway, so it can't hurt to replace them now instead of waiting until they break), Anti-Freeze, (You need to drain it anyway, so you might as well do it now.), Woodruff Key, Camshaft seals, Water pump. I agree the idler and tensioner pulleys should be replaced also. A word about the camshaft seals, you don't need to replace them but they're very likely to begin leaking a few miles after the timing belt is replaced as mine are doing now. If they'd been replaced with the timing belt I'd be waaaaaaaaay ahead financially. Notice almost all the parts recommended are going to be free of labor since you're going to be in there anyway. You can bet when I replace my leaking camshaft seals the almost new timing belt, water pump and accessory belts are going into the trash, I'm NOT GOING TO DO THIS AGAIN! There's no possible way I can afford to do this so it's even more likely I can't afford to do it over, right? Damn, I'd like to find the moron who replaced my timing belt w/o replacing seals.... I have a couple of words I'd like to say to him. >>> Sounds like I should make this a priority over cosmetic upgrades >>> that I was considering. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >they're very likely to begin leaking a few miles after the timing belt >is replaced as mine are doing now. Why should the camshaft seals start leaking because you replaced the belt? >>A word about the camshaft seals, you don't need to replace them >>but they're very likely to begin leaking a few miles after the >>timing belt is replaced as mine are doing now. > > Why should the camshaft seals start leaking because you replaced > the belt? For the same reason you'll have a flat tire if you leave the jack home, Murphy's Law. Since you'll have to repeat all the labor of changing the timing belt in order to replace them of course they'll start leaking if you don't change them the first time. BTW, If you do change them, they'll be in perfect condition and could have gone a million miles w/o leaking, that's also due to Murphy's Law. >>> Sounds like I should make this a priority over cosmetic upgrades >>> that I was considering. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Damn, I'd like to find the moron who replaced my timing belt w/o > replacing seals.... I have a couple of words I'd like to say to him. Is the woodruff key also know as the timing tensioner spring? Also, is replacing the timing belt tensioner pulley recommended/necessary? This is for a '95 Tripple Black. Thanks. > Is the woodruff key also know as the timing tensioner spring? No, it's the key that keeps the crankshaft sprocket from turning on the crank shaft. Sometimes they tend to wear so replacement will keep things tight. > Also, is replacing the timing belt tensioner pulley > recommended/necessary? This is for a '95 Tripple Black. It can't hurt but I'd check it very carefully and then decide. Take a look here: http://www.miata.net/garage/timingbelt.html Be sure to scroll down to the bottom so you read the whole thing, then at the top click on the "additional photos" link, you'll see the Woodruff key sticking out in the pic of the crankshaft sprocket after removal of the pulley. > > Sounds like I should make this a priority over cosmetic upgrades that I was > > considering. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and it started leaking at 114k. Replace the TB idler and tensioner > pulleys, too. My Mazda dealer recommended against an automatic water pump change. They preferred to inspect the existing pump and decide on that basis. I was completely prepared to pay for a new pump and said so. I don't know why they would follow this policy if it wasn't sound I know, I know - they're hoping for a bigger repair bill later. Except I don't believe that. A few examples of pumps failing shortly after a belt change doesn't prove anything. In your example, you were practically due for a new belt anyway. > My Mazda dealer recommended against an automatic water pump > change. They preferred to inspect the existing pump and decide on > that basis. Bad idea. In 50 years of fooling with cars professionally and as a hobbyist, I've never seen a water pump that looked any different before failing. A brand new pump looks exactly like an old one the day before it starts "weeping" and once they do begin to weep, the life span is usually only days. > I was completely prepared to pay for a new pump and > said so. I don't know why they would follow this policy if it > wasn't sound I have no idea why they'd do that? > A few examples of pumps failing shortly after a belt change doesn't > prove anything. What does prove something is that the belt replacement is recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump is usually figured to be 50,000 miles. The pump should be automatically replaced unless it's already been done, but if that were the case wouldn't the timing belt have also been replaced at the same time? >> My Mazda dealer recommended against an automatic water pump >> change. They preferred to inspect the existing pump and decide on [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump is usually figured >to be 50,000 miles. By whom? 50,000 miles for the water pump's life span sounds awfully short. >>What does prove something is that the belt replacement is >>recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump is >>usually figured to be 50,000 miles. > > By whom? 50,000 miles for the water pump's life span sounds > awfully short. It's actually fairly long, 30,000 miles might be a bit closer to average. > >>What does prove something is that the belt replacement is > >>recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's actually fairly long, 30,000 miles might be a bit closer to > average. What brand of car? What era? My old car (Toyota) went 175,000 on the original water pump. The car got retired for other reasons but the water pump was still going strong. -John >> >>What does prove something is that the belt replacement is >> >>recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the original water pump. The car got retired for other reasons but > the water pump was still going strong. There's exceptions to every rule. > >> >>What does prove something is that the belt replacement is > >> >>recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > There's exceptions to every rule. True, but 30,000 miles is an exception as well, at least for the miata, and most if not all other modern cars as well. If the average life of the water pump was that low, we would see constant complaints here about them going out, especially considering the labor involved in replacing the water pump on the miata. The same complaints would also occur if the average life was only 50K miles. I have inspected and worked on quite a few miatas and have never seen one that had a factory water pump give out before 100K miles. I am sure that it happens, but it isn't common. pat >>> >>What does prove something is that the belt replacement is >>> >>recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >There's exceptions to every rule. Yeah, like every water cooled car I've ever owned, including Fiats. Never replaced a water pump after only 30K on any of them either. I'm not buying it and apparently neither is anyone else. >>>What does prove something is that the belt replacement is >>>recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >It's actually fairly long, 30,000 miles might be a bit closer to >average. So if you change the pump when you change your belt at 60K, then you've beaten the average water pump life by a factor of 100%? Then the average guy is going to have to change the water pump TWICE for every belt change? I don't think so. You really ought to think these things through before you make up your "facts". >>>>What does prove something is that the belt replacement is >>>>recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > You really ought to think these things through before you make up > your "facts". The fact is I've got 50 years changing water pumps, starters, alternators, clutches, transmissions, engines, etc. I also can read. One of the things I can read is odometers. The 30,000 mile figure came from Consumer Reports in an article about buying used cars some years back. The later water pumps on some Japanese cars do last longer but 30,000 miles is still close to an overall average. You really ought to think these things through and do a little research before you post. Gee, how much later on Japanese cars. I just sold a 1989 Camry 4 cyl with 232.000 + miles on it. Two belt changes and a clutch at 225,00. The water pump was still going when I sold it. You might think more about changing your coolant mix more. That is the real killer of water pumps ! People just don't pay attention to the coolant like they should !! Bruce RED '91 >>>What does prove something is that the belt replacement is >>>recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's actually fairly long, 30,000 miles might be a bit closer to > average. Wow. My experience with the cars I bought in the 1990s. '91 Nissan Sentra, 170k miles before I sold it, no water pump leak. '93 Geo Prism, 60k miles before trade-in, no water pump leak. '98 Chevy Monte Carlo, 122k miles so far, no water pump leak. '98 Ford Windstar, 120k miles, sold it, no water pump leak. So I must be *really* lucky? Dana > >>What does prove something is that the belt replacement is > >>recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's actually fairly long, 30,000 miles might be a bit closer to > average. You may be right, but that figure sounds so outlandish no one is going to believe you. I've never had a car where the water pump failed before 80,000 or maybe even 100,000 miles. That includes a 1969 VW Squareback, a 1973 Audi 100 LS (the water pump was about the only thing that DIDN'T fail on that car). a 1976 VW Rabbit, a 1979 Buick LeSabre, a 1985 Dodge Caravan, a 1992 Nissan Sentra, a 2000 Ford Explorer and a 1996 Miata. > > >>What does prove something is that the belt replacement is > > >>recommended at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump is [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > that car). a 1976 VW Rabbit, a 1979 Buick LeSabre, a 1985 Dodge Caravan, a > 1992 Nissan Sentra, a 2000 Ford Explorer and a 1996 Miata. No intention of offending the OP, but it seems like old truths die hard. Swaps are most strongly advocated by those with a potential conflict of interest. It's sort of like saying "You'll ruin the engine without changing the oil every 3,000 miles" while factory service manuals and 3rd party tests now say 5k, 7.5k or 15k. Not to mention the cars with oil quality sensors. If tire wear wasn't obvious some would advocate changing tires every 15k-30k like the old days! Technology improves over time. The auto shop profit motive remains constant. -John > No intention of offending the OP, but it seems like old truths die hard. > Swaps are most strongly advocated by those with a potential conflict of > interest. It's sort of like saying "You'll ruin the engine without changing > the oil every 3,000 miles" while factory service manuals and 3rd party tests > now say 5k, 7.5k or 15k. Agreed, but, be careful... > Not to mention the cars with oil quality sensors. Have you ever seen an oil quality sensor? I haven't. They don't exist. The "oil change" light on modern cars represents an educated guess based on factory testing and engine operating factors. The ECU calculates when to turn the light on. You could change the oil weekly and the light will still come on as long as you don't reset the computer's notion of when the oil was changed. > If tire wear wasn't obvious some would advocate changing tires every 15k-30k > like the old days! Heh. If mine only lasted that long. > Technology improves over time. The auto shop profit motive remains constant. Totally true. That's another tangent, though. [heavy editting] > I've never had a car where the water pump failed > before 80,000 or maybe even 100,000 miles. That includes a 1969 VW > Squareback, If the water pump had failed on your squareback, I would say you were the most unlucky dude on the planet! I've never had a front CV joint fail on my Miata either! :) > [heavy editting] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If the water pump had failed on your squareback, I would say you were > the most unlucky dude on the planet! Oops. Hey, it has windscreen washers doesn't it? :) > [heavy editting] > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption > =---- >> [heavy editting] >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> I've never had a front CV joint fail on my Miata either! :) > Hey, it has windscreen washers doesn't it? :) Still would have been the most unlucky dude on the planet. The VW powered the washer fluid by a valve off the spare tire for air pressure. Next question? :) > Still would have been the most unlucky dude on the planet. > The VW powered the washer fluid by a valve off the spare > tire for air pressure. I watched a gas station attendant replace the spare tire in a beetle and got the washer line confused with the vent for the fuel tank. The washer bottle instantly emptied into the tank. The owner of the station wisely had the car towed to a nearby VW specialist. > I've never had a car where the water pump failed > before 80,000 or maybe even 100,000 miles. Water pump on my '74 Pinto failed at 61,000 miles, a couple of weeks before I sold it. > > I've never had a car where the water pump failed > > before 80,000 or maybe even 100,000 miles. > > Water pump on my '74 Pinto failed at 61,000 miles, a couple of weeks before I > sold it. Pintos are different. Ford never expected one to go that far before burning to the waterline. --- Lanny Chambers '94C, St. Louis http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html >>> [heavy editting] >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Next question? :) Who was the imaginative designer who thought of that one? Just great! Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) REMOVE THE "z"s -> dommelenz@zmiata.net www.dommelen.net "EXIT THE INTERSTATES" (Jamie Jensen) Likely the same one that came up with the main/reserve fuel valve that would feed from both when the linkage got worn. (67 beatle euro spec ) >>>> [heavy editting] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Leon So,,, If you had a flat, would that not constitute a failed water pump? > Still would have been the most unlucky dude on the planet. > The VW powered the washer fluid by a valve off the spare [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption > =---- >> Still would have been the most unlucky dude on the planet. >> The VW powered the washer fluid by a valve off the spare [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >So,,, If you had a flat, would that not constitute a failed water pump? No. The VW came with a little bag of powder that combined with some washer fluid formed a rubber sealing compound, allowing the flat to be fixed. However, if you had two flats, it would constitute a failed washer-fluid pump, since the spare did not have enough air to blow up two tires and also power the washer jets. A paper towel was provided for that eventuality: you would dip it into the washer fluid and wipe it manually across the windshield. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) Hey, I can get you a GREAT PRICE on a 3 core radiator for your squareback.. Lifetime warranty against corrosion. (as long as you don't put any water in it ).. :) > Hey, it has windscreen washers doesn't it? :) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption >> =---- > It's actually fairly long, 30,000 miles might be a bit closer to > average. You've been working on too many Ladas. I've never replaced a water pump on any of my cars, except the Miata. Most of them had over 80k on them when sold, and my current Accord has about 170k. SignatureLanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA '94C the alignment page: http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html snip >What does prove something is that the belt replacement is recommended >at 60,000 miles and the life span of the water pump is usually figured >to be 50,000 miles. The pump should be automatically replaced unless >it's already been done, but if that were the case wouldn't the timing >belt have also been replaced at the same time? Sound advice...hard to beat that logic... > -- -Gord. (use gordon in email) > > And Pat is right on target about the water pump. I skipped it at 60k, > > and it started leaking at 114k. > > In your example, you were practically due for a new belt anyway. Correct, if 6000 miles is "almost." Naturally, I did the TB (again) while it was apart. BTW, both of my pulleys were dry and ready to seize; they may or may not have reached 120k. I don't consider any of this a big deal, just normal maintenance. The car is so cheap to own otherwise, I can't complain about such things. My point was only that it might be foolish not to replace the water pump on a 100,000-mile Miata, as long as it was down for a TB change. Ditto the pulleys SignatureLanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA '94C the alignment page: http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html |
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