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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / April 2005Miatas and premium versus regular gas
What are the opinions of Miata drivers about premium versus regular gas? I have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas prices I wonder if this is worth it? I bought a '96 last summer and have run it on 87 octane since. Runs fine. > What are the opinions of Miata drivers about premium versus regular gas? > I > have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas > prices I wonder if this is worth it? Quite a difference between the engine in a '96 and the one in a 2003. I specifically hunted out and bought my 2000 when all the dealers here had gotten in their new stock of 2001's because the engine had changed so much in 2001 (higher compression requiring premium). Even so, on a very hot summer day I have heard the occasional ping until I ease up a bit but so infrequently I stick to regular unless I am taking a vacation trip through the mountains, when I "treat it". > I bought a '96 last summer and have run it on 87 octane since. Runs fine. > >>What are the opinions of Miata drivers about premium versus regular gas? >>I >>have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas >>prices I wonder if this is worth it? Unless you have problems with engine knocking, there is no need whatsoever to use anything above 87 octane regular gas in your miata or any other car. >What are the opinions of Miata drivers about premium versus regular gas? I >have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas >prices I wonder if this is worth it? Not so. Some models require octane higher than 87. Use the grade of fuel recommended by your owners manual. > Unless you have problems with engine knocking, there is no need > whatsoever to use anything above 87 octane regular gas in your miata [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas > >prices I wonder if this is worth it? True, some models do require higher octane. Those that do will experience engine knocking at lower octane levels. If you aren't having that problem, you gain little if nothing by buying a higher octane level. >Not so. Some models require octane higher than 87. >Use the grade of fuel recommended by your owners manual. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas >> >prices I wonder if this is worth it? > Unless you have problems with engine knocking, there is no need > whatsoever to use anything above 87 octane regular gas in your miata > or any other car. That's not actually true. The knock-sensing ECU will attempt to run advanced timing and retard as necessary to deal with fuel quality. I know it's possible to get a little ping in my '02 on hot days under load, running 91-octane California pump gas, even at 91-octane the ECU is somewhat into retard. Running higher than 87-octane fuel, you're likely to get a little better bottom-end/mid-range, though it might only be something you can measure on a dyno. >What are the opinions of Miata drivers about premium versus regular gas? I >have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas >prices I wonder if this is worth it? The 2002 calls for high octane....the highest I can get around where I live is 91. I filled up on the way home from work and the 87 was $1.49, 89 was $1.59 and 91 was 1.69. It took 9 gallons to fill the tank...for $1.80 it wasn't worth being concerned about. Hey I bet I could start a fight... We'll give you some more softwood for some of your cheap gas. Up here we pay about $1 for a litre! Don't flame, just feeling silly tonight and want to mess a bit with a good neighbor! >>What are the opinions of Miata drivers about premium versus regular gas? I >>have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > <><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><> > > The 2002 calls for high octane....the highest I can get around where I > live is 91. I filled up on the way home from work and the 87 was > $1.49, 89 was $1.59 and 91 was 1.69. It took 9 gallons to fill the > tank...for $1.80 it wasn't worth being concerned about. Cheapest regular gas in my area is 1.99 on the other side of the Delaware river, and as high as 2.19 around town on this side. Don't ask about premium! Where is it they're selling premium gas a 1.69??? I might move... >> The 2002 calls for high octane....the highest I can get around where I >> live is 91. I filled up on the way home from work and the 87 was [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Where is it they're selling premium gas a 1.69??? I might move... The 1 should have been a 2 ...sorry. >>Cheapest regular gas in my area is 1.99 on the other side of the Delaware >>river, and as high as 2.19 around town on this side. Don't ask about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > The 1 should have been a 2 ...sorry. Ah, well, that makes sense. Good thing, too, I really didn't feel like packing.... >>> The 2002 calls for high octane....the highest I can get around where I >>> live is 91. I filled up on the way home from work and the 87 was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >The 1 should have been a 2 ...sorry. Your mind is still in happier times... Leon :)  SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) Poor baby... I filled up with CHEAP gas from Costco yesterday... $2.34 for REGULAR 87 octane ! I'd be THRILLED to pay your Premium price for regular gas ! ! ! >>What are the opinions of Miata drivers about premium versus regular gas? >>I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > <><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source > <><><><><><><><> There are a lot of differences of opinion on this issue. Mazda designed the 2001 and new MX-5s to run on 91+ octane gas.( I don't think you need 104 octane gas!) Mazda design engineers know which fuel octane will provide the best performance and reliability for the car. Your MX-5 has a knock sensor that retards the timing when knock is detected, to prevent possible engine damage. Running a octane gas that is lower than recommended may reduce your effective miles per gallon and also reduces engine torque. It also causes increased engine temperatures that could cause damage when driving in extremely hot summer weather. I passed a '97 Eldorado yesterday with the 4.6L Northstar motor. These cars have a knock sensor also, but I could easily hear the "pinging." Why would someone spend that kind of money for an automobile and run it on 87 octane? Another approach to saving money on gasoline is to adjust your driving style. If you are getting only 20 to 24 mpg on your car and you need to make your money go further, it makes more sense to use the right grade of gasoline, and reduce the hard throttle starts and high rpm shifting that burns more fuel. The older '89 through 2000 Miatas were designed to run on 87 octane. I average about 26 mpg in combined city/freeway driving on my '99, and that includes some spirited driving. Running higher octane than recommended does not increase power or miles per gallon on any stock MX-5. > What are the opinions of Miata drivers about premium versus regular gas? > I > have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas > prices I wonder if this is worth it? The current 1.8 engine runs 10:1 in stock form. It may be marginal with 87 octane since you may have compression creep with carbon buildup in the cylinders at the engine ages and you may end up with old gas with lower effective octane especially if you don't use the car on a regular basis. I think part of the current recommendation comes party from the lawyers. Looking at the Quick Tips booklet it reads 87 octane minimum. Looking at the 2004 owner's manual page 4-2 there are two entries. Under MX5/miata (sic) it reads "your Mazda will perform best" with 91 octane. "You may use a regular octane fuel 87-90 but this will slightly reduce performance." Under MAZDASPEED MX5 it says: "Use only premium unleaded fuel" So, use whatever works for you. If you keep your rpm needle bouncing off the rev limiter, use premium. If you are cruising mainstreet on Saturday night, I thing regular is probably fine. >There are a lot of differences of opinion on this issue. Mazda designed the >2001 and new MX-5s to run on 91+ octane gas.( I don't think you need 104 [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas >> prices I wonder if this is worth it? > So, use whatever works for you. If you keep your rpm needle > bouncing off the rev limiter, use premium. If you are cruising > mainstreet on Saturday night, I thing regular is probably fine. I don't think so. Look at this part of Larry Gadbois post here: >>Your MX-5 has a knock sensor that retards the timing >>when knock is detected, to prevent possible engine damage. Running >>a octane gas that is lower than recommended may reduce your >>effective miles per gallon and also reduces engine torque. It also >>causes increased engine temperatures that could cause damage when >>driving in extremely hot summer weather. His point about miles per gallon is important in these days of higher gas prices and your mileage will drop if the knock sensor does retard the timing. How much and what effect this will have on your wallet you'll have to figure for yourself, I'm in the middle of my taxes and numbers make my head hurt.... > So, use whatever works for you. If you keep your rpm needle bouncing > off the rev limiter, use premium. If you are cruising mainstreet on > Saturday night, I thing regular is probably fine. Actually, this is almost always precisely the other way around... At high RPM, knock doesn't usually happen. Cylinder filling is most efficient at the torque peak and that happens well below the top of the rev range. Also, there isn't as much time for the mixture to get into the state where it will detonate (knock) when the engine is turning faster. If you were to cruise along mainstreet at around peak torque RPM and then stand on it without gearing down... ...then you'd get knock! SignatureAlan Baker Vancouver, British Columbia "If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard." > There are a lot of differences of opinion on this issue. Clearly. Also differences in experiences with individual Miatas. > Your MX-5 has a knock sensor > that retards the timing when knock is detected, to prevent possible engine > damage. Running a octane gas that is lower than recommended may reduce your > effective miles per gallon and also reduces engine torque. In my 2000 Miata, I know that no matter what, no matter what weather, any way you slice it, it ALWAYS knocks with anything below 92 octane gas. The knock-sense and timing retard circuit does not seem to have the range to keep it from knocking under these conditions. I guess I presumed this was normal and should have had the dealer fix it under warranty before that ran out??? I also note a significant reduction in fuel mileage. I get about 20-22 with 87 octane (which includes not driving as hard simply because the knock scares me off) and I get about 24-26 with 92 octane and drive much harder. > The older '89 through 2000 Miatas were designed to run on 87 octane. I don't know about "designed to run"... But generally speaking, the compression ratio of the early 1.8's was 9.0:1 or below so I can see how they'd easily run on 87 but the 90-93's 9.4:1 might be a stretch, as would be the 99-00 9.5:1. Certainly 10:1 of the 2001+ cars is a stretch for 87 oct. I guess it depends on a whole lot of factors. All I know is, my 2000 NB knocks on 87 octane at all revs up to about 5K no matter conditions, and it even can knock mildly on premium gas with the A/C on in hot weather (in central TX, hot is real hot). [snip] >> The older '89 through 2000 Miatas were designed to run on 87 octane. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >it even can knock mildly on premium gas with the A/C on in hot weather (in >central TX, hot is real hot). If the manufacturer states in the owner's manual and on the stickers in the car that the car takes 87 octane, I think it is fair to say it was "designed to run" 87 octane. FWIW, my 99 has never knocked under any conditions with 87. Either your car has some individual quirk or it might be time to try a new brand of gas. Good luck. Josh, The '99 and 2000 Miatas engines are the same. The timing is set at 10 degrees BTDC. The timing is determined by a fixed position CAS (crank angle sensor) that is mounted at about 4 o'clock at the edge of the crank pulley. If the CAS is stock you have other problems. There are articles that describe the modification or replacement of the CAS bracket that allows the stock timing to be advanced up to about 18 degrees. If you have access to a timing light you can check the timing. If the timing checks at 10 degrees you may be running very lean. Inspect the plugs. If they are very white instead of tan you are running too lean. You could also have a carbon build up that is increasing the compression ratio and causing the problem. My '99 runs great on 87 octane >> There are a lot of differences of opinion on this issue. > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > conditions, and it even can knock mildly on premium gas with the A/C on in > hot weather (in central TX, hot is real hot). > Josh, > > The '99 and 2000 Miatas engines are the same. Yes that's what I figured. But of course I did drive a number of '99s (with low miles... under 15K) before I drove MY 2000 model, and my car was decidedly more peppy... very noticeable. Made me think (at the time) that the 2k cars were different in some notable way. However, in retrospect, I think it's likely mine's just deviant in some way. > The timing is set at 10 > degrees BTDC. The timing is determined by a fixed position CAS (crank angle [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stock timing to be advanced up to about 18 degrees. If you have access to a > timing light you can check the timing. I haven't checked it, haven't attempted to modify it. > If the timing checks at 10 degrees you may be running very lean. Inspect the > plugs. If they are very white instead of tan you are running too lean. You > could also have a carbon build up that is increasing the compression ratio > and causing the problem. Well it's done this since the day it was brand new so carbon buildup is not a reasonable explanation. It's done this with every brand of gas available in the Austin area. I've got nearly 60K on the car now and it's always been the same. It's on the second set of plugs (changed about 30K.. time for another set I guess) but the last set was very tan looked perfect, just the end of the electrode was rounded off a bit as per normal plug wear. No reason to think it was running lean. I have never really known what the explanation was for this car's need for premium gas but I never even really questioned it until gas prices got to over $2. I've been used to running premium gas for my last three cars so it was no big thing. >> Josh, >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >before I drove MY 2000 model, and my car was decidedly more peppy... very >noticeable. Strange. Do you think the knock sensor could be broke? Mazda might have well fooled around with settings between 99 and 00, but if it knocks under all conditions, either they are braver than I would think or there is something weird about your car. From your other posts, I understand that you got it new and it did it from the beginning. Just curious, Leon > Made me think (at the time) that the 2k cars were different in >some notable way. However, in retrospect, I think it's likely mine's just >deviant in some way. SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) >>>Josh, >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Strange. Do you think the knock sensor could be broke? Well it doesn't regularly knock on 91+ octane gas. You have to really TRY to get it to knock (5th gear 20mph WOT). IDK exactly how the knock sensor works on a NB but if it's like other cars I have experience with, then it's a piezoelectric element embedded in some kind of casing bolted to the block in a certain spot. Failure mode would be disconnect (which would cause an error code, likely retard timing, engine light come on), wiring/connection flakiness (intermittent engine light), overtorqued/cracked element (constantly sense knock, car would run like total crap and retard the timing), or undertorqued or the thing is defective in a way that it never senses knock, in which case you'd think it'd knock all the time no matter what gas. So... given that it does not knock on 91+ octane gas, and it does knock regularly with 87 octane makes me think the knock sensor is probably working, but the computer is unable to sufficiently retard the timing to prevent knock with 87 octane gas. In that case, it could be excessive compression as Lanny suggested, or excessive static timing advance, some of both, or just somehow Austin, TX has ultra-bad gas at every station in the NW suburbs. Either that or the knock sensor works ok under some conditions (premium gas) and does not sense knock when it's excessive... My experience with other cars (my VW 16V Jetta, for example, with 11:1 compression ratio, 7800rpm redline and two knock sensors) is that when the knock sensor goes out or malfunctions, it results in the car running extremely bad because the fault mode of the computer is "retard" in more than one sense. This is really not how my Miata acts, but quite the opposite. FWIW the only mod to the car is cold-air intake (homebrew... K&N filter and plumbing, mostly for "the sound" and not really performance improvement at all). I did the CAI mod within the first 5k miles. Can't remember if it knocked before that or not. > Mazda might have well fooled around with settings between 99 > and 00, but if it knocks under all conditions, either they are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > From your other posts, I understand that you got it new and > it did it from the beginning. Yes that's correct. > FWIW the only mod to the car is cold-air intake (homebrew... K&N filter and > plumbing, mostly for "the sound" and not really performance improvement at > all). I did the CAI mod within the first 5k miles. Can't remember if it > knocked before that or not. I'd try reinstalling the stock intake. Isn't there a thermosensor in the airbox? SignatureLanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA '94C the alignment page: http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html >>FWIW the only mod to the car is cold-air intake (homebrew... K&N filter and >>plumbing, mostly for "the sound" and not really performance improvement at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'd try reinstalling the stock intake. Isn't there a thermosensor in the > airbox? Yes there is (was). It's reinstalled in my intake. > > I'd try reinstalling the stock intake. Isn't there a thermosensor in the > > airbox? > > Yes there is (was). It's reinstalled in my intake. It may not be working properly. SignatureLanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA '94C the alignment page: http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html >>>I'd try reinstalling the stock intake. Isn't there a thermosensor in the >>>airbox? >> >>Yes there is (was). It's reinstalled in my intake. > > It may not be working properly. Ya think? ;) now, if I knew the definition of "correctly" then I could probably debug it. However I wasn't really sure it was a thermosensor... but I can say with authority that I didn't really know or care what it was. I figured any sensor in that location couldn't be ultra-critical (and I guess I was right, since the car's been running fine for five years with only complaint being pinging with crap gas). I guess I shoulda bought a shop manual before monkeying with it. If you pull it out and put a cork in the hole, the car won't start. Funny how I can't really find much info on the operation of this thing on the net. You google "Miata cam" and you'll get dissertations on the operation of an internal part most folks are unlikely ever to tinker with, but no info on a part that you have to touch if you do as much as change the air intake plumbing like every 17-year-old rice boy on the planet has done. > Funny how I can't really find much info on the operation of this thing > on the net. The temperature sensor is most likely a temperature-variable resistor, also called a "thermistor". You can probably gain some insight from looking at the Megasquirt EFI page or perhaps at Dick Bipes' ACU documentation. Cheers, Dana >>>>Josh, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Well it doesn't regularly knock on 91+ octane gas. You have to really TRY >to get it to knock (5th gear 20mph WOT). I too have no information on what exactly this thing does or think it does, but it has been suggested on this group that the advance was not very aggressive. Mazda might have designed the engine control for 91 octane, relying on the knock sensor to take out timing if that proves too aggressive for 87 octane. Retarding timing by sensing knock is not a very reliable procedure, because when it knocks audibly, you probably already have glowing carbon deposits causing it, and making things worse. >IDK exactly how the knock sensor works on a NB but if it's like other cars I >have experience with, then it's a piezoelectric element embedded in some [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >in a way that it never senses knock, in which case you'd think it'd knock >all the time no matter what gas. I would not. As a supercharger owner, I know 91 makes a big difference in whether it knocks or not compared to 87. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > I too have no information on what exactly this thing does or think > it does, but it has been suggested on this group that the advance was > not very aggressive. Mazda might have designed the engine control > for 91 octane, relying on the knock sensor to take out timing if > that proves too aggressive for 87 octane. My 2002 SE, pre-JRSC, would ping slightly under WOT@3k RPM, like when climbing a steep hill in a low gear at low speed. I think the motor probably needs genuine 93 octane to avoid knock/retard. Dana > I too have no information on what exactly this thing does or think > it does, but it has been suggested on this group that the advance was > not very aggressive. Mazda might have designed the engine control > for 91 octane, relying on the knock sensor to take out timing if > that proves too aggressive for 87 octane. So you're saying that the ignition advance provided by virtue of input from the intake air temp thermistor is not very aggressive? Or the timing curve is not too aggressive on the whole? Frankly I have no clue what the ECU function is but if this intake air temp sensor has much of an effect on timing advance I'd be surprised, particularly in comparison to the input of a knock sensor (or four). My guess is that the ability of the ECU to retard the timing is insufficient to prevent knock on 87 oct. gas given whatever other combination of variables and tolerances on my particular car. I guess a timing light would settle it once and for alL! I'd think the air temperature in the tract between the air filter and the throttle is reasonably consistent and exact location of this sensor should not make a really big difference in running of the car. Certainly it can't be sensing anything very fine... 10degF or larger resolution? Hard to say. Mainly the only thing different in my car is where this component is located in the intake plumbing. I guess it's possible it's getting an erroneous reading. FWIW I found some notes... I put this intake in with 600 miles on the car. So having not broken it in 100%, there's no way to recall whether it truly "always knocked" or "always since I did the intake mod". > Frankly I have no clue what the ECU > function is but if this intake air temp sensor has much of an effect on > timing advance I'd be surprised I don't know much about NBs, but I'd suspect the sensor affects mixture, not timing. Of course, being too lean can cause pinging, too. SignatureLanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA '94C the alignment page: http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html >> I too have no information on what exactly this thing does or think >> it does, but it has been suggested on this group that the advance was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >So you're saying that the ignition advance provided by virtue of input from >the intake air temp thermistor is not very aggressive? I was talking about the knock sensor, but on the link ECU's, ignition is retarded when the intake air temperature increases too. But as Lanny says, the problem with having a nonstock intake might be too cold air for the amount of fuel supplied by the ECU, giving a lean mixture. The stock airbox takes in warm air at a regulated temperature. > Or the timing curve >is not too aggressive on the whole? Frankly I have no clue what the ECU [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >other combination of variables and tolerances on my particular car. I guess >a timing light would settle it once and for alL! I should have somewhere the Link ECU timings for the nonaspirated 1.8l engine. >I'd think the air temperature in the tract between the air filter and the >throttle is reasonably consistent and exact location of this sensor should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >located in the intake plumbing. I guess it's possible it's getting an >erroneous reading. Sure. It could be heated by a variety of problems (boundary layer air, heat conduction through the conduit, radiation, etc. But IIRC, you said that your plugs did not show evidence of a lean mixture? Leon >FWIW I found some notes... I put this intake in with 600 miles on the car. > So having not broken it in 100%, there's no way to recall whether it truly >"always knocked" or "always since I did the intake mod". SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) >I should have somewhere the Link ECU timings for the nonaspirated >1.8l engine. Come to think of it, that is for the M1 compression ratio. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > Sure. It could be heated by a variety of problems (boundary layer > air, heat conduction through the conduit, radiation, etc. But IIRC, > you said that your plugs did not show evidence of a lean mixture? That's right. But I haven't had them out in 30K miles. Worth it to check that too. The orig. plugs just had regular looking plug wear and were nice and tan. > But of course I did drive a number of '99s (with low miles... under 15K) > before I drove MY 2000 model, and my car was decidedly more peppy... very > noticeable. Made me think (at the time) that the 2k cars were different in > some notable way. However, in retrospect, I think it's likely mine's just > deviant in some way. I suspect your compression ratio happens to be on the high side of production tolerance, due to pistons, head gasket, whatever. I think my '94 is the same: it's got more grunt than most, but used to ping on 89 in hot weather at 14BTDC, until I installed a Randall CAI. Now I can use 87 all year round. SignatureLanny Chambers, St. Louis, USA '94C the alignment page: http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html Ok here's a different view I bought my 1990 Miata last April specifically with the intent of summer drives and autocrossing it every chance I get. The car had a Jackson Racing supercharger on it when I bought it which requires and or specifies 93 octane which is hard to get. So I have 2 marks on the crank sensor 6 btdc for 91 and 8 btdc for 93. A friend asked me what kind of mileage I get my answer was "Who Cares" I did not buy the car for milage. > There are a lot of differences of opinion on this issue. Mazda designed the > 2001 and new MX-5s to run on 91+ octane gas.( I don't think you need 104 [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane premium, but with present gas > > prices I wonder if this is worth it? > What are the opinions of Miata drivers about premium versus > regular gas? I have babied my 2003 Miata with 104 octane > premium, but with present gas prices I wonder if this is worth > it? If it knocks/pings on regular, then use premium. SignatureGrant Edwards grante Yow! HAIR TONICS, please!! at visi.com |
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