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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / April 2005

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Problem With Rebuilding Clutch Master Cylinder

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mjb920 - 11 Apr 2005 14:13 GMT
About a month ago a posted a couple messages about a clutch slave
cylinder, and then a master cylinder for a '96. I replaced the slave
cylinder, but couldn't get any pressure when trying to bleed the
system. I bought a master cylinder kit, which had no instructions. I
think I replaced everything in the correct order, but still can't get
any pressure when I pump the clutch pedal.

This is the order I put the parts back into the cylinder - spring (fat
end first), rubber cup (cupped end facing spring), metal washer (the
old one was solid plastic, but the new metal one has a hole in it, the
piston, and then the retaining clip.

I filled the cylinder with fluid, pumped it about 100 times, but get
nothing at the slave cylinder, and the fluid level in the master
doesn't go down. Thanks for any help.

Jim
Don Bruder - 11 Apr 2005 15:46 GMT
> About a month ago a posted a couple messages about a clutch slave
> cylinder, and then a master cylinder for a '96. I replaced the slave
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Jim

Fair notice:
I'm a 626 owner/driver, not Miata. However, the Miata and 626 use
virtually identical clutch plumbing, differing only in the length of the
hose and exactly where it runs along the firewall. This advice works
perfectly (based on my experience) on the 626, and should work just as
well on the Miata.

Try it as "Spring, finger over "output" hole, pour in brake fluid, add
rubber cup facing spring, etc...", load the reservoir with BF, and use a
screwdriver or chunk of dowel to pump like a madman. At each "push"
stroke, uncover the output hole. Before each "release", seal the output
hole with your finger so it can't suck air instead of drawing fluid from
the reservoir like it should. Repeat until either your arms fall off
(That'll seem like the most likely thing to happen... if it does, put
'em back on and keep at it!) or until every "push" cycle spits an
unbroken stream of BF from the output hole, from "starting to press", to
"bottomed out". Keep the reservoir topped up throughout the process!

Once you're at that point, you'll need something to plug the output
hole. I've fond that a suitably sized short chunk of wooden dowel
"screwed" into the output hole works well. Remount the MC on the car,
and remove the slave - As you know, simple task - two bolts and unscrew
from the line. Open the slave up like you're doing a rebuild, but
instead of rebuilding it, pour it full of brake fluid, THEN reassemble,
doing your best to avoid spilling the contents. Set it aside for the
moment. remove the dowel (or whatever plug was used) from the MC, and
connect the line to it. Repeat the "pump like a madman" process on the
master, only substituting "The other end of the line" anyplace my
instructions say "output hole". A helper is a Good Thing(TM) for this
step.

Once you've got straight fluid coming from the end of the line, cap it
with your thumb, get your helper off the clutch pedal, have him/her hand
you the slave cylinder after filling the opening the line end is going
to go into with brake fluid, then screw the slave onto the line. Now
bolt the slave back to the tranny. From that point, it's just like
bleeding brakes - "pump pump pump hold! Open bleed screw, repeat" until
there's no more air in left in the system. With the "prefill/prebleed"
operation described, that's a very short amount of time, since there's
very little, if any, air in the line when you start.

Due to the way the line is run, clutches are usually a pure pain to try
to bleed unless you've gotten rid of practically all the air before you
begin. Starting from a dead-empty MC attached to a closed system is an
great exercise in futility, since it just squeezes air into the line on
the downstroke, then sucks it back out of the line on the upstroke - you
can sit there literally all day like that and make no visible progress.

My 626 is the same way (using the same clutch MC, line and slave) -
After opening the clutch hydraulics, trying to get a solid fluid column
from master to slave from an "empty" start will take forever, *IF* it
can be accomplished at all before you lose every last trace of anything
resembling patience. Prefilling off the vehicle turns it into "minor
pain in the butt, but doable". Last time, I ended up stripping the
entire system - MC, slave, and lines, off the car, doing the rebuild,
pre-filling, and the entire bleed sequence (with the slave held higher
than the master so that trapped air bubbles could rise up the tubing and
get vented from the slave, rather than returning to the MC to undo all
my progress) and had the bleeding done in about 5 minutes. Put
everything back on the car as a unit (by feeding the slave down amongst
the engine parts to where it belonged on the end of the hose) in about
15 minutes, and the whole job was done, including the rebuilding that
was needed, in less than an hour.

Clearances on the miata may be a bit tighter than on the 626, but I
suspect you'll be able to pull the same stunt, should you so desire.

Signature

Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
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Tom Howlin - 12 Apr 2005 00:51 GMT
> About a month ago a posted a couple messages about a clutch slave
> cylinder, and then a master cylinder for a '96. I replaced the slave
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Jim

Jim,

When you say you pumped it 100 times, were you opening and closing the
bleeding screw each time?  Just pumping the pedal without bleeding the
air will do absolutely nothing, not matter how many times you attempt
it.  Clutch systems are a pain to bleed by hand, a mighty vac or similar
vacuum creating system, makes the job much easier but, one way or the
other, you've got to bleed all the air off before it will work and
before you'll see an appreciable drop in the fluid level.

Tom
92 Red (gone but not forgotten)
05 Vette (red, but of course)
mjb920 - 12 Apr 2005 03:36 GMT
> > About a month ago a posted a couple messages about a clutch slave
> > cylinder, and then a master cylinder for a '96. I replaced the slave
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> bleeding screw each time?  Just pumping the pedal without bleeding the
> air will do absolutely nothing, not matter how many times you attempt

> it.  Clutch systems are a pain to bleed by hand, a mighty vac or similar
> vacuum creating system, makes the job much easier but, one way or the

> other, you've got to bleed all the air off before it will work and
> before you'll see an appreciable drop in the fluid level.
>
> Tom
> 92 Red (gone but not forgotten)
> 05 Vette (red, but of course)

Just pumping it, first with the bleeding screw on the slave cylinder
closed, and then I tried it with it open. But never depressing the
clutch with it open, closing it, and then releasing the clutch. You are
talking about the screw on the slave cylinder?
mjb920 - 14 Apr 2005 18:37 GMT
> > > About a month ago a posted a couple messages about a clutch slave
> > > cylinder, and then a master cylinder for a '96. I replaced the
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> clutch with it open, closing it, and then releasing the clutch. You are
> talking about the screw on the slave cylinder?

Got it! Used Don's method to load up the master cylinder with BF,
quickly hooked it back up, then bled the slave cylinder. Two
revelations - snap rings fly very far when they come off the pliers
unexpectedly; the system bleeds much better if your assistant pumps the
clutch and not the brake. Thanks, all, for the help.
Don Bruder - 14 Apr 2005 21:27 GMT
> Got it! Used Don's method to load up the master cylinder with BF,
> quickly hooked it back up, then bled the slave cylinder. Two
> revelations - snap rings fly very far when they come off the pliers
> unexpectedly;

That's why they're also known as "Jesus clips" - As in "TWINNG! -
Tink-tink-tink... Oh Jesus... Gotta go find a new one" if you're
fortunate, or "TWINNG! - Oh Jesus! My eye!" if your luck is *REALLY* out
that day...

> the system bleeds much better if your assistant pumps the
> clutch and not the brake.

D'OH!

Been there, done that, desperately wanted to slap the assistant into
next week when I figured out that the reason I was getting nothing out
of the bleed screws and the fluid level wasn't dropping in the reservoir
was 'cause he was mashing the clutch pedal instead of the brake during a
brake-bleed - "'cause it was easier than doing the other pedal", he
says...  AUGH!!!!!! 'Scuse me whilst I step around the corner and pound
my head against the wall for a few minutes. Why? 'Cause it feels so much
better when I stop!

Glad everything worked out for you. Now ya know how it's done!

The bad news: Mazda clutch hydraulics seem to have a tendency to puke
more or less in pairs - My experience is that the slave dies first, gets
rebuilt, then the master fails within a few weeks, requiring a rebuild
itself, then a few weeks later, you're back to rebuilding the slave,
lather, rinse, repeat. As a result of this experience, it's become my
personal policy to do both at once (and either replace or VERY
thoroughly wash out the line with clean BF before reassembly) if either
one dies. At $6 for the slave kit, and $8 for the master kit, the price
of an extra quart of BF, and ten minutes each (once they're off the car)
it's cheap "headache insurance" to do both "whether the other one needs
it or not".

Signature

Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.

mjb920 - 15 Apr 2005 18:06 GMT
> > Got it! Used Don's method to load up the master cylinder with BF,
> > quickly hooked it back up, then bled the slave cylinder. Two
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> The bad news: Mazda clutch hydraulics seem to have a tendency to puke

> more or less in pairs - My experience is that the slave dies first, gets
> rebuilt, then the master fails within a few weeks, requiring a rebuild
> itself, then a few weeks later, you're back to rebuilding the slave,
> lather, rinse, repeat. As a result of this experience, it's become my

> personal policy to do both at once (and either replace or VERY
> thoroughly wash out the line with clean BF before reassembly) if either
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
> See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.

I actually did the slave cylinder first, then the master cylinder.
Don1500 - 22 Apr 2005 20:26 GMT
OK, I'm new to Miata and Mazda altogether but......
Every clutch system I'v seen has a bleeder nut that you can connect a
small piece of rubber hose to. If you put this hose in a jar filled
with clean fluid open the nut and pump until you don't get any bubbles
you have bled the system. And you don't have to remember "Is my finger
on or off for this move?" And you can do it yourself.
Don Bruder - 22 Apr 2005 22:31 GMT
> OK, I'm new to Miata and Mazda altogether but......
> Every clutch system I'v seen has a bleeder nut that you can connect a
> small piece of rubber hose to. If you put this hose in a jar filled
> with clean fluid open the nut and pump until you don't get any bubbles
> you have bled the system. And you don't have to remember "Is my finger
> on or off for this move?" And you can do it yourself.

In theory, the method works, and works well.

Out in "The Real World", I've seen it be anywhere between "Works like a
charm" and "Total waste of time and effort" on the "useful" scale.
Depends on the vehicle, at least, and probably at least somewhat on the
abilities of the person dong the task.

It was wonderful for bleeding the brakes on my 626. For bleeding the
clutch, I'd likely STILL be working at it today if that was the only
method available. Since neither the vehicle nor the operator changed,
only the application of the method, I'm left with little option but to
assume that the method itself was at least partly to blame for my total
lack of anything like progress when I tried doing the clutch the same
way I did the brakes.

In this particular case, I'm thinking "YMMV" needs to be altered to
"YMWV" - Your milage WILL vary.

Signature

Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.

pws - 24 Apr 2005 01:14 GMT
>>OK, I'm new to Miata and Mazda altogether but......
>>Every clutch system I'v seen has a bleeder nut that you can connect a
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> In this particular case, I'm thinking "YMMV" needs to be altered to
> "YMWV" - Your milage WILL vary.

I have been extremely happy with these for my brakes as well as for the
clutch slave cylinder. Not affiliated with the company in any way except
as a satisfied customer.

http://speedbleeder.com/

pat
Chas Hurst - 24 Apr 2005 02:42 GMT
> >>OK, I'm new to Miata and Mazda altogether but......
> >>Every clutch system I'v seen has a bleeder nut that you can connect a
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> pat

I recently tried to buy a set of these and came up empty. Besides the
vehicle I was working on had 3 different pitch bleed screws. A friend at the
counter of the local NAPA store produced a bleeder kit consisting of a
plastic bottle with integral check valve and a magnet to hang by. Also
included where a few plastic tubes and  2 adaptors for bench bleeding a
master cylinder. IIRC it cost $6, which is less than the cost of one
speedybleeder. I don't remember the brand name.
 
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