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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / August 2005Had an accident in my Miata. Selling it on Ebay if anyone is interested.
Hello all, I haven't made a post to this board in quite some time, as I've been busy and my Miata hasn't given me any trouble lately :) Unfortunately This past Sunday I was enjoying a drive with the top down when a deer jumped out directly in front of me. The road was slightly wet, as it had rained earlier that day, and I smacked on the brakes and swerved around him. However, the road was wetter than I thought, and the brakes locked up and before I even had a chance to think about pumping the pedal, I landed in a pretty good ditch. I wasn't injured, save a burn on the arm from the airbag, and the deer ran away unscathed, but the Miata has seen better days. I know we're not supposed to solicit in this group, but I don't have full coverage on the Miata anymore, and thusly this accident is not covered. I can't afford to fix it outright, so I put it up on Ebay. I hope it goes to a good home. http://tinyurl.com/8mksq If anyone here is looking for a fixer upper, or a candidate for a good 1.8 engine swap with a lot of goodies, take a look. Thanks for all the help and support over the years, and I'll be back one of these days as soon as I get another Miata! Paco Injured '97 Montego Blue "Paco" <Pacocase@gmail.com> wrote in: > I wasn't injured, save a burn on the arm from the airbag, and the > deer ran away unscathed, but the Miata has seen better days. I'm glad you weren't hurt, sorry the deer lived (miserable hoofed rats do thousands of dollars worth of damage every year and kill quite a few people, you're lucky!) I hope you recover financially somehow, the car looks pretty badly damaged. Oh sad, so sad! I lost my first Miata to a red light runner this past August so I totally sympathize. Glad you got out unhurt - best of luck with the auction! > Hello all, > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Paco > Injured '97 Montego Blue Hey guys, thanks for the kind replies. Yeah, I was pretty angry the next day when the sun came out and I could see the extent of the damage. I live in rural WV and I see deer constantly, but have always had time to slow down first. This one just came out of the bushes right in front of me. Incredibly stupid, destructive, and as pointed out, often deadly animals. Damned things. > Hey guys, thanks for the kind replies. Yeah, I was pretty angry the > next day when the sun came out and I could see the extent of the > damage. I live in rural WV and I see deer constantly, but have always > had time to slow down first. This one just came out of the bushes right > in front of me. Incredibly stupid, destructive, and as pointed out, > often deadly animals. Damned things. I hit one a while back and totaled both my car and the deer. I didn't hold any animosity towards the deer, it was just doing it's thing in an increasingly human-populated environment, where the roads that they must cross and the vehicles that hit them (or vice-versa) were added by people long after the deer were here. "Incredibly stupid, destructive, and as pointed out, often deadly animals. Damned things." All of the above statements apply to far more people that I have encountered and/or heard about than to wild animals. :-) Glad to hear that you are ok. Your accident could re-ignite a couple of debates, since it involved attempted accident avoidance on wet roads (ABS vs. non-ABS), and you have an airbag that deployed that apparently offered you no protection but caused a slight injury instead. Good luck! Pat > and you have an airbag that deployed that apparently offered > you no protection but caused a slight injury instead. How did you decide that? For all we know, without the airbag he might have ended up in the hospital or the morgue rather than walking away with an abrasion.  SignatureGrant Edwards grante Yow! My LESLIE GORE record at is BROKEN... visi.com >>and you have an airbag that deployed that apparently offered >>you no protection but caused a slight injury instead. > > How did you decide that? For all we know, without the airbag he > might have ended up in the hospital or the morgue rather than > walking away with an abrasion. The passenger compartment is completely intact. The only injury mentioned in the original post was an abrasion to the wrist. If his body and or face had impacted the airbag to the extent that it was offering protection, especially from major injury or death, there would probably be abrasions and/or brusises to other places than one arm. The one person that I have personally seen that was probably saved by their airbag in a high-speed collision had two black eyes and chest/neck abrasions from hitting the airbag. I'll admit that I should have used the word "possibly" instead of "apparently" since I was not there at the accident. Looking at the pictures, while the car is torn up, it does not look like a collision that would be likely to cause serious injury unless the occupants were not wearing seat belts. Saying this, I am also aware that some people die in what appear to be fairly minor accidents while others have walked away from extreme wrecks without a scratch. Of course, dropping into a ditch presents a very good possiblilty of a rollover, which is one reason that I consider a good rollbar a more important safety feature than the airbag in the miata. So Paco, what is it? Do you think that the airbag helped any or did it just hurt your arm? Pat I can say without a doubt that in the accident I was in last August, the airbag saved my face from going through the windshield. It didn't keep me from breaking my leg or wrist or arm or shoulder or pelvis but it kept me from breaking my face! I think it was pretty valuable! Actually the doctors said it might have been what broke my wrist. But I'd rather have a broken wrist than a broken face. I imagine facial bones being shoved into my brain or the front of my skull being crushed. ICK. Give me an airbag any day. >>>and you have an airbag that deployed that apparently offered >>>you no protection but caused a slight injury instead. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Pat > I can say without a doubt that in the accident I was in last August, the > airbag saved my face from going through the windshield. It didn't keep me [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > wrist than a broken face. I imagine facial bones being shoved into my brain > or the front of my skull being crushed. ICK. Give me an airbag any day. There is no question that airbags save lives and prevent serious injury in many cases. There is also no question that some people have been badly hurt or killed by airbags going off during low-speed collisions that would have resulted in little to no injury if an explosive device had not blown up in front of the person. This is, however, usually with small people sitting too close to the steering wheel. A broken wrist is better than a broken face, but a broken wrist from an airbag that deployed during a low-speed wreck that would have otherwise caused little to no injury is a very bad thing. Another factor is the different generations of airbags as the technology has improved. I am glad that the airbag from my 1991 miata is not in the car. If I had a 2006 model, or even a 1999 model, I would probably feel differently about it. Glad to hear you made it through the wreck, it sounds like it was a really nasty one. Was it in a miata? Pat It was not only a Miata, it was my first - the car I had wanted for years and years and it was less than 6 months old. VERY sad. But happy for me because in spite of what the doctors first thought, I did live to type about it later. And in a few more months from now they will probably even take the steel bolts out of my leg! Woo hoo! You can see a picture of the dearly departed here... http://tinyurl.com/d4yhl >> I can say without a doubt that in the accident I was in last August, the >> airbag saved my face from going through the windshield. It didn't keep me [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Pat > It was not only a Miata, it was my first - the car I had wanted for years > and years and it was less than 6 months old. VERY sad. But happy for me > because in spite of what the doctors first thought, I did live to type about > it later. And in a few more months from now they will probably even take the > steel bolts out of my leg! Woo hoo! You can see a picture of the dearly > departed here... http://tinyurl.com/d4yhl Holy crap, you are lucky to still be here. Red light runners should be shot, along with people who tailgate (slightly kidding). In 20+ years of driving, I have seen one car pulled over for running a red light, and none that was obviously pulled over for tailgating. For some reason, the police in my area and the other places in America that I have driven find it more important to give people tickets for doing 10 mph over the speed limit on the highway than to enforce safety violations that are far more likely to cause the type of injuries that you have suffered. Glad to see that your attitude is still good. I am not sure that I would be able to manage the same after getting hit by the POS. By the way, what was the age of the driver and what vehicle did the driver hit you with, and was the driver intoxicated, if you don't mind me asking? Best wishes on your recovery! pat Thanks for the well wishes, Pat. Honestly though my attitude goes from "Kill The SOB!" to "I could make the same stupid mistake he made (but I really doubt that's true because I don't speed or run red lights)" to "KILL HIM NOW!"...at some point it seems that actually stopping at red lights in Houston became somehow optional. The driver who hit me was an inexperienced 21 year old male who I WISH had been intoxicated because then he would have at least been arrested as they were flying me to surgery. He just got a ticket for running the light. THAT IS ALL. He was sober. He was driving a pick-up truck, and it turned over on top of my Miata after it hit me. He had some scratches on his leg from kicking out his windshield so he could crawl out. >> It was not only a Miata, it was my first - the car I had wanted for years >> and years and it was less than 6 months old. VERY sad. But happy for me [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > pat >I can say without a doubt that in the accident I was in last August, the >airbag saved my face from going through the windshield. Without an airbag, your seat belt would have prevented that. Seat belts for airbags come with an extension piece to allow the airbag to work. Leon > It didn't keep me >from breaking my leg or wrist or arm or shoulder or pelvis but it kept me [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> >> Pat SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > Your accident could re-ignite a couple of > debates, since it involved attempted accident avoidance on wet roads > (ABS vs. non-ABS) When I learned how to drive and took my test (in Germany, in the 1980s) one of the things we practised was taking our foot off the brake when the wheels locked during an emergency brake. It's quite simple to do really, and has come in very handy on more than one occasion. Granted, having the car do it for you is a pleasant added extra, but I wouldn't consider it vital. Personally, my vote goes for spending the extra money on proper driver-training. Eric >>Your accident could re-ignite a couple of >>debates, since it involved attempted accident avoidance on wet roads [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Eric Avoiding brake lockup is a good practice, especially during corners, but the ABS on a car is doing more for the driver than simply duplicating the effect of releasing the brakes during lockup. Speed sensors monitor each wheel and apply a different amount of braking force to each wheel as needed to maintain control. This is something that we, as humans, are incapable of doing without technological assistance, even if we could somehow work 4 brake pedals at the same time to achieve the optimum braking force for each wheel. As far as proper driver training, that is something that we do not have in the United States unless you go to a fairly expensive driving school, something that very few teenagers do. While getting my driver's license they taught us the road rules and a few safety tips, but not one mention of counter-steering, weight transfer, avoiding brake-lockup, the difference between RWD and FWD, or anything like that. I also think that every student should be required to learn to control a spin-out on a skid pad before they are let loose on the roads. pat > Avoiding brake lockup is a good practice, especially during corners, but > the ABS on a car is doing more for the driver than simply duplicating the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > even if we could somehow work 4 brake pedals at the same time to achieve > the optimum braking force for each wheel. True. Though again I must say I'm not convinced of the necessity of all of this; in my 20 years of driving I've had to make a number of emergency stops and all were fine. Probably largely to do with the fact that I always (try to) leave enough distance between myself and the car in front etc etc. Having said that, I suppose by the same token you could argue that seatbelts aren't necessary if you drive safely, and I *am* pleased that my car has seatbelts, and I do wear them. I guess it's a matter of where you draw the line... > As far as proper driver training, that is something that we do not have in > the United States unless you go to a fairly expensive driving school, > something that very few teenagers do. In Germany you don't have a choice - you *have* to take driving lessons, and yes, they're fairly expensive. There's no such thing as being taught by your father or whoever as is the case in the UK and, I think, in the US. In Germany you have to take at least 25 driving lessons (I think that's how many it was) with a qualified driving instructor. Of those 25 hours, x number (5, I think) have to be done after dark, another 3 or so on a motorway, and so on. Basically, they try to prepare you for any possible driving situation. Because I did my lessons in the winter we also practised skidding and controlling the car on snow and ice, though that wasn't compulsory - I guess simulating that in the summer just isn't possible/practical. I still find it frightening to think that most of the other drivers here in the UK (where I live now) have never had any proper instruction (they've mostly been taught by their father/mother/great-grandfather etc), and until they passed their exam were never allowed to drive on the motorway. That boggles my mind: "You're not allowed to drive on the motorway until you get your license; but once you get your license you're allowed to go 70mph, faster than you've ever driven, on a fast motorway without any supervision or help". Very scary. Eric > True. Though again I must say I'm not convinced of the necessity of all of > this; in my 20 years of driving I've had to make a number of emergency stops [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > seatbelts, and I do wear them. I guess it's a matter of where you draw the > line... I agree with you, just pointing out that ABS will possibly save a driver from a spin-out in an "oh-crap" situation, where many drivers apply full braking when they start to lose it in a corner. This could be especially useful for drivers on this side of the pond who did not receive the training that is required in your country. My last miata that I drove for 5+ years had ABS that was never used to avoid an accident, my current one does not have it, and I don't miss it. > In Germany you don't have a choice - you *have* to take driving lessons, and > yes, they're fairly expensive. There's no such thing as being taught by your [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > compulsory - I guess simulating that in the summer just isn't > possible/practical. With all of the useless laws that are passed in the United States, I would hope that we would require similar training, but unfortunately that is not the case. It would certainly save a lot of lives and bent sheet metal here if we did require it. "Qualified" does not describe my driving advice giver who taught the class where I got my license. I hesitate to call him an "instructor" in any sense of the word. > I still find it frightening to think that most of the other drivers here in > the UK (where I live now) have never had any proper instruction (they've [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Eric Even scarier over here is that many teenagers are getting their parent's aging SUV as their first vehicle. So, you have an inexperienced driver at the wheel of a vehicle that probably shouldn't be on the street in the first place. Definitely VERY scary. Pat > I still find it frightening to think that most of the other drivers here in > the UK (where I live now) have never had any proper instruction (they've [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > faster than you've ever driven, on a fast motorway without any supervision > or help". Very scary. It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite similar across industrialized nations. Each State in the US has its own laws and the end result doesn't change much either. -John > It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite similar > across industrialized nations. Do you have any sources to back this up? I am not disputing you, it just seems logical to me that a country that requires more stringent driver training, especially that focusing on safety, will produce safer drivers than a country that has lesser training. Of course, you don't necessarily drive in the country that you learned in, so that could be a factor as well, especially in Europe. Each State in the US has its own laws and the > end result doesn't change much either. > > -John The driving laws are very similar across the United States. As far as driver training, I am not sure what is required in the states other than Texas, but I'll bet 100 to 1 that not one of the states has driver training requirements that are even close to what Germany requires of their drivers. I would go so far to guess that not even one state requires a skid pad for the students to learn proper emergency vehicle control, though I would like to be proven wrong on that one. Pat > > It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite similar > > across industrialized nations. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Each State in the US has its own laws and the > > end result doesn't change much either. This is the second link from a Google search for "traffic fatality rate international"--but is similar to stuff I've read before. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/e4e3096c63d5bf4fca256dea00053a3c?OpenD ocument Scroll down past the Australia stuff to the bottom. The critical column is 2nd from the right, persons killed per 100 million vehicle km travelled. The US is tied for the lowest rate (of those available), and better than France, Germany, Japan or Switzerland. -John >> > It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite >similar [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >vehicle km travelled. The US is tied for the lowest rate (of those >available), and better than France, Germany, Japan or Switzerland. I do not agree. The critical column is deaths per 100,000 population. How likely are you to die from a traffic accident is clearly the bottom line. Persons killed per 100 Gm traveled just reflects the fact that the size of the US is vast and the population spread out, which has the effect of increasing the distances between the points where accidents are likely to happen and probably make them less dangerous and numerous. The US drivers die at a rate of 15.2, while the educated and civil drivers in the UK die at a rate of 6. I would call that a dramatic difference, much more than I expected. Especially since many US drivers are restrained by fear of lawsuits and people shooting at them from driving more aggressively, like they do elsewhere. Based on these numbers, it seems to me that it could make a dramatic difference if the drivers' education was turned from a joke into something serious. However, there is no mention of these numbers having been adjusted to exclude drunk driving. Then again, a more serious drivers education might also tend to make people more aware of the potential dangers of that. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > >The critical column is 2nd from the right, persons killed per 100 million > >vehicle km travelled. The US is tied for the lowest rate (of those [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > population. How likely are you to die from a traffic accident > is clearly the bottom line. Not at all!! Look at it this way. The UK is the size of just one US state, so hypothetically driving may be something like this: UK: Perhaps 200 trips per year to work (and home) over a 5 mile distance. US: Perhaps 200 trips per year to work (and home) over a 15 mile distance. The death rate per hour in the car is the same if the UK has 5 deaths per population versus 15 in the US. Or. UK: Average driver take 100 trips per year. US: Average driver goes 300 trips per year. The death rate is the same: 5 per pop in the UK equals 15 per pop in the US. Wouldn't you EXPECT truck drivers to have a higher death rate than average drivers? http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5312a3.htm "During 1992--2001, fatal work-related roadway crashes most often involved collisions of vehicles (6,593 [49%]), followed by single-vehicle incidents that did not involve a collision with another vehicle or with a pedestrian (e.g., rollovers) (3,492 [26%]), and collisions between a vehicle and a stationary object (2,369 [18%]). Vehicles most commonly occupied by fatally injured workers were semi-trucks (3,780 [28%]), cars (3,140 [24%]), other and unspecified trucks (2,359 [18%]), and pickup trucks (1,607 [12%]). The annual number of deaths of pickup truck occupants increased 96%, and deaths of semi-truck occupants increased 49%. Deaths of car occupants decreased 33% (Figure). The transportation, communications, and public utilities industries, which include commercial trucking, had the largest number and rate of roadway deaths (4,358 deaths; 4.6 per 100,000 FTE workers) (Table 1). The services industry accounted for the second highest number of deaths (1,884) but had a low fatality rate (0.5). The construction; public administration; wholesale trade; agriculture, forestry, and fishing; and mining industries all had higher death rates than the overall rate for workers (1.1), ranging from 1.7 to 3.4 (Table 1). Occupations in which the largest numbers of roadway deaths occurred were transportation and material moving (6,212 deaths; 11.1 per 100,000 FTE workers). These occupations accounted for 47% of all work-related roadway fatalities (Table 2). Truck drivers, who are classified within transportation and material-moving occupations, accounted for 5,375 deaths (17.6), the highest number and rate for any single occupation. " > Persons killed per 100 Gm traveled just reflects the fact that > the size of the US is vast and the population spread out, which > has the effect of increasing the distances between the points where > accidents are likely to happen and probably make them less dangerous > and numerous. Not at all. See above. We have a lot of high speed accidents and rely on trucking to move food and goods around. We have a lot more top-heavy pick ups that are more likely to be involved in fatal accidents. More time behind the wheel = more chances of having an accident. > The US drivers die at a rate of 15.2, while the educated and > civil drivers in the UK die at a rate of 6. I would call > that a dramatic difference, much more than I expected. See above. When you look at death per hour of driving (original links) the US is very low and this suggests that US drivers are *more* safe in terms of hours spent behind the wheel. > Based on these numbers, it seems to me that it could make a > dramatic difference if the drivers' education was turned from > a joke into something serious. No, just the opposite. See above. -John >> >The critical column is 2nd from the right, persons killed per 100 million >> >vehicle km travelled. The US is tied for the lowest rate (of those [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >The death rate per hour in the car is the same if the UK has 5 deaths per >population versus 15 in the US. Seems to make my point exactly. *You* might not mind having three times the chance of dying before you time, but I and other people do. Miles driven is not a safety concern. It is a count for time lost and fun had, if in a Miata, but has nothing to do with me being concerned about safety. I can exaggerate the numbers to make this clear. Suppose in the US I have to drive 100,000 mi a year to work and have a 50% chance of dying doing it. While in the UK I have to drive 10 miles for a 0.005% chance of dying. Should I be equally concerned, as you suggest, since the deaths per mile is the same? Few would agree with you. Most would prefer the 0.005% chance of dying above the 50%. Suppose the number of dangerous situations encountered in the 10 UK miles is the same as in the 100,000 US miles because of the 10,000 times greater density of the UK. Should I wonder about the competency of me as a US driver, if I have a 10,000 times larger chance of killing myself in an dangerous situation than the driver in the UK? Or should I do as you do and say: "Not to worry, deaths per mile are the same, so no further drivers education is needed."? In short, while as an aerospace engineer, I love to quote accidents per passenger mile to show aviation is safer than driving, that does not mean I believe that sort of thing when my own safety is concerned. For one thing, people would not drive from NY to Amsterdam if they do not want to take the plane; they would take a boat. >Or. > >UK: Average driver take 100 trips per year. > >US: Average driver goes 300 trips per year. The greater expanse of the US suggests longer trips, not more trips for the increased mileage. Nor would more trips directly imply an increase in challenge on drivers' skills. There is still the larger available space. >The death rate is the same: 5 per pop in the UK equals 15 per pop in the US. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >transportation and material-moving occupations, accounted for 5,375 deaths >(17.6), the highest number and rate for any single occupation. " Obviously, it would have been more decisive if you had given us international comparisons of nonprofessional traffic accidents only. But you did not, probably since there are no such data from most countries. I have to draw conclusions on what I have available, and those indicate that there is a real problem in the US, possibly with drivers' skills. The new data above are relatively useless for the issues at hand, since they are per occupation, not per mile. >> Persons killed per 100 Gm traveled just reflects the fact that >> the size of the US is vast and the population spread out, which [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >ups that are more likely to be involved in fatal accidents. More time behind >the wheel = more chances of having an accident. Presumably, the drivers of semi trucks have more skills, and certainly more experience, hence a lower accident rate *per mile*. Hence, if the fraction of professional miles driven in the US is greater than in the UK as you seem to suggest, it would decrease accidents per mile, making accidents per mile for nonprofessional drivers even greater. Maybe there is an effect of misdesigned pick-up trucks increasing deaths in the US, but the figure on the referenced web page shows they are a small part of the accidents anyway. And is driving dangerous top heavy pick-ups itself not an indication of lack of drivers education? >> The US drivers die at a rate of 15.2, while the educated and >> civil drivers in the UK die at a rate of 6. I would call [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >US is very low and this suggests that US drivers are *more* safe in terms of >hours spent behind the wheel. In *your* artificial terms of per hours spend or per mile, sure. In real life terms of how likely they are too die, US drivers are three times worse as the UK and Holland. I would call a factor 3 a big difference. And your new data suggesting that much of all those miles driven that depress the US numbers so much are not just due to greater expanse, but also due to a greater fraction of miles driven by more competent and experienced professional drivers, makes the indications that there is something very wrong with nonprofessional US drivers even stronger. Leon >> Based on these numbers, it seems to me that it could make a >> dramatic difference if the drivers' education was turned from [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >-John SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) >> >The death rate per hour in the car is the same if the UK has 5 deaths per > >population versus 15 in the US. > > Seems to make my point exactly. *You* might not mind having three > times the chance of dying before you time, but I and other people do. As I said in another reply. Driver E goes 3 blocks. Driver A goes 300 miles. If Driver A lives a lifestyle where he goes 3 blocks then his personal lifetime risk will be lower. > I can exaggerate the numbers to make this clear. Suppose > in the US I have to drive 100,000 mi a year to work and have a > 50% chance of dying doing it. While in the UK I have to drive > 10 miles for a 0.005% chance of dying. > Should I be equally concerned, as you suggest, since the deaths > per mile is the same? Few would agree with you. Most would > prefer the 0.005% chance of dying above the 50%. Well, that's the reality of the situation, isn't it? Every minute in motion presents a risk greater than zero. Driving less is safer in all countries and at all times. Put it this way. Driver 1 in the UK drives 100 miles per year at 0.005% risk. Driver 2 in the UK drives 10,000 miles per year at 0.005% risk. Driver 2 is quite obviously more likely to die from driving. > Suppose the number of dangerous situations encountered in the > 10 UK miles is the same as in the 100,000 US miles because of > the 10,000 times greater density of the UK. Most people in the US live in fairly dense urban areas. >Should I wonder > about the competency of me as a US driver, if I have a 10,000 > times larger chance of killing myself in an dangerous situation > than the driver in the UK? Or should I do as you do and say: > "Not to worry, deaths per mile are the same, so no further > drivers education is needed."? Well yes, you shouldn't worry more about it. > In short, while as an aerospace engineer, I love to quote > accidents per passenger mile to show aviation is safer than > driving, that does not mean I believe that sort of thing > when my own safety is concerned. But there's no difference in principle! > The greater expanse of the US suggests longer trips, not > more trips for the increased mileage. Nor would more trips > directly imply an increase in challenge on drivers' skills. > There is still the larger available space. There are many, many interacting factors. Most people in the US live in urban areas. From what I recall (memory) the most fatally dangerous locations are rural intersections with stop signs. > >Wouldn't you EXPECT truck drivers to have a higher death rate than average > >drivers? > Obviously, it would have been more decisive if you had given us > international comparisons of nonprofessional traffic accidents > only. But you did not, probably since there are no such data > from most countries. I have to draw conclusions on what I > have available, and those indicate that there is a real problem > in the US, possibly with drivers' skills. So you'll not research it for yourself? > The new data above are relatively useless for the issues at hand, > since they are per occupation, not per mile. Transportation workers, who spend the greatest amount of time on the road, get killed the most. Deaths per miles driven is a central issue. The expansive size of the US requires more time one the road. > Presumably, the drivers of semi trucks have more skills, and > certainly more experience, hence a lower accident rate *per mile*. Not necessarily. They are known to work double shifts, they are known to take drugs to work longer hours. They can be very aggressive trying to make a deadline. > Hence, if the fraction of professional miles driven in the US is > greater than in the UK as you seem to suggest, it would > decrease accidents per mile, making accidents per mile for > nonprofessional drivers even greater. Not at all. Amateurs may stop driving before they tire out. They may not get as cocky. There's no reason to presume your view is correct. > shows they are a small part of the accidents anyway. And is driving > dangerous top heavy pick-ups itself not an indication of lack > of drivers education? Well...is it the driver or the tools? Classic Jeeps were known for tipping over but they are built to go down narrow dirt roads. Same with the near-recall of the Ford Bronco II in the 80s. It rolled a lot and rolled easily, but that's the trade off of having an off-road capable vehicle. > >See above. When you look at death per hour of driving (original links) the > >US is very low and this suggests that US drivers are *more* safe in terms of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > life terms of how likely they are too die, US drivers are three times > worse as the UK and Holland. I would call a factor 3 a big difference. See above. Driver one in Holland travels 1,000 miles by car in his lifetime. Driver two in Holland travels 1,000,000 miles by car in his lifetime. Which one will be more likey to die in a traffic accident? Deaths per mile driven is the central issue. > And your new data suggesting that much of all those miles driven that > depress the US numbers so much are not just due to greater expanse, > but also due to a greater fraction of miles driven by more competent > and experienced professional drivers, makes the indications that there > is something very wrong with nonprofessional US drivers even stronger. No. There are a million alternative explanations for that. See above. The least complicated interpretation is that more time driving = more accidents. -John Oh come on you guys ! What does this have to do with selling a Miata on Ebay ????? People can go on & on with statistics for ever and ever !!!!! No one person will win because they always bring in a condition that the other one did not figure in. When you are dead, you are dead and not too many people will give a crap. You will just be another statistic to add to te arguement. Give it up and let this poor guy sell his stuff :-) Bruce RED '91 Here is 1 statistic 100% of the human population will die, At the end of the day how you die is not in your control (suicide the obvious exception) its how you live that live that really matters, I would prefer to take a bigger percentage risk and drive a car that makes me happy rather than, drive around in a tank. Even if you drove a tank there is no guarantees in life you could still have a "accident" at work. >>> >The death rate per hour in the car is the same if the UK has 5 deaths > per [quoted text clipped - 139 lines] > > -John >>> >The death rate per hour in the car is the same if the UK has 5 deaths >per [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >Driver 1 in the UK drives 100 miles per year at 0.005% risk. >Driver 2 in the UK drives 10,000 miles per year at 0.005% risk. Unfortunately, we were not discussing comparative death rates between one class of UK drivers versus another. I analyzed the issue at hand, you make one up. >Driver 2 is quite obviously more likely to die from driving. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Well yes, you shouldn't worry more about it. I am speechless. >> In short, while as an aerospace engineer, I love to quote >> accidents per passenger mile to show aviation is safer than [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >So you'll not research it for yourself? Are you kidding or serious? Especially now that Bruce is getting restless? :) >> The new data above are relatively useless for the issues at hand, >> since they are per occupation, not per mile. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >take drugs to work longer hours. They can be very aggressive trying to make >a deadline. There are obviously many factors involved. I can make up hundreds like this for Dutch drivers too. However, I base my beliefs on facts, I do not go hunting for "factoids" that support my preexisting views. Two facts are that drivers' education in the US is a joke and US drivers die at three times the rate of Dutch ones per 100,000. These are facts that count for me. You can keep chasing elusive ghosts if you must. >> Hence, if the fraction of professional miles driven in the US is >> greater than in the UK as you seem to suggest, it would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Not at all. Amateurs may stop driving before they tire out. They may not get >as cocky. There's no reason to presume your view is correct. There is no proof. However, I consider it the most reasonable conclusion. >> shows they are a small part of the accidents anyway. And is driving >> dangerous top heavy pick-ups itself not an indication of lack [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Deaths per mile driven is the central issue. It is. Part of really understanding mathematics is to know when a formulae is appropriate and when it is not. You are like the old Greeks; you discover a formula that you find impressive and then try to bend the facts around it. >> And your new data suggesting that much of all those miles driven that >> depress the US numbers so much are not just due to greater expanse, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >No. There are a million alternative explanations for that. See above. The >least complicated interpretation is that more time driving = more accidents. I prefer the most reasonable explanation above the least complicated, personally. But then, I put together mathematics to describe the facts, not the facts to describe mathematics. Anyway, I am out of here. I have no desire to see what crackpottism you come up to bend around your ludicrous formula small country = slow speeds you stated world traveler. ;)) Leon >-John SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) >It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite similar >across industrialized nations. Each State in the US has its own laws and the >end result doesn't change much either. Let's have the data. Compared to Holland, my drivers' license test in Florida was a complete joke. But of course, over here we have nowhere near the traffic complexity of Holland. Leon >-John SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) Well over here, its unfortunately a case of not what you know but how much you pay to get a drivers license. The thing is though living a densely populated city (Athens) it's a case of you learn very quickly to drive well, if you don't then you will get through a lot of cars very quickly, your concentration levels have to be very high, because you have vehicles, pedestrians, scooters, motorbikes, buses and taxis all around you, near on 24 hours a day, I found that generally in the states people do not really concentrate to hard when driving, of course New York and LA are obvious exceptions as are downtown in many of the major cities, but in the less densely populated cities I have been over there, people are not generally switched on while driving, they are not really completely aware of their surroundings, I was with a mate in San Francisco we were talking about driving standards and I gave him my opinion that in the San Fran area the standards were pretty low, he got pissed off and asked what evidence did I have to back this up, so I put my hand over his rear view mirror and asked him what was behind, he had no idea at all near on every time, in Athens most people have a very good idea of their surroundings most of the time, but then you have to have because road markings are nearly always worn away, sign posts are usually that badly faded of missing all together, the roads are extremely bad so you have to keep a constant eye out for alloy wheel swallowing pot holes, people are of the general opinion that if they have been waiting to cross the road for more than 3 mins they automatically have the right to step out in front of any vehicle, parking is a case of stopping right in front of the place you want to visit, even if there are 20 parking spaces 15 meters further up the road, right turn lanes are there especially for people who are soooo busy and soooo much more important than everyone else, that they can drive down the lane specifically marked as right turn only and at the last mm cut up the guy who has been waiting patiently in the correct lane, causing him to stamp on his brakes, which of course causes a multi car pile up 50 meter further back. Ahhhhhh the joys of living in big cities!!!!!!! Its really a miracle and a testament to the quality of the average Athens driver that the hospitals are not overflowing every rush hour, and its amazing how 1 Malaka (Jerk) can cause so much disruption,. Cheers Mark. >>It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite >>similar [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >>-John >The thing is though living a densely populated city (Athens) it's a case of >you learn very quickly to drive well, if you don't then you will get through >a lot of cars very quickly, your concentration levels have to be very high, >because you have vehicles, pedestrians, scooters, motorbikes, buses and >taxis all around you, near on 24 hours a day, Where would you rank Athens on the scale Rotterdam - Brussels - Paris - Rome - Jakarta? >I found that generally in the states people do not really concentrate to >hard when driving, of course New York and LA are obvious exceptions as are >downtown in many of the major cities, but in the less densely populated >cities I have been over there, people are not generally switched on while >driving, Well over here in Tallahassee they are. Their cell phone is switched on pretty much all of the time. > they are not really completely aware of their surroundings, Here they are. They are fully aware that they are talking on a cell phone. >I was with a mate in San Francisco we were talking about driving standards >and I gave him my opinion that in the San Fran area the standards were >pretty low, he got pissed off and asked what evidence did I have to back >this up, so I put my hand over his rear view mirror and asked him what was >behind, he had no idea at all near on every time, The most challenging part of driving in SF is apparently the hills. That is, if you have a manual. We have had at least one SF Miata owner here whining that a manual Miata was just not possible in SF. I drove some in SF myself, but did not see anything steeper than you can find in mountainous Holland. Leon > in Athens most people have >a very good idea of their surroundings most of the time, but then you have [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Cheers Mark. SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) Never driven in Jakarta But Athens is definitely worse than Rotterdam and Brussels, I have never had any problem in Paris, usually if your on the ring road you at 5kmh or slower anyways, Rome is pretty bad, because the climate is warmer like Greece scooters are very popular, they are the main worry from my experiences. I would honestly say that Athens traffic and standard of driving is worse than all, the only one that comes close in my opinion is Rome, but then a fellow worker was over here for the Olympics he hired a car out but only drove it once, scared him half to death, so that clutches it for me, > The most challenging part of driving in SF is apparently the hills. > That is, if you have a manual. We have had at least one SF Miata > owner here whining that a manual Miata was just not possible in SF. > I drove some in SF myself, but did not see anything steeper than > you can find in mountainous Holland. I've been to SF many times, my main office is there, what complete rubbish the hills are not that bad, Lombard is a farce its no steeper than the roads around it, If you can't do a hill start in a manual you shouldn't be driving one in my opinion, In fact with the ability to modulate the clutch I think I would prefer a manual in hilly areas, I find in my Auto on slippy hills it is difficult to get the power down when pulling from a standstill, you have to apply some power before releasing the brake otherwise the car rolls back, but if you apply to much you get wheel spin, a manual is far easier to control. Where I live in Athens is up the side of a mountain, there are not as many hilly roads but what hilly roads there are, they are steeper and narrower, only difference is that the road surfaces are that bad here that when it rains not even 4x4's can get up most the steeper hills. My Mrs has a 1.4 Renault Megane, if the AC is on the car does not have enough power to make it up the hill!!! There are a bunch of guys from the local Miata club driving to Finland and back this summer, I thought of all the guys on here saying the Miata was no good for large distance travelling, bought a smile to my face. It's extremely weird how general perceptions differ in different parts of the world, I have never met anyone with a Miata in Europe that would think of taking any other car on a tour, I am sure they are out there just I've never met one. Cheers Mark. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leon van Dommelen" <rammm@REMOVE_THIS_TAGdommelen.net> Newsgroups: rec.autos.makers.mazda.miata Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 3:19 AM Subject: Re: Had an accident in my Miata. Selling it on Ebay if anyone is interested. >>The thing is though living a densely populated city (Athens) it's a case >>of [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >> >>Cheers Mark. >Never driven in Jakarta >But Athens is definitely worse than Rotterdam and Brussels, I have never had >any problem in Paris, usually if your on the ring road you at 5kmh or slower I was more thinking of the city centers, not the highways around them. But it has been many years since I was there, maybe it has finally frozen up. I still remember the high-speed multiple lane changes without looking. >anyways, Rome is pretty bad, because the climate is warmer like Greece >scooters are very popular, they are the main worry from my experiences. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >power before releasing the brake otherwise the car rolls back, but if you >apply to much you get wheel spin, a manual is far easier to control. Can't say I have had much trouble, but then I only drive an automatic if I need a rental. Never had much problem taking my foot of the brake while giving gas, but maybe I did not have hills steep enough or cars underpowered enough. >Where I live in Athens is up the side of a mountain, there are not as many >hilly roads but what hilly roads there are, they are steeper and narrower, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >of taking any other car on a tour, I am sure they are out there just I've >never met one. Pet peeve of mine is Americans constantly telling me how small the Miata is. Even while it is a giant compared to the 60's sports cars it was supposed to emulate, and a lot bigger than a typical 4 seater passenger car in Holland used to be too, I think. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) When it comes to what car is suitable to do what, I think it boils down to the fact that some people like to talk about life, analysing every detail, carrying out risk assessment etc. Other just like to live life the best they can making do with what they've got mate. >>Never driven in Jakarta >>But Athens is definitely worse than Rotterdam and Brussels, I have never [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Leon > >It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite similar > >across industrialized nations. Each State in the US has its own laws and the > >end result doesn't change much either. > > Let's have the data. See my reply earlier in the same thread too. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/e4e3096c63d5bf4fca256dea00053a3c?OpenD ocument Also this: http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistics/multi-country_death-r ates_1988-2001.htm The US has an average-to-below-average number of road deaths per population, but the death rate is very very low when looked at in terms of deaths per miles driven. > Compared to Holland, my drivers' license test in Florida was a > complete joke. But of course, over here we have nowhere near > the traffic complexity of Holland. No doubt. -John >> >It doesn't scare me because the actual accident/death rate is quite >similar [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/e4e3096c63d5bf4fca256dea00053a3c?OpenD ocument See my reply there. >Also this: > >http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistics/multi-country_death-r ates_1988-2001.htm > >The US has an average-to-below-average number of road deaths per population, According to your first source, the OECD median is 11, the US is 15.2. I would not call that average to below average. The only two higher in the table are Poland and Korea. I would not call those two fair comparison material, would you? If I look at your second data, taking the latest year, 2002, it seems much the same. The US at 14.9, the UK at 6.1 deaths, as is the Netherlands, BTW. Worse than the US are only Korea, Portugal, Poland, and Greece. Not exactly what I would call fair comparison material, though I have not driven in any of those four countries. However, I did drive in Italy, and that the death rate of the timid US drivers would outnumber that of the aggressive Italians by 27% is just a joke. Leon >but the death rate is very very low when looked at in terms of deaths per >miles driven. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >-John SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > >The US has an average-to-below-average number of road deaths per population, > > According to your first source, the OECD median is 11, the US is 15.2. > I would not call that average to below average. The only two higher > in the table are Poland and Korea. I would not call those two > fair comparison material, would you? That was a typo. I mean average-to-above-average. > If I look at your second data, taking the latest year, 2002, it seems much > the same. The US at 14.9, the UK at 6.1 deaths, as is the Netherlands, > BTW. Worse than the US are only Korea, Portugal, Poland, and Greece. See other reply. UK is a small country with low speed roads, few miles driven and limited trucking. Their accident rate is therefore pretty bad for the environment. > Not exactly what I would call fair comparison material, though I have not > driven in any of those four countries. However, I did drive in Italy, > and that the death rate of the timid US drivers would outnumber that > of the aggressive Italians by 27% is just a joke. Small countries = low speeds. -John > > If I look at your second data, taking the latest year, 2002, it seems much > > the same. The US at 14.9, the UK at 6.1 deaths, as is the Netherlands, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > driven and limited trucking. Their accident rate is therefore pretty bad for > the environment. One other thought, look at it this way. It takes only a 5 second lapse for a person to get into an accident. More hours behind the wheel provides more chances for getting tired, distracted or disoriented. The death per miles driven numbers suggest that may be the root problem. -John But then again someone that drives a lot usually becomes a better driver, just look outside your local school during collection time, all the 4x4's 2 years old with 5k on the clock, yet show me one without a dent. It is a complete waste of time sitting behind your desk, making sweeping statements and generalisations, at the end of the day there is no such word as accident, it is just a word that we tend to use to avoid blame, when someone is involved in an "accident" then it means someone somewhere was to blame. All this talk about hours spent in cars and speed driven and my personal favourite size of a country is complete and utter rubbish, the url we looked at had a higher per capita death rate in Portugal and Greece, 2 pretty small countries in comparison, so where does that leave the argument of small country=slow speed? India is one of the slowest places I have been, it takes hours to get only 50 miles, yet it is one of the biggest countries in the world. I am all for free speech but at least try to gather some correct information and hopefully try to get a few facts straight before you press send. Cheers Mark. >> > If I look at your second data, taking the latest year, 2002, it seems > much [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -John > But then again someone that drives a lot usually becomes a better driver, > just look outside your local school during collection time, all the 4x4's 2 > years old with 5k on the clock, yet show me one without a dent. Joe E drives 3 blocks to the market and gets home without a scratch. Joe A drives 300 miles and gets into an accident. That's what deaths per miles driven says. -John No it does not, Firstly Joe E's scratch does unless he is extremely unlucky result in death. Secondly the figures are an average, Joe A could drive 100k without a crash, but Joe A has a smash every 300 miles, there is no evidence to suggest that high mileage drivers bring down the death per mile rate, as I have mentioned many times before bad drivers cause so called "accidents" it is not mileage specific. Cheers Mark. >> But then again someone that drives a lot usually becomes a better driver, >> just look outside your local school during collection time, all the 4x4's [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -John Sorry guys I just have to rant again. > Small countries = low speeds. I will take a wild guess that you have not travelled much then mate, > See other reply. UK is a small country with low speed roads, few miles > driven and limited trucking. Their accident rate is therefore pretty bad > for > the environment. What complete and utter rubbish, granted the UK has grown more speed camera infested over the past 5 years or so, but funnily enough even with thousands more speed cameras the death rates have gone up. Where the hell do you think up such rubbish from? How the hell do you judge a countries roads, speed limits and "Low speed roads" by its size, Germany is even smaller but has many (fewer each year) speed restriction free Autobahns. And where did you pluck the assumption that people in the UK drive few miles? Limited trucking? Guys it has been proven time and time again, speed has nothing to do with accident rates, bad driving does. Cheers Mark >> >The US has an average-to-below-average number of road deaths per > population, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -John >Sorry guys I just have to rant again. > >> Small countries = low speeds. >I will take a wild guess that you have not travelled much then mate, Here I have to concur. Especially if he speaks about Italy. And typical speeds in the Netherlands are a lot higher than in the US too. When people are driving, that is. And when they are not, they are not adding much miles, are they? I guess I should now count Holland as one of those big countries. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bozo, the White 96 Sebring Miata .) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata EXIT THE INTERSTATES (Jamie Jensen) > Sorry guys I just have to rant again. > > > Small countries = low speeds. > I will take a wild guess that you have not travelled much then mate, Well yes, I have. > What complete and utter rubbish, granted the UK has grown more speed camera > infested over the past 5 years or so, but funnily enough even with thousands > more speed cameras the death rates have gone up. Then *training* per se is not having much effect???? That say's a 3rd factor is involved. > And where did you pluck the assumption that people in the UK drive few > miles? FROM THE TABLE THAT PROVIDES THE DEATH RATES PER MILES DRIVEN. The US has a lot of deaths but a very low deaths per mile driven, therefore they must drive many more miles to produce the number of deaths. > Limited trucking? Large trucks hauling double trailers with sleepy drivers who've been going for 12 hours on caffeine and pills? -John The training (driving test) has not changed much at all over the past few years, as I mentioned before it is my opinion that speed does not on its own kill, bad driving and speed in inappropriate areas kills, driver training does help, but a well trained driver can still drive bad. Do you mean the table that says "na" for nearly half the countries You stated that "UK is a small country with low speed roads, few miles driven and limited trucking" Yet there is no data presented on the table that gives any impression at all of the average miles travelled in the UK!!! What do you mean by Limited trucking? > Large trucks hauling double trailers with sleepy drivers who've been going > for 12 hours on caffeine and pills? We have double trailers and sleepy drivers in the UK. In the UK all trucks are installed with tachographs which documents among other things the hours the driver has spent moving, although drivers do exceed the times stated by law, it is from my experience that this does not happed to often, of course there are no tachographs in cars, and there are many ways to work around this law. Your sweeping statement of "Small countries = low speeds" is firstly dramatically incorrect and secondly arrogant in its response, you have every right to say what ever you want, but you cannot expect to say such rubbish without someone pointing out how very wrong you are, what do you think, that the UK is so small we cannot get enough momentum up to get our cars into top gear???? Cheers Mark >> Sorry guys I just have to rant again. >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > -John Hi Eric, 1 Thing I have noticed on my trips back to the UK, is the standard of driving has dropped dramatically in the 6 years I have left, you can actually see people spending more time looking at their Speedo than they do at the road, it is really scary, there also seems to be very little lane discipline. The only reason I can see foe this are those bloody revenue generators (Speed cameras) what a complete waist of time, plus they are proven not to reduce accidents!!!! On the subject of ABS, it has improved dramatically over the past 5 years, I know for a fact that the 1st and 2nd generations were very bad, in nearly all situations you could stop quicker in a non ABS car, the main problem was the brakes were over served, so it was extremely difficult to modulate the brakes, or even find that point of a fraction before locking up and going ever so slightly either side of it, even my mrs's Megane is the same, dramatically over served and extremely difficult to modulate, the only real advantage I can see with ABS is that it enables not so skilled drivers to turn and brake at the same time. Generally ABS is the term that is used only for the anti lock setups in cars, the brake distribution is usually separate, depending on the manufacturer it is usually called brake assist or something along those lines Still in many cases here in Europe the ABS is still fairly basic, especially on the cheaper family cars, of which there are more sold, basically it detects wheel lock up and releases that particular wheel for a fraction of a second, and that is all ABS really does, in slippery conditions like snow, I have challenged many of my friends, the deal was if they could stop quicker than me in my non ABS car I would give them 50 Euros, I have never had to pay yet. It's also interesting to see the difference on the track, a non ABS car will nearly always out brake a ABS car, its not really a fault with the ABS just the fact the 9 out of 10 times the manufactures moody coddle the public and give the a system that cuts in way too soon. Plus of course you then have the fact that people feel safer in a car with ABS so they usually drive closer to the car in front, or leave their braking slightly later, I had a twat drive into the back of me last summer, he was in a ABS BMW, me in my non ABS MX-5 a bus pulled out in front of me, I stopped without hitting the bus the twat in the BMW didn't. Cheers Mark. >> Avoiding brake lockup is a good practice, especially during corners, but >> the ABS on a car is doing more for the driver than simply duplicating the [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Eric Having just come back from a 3 week trip to Scotland and England where I drove a rental, let me make the following observations: 1. The average driver in the UK is so far superior to the average driver in North America, it totally amazed me. In 3 weeks I observed only 3 drivers talking on the cell phone while driving (yes, I know it is illegal over there but that wouldn't stop a typical North American if he could put down his chicken nuggets and Pepsi long enough to hold the thing.) We were typically driving on very twisty narrow A roads barely wide enough for two cars to pass and yet the oncoming car was always in full control. Levels of courtesy was also far higher. Rules like staying out of the passing lanes on the motorways were generally well adhered to, unlike where I normally drive! 2. As a first time driver in the UK I was allowed to get into a right hand drive car and shift with my "wrong" (left) hand while driving on the "wrong" (left) side of the road, all this without any practice and testing to see if I would kill myself and any oncoming drivers. So whatever testing the UK drivers are submitted to is obviously FAR more than I had, in order to occupy the same roads. In spite of trying to be very careful in the first few days I had a few tense moments, saved only by the quick reflexes and courtesy of the driver nearby. Here in North America I would have been toast! Once I got a bit more practiced I had great fun whether on motorways or twisty rock wall lined single lane roads. Here I am often just frustrated on far larger roads. The only downside was driving the rental car rather than my Miata. Dave > I still find it frightening to think that most of the other drivers here in > the UK (where I live now) have never had any proper instruction (they've [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Eric > Having just come back from a 3 week trip to Scotland and England where I > drove a rental, let me make the following observations: > > 1. The average driver in the UK is so far superior to the average driver > in North America, it totally amazed me. In that case the 'merkins must be atrocious! > 2. As a first time driver in the UK I was allowed to get into a right > hand drive car and shift with my "wrong" (left) hand while driving on > the "wrong" (left) side of the road, all this without any practice and > testing to see if I would kill myself and any oncoming drivers. Same if I go to continental Europe. Most people don't have a huge problem adapting to the different gearchange, unlike going from a new Jap car to a Mk1 MX-5 and wiping the windscreen at every junction ;-) Roger (in the UK) |
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