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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / June 2006Clutch questions
In the last two weeks my 95 Miata (153K miles) becomes extremely difficult to get in gear. Reverse being so impossible that I generally will just push it myself so I don't have to "deal with it". Once it gets warmed up it gets easier but R is still hard. There is very little resistance in the pedal as well. I bought it in 99 (30K miles) off a lease and I am guessing the clutch is the original one since I haven't replaced one. 1. Do you think I need a new clutch? There is no slipping so I am thinking this is not the case. 2. Should I just try to bleed the clutch? 3. Should I go ahead and replace the master and the slave cylinders if I am going to bleed the clutch? I read that once you bleed the clutch, the slave and master goes within 3 months due to the "new" fluid. 4. Do you think it is a linkage problem and I should just take it to the shop?? Thank you in advance! Emma > In the last two weeks my 95 Miata (153K miles) becomes extremely > difficult to get in gear. Peel back the rubber boot at the slave cylinder and look for fluid. If it's wet, rebuild or replace the slave. If it's dry inside, it's probably the master cylinder. Neither is difficult or expensive to fix.  SignatureLanny Chambers '94C, St. Louis http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html I think it is easier to look at the master cylinder reservoir. Much easier access. Fill if needed, see if it cures the problem. Once you have determined that there is fluid loss, go crawling to look for the leaks. >> In the last two weeks my 95 Miata (153K miles) becomes extremely >> difficult to get in gear. > >Peel back the rubber boot at the slave cylinder and look for fluid. If >it's wet, rebuild or replace the slave. If it's dry inside, it's >probably the master cylinder. Neither is difficult or expensive to fix. > In the last two weeks my 95 Miata (153K miles) becomes extremely > difficult to get in gear. Reverse being so impossible that I generally [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thank you in advance! > Emma 1. No. 2. Yes. 3. No, just check them for leakage. New fluid does not harm old cylinders, but old fluid does (it will have absorbed lots of water over the years, because hardly anyone ever changes it). It is a strong possibility that the slave cylinder has developed a leak - they often go at only 60,000 miles. 4. No, although you can check the pedal height if you like. > In the last two weeks my 95 Miata (153K miles) becomes extremely > difficult to get in gear. Reverse being so impossible that I generally [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thank you in advance! > Emma I have a 1990 Miata and had very similar problems. I was thinking in terms of problems within the gearbox, but the problem went away when my garage replaced the master and slave cylinder. See http://www.miata.net/garage/slavecyl.html for more details. I just had my clutch master cylinder fail today. I had already replaced the slave cylinder about six months ago. So, if you're going to change one, it might make sense to change both at the same time, to save the labor of having to bleed it twice (or save you a clutch-less drive home, as I did today). The master cylinder sells for about $50 new, the slave for about $30, and $2 worth of fluid and you're good as new. Keith Monteith '96 M Edition On 6/6/06 9:45 PM, in article Y6SdnbOJ2rEmshvZnZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@rcn.net, >> In the last two weeks my 95 Miata (153K miles) becomes extremely >> difficult to get in gear. Reverse being so impossible that I generally [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > garage replaced the master and slave cylinder. See > http://www.miata.net/garage/slavecyl.html for more details. Hi! Thanks for all of the help. This was my first DIY project with my baby. :) After two weeks of trying - I finally replaced the master, slave, and bled the clutch. Worked like a charm. The hardest part was trying to muscle off those damn bolts and figure out what tools to use. One last quertions - when bleeding the clutch should the car be on or off?? I tried pumping it a million times with it off and nothing. With the car on - a few pumps restored the clutch pedal. I just want to be sure because now that I have had success I am thinking of bleeding the brakes too!! Thanks! Emma It takes two to bleed a clutch properly--or a bleeder kit. Engine should not be running. Just pumping the clutch does not "bleed" a clutch. > Hi! > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Thanks! > Emma Or three to make it especially profitable. But, my lame boyfriend that is no longer my boyfriend was not available. So, I connected tubing to the nipple put the other end in a champagne glass (with brake fluid) that fit nicely behind where the wheel goes. Then I filled the reservoir to the brim. I would pump a couple time, check the reservoir, check the tubing to make sure it was still connected and in the glass. If pumping doesn't bleed the clutch - what does??? Maybe I neglected to mention the tube and unscrewing the bleeder bolt/valve/whatever it is called??? e > It takes two to bleed a clutch properly--or a bleeder kit. > Engine should not be running. Just pumping the clutch does not "bleed" a > clutch. The last time I bled the clutch system, I just opened the bleeder valve, attached a hose and let it gravity bleed into a jar. I was already working under the hood and I only had to top off the reservoir a couple of times, there isn't that much fluid in the clutch system. I did the brakes the same way. It takes longer, especially to the back wheels, but the brake & clutch pedal both feel excellent. Pat There is a fair chance of getting air into the system when you do it this way. Glad it worked for you. > > It takes two to bleed a clutch properly--or a bleeder kit. > > Engine should not be running. Just pumping the clutch does not "bleed" a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Pat > There is a fair chance of getting air into the system when you do it this > way. Glad it worked for you. Why would air get into the system? The heavier fluid pushes it out. As long as the reservoir is topped off, where would the air enter from? Do you mean that it doesn't get all of the air that is already present out instead? Neither has been my experience, as long as the brake and clutch lines always remain lower than the master cylinders it will work. It is important to do this in low humidity, but I only open the hydraulic systems on a really dry day unless there in no other alternative. I have bled my miata brakes at least five times this way with no problems, about six miata clutch systems, and a Toyota Camry and Chevy truck brake service. The Camry brakes have been bled 3 or 4 times. It seems like any "fair chance of getting air the system" would have given me a problem by now. http://www.chtopping.com/StreetRodder5/ "Gravity Bleeding is probably the slowest and least harmful to the system. For gravity bleeding the master cylinder must be higher then the calipers or wheel cylinders. Gravity bleeding is as simple as filling the reservoir (leave the lid off) and opening the brake bleeders. Do not let the reservoir go empty check it periodically or you will have air in the system again. You may want to put the wheel cylinders or calipers in a pan and make sure the bleeders are pointing up." Pat Not getting all the air out of the system might have been a better choice of words on my part. Usually, when I replace something like a slave cylinder, the pump the pedal, hold down, close the bleed valve, release the pedal, then open the bleed valve (leave closed the last time) sequence works the best. (Unless you have one of the fancy check valve type bleeder hoses) Maybe I'm just too impatient to wait for gravity to do all the work! > > There is a fair chance of getting air into the system when you do it this > > way. Glad it worked for you. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Pat > Not getting all the air out of the system might have been a better choice of > words on my part. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Maybe I'm just too impatient to wait for gravity to do all the work! The one web site says that the 'pump-the-pedal' method may not be the best to bleed modern brakes because of the valves involved, but that sounds like crap to me. I can only assume that the brake fluid flows through these valves to stop the car when you press the pedal, so why would it be different when bleeding the system? I have never had a problem bleeding the brakes in the way that you describe, the problem is getting an assistant that understands "down" means down and "up" means up. ;-) Pat >> Not getting all the air out of the system might have been a better choice >> of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Pat I've had poor results using the gravity method of bleeding brakes or clutch. I use a bleeder bottle incorporating a check valve so I can do it with only my foot. > I've had poor results using the gravity method of bleeding brakes or clutch. > I use a bleeder bottle incorporating a check valve so I can do it with only > my foot. On a miata? The only way that it is not going to work on a properly operating brake system is if the fluid lines or calipers are above the master cylinder at any point, or if the bleeder valves are not pointing up for whatever reason. On the miata, (M1 & M2), and the other cars I have worked on, simple physics makes it to where it has to work. Air is not going to enter the bleeder valves while fluid is coming out and there are no high points in the miata brake lines that will trap air. If it had these high points, my brake pedal would feel mushy instead of perfect. Gravity means the fluid is going to go down, and the fact that the fluid will displace the air means that you will be left with no air in the lines. The only way that I can see to get poor results out of gravity bleeding versus other methods on the miata is to not give it enough time. Like I said, 15 or more clutch and brake gravity bleeds on several car models with no problems at all gives me a lot of confidence in this method. I have also used the method that you described. I guess whatever works best for each of us, but I can't believe that I am the only one that is having complete success every time using the gravity method. Pat >> I've had poor results using the gravity method of bleeding brakes or >> clutch. I use a bleeder bottle incorporating a check valve so I can do it [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Pat The hydraulic components in a Miata are virtually identical to many if not most cars. Before retiring I ran my own repair business for 25 years and will rely on my experience, not yours. > The hydraulic components in a Miata are virtually identical to many if not > most cars. > Before retiring I ran my own repair business for 25 years and will rely on > my experience, not yours. Wow, 25 years and you still had problems with something that a shade tree mechanic mastered on his first try. I am very glad that you were not working on my cars. Have a nice day.... :-) Pat >> The hydraulic components in a Miata are virtually identical to many if >> not most cars. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Pat I never had a problem bleeding brakes. Even when trying your touted gravity method that didn't work it wasn't a problem. And what makes you think I would work on your cars? > I never had a problem bleeding brakes. Even when trying your touted gravity > method that didn't work it wasn't a problem. I am confused. The gravity bleeding did not work yet it was not a problem? Or did you then try another method? Please clarify if you don't mind. Did you ever try the gravity method more than once? If so, why? As far as "my" touted method, I did not come up with it, I am sure that people were using it before I was driving, and I even mentioned that the standard pedal push method, whether with a check valve or a helper, will work just fine. > And what makes you think I would work on your cars? You wouldn't. I take my FI miata to real specialists like Corky Bell and Jon Long. I would bet Bill Gate's income versus a janitor's that these guys would have left you in the dust even in your best years. We can agree to disagree or continue to make derogatory comments about each other over something as silly as car maintenance. It really doesn't matter what bleed method we choose, but pulling out your 25 years of repair shop ownership means nothing to me. Pat >> I never had a problem bleeding brakes. Even when trying your touted >> gravity method that didn't work it wasn't a problem. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Pat You are correct. You are confused. > We can continue to make derogatory comments about each other OK, how's this: "Ah don' wanna talk to you no more, you empty-headed animal food-trough wiper! Ah fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!" http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/french.asp |
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