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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / July 2006A/C refrigerant 1991 Roadster
Hi, The air conditioning on my 1991 Eunos Roadster has stopped working, most likely because the refrigerant needs charging up. I took it into a KwikFit (only place around here that would do anything at all with a/c); they had a bit of a look around and announced that the refrigerant needed was an old kind which is now illegal in the UK. I've had a bit of a Google search and it does seem that some older types of refrigerants contained CFCs and are therefore no longer allowed; does anyone know whether the a/c in the 1991 Roadster does indeed use a refrigerant which is now illegal in the UK? Alternatively, if this is nonsense, does anyone know of a shop in the Cambridge, UK area that can recharge my a/c unit? Thanks Eric > The air conditioning on my 1991 Eunos Roadster has stopped > working, most likely because the refrigerant needs charging up. I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > know of a shop in the Cambridge, UK area that can recharge my a/c > unit? A 1991 will use the banned refrigerant (R12), it can be converted to use the later type of refrigerant (134a) by replacing all the oil in the system since the oil in your system isn't compatible with the later refrigerant. Removing and replacing the oil almost certainly requires replacement of the compressor and the receiver/drier (or accumulator, if that's what Mazda uses) along with maybe a couple of other minor parts which is costly. There might be a very slight reduction in cooling with the later refrigerant but it probably won't be noticeable. Oh, the fittings for charging the system may also require replacement as 134a uses different ones. A knowledgeable mechanic will be able to get around that problem, though... If you want air conditioning you really have no choice unless you can find a shop that does have a stock of R12. I don't know the law there but here if a shop has it they are allowed to use it, the ban is on manufacturing the stuff AFAIK. I had my '90 converted a couple of years ago...they didn't have to replace any major parts such as the compressor and/or dryer...just some fittings and the oil. I can't tell any difference in the cold air it puts out vs. what the R12 did. I'm completely happy with the conversion. >> The air conditioning on my 1991 Eunos Roadster has stopped >> working, most likely because the refrigerant needs charging up. I [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > but here if a shop has it they are allowed to use it, the ban is on > manufacturing the stuff AFAIK. You will also pay a large fortune for R12 if you can find it. > > The air conditioning on my 1991 Eunos Roadster has stopped > > working, most likely because the refrigerant needs charging up. I [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > but here if a shop has it they are allowed to use it, the ban is on > manufacturing the stuff AFAIK. If anyone here is from Raleigh, NC. I know a shop that will recharge R12. Yes it is expensive, but IMO my '93 Ranger with R12 is colder than my wife's 2004 Toyota R134A. Thanks for the information, anyone. Looks like I'll be putting my a/c out to farm; it's not really worth converting it to the new refrigerant. Thanks Eric Update: I've just phoned a few companies and have found one that uses a "drop in" refrigerant, RS-24 (http://www.car-air-conditioning-supplies.com/carshop/product.php?productid=80&ca t=0&page=1 - that's not the company offering to do the recharging, but I assume that's the same stuff). It supposedly works in R12 units without needing to convert anything else, and is affordable (UK£65 for a recharge, about US$100). Has anyone tried this and is it any good? By the way, I've found various websites that confirm what BK said, that only various fittings and the oil need to be changed when converting a system from R12 to R134a, but I've yet to find anywhere here that will actually do any kind of conversion so at the moment the RS-24 looks attractive if it's likely to be ok. Eric > Update: I've just phoned a few companies and have found one that > uses a "drop in" refrigerant, RS-24 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to convert anything else, and is affordable (UK£65 for a recharge, > about US$100). Has anyone tried this and is it any good? I don't know anyone who's tried it, let us know if it works! > By the way, I've found various websites that confirm what BK said, > that only various fittings and the oil need to be changed when > converting a system from R12 to R134a, Correct but misleading. It's pretty much impossible to remove the oil from the receiver/drier, it needs to be replaced. The compressor can be drained but that almost always requires that it be removed. If you try and convert w/o removing *all* the old oil you'll have some problems a couple of years down the road with leaking seals, etc. As for the fittings, they don't need to be changed IF you have a reasonably savvy AC guy, he can use a gauge set with hoses that will fit the old fittings to charge with R134a. >> Update: I've just phoned a few companies and have found one that >> uses a "drop in" refrigerant, RS-24 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I don't know anyone who's tried it, let us know if it works! Will do. I did some more research on the net and found various companies in the UK that offer a recharging service with RS-24 for old R12 units, and one forum on which someone said they'd had it done and were happy with it, so it appears to be legit. I've booked the local guy for tomorrow to do the recharge so will let you know how it goes. Supposedly using anything but the manufacturer's recommended materials, i.e. R12, will invalidate any component or manufacturer's warranties, but given that only cars built before 1992 or so will be using R12 I'd say this is an academic argument. In case anyone is interested, some good references/examples I found are http://www.refsols.com/RS-24_p1.html http://www.eurocarparts.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6076 I'm surprised nobody here has used this - is RS-24 not available in the US then? Apparently it also goes under the name R426a - does that ring any bells? Eric Right, the guy has just been and gone and has recharged my Roadster's a/c with RS-24 refrigerant. The process was as described at http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/acrecharge.htm (checking the system for leaks, creating a vacuum in it to get rid of any moisture, adding oil and dye to be able to check for any slow leaks, vacuuming again, filling up with RS-24) and it's now nice and cold again. I can't really compare it properly to what is used to be like since I never took a temperature reading when the R12 was still in it but it certainly feels properly cold. It cost UK£65 for the whole thing including him coming here to my house to do it so I'm happy! Eric > Right, the guy has just been and gone and has recharged my > Roadster's a/c with RS-24 refrigerant. The process was as [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > UK£65 for the whole thing including him coming here to my house to > do it so I'm happy! Great, glad it works. It's nice to know there is a replacement for R12. Eric, please keep up posted on your experiences with the new fluid. Although 1 or 2 airco-shops in the Netherlands still recharge with R12 it is always good to know what's new... As a commissioner of the Technical Committee of the MX-5 Club of the Netherlands I can give feedback to our members regarding this subject. Jeroen Feelders MX-5 Club of the Netherlands http://www.mx5club.nl | Right, the guy has just been and gone and has recharged my Roadster's a/c | with RS-24 refrigerant. The process was as described at [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | | Eric > Eric, please keep up posted on your experiences with the new fluid. > Although [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > MX-5 Club of the Netherlands > http://www.mx5club.nl OK, some more info now that I've been driving with the new refrigerant for a week or so. In general, it "feels" nearly - but not quite - as cold as the original R12. As I said I never measured the temperature with the R12 before it ran out, but on several occasions I'd be driving with the top up and the air-con on 1 or 2 and turned down all the way; after a while I'd get too cold and would have to turn it less cold. With the new refrigerant that hasn't happened; I can drive pretty much as long as I like with it on 1 and turned down all the way without getting too cold. Then again we're having a particularly hot summer so perhaps the outside temperature is just hotter than in the past, and the a/c is having to work harder. Some temperatures I measured today: Outside temperature: 31 (centigrade, as all the other temps here) Temperature of air coming out of blower, on 2 and turned down all the way: 11 Temperature in cockpit with blower on 2 and turned down all the way: 16 - 17. It maintains this when turning the blower down to 1 once it's got down to that temperature. An ambient temperature of 31 isn't all that hot this year - we've had 35/36, but on those occasions I haven't had a thermometer to hand (funnily enough I don't carry one around with me wherever I go :-)) I might get around to measuring the cockpit temperature at an outside temp of 35, then again I might not. (And yes yes, I know I know - 35 probably isn't all that hot for some of you, but for the UK it's really something). Hope that's useful! Eric |
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