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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / July 2006What can you say?
Sorry if long..... I finally got to go do a long anticipated driving trip to Phoenix (from Houston!) with my 'lil brother (and his RX-8 :). After much research, I planned a Phoenix / Globe / Safford / Clifton (US 191) / Eager / Show Low / Globe / Phoenix, round trip. Those of you who don't know, US 191 is the DESTINATION of this drive! It's commonly referred to as a 100 mile version of the Tail of the Dragon! Well, I wish I could weigh in on that analogy but I wasn't so lucky. We traveled the 200+ miles to get to 191 (decent roads) and we were probably 15 miles into 'the good stuff' when my clutch started to go south! Ya, not good! So, here I am in heaven and my clutch is completely gone. We hadn't really been working it that hard (mostly second gear thrusts) but I hoped letting it cool off at a tiny pull off might help but.......NOOOOOO, life can be cruel! I couldn't see fluid leaking from the cylinder and the level was good so I was confused (and wishing for this group). Forward (more than 100 miles to civilization) or back (15 miles to semi-civilization, another 25 to kinda-civilization, 200+ back to Phoenix), left little room for debate. Using all the nasty little tricks I know to start (in gear w/o clutch), and to shift my injured car, we hobbled back to the first town where "nobody round here would probably know the first thing bout a Mazda". To the second town where several places could work on them for-in cars but, they were all booked up for a week to ten days and it takes that long to get parts after diagnosis too! Since I was supposed to be heading back to H-town to start a new job two days later........... we decided to limp it all the way back after making an appointment with a really friendly service guy at Berge Mazda in Phoenix for the next day (luckily my bro had purchase / service history there along with the phone #). Crazy thing is, by the time we got back the clutch seemed to be operating normally. I didn't want to put it to any real 'test' but it seemed fine. Had them check it out thinking that maybe I'd induced an air bubble into the system when I changed out the fluid in the cylinder trying to be smart, prior to the trip. Right or wrong they decided that I needed the re-build and I was in no position to argue or gamble so I gave them the go-ahead and they fixed me up for just over $300 (including both master and slave). Luckily we had gotten in a decent drive previously on Rt 88 from Apache Junction up to what I think was Apache Lake. We ran it back and forth a couple of times and I can firmly attest to the "8" being an AMAZING car and to the Miata being one hell of an over achiever when asked! I can also say that the new Falken Azenis 615's did very well although going through the learning curve of a new tire while on cliff edges might not be ideal, they were quite grippy and predictable. Sorry to ramble but, if you get a chance, say hey to Eric at Berge Mazda (and another guy at service was great to me but I can't find his card), he's contemplating a Renisis RX-8 engine swap into his 99 Miata! I must say that the part of US 191 that I drove lacked the feeling of perfectly choreographed corners that the Tail of the Dragon has. I hope I get to confirm or debunk this impression some day by driving the full route! Chris 99BBB > Those of you who don't know, US 191 is the DESTINATION of this drive! It's > commonly referred to as a 100 mile version of the Tail of the Dragon! I drove 191 years ago on a trip to AZ, coming in on 78 from NM. I was actually feeling carsick by the time I got off 78 from the endless roller-coaster ride. 191 I don't remember as being particularly fun (and of course I didn't drive the northern portion) but I do have a strong memory of driving over the pass towards Safford when suddenly an extremely loud noise rapidly built up - I had about 2 seconds to decide some kind of semi was about to drive over me from the rear, when I saw the jet fighter break out of the overcast just above me and thunder off towards Safford. Scared the bejabbers out of me, it did! miker >> Those of you who don't know, US 191 is the DESTINATION of this drive! It's >> commonly referred to as a 100 mile version of the Tail of the Dragon! > > I drove 191 years ago Damn you're old.  SignatureGrant Edwards grante Yow! Give them at RADAR-GUIDED SKEE-BALL visi.com LANES and VELVEETA BURRITOS!! Thanks for the memories I drove the Coronado Trail (US 666/ US 191) in the summer of 1969 on my return trip to Kansas after my freshman year at the University of Arizona. Driving my MG Midget over this scenic road was a love/hate experience for this Kansas City flatlander. Would love to do the road today in my Miata. Desordre > Those of you who don't know, US 191 is the DESTINATION of this > drive! It's commonly referred to as a 100 mile version of the Tail > of the Dragon! Well, I wish I could weigh in on that analogy but I > wasn't so lucky. I've been over both. US 191 (formerly 666 but changed because of religious idiots) is a fun road with lots of curves. The Tail of the Dragon is a mostly straight boring road by comparison. > > Those of you who don't know, US 191 is the DESTINATION of this > > drive! It's commonly referred to as a 100 mile version of the Tail [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > religious idiots) is a fun road with lots of curves. The Tail of the > Dragon is a mostly straight boring road by comparison. It's best attacked from the south end, where the speed limit is marked (white sign) as 10 mph, so they won't need yellow SAFE SPEED signs on every corner. For the first ~30 miles, you won't use third gear much, and fourth not at all; some of the hairpins require first. Treat it as a high-stakes autocross and you may not survive: with no guardrails, this is no place to overcommit. Watch out for sections where the outer lane has fallen into the canyon! That 30 miles will leave you exhausted, mentally if not physically. The rest of the journey is more relaxed, a beautiful, twisty drive through mountain scenery. Very little traffic--we always see more deer than cars. SignatureLanny Chambers '94C, St. Louis http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html >> > Those of you who don't know, US 191 is the DESTINATION of this >> > drive! It's commonly referred to as a 100 mile version of the Tail [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > rest of the journey is more relaxed, a beautiful, twisty drive through > mountain scenery. Very little traffic--we always see more deer than cars. Greetings, Where you say "It's best attacked from the south..." are you talking about US 191 or Tail of the Dragon? tia, Steve (99 Black & Tan) > Where you say "It's best attacked from the south..." are you > talking about US 191 or Tail of the Dragon? I don't know what Lanny means but I've almost always started 191 from the south. In the summer it takes you from desert to mountains and it's much cooler at 9,000 feet (Hanigan's Meadows) than it is at 3,400 feet (Clifton). You really don't want to do 191 in the winter although I've usually done it on a motorcycle, maybe with a heater it might be better? As for the Tail of the Dragon, I've never done it in a car. > Where you say "It's best attacked from the south..." are you talking about > US 191 > or Tail of the Dragon? US 191. Deal's Gap has too much traffic (especially slow Miatas) and too many cops to be attacked properly. Those days are probably gone forever. SignatureLanny Chambers '94C, St. Louis http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html > Deal's Gap has too much traffic (especially slow Miatas) We can't all have white ones.... I think you're exaggerating the situation a bit. During 'big' weekends, and in the prime time of the day, yes, you're most likely to be held up at some point but, even on the MATG 05, I was able to go early morning and to a lesser degree, late evening and get a good "up and back" run. The scary part is that some big trucks, trailers, RV's and so much more occasionally come through there in the 'off' hours and sometimes badly cross the center stripe! Now that's scary. XS11 is HEAVILY EXAGGERATING or he's just never been to the gap. Nothing makes it seem straight or boring by comparison! Chris 99BBB >> Where you say "It's best attacked from the south..." are you talking >> about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > US 191. Deal's Gap has too much traffic (especially slow Miatas) and too > many cops to be attacked properly. Those days are probably gone forever. > XS11 is HEAVILY EXAGGERATING or he's just never been to the gap. > Nothing makes it seem straight or boring by comparison! You've not ridden 191 or any one of hundreds of western highways if you think Deal's Gap is anything special. I've been on dozens of roads that are twistier. Beartooth pass, Snowy Mountain pass, the road up Mt. Evans, The Salt River Canyon, White Spar Road, etc. etc. etc. I found Deal's Gap a massive disappointment, I'd not been over the road for many years and I'd forgotten just how tame it is... very scenic but not much of a challenge on a motorcycle. Just the normal Saturday morning ride to Tortilla Flat has more turns per mile than Deal's Gap and the turns are much tighter although the interesting part of the trip is fairly short... > XS11 is HEAVILY EXAGGERATING or he's just never been to the gap. Nothing > makes it seem straight or boring by comparison! By the same token, you'll need to experience the elevation changes and sheer dropoffs of US 191 before you can evaluate the degree of exaggeration. The road crosses a couple of mountain ranges. REAL mountains, not those eastern hills. SignatureLanny Chambers '94C, St. Louis http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html > By the same token, you'll need to experience the elevation changes and > sheer dropoffs of US 191 before you can evaluate the degree of > exaggeration. The road crosses a couple of mountain ranges. REAL > mountains, not those eastern hills. If US 191 has that many more turns, and "much" tighter ones than the turns at the Gap, yet also has sheer dropoffs, then this sounds like an extremely dangerous road to be doing highly spirited driving on, much less going almost all-out. I don't want the drive to be boring, which the Gap was not by any means, but I don't want stupid driving either. Deal's Gap isn't exactly a safe road, only two lanes and lots of trees to hit if you are forced to suddenly leave it. I wouldn't want anything to make it more dangerous. It is a public road, after all, with normal drivers, not a racetrack with professional drivers. Besides which, Indy car drivers don't need the possibilty of falling down a mountainside for excitement, and neither do I. Pat > If US 191 has that many more turns, and "much" tighter ones than the > turns at the Gap, yet also has sheer dropoffs, then this sounds like an > extremely dangerous road to be doing highly spirited driving on, much > less going almost all-out. Thus my caution against outdriving your visibility. Between debris on the road and roadway that's simply disappeared downslope, overcommitment is natural selection looking for a place to happen. But there are plenty of places where you *can* see far enough ahead to have some real fun. SignatureLanny Chambers '94C, St. Louis http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html > Thus my caution against outdriving your visibility. Between debris on > the road and roadway that's simply disappeared downslope, overcommitment > is natural selection looking for a place to happen. But there are plenty > of places where you *can* see far enough ahead to have some real fun. Ok, I can agree with that. What I can't agree with, and it wasn't your statement, is that ANY public road makes the gap seem straight and boring. (traffic is a separate issue, we are talking about the road itself) Besides being located in the most beautiful part of the country that I have ever been to, (those Eastern Hills), I just don't think that people would gather there in so many different car and motorcycle groups if it was boring. Everyone that I have personally talked to that has driven it has said it has been a blast as long as they drove it at the right time and didn't get stuck behind someone going slow. If the road was curvier or had sheer dropoffs, it would have just required driving slower to be at least somewhat responsible on a public roadway. You already have to exercise extreme care when driving Deals Gap to avoid head-on collisions and running into trees, even if XS11E has driven roads that make it look like a stretch of West Texas highway by comparison. (yeah, right) Pat >> If US 191 has that many more turns, and "much" tighter ones than the >> turns at the Gap, yet also has sheer dropoffs, then this sounds like an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is natural selection looking for a place to happen. But there are plenty > of places where you *can* see far enough ahead to have some real fun. I used to live on the edge of the Rockies and did this several times when I was (much) younger. Once on a vt500 Honda on Going to the Sun Rd in Glacier park I failed to notice the big "caution 15 mph" sign indicating a 90 degree switchback. Of course there was a big motorhome taking up all of his lane and half of mine. Rock face on one side, 1000' drop on the other. I slammed it on the cases and around I went. Not sure of the speed, but it was much more than 15 mph. It was just a little thing and it was over in a flash. But I was right at the limit with no room to spare. I could have just as easily ended up under the wheels of that motorhome, just another dumb kid going too fast. I was a careful rider and never had an accident. But I could have. It can happen to anyone. A small lapse at the wrong time is all it takes. > If US 191 has that many more turns, and "much" tighter ones than > the turns at the Gap, yet also has sheer dropoffs, then this > sounds like an extremely dangerous road to be doing highly > spirited driving on, much less going almost all-out. Yes, so is Deal's Gap so are most city streets, so is your driveway. There was a waterfowl dealer in Tucson who organized a group of his customers and every year they'd take their Ducs and Geese (Ducatis and Moto Guzzis) to the Ruidoso rally over 191 (not the best way but the most fun). Every year the ride would turn into a race and every year they'd lose one or more bikes, a couple of times they lost riders. That's possible to do on any road. If you go faster than you know how to ride/drive you're going to crash and it doesn't make any difference what road you're on. > There was a waterfowl dealer in Tucson who organized a group of his > customers and every year they'd take their Ducs and Geese (Ducatis and > Moto Guzzis) to the Ruidoso rally over 191 (not the best way but the > most fun). Hey, on one of our August trips up 191 we chatted with a couple of Guzzi riders at the gas station (you know, the only one south of Alpine). It was late in the day, and I'm guessing they were rally stragglers not trying to keep up with the crazies. We admired their bikes, they admired our Miata. SignatureLanny Chambers '94C, St. Louis http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html > Yes, so is Deal's Gap so are most city streets, so is your driveway. So we agree on something, though my driveway is much too long to be very dangerous regarding vehicle wrecks unless you were to try to crash. It would be impossible for a car to wreck into it from the street and get anywhere near the house or garage. You may have noted that I said that Deals Gap is not a very safe road. > There was a waterfowl dealer in Tucson who organized a group of his > customers and every year they'd take their Ducs and Geese (Ducatis and > Moto Guzzis) to the Ruidoso rally over 191 (not the best way but the > most fun). Every year the ride would turn into a race and every year > they'd lose one or more bikes, a couple of times they lost riders. > That's possible to do on any road. Of course they did. Professional racing is not safe, road racing is even less so. The difference is that pro racers know the score and are only sharing the (usually closed) track with other people who have agreed to take the increased risks. It is when that road racing causes a wreck with a vehicle that was taking no part in the racing activities that it becomes very uncool. > If you go faster than you know how to ride/drive you're going to crash > and it doesn't make any difference what road you're on. True enough, but if the person does lose it, whether due to driver error, mechanical error, or something like hitting an animal, grinding against a guard rail is probably preferable to taking a long plung over a cliffside. Pat |
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