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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / September 2006God d*mned SUVs
WARNING: This post serves no purpose other than to rant and rave. Last night we went to our first antenatal class. Nice, small group (5 couples), all very friendly, how nice. As we all left I saw parked behind my MX5, back-to-back so to say along the curb, one of those ludicrously huge SUVs. I remember thinking to myself "Look at the size difference between our cars; I hope I never have a tangle with one of them". One of the other couples got into the monstrosity, started up the engine and - you guessed it - reversed right into the back of my car with a sickening crunch. They got out and were very apologetic. We had a look at the back and couldn't really see much damage to the bumper which seemed surprising because of the loud noise, but I said I'd look closer in the daylight and then let him know what the damage was. After we got home I thought about the scrape-marks on my bumper and thought they were odd: the main damage to the bumper was scrape marks on the top of my bumper. After thinking about it I thought that what might have happened was that due to the height difference of our two cars the underside of his bumper might have scraped against the top of my bumper, with his entire bumper then riding up mine and proceeding to smash against the actual back of my car into the license-plate panel, rather than the two bumpers colliding. I got out my flashlight and had a look, and sure enough, that's what had happened - there's a big crack in the license-plate panel, and only scrapes to the top of my bumper. I've always hated SUVs out of principle, because they're plain stupid vehicles, but now I have a personal grievance with them as well. They really should be banned; there's absolutely no reason why a mid-30s couple with no kids living in Cambridge which is as flat as a pancake should be driving such a monstrosity. Amen. Thank you for listening. Eric I agree wholeheartedly. Curiously, If it's "Peoples Republic of Cambridge,Ma." you refer to, That's exactly where I acquired my "Roadster fetish" as a young man. Triumphs everywhere, TR3's, Spifires, TR6's. They're were plenty of other roadsters also, some gorgeous long-hooded Austin Healey's I remember to this day. But I was partial to Triumphs. What goes around, comes around, I guess.  SignatureI work for the ILEC ...." stuff happens! " > WARNING: This post serves no purpose other than to rant and rave. > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Eric > I agree wholeheartedly. Curiously, If it's "Peoples Republic of > Cambridge,Ma." you refer to, It's not, I'm in the original one in the Queen's Realm. Though I think the two are probably equally flat, aren't they. > That's exactly where I acquired my "Roadster fetish" as a young man. > Triumphs everywhere, TR3's, Spifires, TR6's. On account of the high student population perhaps? Eric Replied inline.. >> I agree wholeheartedly. Curiously, If it's "Peoples Republic of >> Cambridge,Ma." you refer to, > > It's not, I'm in the original one in the Queen's Realm. Though I think the > two are probably equally flat, aren't they. Cambridge, Ma. is quite "flat" >> That's exactly where I acquired my "Roadster fetish" as a young man. >> Triumphs everywhere, TR3's, Spifires, TR6's. > > On account of the high student population perhaps? No doubt. We're talking Harvard, MIT, and a slew of other schools. SignatureI work for the ILEC ...." stuff happens! " > They really > should be banned; there's absolutely no reason why a mid-30s couple with no > kids living in Cambridge which is as flat as a pancake should be driving > such a monstrosity. How about "Because we got it free via a 100% business tax writeoff"? Oops, that's stupid government, not people. ;) miker > How about "Because we got it free via a 100% business tax writeoff"? That might apply to you left-pondians, but not to us over here on the island. All the less reason for people to have one over here. > Oops, that's stupid government, not people. ;) Erm... And the difference is??? ;-) Eric > WARNING: This post serves no purpose other than to rant and rave. > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Eric I will make a guess on the reason. It is called fashion. Their neighbors and friends had one, gas was very cheap, and it let everyone see their trend-mobile in the driveway, because it probably didn't fit in the garage. I'll bet that it seemed like a good idea at the time. Now, they are lucky to get anything near the "value" of the vehicle back on a trade-in, and SUV's are not exactly commanding top dollars with private buyers either. Compare that to the long waiting list for electric hybrid cars. People thought that gas was going to stay at just over a buck a gallon forever. I do see a difference between the huge monstrosities and the "large, high-riding station wagons", as I call them, but I would still just rather have a station wagon if I needed to carry kids and cargo. Pat > I will make a guess on the reason. It is called fashion. Their neighbors > and friends had one, gas was very cheap Gas (or petrol as we call it over here) has never been cheap so that one doesn't wash. The fashion part can be the only reason. >, and it let everyone see their trend-mobile in the driveway, because it >probably didn't fit in the garage. Too right, especially not the tiny garages you get over here. > I'll bet that it seemed like a good idea at the time. Now, they are lucky > to get anything near the "value" of the vehicle back on a trade-in, and > SUV's are not exactly commanding top dollars with private buyers either. From what I could see it was pretty new. Actually, come to think of it, he must have caught the SUV bug in the US: he said that he flies to the US regularly on business, so that was probably where he got the idea. Hopefully this accident will jack up his insurance premiums even more (they must be astronomical as it is - insurance for any decent-sized car in the UK is very expensive) and encourage him to get rid of the thing. Mind you, that doesn't completely remove it from the road, but at least it might be some form of discouragement. Eric >>I will make a guess on the reason. It is called fashion. Their neighbors >>and friends had one, gas was very cheap > > Gas (or petrol as we call it over here) has never been cheap so that one > doesn't wash. The fashion part can be the only reason. I forgot that you live across the pond. The effect of the gas price increase over here has been funny in a way. I don't like paying more myself, but it has not greatly impacted my lifestyle. With literally half of the vehicles in my area being pickup trucks and SUV's, the bitching about gas costs is constant and people are driving much slower in general when driving these behemoths, doing anything they can to delay the next $80.00 fillup. It sounds like this guy has money, which lets him roll in a Hummer if he wants to. At least you are likely to get your car repair paid for. When I was hit from behind, it was much lesser but it did do damage and the driver had no insurance and a vehicle that barely ran. Pat > It sounds like this guy has money, which lets him roll in a Hummer if he > wants to. Right, he must do, especially since the thing seemed to have all the extras and gadgets in the front as well. > At least you are likely to get your car repair paid for. When I was hit > from behind, it was much lesser but it did do damage and the driver had no > insurance and a vehicle that barely ran. I'm astounded by hearing all these stories of people driving in the US without insurance. In the UK I'm sure it happens but it's fairly challenging to do. In order for a car to be allowed on the road, it has to display a road tax sticker which has to be renewed every year. In order to get that sticker you have to provide evidence of insurance and MOT (the test that proves that the car is roadworthy). It *is* possible for there to be pockets of time in which one or the other has run out (e.g. the insurance might be up for renewal in August and you don't renew it and it doesn't come to light until you try to renew your road tax in October, or whatever) but in general I get the impression it's quite rare for a car/driver to be uninsured. Aren't there such mechanisms in the US to ensure drivers are insured? Eric > I'm astounded by hearing all these stories of people driving in the US > without insurance. In the UK I'm sure it happens but it's fairly challenging [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Eric It varies somewhat from state to state, but in Texas you need to show proof of insurance to have the car inspected, (your MOT), and to pay for the registration sticker each year, which I assume is similar to your road tax sticker. The car only has to be insured at that exact time for the stickers, however, so it is possible to get it insured for a short period of time, take care of the two annual requirements on the same day, and then drop the insurance for the rest of the year. You can also simply let the insurance lapse or directly cancel anytime and you won't have a problem other than at sticker renewal time again unless you either get pulled over or get into an accident. The insurance paper that you show the officer is a joke too. It can be a fax from the insurance company. This won't help in an accident, but any decent fake is not likely to be noticed by a cop unless something else is going on to make them suspicious. Scan your old one, change the date, print it out and away you go. I heard that they will be changing this to a verifiable insurance system soon where they can tell if the car is truly insured as easily as they can tell if it is inspected. I hope so, even though the costs will be passed on to us as usual. Doing this does carry a fairly large penalty if enforced, with probably an additional charge or two as well if you try deception with a fake document. Pat "Aren't there such mechanisms in the US to ensure drivers are insured?" Yes, several different ones. The classic method is for the state issuing the license tag to check for valid insurance before the tag or sticker is issued. (Usually once a year.) If the insurance is cancelled, the insurance company supposedly is required to notify the state and the owner. In this state, insurance is checked when a cop makes a traffic stop, and the insurance companies are required to keep current information on a cop accessable data base. (This only applies to state residents) Can't tell you how many times I've gone out into a parking lot and haven't been able to find my car...walking around...looking...I know I parked right by here!...oh there it is...hidden between a Suburban and and Expedition. My boss drives one of those monsters. I tell her we could save a lot of money if she'd just get a removable ramp and let me park my car in the back of her SUV for carpooling. Oh!Oh! My other "Why I Hate SUV" problems? HEY! You! In the tank! Yeah, YOU. The one going 50mph on a 30mph residential street? Yeah, YOU. Did you really HAVE to drive through the water standing by the curb without slowing down so I feel like I'm going through a car wash when you heave that wave over the top of my car? a.shole??? Truly though I think the worst thing about them is what that kind of mass and power does to the psychology of the driver. When you get behind the wheel of one of those things you feel invincable. Seriously. SUV drivers are the most aggresive drivers I've ever seen. I think they don't worry about getting in an accident because they're going to win that crash almost every time. And red lights? P'shaw. > WARNING: This post serves no purpose other than to rant and rave. > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Eric > Can't tell you how many times I've gone out into a parking lot and haven't > been able to find my car...walking around...looking...I know I parked right [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > getting in an accident because they're going to win that crash almost every > time. And red lights? P'shaw. Just think, Eric only has to deal with a small percentage of the SUV's that we do, especially in Texas. If gas prices had been this high in the U.S when the silly things were introduced, the fad would have never taken off and Ford would not have been able to sell MILLIONS of those high-profit, unsafe, piece of crap Exploders to the masses of gullible buyers. We talk about the large numbers of miatas that have been sold, Ford was selling over 400,000 Explorers a year for a long time. It is one of the most common vehicles of any type that I see on the road. The Chevy Suburban is not far behind. Now these monster SUV's are a dying animal except to the people who make decent money, and it is worth the extra price at the pump for me to see it happen. Pat > My boss drives one of those monsters. I tell her we could save a lot of > money if she'd just get a removable ramp and let me park my car in the > back of her SUV for carpooling. Hah, I like it :-) > Oh!Oh! My other "Why I Hate SUV" problems? HEY! You! In the tank! Yeah, > YOU. The one going 50mph on a 30mph residential street? Speaking of which - in my annoyance yesterday I spent some time Googling SUVs just to see what came up, and one interesting thing is that SUVs are, at least in California, actually illegal to drive in most residential areas (http://www.slate.com/id/2104755 ). Most residential roads apparently forbid trucks of 6,000 pounds or over to drive on them, and most SUVs are just larger than that in order to be eligible for the tax breaks. However, the law doesn't seem to be enforced for SUVs - which is a shame. Wouldn't it be nice if a lobby got together to force the law to be enforced? That would get rid of a few more. Part of the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_utility_vehicle ) made me snort: "SUVs also allow drivers to connect on an aesthetic level with the physical environment - by allowing owners to go off road, SUVs promote a greater value being applied to wilderness areas, an attachment difficult to gain through reading or simply seeing things on television." Allow drivers to connect with the physical environment my heini. As you point out, people in SUVs are so ensconced by metal they have no idea of their surroundings whatsoever. If you want to go out in the wilderness in order to appreciate it then cycle or walk there, don't drive around in it in a tank. Eric > Most residential roads apparently forbid > trucks of 6,000 pounds or over to drive on them, and most SUVs are just > larger than that in order to be eligible for the tax breaks. However, the > law doesn't seem to be enforced for SUVs - which is a shame. Wouldn't it be > nice if a lobby got together to force the law to be enforced? That would get > rid of a few more. No, it would get the law changed to 7,000 pounds (or whatever). SUVs are expensive, and their owners have clout. If SUVs were cheap, there'd be little attraction in driving one. SignatureLanny Chambers '94C, St. Louis http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html > No, it would get the law changed to 7,000 pounds (or whatever). SUVs are > expensive, and their owners have clout. If SUVs were cheap, there'd be > little attraction in driving one. I have to disagree with that statement. $10,000 can get me into a 2001 Expedition, and I could even just barely handle the gas costs. I am very far removed from anything resembling "clout". There are a LOT of very ordinary, middle-class Americans driving these monstrosities, they just did not buy them new for the most part. Pat > If SUVs were cheap, there'd be > > little attraction in driving one. > > I have to disagree with that statement. > $10,000 can get me into a 2001 Expedition, and I could even just barely > handle the gas costs. You miss my point, Pat. Sure, folks buy used Cadillacs (Mercedes, BWMs, etc.), too, for much less than MSRP. For the same money, they could get a newer Chevy with many fewer miles on it, yet there's always a market for old Caddies. The only reason: perceived status. Even the poor can pretend they're rich, as long as they don't look too hard at the rust. SignatureLanny Chambers '94C, St. Louis http://www.hummingbirds.net/alignment.html > You miss my point, Pat. Sure, folks buy used Cadillacs (Mercedes, BWMs, > etc.), too, for much less than MSRP. For the same money, they could get > a newer Chevy with many fewer miles on it, yet there's always a market > for old Caddies. The only reason: perceived status. Even the poor can > pretend they're rich, as long as they don't look too hard at the rust. Heh, I think I gotcha that time around. You are correct as well, that monster SUV was very expensive when new, though here in Austin, I see so many $40,000 and $50,000+ vehicles that nothing except the most exotic cars really stand out. Austin is very much a have or have not place, like most of the country, but we do have a lot of wealthy people living here. Pat >> My boss drives one of those monsters. I tell her we could save a lot >> of money if she'd just get a removable ramp and let me park my car [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > drive on them, and most SUVs are just larger than that in order to be > eligible for the tax breaks. *Some* SUVs are larger than 6000 lbs. gross. *Most* are not. <snip> Signaturetooloud Remove nothing to reply > Can't tell you how many times I've gone out into a parking lot and > haven't been able to find my car...walking around...looking...I know > I parked right by here!...oh there it is...hidden between a Suburban > and and Expedition. I'm incredibly envious that this is a big enough problem for you to post it to Usenet. > My boss drives one of those monsters. I tell her we could save a lot > of money if she'd just get a removable ramp and let me park my car in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > curb without slowing down so I feel like I'm going through a car > wash when you heave that wave over the top of my car? a.shole??? None of these issues have anything to do with SUVs. Apparently you don't like a.shole drivers; welcome to the club. > Truly though I think the worst thing about them is what that kind of > mass and power does to the psychology of the driver. When you get > behind the wheel of one of those things you feel invincable. I disagree; "invincible" might apply to 18-wheelers, but not SUVs. > Seriously. SUV drivers are the most aggresive drivers I've ever seen. > I think they don't worry about getting in an accident because they're > going to win that crash almost every time. And red lights? P'shaw. I've never owned a vehicle that I drive as aggressively as my Miata, and red-light runners drive all sorts of cars. You're linking red lights and SUVs for no reason. I'm not sure what you're mad at, but it appears to have nothing to do with SUVs. <snip> Signaturetooloud Remove nothing to reply >> Can't tell you how many times I've gone out into a parking lot and >> haven't been able to find my car...walking around...looking...I know [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm incredibly envious that this is a big enough problem for you to post > it to Usenet. Tooloud, it is indeed appropriate to participate in a thread where the subject is people's irritation with SUV's if my post reflects my own irritations with SUV's, and it need not be a "big" problem. >> My boss drives one of those monsters. I tell her we could save a lot >> of money if she'd just get a removable ramp and let me park my car in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > None of these issues have anything to do with SUVs. Apparently you don't > like a.shole drivers; welcome to the club. Yes, the club is a big one but you're in the midwest so you are making an assumption. In HOUSTON (4 million people) SUV drivers (along with folks who drive big pick-ups, and there are also a lot of them here) do indeed drive worse than those in cars. Ask anyone local. Even an SUV driver. I talked with three SUV drivers at my office today about this (including my boss who didn't even slow down while driving through a toll booth on the way to lunch with me in the passenger seat) and they all said they drive faster in their SUV's than in their sedans. >> Truly though I think the worst thing about them is what that kind of >> mass and power does to the psychology of the driver. When you get >> behind the wheel of one of those things you feel invincable. > > I disagree; "invincible" might apply to 18-wheelers, but not SUVs. I didn't say they ARE invincible...I said their drivers FEEL invicible. Even 18wheelers aren't actually invincible as evidenced by the fact that every single day in Houston there is at least one of them that turns over and closes down a freeway for hours. Today it was on 59south near Sugar Land. All lanes closed all afternoon. >> Seriously. SUV drivers are the most aggresive drivers I've ever seen. >> I think they don't worry about getting in an accident because they're [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > SUVs for no reason. I'm not sure what you're mad at, but it appears to > have nothing to do with SUVs. I'm not sure why you feel like you know anything about traffic in Houston. Your driving habits in a Miata have nothing to do with the reality of SUV drivers in Houston. There is a saying in Houston about traffic lights : "Green does NOT mean go." Folks run red lights in Houston as if they think red lights don't apply to them. EVERY day I see people do this. A good guess is that 70% of those folks that I personally witness doing so drive SUV's or oversized pickup trucks. I am linking red light runners and SUV's because it is behavior I witness every day in Houston. I know nothing about traffic and driving habits in the midwest and would not presume to state that your experiences are wrong, because I have no idea what your driving experience is like. You should extend the same to others. > <snip> > Tooloud, it is indeed appropriate to participate in a thread where the > subject is people's irritation with SUV's if my post reflects my own > irritations with SUV's, and it need not be a "big" problem. He is not saying that it is inappropriate, he is implying that you have so few problems that this is a really big one one for you because you responded to an off-topic rant and rave discussion on usenet. How well do you know this guy, Carol? He seems to have you all figured out.... ;-) Pat Ha!! You're right Pat... since he knows all maybe he can tell me where that gold hoop earring I lost in my very own living room is. I mean - THAT is a big problem in my life! :) >> Tooloud, it is indeed appropriate to participate in a thread where the >> subject is people's irritation with SUV's if my post reflects my own [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Pat <---{ LOL }---> Check under the table lamp. It got moved. SignatureI work for the ILEC ...." stuff happens! " > Ha!! You're right Pat... since he knows all maybe he can tell me where > that gold hoop earring I lost in my very own living room is. I mean - THAT [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> Pat > Ha!! You're right Pat... since he knows all maybe he can tell me where that > gold hoop earring I lost in my very own living room is. I mean - THAT is a > big problem in my life! :) Ha! I love Texas women! Not that being in Texas is a requirement. ;-) Would you like to get married Carol? I am not good-looking and I make very little money, but I haven't been arrested on a felony in almost 6 months. I lost count of misdemeanors, but come on, those are just minor charges. Start reeling girl, you don't want to let this one get away! ;-) I have talked to tooloud on here for quite a while, he is a good guy. He can be brash, but so can I, much often worse than him. As long as there is no hypocrisy involved, which he does not exhibit, I am happy enough. Pat >>> Can't tell you how many times I've gone out into a parking lot and >>> haven't been able to find my car...walking around...looking...I know [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > them here) do indeed drive worse than those in cars. Ask anyone > local. Even an SUV driver. Oh, I'm sorry--you're from *Houston*. Why didn't you just say so? I'm sure you're right, as there couldn't possibly be a place with an SUV problem like *Houston*--I mean, here up in the old-time midwest, we rarely run across one. > I talked with three SUV drivers at my > office today about this (including my boss who didn't even slow down > while driving through a toll booth on the way to lunch with me in the > passenger seat) and they all said they drive faster in their SUV's > than in their sedans. Well, if that doesn't convince me, I'm not sure what will. Your boss didn't slow down for the toll booth + your boss drives an SUV = SUVs are bad. Got it. >>> Truly though I think the worst thing about them is what that kind of >>> mass and power does to the psychology of the driver. When you get [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > them that turns over and closes down a freeway for hours. Today it > was on 59south near Sugar Land. All lanes closed all afternoon. Shoot, why are we talking about SUVs, then? Let's bitch about the truckers instead! >>> Seriously. SUV drivers are the most aggresive drivers I've ever >>> seen. I think they don't worry about getting in an accident because [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > your experiences are wrong, because I have no idea what your driving > experience is like. You should extend the same to others. I'm not sure why you feel like Houston is the nexus of the universe. I guess the rest of us will just sit back while the Houston-ites hash this out, because clearly we couldn't possibly know anything, what with us not living in Houston and all. Signaturetooloud Remove nothing to reply > I'm incredibly envious that this is a big enough problem for you to post it > to Usenet. Jesus, give the lady a break. She was almost killed by one of these "a.shole" drivers. Her near-death experience and recovering from serious injuries are probably more important than her rant, but guess what, we talk and bitch about all sorts of sh.t on here. Just because someone bitches about something on usenet doesn't mean that it is on the top of their problem list. f.cking envious, yeah right. Pat > I've always hated SUVs out of principle, because they're plain stupid > vehicles, but now I have a personal grievance with them as well. They > really should be banned; there's absolutely no reason why a mid-30s couple > with no kids living in Cambridge which is as flat as a pancake should be > driving such a monstrosity. Odd thing is that in some places in the USA they **ALREADY HAVE BEEN BANNED!**, just these laws are routinely ignored by everyone. Most of California & Minneapolis restrict trucks of over 3 ton on residential streets. (An H1 hummer has a GVWR of over 5 ton, and hardly looks or operates like a car.) http://www.energybulletin.net/1465.html http://www.slate.com/id/2104755/sidebar/2104762/ There is usually more to the "truck" definition for legal purposes other than GVWR. How many axles, how many tires, commercial use or not? The residential truck restrictions I've seen only applied to commercial trucks, though the signs only show the weight restriction. I find it concerning that when only people's sensibilities are offended offer the solution of banning as an appropriate action in a democratic and capitalistic society and that such banning should apply to everyone whether they are perceived to need the item or not . Or that there is a test or criteria to determine if they need the item and should be allowed to have it. Not American-like thinking in my opinion. Let's see: Married with no kids, regardless of age: banned from owning medium sized SUVs are larger. Married with two kids, 30-35 years of age. The state gives you permission to own an SUV no larger than medium. Such thought offends my sensibilities, let me see what I can ban to control such thought..... >> I've always hated SUVs out of principle, because they're plain stupid >> vehicles, but now I have a personal grievance with them as well. They [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > http://www.energybulletin.net/1465.html > http://www.slate.com/id/2104755/sidebar/2104762/ > There is usually more to the "truck" definition for legal purposes other > than GVWR. How many axles, how many tires, commercial use or not? The [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Such thought offends my sensibilities, let me see what I can ban to control > such thought..... I am not for banning them. This country already has way too many laws, there are plenty that need to be wiped from the books, not too many that need to be added. The things don't need to be banned, they are dying already. You don't see large numbers of them in Europe because of the high fuel costs. The continued rise in our fuel cost will result in the continued decline in the popularity of these vehicles. The sales of new SUV's and the cost of used ones has already been plummeting for some time. The end of this vehicle fashion show is near, and it is beautiful. Only their sheer numbers will keep many on the road for long. Pat Actually SUV's arn't as bad a pickup trucks with jacked up off road suspensions. We have quite a few of these running around. They used to be illegal for road use when the federal standards were inforced. > > There is usually more to the "truck" definition for legal purposes other > > than GVWR. How many axles, how many tires, commercial use or not? The [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Pat > Actually SUV's arn't as bad a pickup trucks with jacked up off road > suspensions. > We have quite a few of these running around. They used to be illegal for > road use when the federal standards were inforced. You mean like this? We have them EVERYWHERE, some higher than this one. They are usually amongst the fastest-moving and worst-driven vehicles on the road. http://home.austin.rr.com/sheltonservices/images/standoff1.JPG What makes it even worse is that if both of these vehicles are doing 10 to 15 mph over the limit through a twisty 45 mph section, it will be the miata, not the pickup truck that receives the ticket almost every time, even though the miata is at about 6/10th's and the truck is beyond it's safe traveling speed and will almost always cause more damage when it hits something. Pat >> There is usually more to the "truck" definition for legal purposes >> other than GVWR. How many axles, how many tires, commercial use or [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > The end of this vehicle fashion show is near, and it is beautiful. > Only their sheer numbers will keep many on the road for long. You're kidding yourself, Pat. Take a look at the number of '07 Tahoes, Yukons, and Escalades that GM has already sold. Gas is already down to $1.97 here in the midwest and I expect it to get even cheaper than that again. Signaturetooloud Remove nothing to reply > You're kidding yourself, Pat. Take a look at the number of '07 Tahoes, > Yukons, and Escalades that GM has already sold. Gas is already down to $1.97 > here in the midwest and I expect it to get even cheaper than that again. Take a look at the waiting lists for electric hybrids. Are you trying to tell me that they are selling as many Tahoes, Yukons and Escalades as they did two years ago? I haven't looked up sales figures myself, but news reports indicate that sales have dropped significantly and that only makes sense. How about prices on used models? They have dropped quite a bit because of the increased fuel costs. That is a simple fact, not my opinion. As it costs more to drive them, less people will. That is not a hard concept to understand. The days of $1.00 a gallon gas are gone forever. $4.00 a gallon is not an unreasonable prediction in the not too distant future. I said that SUV's are dying, not dead, though the death throes of this ridiculous fad are a wonderous sight to behold. I am referring to the very large lumbering trucks, not necessarily the jacked-up, slightly oversized station wagon that you drive. We used to agree on most things before you went and joined the SUV lemmings. ;-) Pat >> You're kidding yourself, Pat. Take a look at the number of '07 >> Tahoes, Yukons, and Escalades that GM has already sold. Gas is >> already down to $1.97 here in the midwest and I expect it to get >> even cheaper than that again. > > Take a look at the waiting lists for electric hybrids. Sure, but that's because they don't make as many hybrids as large SUVs. The sales numbers seem to suggest that while large SUV sales numbers are down, they're nowhere near as low as hybrid car sales. Couple that with gas prices going back down and the average driver's attention span, and you have a recipe for things to slowly turn around again. > Are you trying to tell me that they are selling as many Tahoes, Yukons > and Escalades as they did two years ago? Absolutely--GM restyled them for '07 and the numbers shot up, relative to what they had been selling. I think other manufacturers' sales have been down 15% or so. >I haven't looked up sales > figures myself, but news reports indicate that sales have dropped [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That is a simple fact, not my opinion. As it costs more to drive them, > less people will. That is not a hard concept to understand. But it's starting to cost *less* to drive them again, and I'm curious as to whether or not the hybrid sales will slow down, especially considering that many hybrids offer virtually no operating-cost advantage. > The days of $1.00 a gallon gas are gone forever. $4.00 a gallon is not > an unreasonable prediction in the not too distant future. I said that > SUV's are dying, not dead, though the death throes of this ridiculous > fad are a wonderous sight to behold. > I am referring to the very large lumbering trucks, not necessarily the > jacked-up, slightly oversized station wagon that you drive. I honestly don't think the days of $1 gasoline are over if you account for inflation. The last time I paid less than $1/gallon was almost 15 years ago, and I think what we were paying over the last few years really wasn't all that outrageous. IOW, gasoline was expensive only because it had been so cheap before. That said, I've got no problem paying $3-4 for a gallon of gasoline. If that keeps some of the SUVs off the road, maybe we can all be happy. > We used to agree on most things before you went and joined the SUV > lemmings. ;-) I've added a child and two SUVs to the house over the last three years, which explains my recent reluctance to say that a Miata is fine as one's only car. One of the SUVs is driven 2k miles per year simply to haul dirty things and assist in home-improvement projects, etc. The other is an Infiniti FX, which I'll defend to the end if only because it handles and accelerates better than the average person's car. I guess I'm starting to feel like I'm getting lumped in with the "idiot SUV drivers" when I feel that I'm being reasonably responsible in my vehicle usage. I needed a bigger vehicle than the Miata, and they don't make any performance-oriented minivans, so I ended up in an FX, which I think has the advantages of a car *and* an SUV, and my used Nissan, which rarely gets driven. I'm trying to justify trading my '95 M-edition in on an '07 Miata PRHT or a used RX-8, but so far I've been unable to let go of the old car. I've been *really* happy with it, to the point that I sometimes sit in it in the garage without even going anywhere. Don't worry; I'm still a Miata geek. ;) Signaturetooloud Remove nothing to reply > I've added a child and two SUVs to the house over the last three years, > which explains my recent reluctance to say that a Miata is fine as one's > only car. One of the SUVs is driven 2k miles per year simply to haul dirty > things and assist in home-improvement projects, etc. The other is an > Infiniti FX, which I'll defend to the end if only because it handles and > accelerates better than the average person's car. Sorry to snip so much of your post. We agree on a lot there. I know that a miata, or any two-seater for that matter, is not good as an only car for a family. That said, my parents managed to raise 3 of us, all born within 5 years, without a SUV. I also remember a lot of home improvement projects. They did get a custom van later, which I consider far superior to a SUV because it can actually hold something large. Try putting a full-sized washer and dryer in a SUV at the same time. It was great for partying in too. ;-) Your Infinity FX is not a SUV by my definition. It has no real off-road capability and it shares far more similarities with a station wagon than it does with a truck. In other words, made for the street rather than for off-road, and it would handle better and get better gas mileage still if they had designed it to sit lower than it does. It has more curb clearance and under the body air gathering space than I need. I wouldn't mind having one, but I would call it my big station wagon. > I guess I'm starting to feel like I'm getting lumped in with the "idiot SUV > drivers" when I feel that I'm being reasonably responsible in my vehicle > usage. I needed a bigger vehicle than the Miata, and they don't make any > performance-oriented minivans, so I ended up in an FX, which I think has the > advantages of a car *and* an SUV, and my used Nissan, which rarely gets > driven. No, you are more intelligent than that. It is also true that idiots will drive any vehicles, but I must admit, on a recent 50 mile journey home I kept track of truly bonehead manuevers by other drivers and every single one of the 25 or so that I saw was by a driver in a SUV or pickup truck. > I'm trying to justify trading my '95 M-edition in on an '07 Miata PRHT or a > used RX-8, but so far I've been unable to let go of the old car. I've been > *really* happy with it, to the point that I sometimes sit in it in the > garage without even going anywhere. Man, I don't even do that! > Don't worry; I'm still a Miata geek. ;) Very good to hear. :-) Pat > Gas is already down to $1.97 > here in the midwest and I expect it to get even cheaper than that again. Maybe right around election time, hmmmm? miker > There is usually more to the "truck" definition for legal purposes > other than GVWR. How many axles, how many tires, commercial use or [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Such thought offends my sensibilities, let me see what I can ban to > control such thought..... That's precisely my concern as well. Keeping in mind the number of Americans that seem to think that male Miata owners are all homosexual, I'll continue to support letting everyone drive whatever they like. <snip> Signaturetooloud Remove nothing to reply > Keeping in mind the number of Americans that seem to think that > male Miata owners are all homosexual, Most Americans don't think there are any male Miata owners, "it's a chick car!" <snip> > I've always hated SUVs out of principle, because they're plain stupid > vehicles, but now I have a personal grievance with them as well. They > really should be banned; there's absolutely no reason why a mid-30s > couple with no kids living in Cambridge which is as flat as a pancake > should be driving such a monstrosity. BANNED? Because one ran into your car? I'd sooner give up my Miata than live someplace where I'm told what I'm allowed to drive. YMMV. <snip> Signaturetooloud Remove nothing to reply > BANNED? Because one ran into your car? I'd sooner give up my Miata than live > someplace where I'm told what I'm allowed to drive. > > YMMV. I wouldn't mind driving a Formula One car around the city sometime, but I am not allowed to. The same goes for a golf cart on city streets. Time to find a new place to live. :-) I am not for banning SUV's either, I just wish that common sense would get most of them off of the road. Pat >> BANNED? Because one ran into your car? I'd sooner give up my Miata >> than live someplace where I'm told what I'm allowed to drive. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I wouldn't mind driving a Formula One car around the city sometime, > but I am not allowed to. You'd be surprised at how close you could get to that feeling with a Ferrari Enzo or McLaren F1 or the like. I'll bet that money would probably be the limiting factor in this before the law would. > The same goes for a golf cart on city > streets. Time to find a new place to live. :-) No one blinks an eye at golf carts on city streets here. > I am not for banning SUV's either, I just wish that common sense would > get most of them off of the road. Signaturetooloud Remove nothing to reply > You'd be surprised at how close you could get to that feeling with a Ferrari > Enzo or McLaren F1 or the like. Having never driven either, I can't commment on comparison, I think that the Formula One car is still going to have a massive advantage in power to weight ratio. Since I mentioned driving it on the street, that could cause some problems for the Formula car, it depends on the street. Of course, you don't want to take a McLaren or Enzo down pothole alley at 150mph either. > I'll bet that money would probably be the > limiting factor in this before the law would. No question, I do not have the means to drive a Formula One car. If I did, however, the next limiting factor would be either loss of driver's license or loss of life. > No one blinks an eye at golf carts on city streets here. The cops will blink their flashers at them here as they pull them over. That is assuming that they haven't been crushed by a monster SUV before that. ;-) Pat > > You'd be surprised at how close you could get to that feeling with a Ferrari > > Enzo or McLaren F1 or the like. You might want to try a street legal Caterham 7 or a Lotus Elise. Similar power to weight ratio as the Ferrari at a more reasonable price. Abyss >>> You'd be surprised at how close you could get to that feeling with >>> a Ferrari Enzo or McLaren F1 or the like. >> > You might want to try a street legal Caterham 7 or a Lotus Elise. > Similar power to weight ratio as the Ferrari at a more reasonable > price. As much as I like my Miata, I think I'd lose interest in it pretty fast if I ever found a good deal on a well-cared-for used Elise. 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