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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / February 2007Ford 'badged' vehicle built on Miata frame?
Hi everyone, I was driving "Maggie Mae" (My 'new' '01 Miata) this evening and my best girl posed a very thought provoking question. She asked 'with all the crossover (Rebranded / rebadged) cars that Ford & Mazda make (Explorer-Navajo, MX6-Probe, 323-Laser, Escape-Tribute, etc etc) why haven't they built a Ford 'branded' Miata. Call it the Ford Miara or something. It realy made me think that with the way Ford's numbers are in the crapper... why aren't they on their knees begging Mazda to let them do it. They could make an economy Shelby or Cobra replica built on the Miata frame. Something like this: http://www.paul-davis.com/vehicles/miata/cobra.jpg But knowing Ford, if they did it would probably look like one of these. http://www.paul-davis.com/vehicles/miata/mustang1.jpg http://www.paul-davis.com/vehicles/miata/mustang2.jpg http://www.paul-davis.com/vehicles/miata/stretch.jpg http://www.paul-davis.com/vehicles/miata/aston1.jpg http://www.paul-davis.com/vehicles/miata/camino2.jpg Just my 2 cents worth. :-) KN PS Many Thanks to Paul Davis.. His Miata page rocks! The Miata has stub frames and should be considered a "unibody" Even so, what you suggest is possible, but not probable. Interior room is too small for one thing. If you are saying that a rotary engine convertable sport car should be built using the Miata as a base, I could not agree more. > Hi everyone, > I was driving "Maggie Mae" (My 'new' '01 Miata) this evening and my best [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > PS Many Thanks to Paul Davis.. His Miata page rocks! > The Miata has stub frames and should be considered a "unibody" Even so, what > you suggest is possible, but not probable. > Interior room is too small for one thing. > If you are saying that a rotary engine convertable sport car should be built > using the Miata as a base, I could not agree more. Oooh... Talk about breakin' out the "zoom-zoom"! :)  SignatureDon Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist, or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow" somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info > The Miata has stub frames and should be considered a "unibody" Even so, what > you suggest is possible, but not probable. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> >> PS Many Thanks to Paul Davis.. His Miata page rocks! Let's see now. The 2.3L from the Mazdaspeed 6 puts out something over 270hp and from what I've seen it isn't all that large and is probably not prohibitively heavy and, given the cost of the the two vehicles utilizing it, it isn't all that expensive. Just a bit of work with the shoehorn in Hiroshima and you'd have some _serious_ Zoom-Zoom. SignatureJohn McGaw [Knoxville, TN, USA] http://johnmcgaw.com > Let's see now. The 2.3L from the Mazdaspeed 6 puts out something over > 270hp and from what I've seen it isn't all that large and is probably > not prohibitively heavy and, given the cost of the the two vehicles > utilizing it, it isn't all that expensive. Just a bit of work with the > shoehorn in Hiroshima and you'd have some _serious_ Zoom-Zoom. I would not be surprised if this is the next Mazdaspeed MX-5. This car would have a power-to-weight ratio rivaling some very serious, expensive sports cars. Should be interesting. I'm not saying it can't be done but you know, the MS 3 using that powerplant is FWD and in the MS 6 it's AWD so I'm not sure if it lends itself to RWD in a small package. I am in agreement that a rotary rocket Miata would be very "mazda" and I mean that in the best way. The Solstice / Sky have hi-po versions already and now I'm hearing that the Solstice's pretty much handed the Miata's their rear-ends at the SCCA autocross nationals. It's time to get serious MAZDA! Chris 99BBB >> Let's see now. The 2.3L from the Mazdaspeed 6 puts out something over >> 270hp and from what I've seen it isn't all that large and is probably [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would have a power-to-weight ratio rivaling some very serious, expensive > sports cars. Should be interesting. >> Let's see now. The 2.3L from the Mazdaspeed 6 puts out something over >> 270hp and from what I've seen it isn't all that large and is probably [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would have a power-to-weight ratio rivaling some very serious, expensive > sports cars. Should be interesting. I thought that too, but the 2.3 is taller, and may not clear the bonnet. It's also got the same bore with a longer stroke, meaning a bit more wieght, (up high) a bit more power and a less willingness to rev. A turbo might fix this, moving the power band up a bit higher in the rev range, but durability could be an issue. Probably would not thrive on a good hiding the way the old 1.6 & 1.8 do. >>> Let's see now. The 2.3L from the Mazdaspeed 6 puts out something over >>> 270hp and from what I've seen it isn't all that large and is probably [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > range, but durability could be an issue. Probably would not thrive on a > good hiding the way the old 1.6 & 1.8 do. As I wrote, the engine, as used in the Mazdaspeed 6 puts out 270hp. I doubt that it needs any more "hiding", at least for a vehicle meant for street use rather than flight. If the engine is a bit taller, then there is always the possibility of a dry sump which is usually good for a couple of inches of extra clearance. As for durability, the Mazdaspeed vehicles have not had any extraordinary maintenance problems that I'm aware of. In fact Mazda has been pretty conservative with the power boosts they've settled for and many aftermarket tuners have achieved higher numbers. Of course, for me this all academic. My 2006 will probably be driven until I'm too old to get in and out without help. I kept my 1991 for 15 years and if I do the same with my 2006 it won't be due for replacement until I'm 74... SignatureJohn McGaw [Knoxville, TN, USA] http://johnmcgaw.com > Hi everyone, > I was driving "Maggie Mae" (My 'new' '01 Miata) this evening and my [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > PS Many Thanks to Paul Davis.. His Miata page rocks! Thank you very much - my eyes are now bleeding. <g> Iva & Belle.) '90B Classic Red.) #3 winkin' Miata Supposedly one of the best engine conversions was an aluminum small block V8 originally made by GM and then sold to Aston Martin. The Aston Martin version was a very good engine, and used for quite a few years. Since that engine is a bit long in the tooth these days, some of the small block engines can be used. Unfortunately, major surgery is involved. Not much will be left of the original drive train. (300+ HP does very nasty things to a stock Miata drive train.) In fact, I doubt that the stock Miata drive train would withstand the torque produced by the V-6 in our impala sedan. To meet the basic EPA requirements, the new engine must be no older than the Miata it's going into. All that aside, a company in Australia was making a stretched and widened Miata version (Bullet?) for a chunk of change. Naturally it has up to a turbo'ed V-8. > > Hi everyone, > > I was driving "Maggie Mae" (My 'new' '01 Miata) this evening and my [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > '90B Classic Red.) > #3 winkin' Miata Actually the GM engine was sold to Rover, not Astom Martin--My mistake-- replace Aston Marti with Rover where ever found below. > Supposedly one of the best engine conversions was an aluminum small block V8 > originally made by GM and then sold to Aston Martin. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > '90B Classic Red.) > > #3 winkin' Miata >Actually the GM engine was sold to Rover, not Astom Martin--My mistake-- ...and was used in my beloved 1980 TR-8 ... -- Larry OMG, I always wanted a TR8. Tell me all about it please. I'll never forget the line from Car and Driver, "this is something that everybody in the Toyota generation should experience" Something to that effect anyway. I just wondered how well they would hold up. The C&D article said you could almost feel the twisting forces of the V8 an that body (you could probably remove the word 'almost'). Cool! I remember those horribly nasty plaid seats! Chris 99BBB >>Actually the GM engine was sold to Rover, not Astom Martin--My mistake-- > > ...and was used in my beloved 1980 TR-8 ... > > -- Larry > Hi everyone, > I was driving "Maggie Mae" (My 'new' '01 Miata) this evening and my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > They could make an economy Shelby or Cobra replica built on the Miata > frame. Ford tried to do a similar car to the Miata, at least here in Australia. Same motor, small convertable. Sold here as a Ford Capri, I think Mercury sold them in the USA. Problem was, where Mazda got mostly eveything right, Ford made every mistake possible, and produced a real shitbox. http://yahoo.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=10945&vf=1 You make some good points however, Ford seems to be bent on keeping it's head firmly planted up it's proverbial _ _ _ _ and crying only about worker pensions. Trying now to sell an outdated Focus as a 'new' focus and various other brilliant 'ideas'. Chris 99BBB >> Hi everyone, >> I was driving "Maggie Mae" (My 'new' '01 Miata) this evening and my [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > http://yahoo.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=10945&vf=1 > Ford tried to do a similar car to the Miata, at least here in Australia. > Same motor, small convertable. Sold here as a Ford Capri, I think [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://yahoo.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=10945&vf=1 That is not surprising. Producing real shitboxes is the only thing that Ford is good at doing anymore. We either have inept Americans working in design and/or production, or there is a complete lack of desire to build a quality vehicle for some reason. They have not produced a single car that I would want in over 30 years. They deserve to go under now that they can't rape every fourth American driver with one of their awful, extremely high-profit SUV's. The same goes for all other American automakers as well. There is not a single, currently produced American road vehicle that doesn't have a overseas counterpart that I want more, and cars are definitely an area where you really tend to get what you paid for, especially with domestic crap. I don't consider the lower price on shitbox American cars to be "savings". Pat Hey, don't hold back man! Just kidding. I agree to a large extent.Whether it's the bean counters, the designers, the engineers, we could all argue from now till the cows come home but that doesn't change the facts as they stand today. I think typical corporate greed and shortsightedness is mainly to blame and I'd argue it's running thru American business like a cancer. Hope we can stomp it out and get it healthy but most people pretend the problem doesn't exist. We'll see, Chris 99BBB > That is not surprising. > Producing real shitboxes is the only thing that Ford is good at doing [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Pat > There is not a >single, currently produced American road vehicle that doesn't have a >overseas counterpart that I want more... How about naming a few of those overseas-built cars that you covet? -- Larry >> There is not a >>single, currently produced American road vehicle that doesn't have a >>overseas counterpart that I want more... > > How about naming a few of those overseas-built cars that you covet? More Miatas. I rather like the Mazda 3 as well. And maybe a Lotus or two. SignatureGrant Edwards grante Yow! ... I want a COLOR at T.V. and a VIBRATING BED!!! visi.com > How about naming a few of those overseas-built cars that you covet? > > -- Larry You would just think I was telling a lie.... ;-) Here are a few: Already have 1991 Miata 1999-2005 Miata 2007 or 2008 Mazda MX-5 PRHT (maybe) Mazda M3 (practical, reliable & realistic for me) Toyota Camry (ditto) Honda Accord (ditto) Toyota Avalon (not quite so affordable) Lotus Elise (the toy, the dream of that much $ to spend on a toy) Subaru Outback (the closest I will ever come to a SUV) Infiniti G30 (nicely out of reach) BMW M5 (way out of reach) McLaren F1 (ha!) Aquada Car/Boat (it's just too cool) The list would go on for a long time, and the Corvette was on there as the single American entry until I read Tom's one year review when he bought a brand new one. It was not pretty to read, the car spent at least one of the 12 months in the shop and had many problems that were unacceptable. If any of these cars are built on this continent, please excuse my improper wording. I am comparing American cars to foreign cars, I know that automobiles are not always built in the country that the car manufacturer is located in. Pat > If any of these cars are built on this continent, please excuse my > improper wording. The Camry is certainly made in vast numbers in the US. Likewise, here is the UK Toyota, Honda and Nissan have very large plants. Ironically, despite the almost complete collapse of the UK's home-grown car industry due to crap products (BL/Rover) and labour unrest, we make more cars here than we have ever done. The US sounds as if it's going the same way. > The Camry is certainly made in vast numbers in the US. Likewise, here > is the UK Toyota, Honda and Nissan have very large plants. Yes, I figured that at least the two most popular ones I listed were made here, though I can't see them needing more production outlets for the exotics like the McLaren, the Elise or the Aquada. I have a feeling that Larry was trying to catch me in a word trap since I mentioned the cars as "overseas", rather than "a vehicle designed by a Japanese or German auto maker". Sure we can copy them and make their products here, but design our own that are as good or better? No way, both the US and the UK have been soundly beaten in that area. At least the UK makes a few interesting cars, even if they are expensive and not very practical for daily drivers. I may be wrong about an attempted word trap, but it is hard to believe that Larry really cares about which cars I want to own. > Ironically, despite the almost complete collapse of the UK's home-grown > car industry due to crap products (BL/Rover) and labour unrest, we make > more cars here than we have ever done. The US sounds as if it's going > the same way. Absolutely. Of course, it is a huge industry, but it is shrinking very quickly, as shown by the massive layoffs and small sales figures, especially for Ford. Pat > We either have inept Americans working in design Hey, we have some great American designers..they work for the Japanese & Germans...the problem is management. Productions apparently no problem either - look where a hefty % of Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, BMWs and Mercedes are built... (OK, Merc's not doing so hot these days, but you've got to admire what they've done with Chrysler..nothing like a 10-yr old Mercedes platform + American styling..Hello 300C/Magnum/Challenger/Crossfire) It's pretty bleak, really.. Ford's in the pooper, GM's about to be overtaken in sales by Toyota & youve got the feeling Daimler would unload Chrysler for the right price. > Hey, we have some great American designers..they work for the Japanese > & Germans...the problem is management. That makes sense. Bad management can take down any company. > Productions apparently no problem either - look where a hefty % of > Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, BMWs and Mercedes are built... (OK, Merc's > not doing so hot these days, but you've got to admire what they've > done with Chrysler..nothing like a 10-yr old Mercedes platform + > American styling..Hello 300C/Magnum/Challenger/Crossfire) American styling is not what I want, and I have never liked muscle cars very much, but that does at least look better to me than any Mustang produced since the 1960's. > It's pretty bleak, really.. Ford's in the pooper, GM's about to be > overtaken in sales by Toyota & youve got the feeling Daimler would > unload Chrysler for the right price. My neighbor had a 2001+ model Impala, don't remember the exact year, that she bought new. It had more problems in the first six months than my parents '94 Camry had in the previous 6 years. When the Impala finally threw a rod at 37K miles, she dumped it and bought a Toyota which has had almost zero problems for a few years now, and nothing major. Toyota should be outselling GM by 100 to 1, not catching up with them. When even Chevrolet's flagship sport scar is a problematic piece of crap, it is time to throw in the towel. I am sorry to see people losing their jobs, but times are tough. We don't have to buy shitty cars out of loyalty, the American auto makers have had many years to catch up and they failed miserably. Pat Pat "pws" <pwshelton@austin.rr.com> > We don't have to buy shitty cars out of loyalty, the American auto makers .....read "management"..... > have had many years to catch up and they failed miserably. That pretty much says it all, as far as I'm concerned. The toughest part on the conscience is being an American family/consumer, and a "Union Member". SignatureI work for the ILEC ...." stuff happens! " > .....read "management"..... yes, thank you, my bad. > That pretty much says it all, as far as I'm concerned. > The toughest part on the conscience is being an American > family/consumer, and a "Union Member". Yes, I would love to be able to say, "look at this finely crafted American car, much better than that equally-priced import". There may be a parallel universe somewhere where another Pat is saying that with conviction, but I don't think that I could say it here without laughing even if you paid me. ;-) Pat >> We either have inept Americans working in design > >Hey, we have some great American designers..they work for the Japanese >& Germans...the problem is management. And in particular mindless cost cutting, I would think. Not cost saving through better design, but using solutions that are "just as good." Without, say, giving a thought that in the buyers' minds, it will correspondingly reduce the value of the car. And if then those cost cutting measures also produce increased (expensive) warranty work, the company has done a great job of cutting itself at both sides of the knife. Add customer dissatisfaction and the company has found a way to cut itself at three sides of their two-sided knife. Of course, the cost-cutting looks good on the resume of the manager, and by the time the adverse effects really start to show up, the manager has already been promoted on to the next company to screw up. I wonder when it will start to affect Mazda. The company has done a great job in lowering the (real dollar) cost of the Miata, especially looking at what you get in light weight engineering etc. But some people are bitching about the cheap-looking materials of the interior. If it cuts sales, that was no savings. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bess, the Miata :) Bozo, the Miata :) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas > And if then those cost > cutting measures also produce increased (expensive) warranty work, the > company has done a great job of cutting itself at both sides of the > knife. We call that shooting themselves in the foot. > Add customer dissatisfaction and the company has found a way > to cut itself at three sides of their two-sided knife. We call that shooting themselves in the head. > I wonder when it will start to affect Mazda. The company has done a great > job in lowering the (real dollar) cost of the Miata, especially looking > at what you get in light weight engineering etc. I have no seat time in an NC, but when I compare our new $17k Mazda3 with the $10k 1985 Accord it replaced, I am blown away. (The CPI has just about doubled since 1985, putting the old Accord at about $20k in today's dollars.) It's the same size, but much better equipped, much safer, quieter, better handling, much quicker, and gets similar mileage. > But some people are bitching about the cheap-looking materials of the > interior. If it cuts sales, that was no savings. On the other hand, it would've been really tough to keep up the high standard in this area and good looking materials I know from my '93. cu .\\arc Marc, Is this tongue in cheek? I'm assuming so as I think that was kind of the knock on the NA, that it was a pretty cookie-cutter simple / inexpensive (big difference from cheap) looking design on the interior. I thought the NB made a pretty nice improvement on that front with everything being nicely integrated and significantly better looking and feeling materials. But they also made a big mistake IMHO by cheaping out on the seats. Later, Chris 99BBB > On the other hand, it would've been really tough to keep up the high > standard in this area and good looking materials I know from my '93. > > cu > .\\arc |
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