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Car Forum / Mazda / Mazda Miata / June 2007Wheels falling off RX-7 redux
Here's a video: http://www.teamjamoto.com/dixeregionpage.htm > Here's a video: > > http://www.teamjamoto.com/dixeregionpage.htm Cool! The handling seems to have been affected in a negative way, but what a fast stop that was! Pat >Here's a video: > >http://www.teamjamoto.com/dixeregionpage.htm Just out of curiosity, do Dixie Region's tech inspections include a check of lug nut torque? -- Larry >>Here's a video: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -- Larry I think that Leon probably had it right on his original post: "Presumably nut lugs that seemed to screw on OK, but that I think did not quite have the right thread. I am guessing they rested on just the edges of the thread, and when torqued down, were ready to pop off at the smallest provocation." Those lugs nuts did seem to pop off all at once, and almost immediately once stress was placed on them. If they were loose enough to come flying off from lack of tightening alone, the driver should have noticed the extremely sloppy steering just driving up to the start. Still, a MAJOR screw-up, anyway you look at it. Pat > I think that Leon probably had it right on his original post: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > alone, the driver should have noticed the extremely sloppy steering just > driving up to the start. How did the guy even make it to the track (presuming the car wasn't trailered) with those lug nuts? Do people have a second set of lug nuts to go with their racing wheels?  SignatureGrant Edwards grante Yow! So this is what it at feels like to be potato visi.com salad > How did the guy even make it to the track (presuming the car > wasn't trailered) with those lug nuts? Do people have a second > set of lug nuts to go with their racing wheels? Some of you are making large assumptions about lugnuts, when in reality we don't have any facts about why the wheels came off. If you're curious, email someone at the club and ask. Speculation, while assuredly the lifeblood of Usenet, isn't all that productive when the facts should be easy to find. > Some of you are making large assumptions about lugnuts, when in reality > we don't have any facts about why the wheels came off. If you're > curious, email someone at the club and ask. Speculation, while assuredly > the lifeblood of Usenet, isn't all that productive when the facts should > be easy to find. Well, I see four rather intact looking wheels, and people immediately collecting lug nuts off of the track. Looks like they popped off to me, the only question is why. Either the lugs were faulty, the lug nuts were faulty, he started the race with them finger-tightened on the car, or they were the wrong size. The latter seems like the most likely cause to me. You found the video, so you clearly have some interest. Why don't you ask and let us know? I am willing to bet at least 10 to 1 that it was not caused by lug nuts being placed on the car without torquing them down. Pat > You found the video, so you clearly have some interest. Why don't you > ask and let us know? What, and spoil your fun? Heaven forfend, Pat. I'm too nice a guy to play such a dirty trick on my Usenet buddies. > What, and spoil your fun? Heaven forfend, Pat. I'm too nice a guy to > play such a dirty trick on my Usenet buddies. It is kind of fun to watch a video that clearly shows all of the lug nuts popping off of the car and then to read this when it is commented on. "Some of you are making large assumptions about lugnuts, when in reality we don't have any facts about why the wheels came off." Let's see, 20 lug nuts pop off at once, but to think that the lug nuts might be the problem is making a large assumption? I really don't think so. Pat > "Some of you are making large assumptions about lugnuts, when in reality > we don't have any facts about why the wheels came off." > > Let's see, 20 lug nuts pop off at once, but to think that the lug nuts > might be the problem is making a large assumption? No, asserting the exact sequence of events with no data was a large assumption. It was obviously something involving the lugnuts. With more data now, it does seem likely that 1/2" nuts were used on 12mm studs, torqued to spec, but with the threads barely engaged. But this was still an educated guess, not the first-hand account of the owner. No matter, I'm sure it'll buff right out. That would be one hell of a "buffer" :-) Bruce Bing '03 LS > No, asserting the exact sequence of events with no data was a large > assumption. It was obviously something involving the lugnuts. Leon made an educated guess that I agreed with as almost certainly being the cause once I saw the video, and we were exactly right. Barring a full set of defective lug nuts, something I have never seen before, what else could it have been besides them being the wrong size? My bet is still open for anyone who thinks that they were not tightened down enough. > With more data now, it does seem likely that 1/2" nuts were used on 12mm > studs, torqued to spec, but with the threads barely engaged. But this > was still an educated guess, not the first-hand account of the owner. Again, no broken wheels, lug studs intact, lug nuts stripped right off almost immediately. Pretty strong evidence there. > No matter, I'm sure it'll buff right out. Certainly. :-) Pat > How did the guy even make it to the track (presuming the car > wasn't trailered) with those lug nuts? Do people have a second > set of lug nuts to go with their racing wheels? Possibly trailered, and a lot of people swap wheels/tires after they get to the autocross track. My SSR Comps have a non-OEM set of lug nets, but I am not sure if they are interchangeable with OEM ones or not. I keep a set of open-end lug nuts with the spare when I carry it on trips, also handy for brake work. I have seen aftermarket wheels on other cars that would not take the stock lug nuts. Whatever the cause, this fits in with my theory that anything that can be screwed up, will be screwed up, by somebody, given time. If it was an unlikely case of 20 defective lugs or lug nuts, then I wish the RX-7 owner the best in his upcoming lawsuit. :-) Pat >> How did the guy even make it to the track (presuming the car >> wasn't trailered) with those lug nuts? Do people have a second [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >If it was an unlikely case of 20 defective lugs or lug nuts, then I wish >the RX-7 owner the best in his upcoming lawsuit. :-) As far as I am concerned, you are right on. As far as I know, the driver drove in on OEM wheels with OEM lug nuts, and swapped wheels with nonOEM lug nuts. Probably what he could find at Pep Boys, from the look of them. (They look familiar). Suggestions that the problem was that the lug nuts were not torqued down do not require any comment for any thinking person. Even if they were not even finger tight, they could not all vibrate off at the exact same time. Dixie does not check lug nut torque. They also do not check for possible material defects, nor whether the driver is an alien. At least, I never had any problem. The lug threads had damage, indicating to me that the lug nuts had been stripped off, but by and large not enough damage that they could not hold a full amount of torque with the OEM nuts put back on. This suggests to me that the other lug nuts did not fit that well. After downloading 5 Mb of video over my phone line, Flash Player was not kind enough to show me the results. Probably deletes it as soon as it gets it to protect copyright. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bess, the Miata :) Bozo, the Miata :) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas > As far as I am concerned, you are right on. Leon, we are agreeing so much lately that it is just plain frightening. I may find myself in a white miata soon if I don't watch it. > As far as I know, the driver drove in on OEM wheels with OEM lug nuts, > and swapped wheels with nonOEM lug nuts. Probably what he could find > at Pep Boys, from the look of them. (They look familiar). Did you get a chance to look at the car close-up? > Suggestions that the problem was that the lug nuts were not torqued > down do not require any comment for any thinking person. Even if > they were not even finger tight, they could not all vibrate off at the > exact same time. Agreed. I am changing my bet of 10 to 1 odds to my clear miata title against somebody's $1.00 bill if they can prove that the lug nuts all vibrated off at once because they were not tightened down. (that is roughly 6500 to 1 odds, anyone want to lose a dollar?) Really, if it wasn't the lug nuts popping off, what was it? The wheel gremlin? Your original suggestion is the only one that makes any sense. > Dixie does not check lug nut torque. They also do not check for > possible material defects, nor whether the driver is an alien. At > least, I never had any problem. Definitely no alien checks, then. ;-0 > The lug threads had damage, indicating to me that the lug nuts had been > stripped off, but by and large not enough damage that they could not [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Leon Phone line? Arghhhh, it has been a long time since I have heard the 56K modem firing up. Pat >Did you get a chance to look at the car close-up? Yes. It was sitting there for quite some time. People first had to figure out how to get a jack under a car that is lying flat on the ground with its bottom. Then put the oem wheels and nuts back on. I also screwed back on one of the nonOEM lug nuts. They screwed on easily by hand but did not feel right. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bess, the Miata :) Bozo, the Miata :) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas > Yes. It was sitting there for quite some time. People first had > to figure out how to get a jack under a car that is lying flat > on the ground with its bottom. Then put the oem wheels and > nuts back on. Buncha wimps. The car only weighs about 2700 pounds, and there were lots of people there. They should have just carried it onto the jack stands. You could probably have handled one end by yourself... :-) > I also screwed back on one of the nonOEM lug nuts. They screwed on > easily by hand but did not feel right. > > Leon I have always been very careful with lug nuts, making sure that they are the correct size, tightened correctly, etc. It just seems really important that a wheel does not come off while driving. It hasn't happened yet. If I am ever guilty of either not screwing down the lug nuts down far enough to engage correctly, or using the wrong size ones resulting in the wheels falling off, it will be the last time I ever work on any car. Pat >> Yes. It was sitting there for quite some time. People first had >> to figure out how to get a jack under a car that is lying flat [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >enough to engage correctly, or using the wrong size ones resulting in >the wheels falling off, it will be the last time I ever work on any car. We had a neighbor who had a wheel fall off on the Interstate in Holland; it has stuck in my memory. Since I am as forgetful as anybody, I make a habit of after changing wheels, to go once more around all corners to ensure they have been torqued down to spec. It is not that I don't trust myself, just that I have so much evidence to the contrary. Leon ;) SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bess, the Miata :) Bozo, the Miata :) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas > We had a neighbor who had a wheel fall off on the Interstate in Holland; > it has stuck in my memory. Since I am as forgetful as anybody, I make [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Leon ;) This brings to mind the lady who was selling five 280ZX's in various states of repair. I considered purchasing them to part out and decided against it. Anyway, the one car that would start had lost a front wheel at speed after vibrating the lug nuts off, and she said that the lug nuts on every other wheel were loose with some missing. She came to the conclusion that a thief had loosened them all and then been scared off before removing the wheels. (yeah, huge demand there for a set of scuffed-up 1983 280ZX wheels) About this time she also mentioned that the cars belonged to both her and her ex-husband, and that they were going to split the money as part of the divorce agreement. I asked if the car that the wheel fell off of was her daily driver before the accident, and she said yes. I just shook my head sadly as I left. There is such a thing as being too cynical, and also such a thing as being completely naive. I am pretty sure that I know who loosened her lug nuts..... Pat >Suggestions that the problem was that the lug nuts were not torqued >down do not require any comment for any thinking person. Even if >they were not even finger tight, they could not all vibrate off at the >exact same time. They didn't have to "vibrate off at the exact same time." Only the last one or two on each wheel had to vibrate/shear/break off under maximum stress in the same turn-in. That would be immediately obvious to anyone who hasn't been permanently blinded by ugly white paint. 8;) -- Larry ('95 R -- black, of course...) >>Suggestions that the problem was that the lug nuts were not torqued >>down do not require any comment for any thinking person. Even if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >two on each wheel had to vibrate/shear/break off under maximum stress in the >same turn-in. . >That would be immediately obvious to anyone who hasn't been permanently blinded >by ugly white paint. 8;) I guess there is nothing unreasonable to assume that the already vibrated-off nuts were rolling around on the rim for the 100 ft the car drove without falling off, and that each wheel's got down to its last one or two nuts all at the same time, so that they could all vibrate/shear off at the same time. >-- Larry ('95 R -- black, of course...) Of course. With a Miata that slow, the brain atrophies from never having to think quick. Leon SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bess, the Miata :) Bozo, the Miata :) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas >I guess there is nothing unreasonable to assume that the already vibrated-off >nuts were rolling around on the rim for the 100 ft the car drove without >falling off, and that each wheel's got down to its last one or two nuts all >at the same time, so that they could all vibrate/shear off at the same time. Well, two things seem obvious: 1. since no other damage was noted, the wheels all came off because either the lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared, and 2. at least three of those wheels completely separated from the car at essentially the same time, so either the last lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared simultaneously. If you've got a way around those points, please let us know. -- Larry > Well, two things seem obvious: 1. since no other damage was noted, the wheels > all came off because either the lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared, and 2. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -- Larry Sorry to step in Leon, but I have one. There is no "either" here. The lug nuts came off because they failed to properly engage the bolt threads, while the lug bolts remained intact with threads that could still be used afterwards with the proper lug nuts. Leon saw this in person, he even personally inspected with the car. I am going with his assessment on this one. Pat >> Well, two things seem obvious: 1. since no other damage was noted, the wheels >> all came off because either the lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared, and 2. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >properly engage the bolt threads, while the lug bolts remained intact >with threads that could still be used afterwards with the proper lug nuts. Absolutely. A correct-size lug nut screwed on only partially can still hold a decent load but will eventually fall off. In that case there are "last" lug-nuts, the one or two remaining ones when the others have vibrated off, that may give plastically. Here we have the situation that all of them popped off at the same time right from their original fully screwed-on state, by skimming over the tops of the stud threads, rather than shearing the threads significantly, let alone the studs. Leon >Leon saw this in person, he even personally inspected with the car. I am >going with his assessment on this one. > >Pat SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bess, the Miata :) Bozo, the Miata :) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas > Here we have the situation that all of them popped off at the same > time right from their original fully screwed-on state, by skimming > over the tops of the stud threads, rather than shearing the > threads significantly, let alone the studs. I didn't see the car but is it possible that there were no lug nuts at all? A friend had a similar thing some years back but only one wheel was affected, he had a flat on his boat trailer, he and his son changed it in a big rush and when the wheel came off a few miles later each thought the other had put on the lug nuts! Somewhere on the highway is a hubcap full of lugnuts! NOTE: If you knew the two people involved you wouldn't be at all surprised at the incident, they managed between the two of them to destroy an awful lot of machinery and the tendency to hurry no matter what eventually resulted in the death of the son. SignatureXS11E, Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html >> Here we have the situation that all of them popped off at the same >> time right from their original fully screwed-on state, by skimming [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I didn't see the car but is it possible that there were no lug nuts at >all? No they were there all 20. That's how they managed to mess up the threads to some extent. The only thing that I wonder about is whether he really got them torqued to spec. That would seem a lot of torque for them to come of so easily, not? Leon > A friend had a similar thing some years back but only one wheel >was affected, he had a flat on his boat trailer, he and his son changed [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >destroy an awful lot of machinery and the tendency to hurry no matter >what eventually resulted in the death of the son. SignatureLeon van Dommelen :) Bess, the Miata :) Bozo, the Miata :) rammm@dommelen.net http://www.dommelen.net/miata The only thing better than a white Miata is two white Miatas >The only thing that I wonder about is whether he really got them torqued >to spec. That would seem a lot of torque for them to come of so easily... Leon, that's precisely why I asked if your region's tech inspectors had a torque wrench. -- Larry >> Well, two things seem obvious: 1. since no other damage was noted, the wheels >> all came off because either the lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared, and 2. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Leon saw this in person, he even personally inspected with the car. I am >going with his assessment on this one. Ummm, no you don't. Nothing you or Leon have said contradicts anything I've said. I have not asserted any reason why the lug nuts came off, just that they did. -- Larry >>> Well, two things seem obvious: 1. since no other damage was noted, the wheels >>> all came off because either the lug nuts came off or the bolts sheared, and 2. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > -- Larry Sorry, but Leon has already stated that the lug studs were barely damaged and would still accept the OEM wheels and lug nuts. After this post, you listed sheared lug bolts as a possible cause that the lug nuts came off. That is a contradiction since they were not sheared, unless of course, you are going to accuse Leon of lying, as you once did with me. Pat Notes at the club say wrong size lug nuts used, torqued up but not enough thread engagement too handle the stress of a turn. Sheared of the tops of the threads. >Here's a video: > >http://www.teamjamoto.com/dixeregionpage.htm > Notes at the club say wrong size lug nuts used, torqued up but not > enough thread engagement too handle the stress of a turn. Sheared of > the tops of the threads. Ha! That is exactly what me and Leon "assumed". I also tend to "make a large assumption" that a tire is flat when it doesn't have air in it. Some things really are not that complicated. :-) Pat NOW PAT !, Your English teacher would do a "slow roll" is her grave if she heard you say what you did ! It is "Always" .... Leon and I ...... You NEVER put yourself FIRST when you speak ! :-) ... Ain't that so, teacher ??? :-) Bruce Bing '03 LS > NOW PAT !, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Bruce Bing '03 LS Hey, my last English teacher should only be about 55 to 60 by now. Sorry, I just finished reading "Emergence" by David Palmer. Written in first person without using the words "the", "my", or "I". Not the easiest read in the world.... :-) Now I'm fixin' to hit the sack. Pat Pat, .....I'm fixin' ..... is "Texan" and has no resemblance to English. Using "Texan" is ok, but not improper English. :-) (Go to bed Pat ! ) :-) Bruce Bing '03 LS PS: What the hell are you still doing in Texas ? I thought you were going Northwest. > Pat, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > PS: What the hell are you still doing in Texas ? I thought you were > going Northwest. We have plenty of rain here, thank you, I don't need to travel for it. I also got smacked by that thing called circumstances. :-) I'm fixin' to get there, which of course means anywhere from 10 minutes to 20 years. Pat |
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