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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / October 2007

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[Update] Marvel Mystery oil and fuel economy

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Kurt Steinhauser - 01 Oct 2007 16:31 GMT
I filled up this morning. Calculated mileage rose to 26.05mpg. I changed
out the primary and secondary fuel filters about a week ago. This next
tank will be the one that has the new filters exclusively. Also have
changed out the air filter, so the beast breaths a little freer now. Tire
pressure checked this morning as added measure of reducing varibles.
Signature

Cheers, Kurt ('87 300SDL daily driver)

Paul Hoffman - 01 Oct 2007 23:41 GMT
Ah but in fact you have several variables. new fuel filters and air filter.
So how do you know which one might be the reason for increased mpg if you in
fact see an increase?

Paul

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Paul Hoffman
Burlington ON
phoffman@cogeco.ca or hoffmanp@mcmaster.ca
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which is least known"  Montaigne

>
> I filled up this morning. Calculated mileage rose to 26.05mpg. I changed
> out the primary and secondary fuel filters about a week ago. This next
> tank will be the one that has the new filters exclusively. Also have
> changed out the air filter, so the beast breaths a little freer now. Tire
> pressure checked this morning as added measure of reducing varibles.
The Spanish Inquisition - 02 Oct 2007 08:40 GMT
> Ah but in fact you have several variables. new fuel filters and air filter.
> So how do you know which one might be the reason for increased mpg if you in
> fact see an increase?

And then there's the - not so unlikely - effect of this whole experiment
on the brain that controls your right foot...

Let's make it a double blind test. We prepare 12 anonymous cannisters of
oil, 6 with product X and 6 with product Y. Another person changes your
oil monthly and seals the filling cap. You record the usage
meticulously. After twelve months we unvail the cannister content, pump
the data into SPSS and see if there's a correlation with the oil type.

Too complicated I guess ;)

Ximinez
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Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html

Kurt Steinhauser - 03 Oct 2007 20:46 GMT
>> Ah but in fact you have several variables. new fuel filters and air
>> filter. So how do you know which one might be the reason for increased
>> mpg if you in fact see an increase?

Occam's razor perhaps? There have now been two tanks of MMO treated fuel
run thru the system. One with old filters, one with old filters for about
half the tank. Now I have new filters, primary and secondary installed
with a fresh tankful of adulterated fuel.

> And then there's the - not so unlikely - effect of this whole experiment
> on the brain that controls your right foot...

Overall I tend to be a relatively sedate driver. The noticed increased
"pep" in the response to the depression of the foot feed pedal may well
play a role in the fuel consumption. But I don't tend to "jackrabbit" off
from full stops and generally cruise at 55-58mph on the roadways that I
most often travel.

> Let's make it a double blind test. We prepare 12 anonymous cannisters of
> oil, 6 with product X and 6 with product Y. Another person changes your
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Too complicated I guess ;)

Yep. You gonna set this up as ANOVA or are we gonna just use Chi-Square?
Multiple trials in multiple locations with multiple drivers?

<BEG>
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Cheers, Kurt

me - 03 Oct 2007 22:56 GMT
> Yep. You gonna set this up as ANOVA or are we gonna just use
> Chi-Square?
> Multiple trials in multiple locations with multiple drivers?

Altitude, don't forget altitude
Kurt Steinhauser - 04 Oct 2007 02:04 GMT
>> Yep. You gonna set this up as ANOVA or are we gonna just use
>> Chi-Square?
>> Multiple trials in multiple locations with multiple drivers?
>>
> Altitude, don't forget altitude

Altitude or attitude? <G>
Both may play roles.

Signature

Cheers, Kurt

Tiger - 02 Oct 2007 17:43 GMT
Guys... it is not just about filter and air filter... we know from our past
experience that changing these two accounts for some change... but not in
such a dramatic change.

On my car, everything was running for a year before I started trying out
MMO... On this MMO full tank plus Startron at half tank... I have driven 446
miles and I still have over 1/4 tank left... more like 5/16 tank left. My
tank is 23 gallons total and 3 gallons reserve. My driving is strictly local
driving. My town is pretty hilly.

As I drive, I am not trying to minipulate... by accelerating as slow as
possible or anything like that. I do however coast as much as I can... but
not rediculously either. For example, I see red light ahead and I am driving
45 MPH... I would coast for 1/2 mile into the intersection... there is no
point to keep foot on gas until light and then slam on brake.

My average MPG around town for 2 years is 25 or 26 MPG... below my 27/35 EPA
rating. When I first got it, I was getting 30MPG average but didn't last for
some reason... I think Algae is a huge reason on my car even though the 2
fuel filters shows zero black algae or black anything at all.

Now I am getting over 32MPG around town when I usually get 25 or 26. I get
29 MPG when I spend $9 on diesel fuel injection cleaner two separate time
but then drops back to 25 when tank is finished.
Paul Hoffman - 02 Oct 2007 21:51 GMT
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"Tiger" typed in part

> Guys... it is not just about filter and air filter... we know from our
> past experience that changing these two accounts for some change... but
> not in such a dramatic change.

I am not saying that an improvement is not seen. I merely commented that
more than one variable had been changed in the situation to which I was
responding. That is not good science, and makes for questionable data and
therefore inconclusive results.

Paul

Paul Hoffman
Burlington ON
phoffman@cogeco.ca or hoffmanp@mcmaster.ca
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which is least known"  Montaigne
me - 02 Oct 2007 23:14 GMT
>> Guys... it is not just about filter and air filter... we know from
>> our past experience that changing these two accounts for some
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> which I was responding. That is not good science, and makes for
> questionable data and therefore inconclusive results.

Absolutely! We don't know if it is working by design, or working by
accident.

"The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable”

-Paul Broca
robrjt - 02 Oct 2007 21:54 GMT
> Guys... it is not just about filter and air filter... we know from our past
> experience that changing these two accounts for some change... but not in
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> 29 MPG when I spend $9 on diesel fuel injection cleaner two separate time
> but then drops back to 25 when tank is finished.

Hey Tiger,  I am getting about 5 mpg more with my 240D now.,.  and the
300SD actually "chirped" its meaty 195.70/14s the other day!
Thanks for the idea.
Rob
tweaks - 06 Oct 2007 03:22 GMT
As a Six Sigma Blackbelt, changing more than one variable in an
UNCONTROLLED fashion can mask the effects of the primary variables and
their interactions.  If you'd like, I can construct a legitimate Design Of
Experiment including all variables you believe might be affecting your
mileage, and then you could try them one by one...

--
Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.auto.mercedes/
More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html
jch - 06 Oct 2007 05:31 GMT
> As a Six Sigma Blackbelt, changing more than one variable in an
> UNCONTROLLED fashion can mask the effects of the primary variables and
> their interactions.  If you'd like, I can construct a legitimate Design Of
> Experiment including all variables you believe might be affecting your
> mileage, and then you could try them one by one...
_____
I fully concur with this advice.  There are, unfortunately, a number of
environmental variables, many of which are not measured.  For example, i
just completed a 1,000 km round trip through parts of the BC coast
mountains.  On the way to my destination i got 13.1 km/l, while on the
way back it was only 11.5 km/l!  The major differences were air
temperature, routing, vehicle speed and air speed/direction.

The variables that play a role are:
 - elevation,
 - average grades of hills/passes (1,400 m to 1,750 m),
 - ambient temperature,
 - air humidity,
 - average traveling speed,
 - percentage of time spent in which gear (city vs highway),
 - tire inflation,
 - number of passengers,
 - wind speed,
 - type of road surface,
 - state/condition of engine (air/fuel filters, injectors, compression,
coolant temperature),
 - amount of fuel taken at refill (not consistent), and
 - fuel (type/quality).

There are indeed well known standards for "Design of Experiments" that
aim to determine all the variables that will affect fuel consumption.
This is not a trivial undertaking, and requires a fairly large number of
vehicles to take part in order to get a statistically significant
result.  In addition, all measurable variables _must_ be measured all of
the time during the tests.  As a result, these tests are essentially
impractical to carry out by laypeople.

The best way to determine the efficacy of any fuel additive (such as
MMO) is to run the car(s) on a calibrated dynamometer under precisely
controlled conditions on a tank of "standard" petro diesel fuel, then
refuel with exactly the same amount containing the prescribed amount of
MMO.  This is quite feasible, but costs a good deal of money.

Incidentally, i checked out the Walmart store where in live in BC, and
MMO is simply not available.  There were two brands of "injector
cleaner" claiming better engine performance after use.  Personally i am
suspicious of fuel additives.  The oil refiners who produce these fuels
are the experts in the area of additives.  If the supplemental fuel
additives were really needed, then they would already be present in the
fuel at the pump.  Finally, due to the lower sulphur level in current
Canadian (and US) diesel fuels, a number of injection pump failures have
been reported.  Apparently the rotating vane pump designs are more
sensitive to lower fuel lubricity.  The older piston style pumps (as
found on 300SD and 300D Turbo engines) do not seem as sensitive.
Despite this, i add about one cup of ATF per tank refill to make sure
that the petro diesel is slippery enough for the pump to keep working
properly.  This recommendation comes from my Mercedes Specialists in
town.  Lack of lubricity in the fuel is _not_ an issue when you use
biodiesel or some blend of neat vegetable oil.
Signature

Regards / JCH

Tiger - 07 Oct 2007 19:55 GMT
You can get it here...

http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/main.taf?p=7
Tom Plunket - 07 Oct 2007 20:21 GMT
> Lack of lubricity in the fuel is _not_ an issue when you use
> biodiesel or some blend of neat vegetable oil.

Veggie oil for the win!  :)

It's amazing how much smoother my car runs on the stuff, but it does
come at a slight cost of power.  Not that 77hp was much to start with,
but my climb of the hill away from work at night is an exercise in
frustration for those who get stuck behind me...

Since going to VO I've noticed one thing for certain; I'm saving a lot
of money on fuel.  :)

-tom!

--
Kurt Steinhauser - 03 Oct 2007 20:52 GMT
[...]

> On my car, everything was running for a year before I started trying out
> MMO... On this MMO full tank plus Startron at half tank... I have driven
> 446 miles and I still have over 1/4 tank left... more like 5/16 tank
> left. My tank is 23 gallons total and 3 gallons reserve. My driving is
> strictly local driving. My town is pretty hilly.
[...]

I'll pick up some Starton over the weekend. I can get it locally (within
25 mi radius) just don't often go in that direction.

I have noted, anecdotally, that the idle sounds made my the SDL seem to
be less sharply pitched knocking.

I'm all for being a techical geek, but this is not exactly rocket
science. The results thus far are encouraging, but not definetive by any
means. Running a cleaner fuel system can not do anything but help. And it
surely has added to my motoring enjoyment!

Signature

Cheers, Kurt

DougS - 03 Oct 2007 21:04 GMT
> Guys... it is not just about filter and air filter... we know from our past
> experience that changing these two accounts for some change... but not in
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> 29 MPG when I spend $9 on diesel fuel injection cleaner two separate time
> but then drops back to 25 when tank is finished.

Tiger, what car is this with such a large tank? My 300D only has about
a 14 gallon tank in it.

Concerning fuel filters, when is the best time to change them. The
repair manual recommends once a year, but that seems a little long to
me. Is there a consensus on the interval to change this. I am
referring to the main spin-on fuel filter in the engine compartment,
not the pre-filter at the tank.
Paul Hoffman - 03 Oct 2007 22:05 GMT
Signature

"DougS"  asked

> Tiger, what car is this with such a large tank? My 300D only has about
> a 14 gallon tank in it.

Interesting, as my 1980 300D has an 80 liter or  about 17 Imperial gallons
or about 21 U.S. gallons tank. Mind you this car was ordered in Ontario, but
picked up at the factory in
Germany and driven over there for 2 years before my parents moved back to
Canada with the car.

Paul Hoffman
Burlington ON
phoffman@cogeco.ca or hoffmanp@mcmaster.ca
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which is least known"  Montaigne
Tiger - 03 Oct 2007 23:46 GMT
My car is a 1995 E300D... yes, it got a monster tank. It is practically the
same tank as my old 380SE... about 24 gallon total with reserve.
Kurt Steinhauser - 04 Oct 2007 02:03 GMT
> My car is a 1995 E300D... yes, it got a monster tank. It is practically
> the same tank as my old 380SE... about 24 gallon total with reserve.

And my '87 300SDL has a 25 gallon tank. Gulp.
Signature

Cheers, Kurt

Tiger - 04 Oct 2007 16:01 GMT
There is a WVO kit out there that adds another 20 gallons tank to the car...
for a total of 44 gallons! Unthinkable...
Kurt Steinhauser - 05 Oct 2007 10:33 GMT
> There is a WVO kit out there that adds another 20 gallons tank to the
> car... for a total of 44 gallons! Unthinkable...

I've seen that kit's specs. The down side (to me) is the upfront expense.
SWMBO would have a serious objection.
Signature

Cheers, Kurt

Tom Plunket - 05 Oct 2007 20:45 GMT
> Tiger, what car is this with such a large tank? My 300D only has about
> a 14 gallon tank in it.

I am pretty certain that the 123's tanks are ~18 gallons, both in the
300D and the 300TD.

I'm getting around 20mpg on recycled vegetable oil, but probably going
to put another tank of diesel in soon 'cause I'm using it (the veggie
oil) a bit faster than I can collect it.

-tom!

--
runbiodiesel - 05 Oct 2007 09:44 GMT
> I filled up this morning. Calculated mileage rose to 26.05mpg. I changed
> out the primary and secondary fuel filters about a week ago. This next
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> --
> Cheers, Kurt ('87 300SDL daily driver)

What amount of MMO do you add, or what is the ratio?
Thanks,
Steve (79 240D, 82 300TD)
Kurt Steinhauser - 05 Oct 2007 10:31 GMT
[...]
> What amount of MMO do you add, or what is the ratio? Thanks,

It works out to 4 ounces per 10 gallons of fuel.
Signature

Cheers, Kurt

 
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