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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / October 2007

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Buying a used w124 station. Any advice?

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R. Broekstra - 16 Oct 2007 14:46 GMT
Hello all,

I used to own a '88 230 TE, but I sold it last year because the car had
some serious trouble (broken fuel injection), and lacked some
accessories I wanted on it. However, I miss driving that car now, so I
decided to look for a comparable car which is in better shape. I'm
looking for a car with a gasoline engine, automatic transmission and
cruise control.

I did some research on the net and found out that w124's prior to '93
didn't ship with cruise control. Am I correct there?

I found several E's from '93 to '95 for sale in the Netherlands. Mileage
varies from 200-600kkm, prices from 4-10kEUR. To make a good choice I
have a couple of questions:

- Are some engine models better/more reliable than others? I've seen
220's, 300's and a 320 for sale, should this be a decisive factor?

- What's the expected lifetime of the engine and transmission? Should I
be concerned with mileages over 200-300kkm?

- Do these models have known weaknesses I should absolutely check when
inspecting/test driving them?

- Any other (possibly obvious) things I should take into consideration?

Thanks in advance!
--
Rien Broekstra
JD - 16 Oct 2007 15:46 GMT
I'd get a copy of "The Mercedes Benz E-Class Owner's Bible". It's been
an invaluable part of learning the nuances W124 ownership for me

JD.

> Hello all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance!
R. Broekstra - 16 Oct 2007 21:01 GMT
> I'd get a copy of "The Mercedes Benz E-Class Owner's Bible". It's been
> an invaluable part of learning the nuances W124 ownership for me

Thanks for the tip. Only $26 from amazon, ordered it rightaway :)
The Spanish Inquisition - 16 Oct 2007 19:35 GMT
> I used to own a '88 230 TE, but I sold it last year because the car had
> some serious trouble (broken fuel injection), and lacked some
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I did some research on the net and found out that w124's prior to '93
> didn't ship with cruise control. Am I correct there?

I don't think so. It was an option in Europe (in fact almost anything
was an - expensive - option as I understand it). You can also add an
aftermarket one for ~400 EUR, I think. Not such a bad idea, because old
CC's tend to break eventually.

> I found several E's from '93 to '95 for sale in the Netherlands. Mileage
> varies from 200-600kkm, prices from 4-10kEUR. To make a good choice I
> have a couple of questions:
>
> - Are some engine models better/more reliable than others? I've seen
> 220's, 300's and a 320 for sale, should this be a decisive factor?

As a Dutchman (like me) you can probaly read German. Try this buyer's guide:

http://www.w124-club.de/w124-info/Kaufberatung.pdf

> - What's the expected lifetime of the engine and transmission? Should I
> be concerned with mileages over 200-300kkm?

People say they should easily last 500.000 km, especially the diesels,
but Dutch politicians have something against old diesels, as you may
have noticed.

> - Do these models have known weaknesses I should absolutely check when
> inspecting/test driving them?
>
> - Any other (possibly obvious) things I should take into consideration?

There are some specialized places in Holland that sell very low mileage
MB's, I got mine - a '87 250D with 76kkm - from budgetbenz. Expensive
but genuine. If you want more addresses, let me know...

Ximinez
Signature

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A

R. Broekstra - 16 Oct 2007 21:07 GMT
[snip]
> Try this buyer's guide:
>
> http://www.w124-club.de/w124-info/Kaufberatung.pdf

Ah excellent, exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

> There are some specialized places in Holland that sell very low mileage
> MB's, I got mine - a '87 250D with 76kkm - from budgetbenz. Expensive
> but genuine. If you want more addresses, let me know...

Whoosh, these guys are really, really expensive. Easily 2-3 times the
average prices I've seen around the net. I'm interested in paying a
little more for a good car from a trustworthy source, but > 10 grand for
a 124 is above my budget. If you've got any other places I should check,
please let me know

--
Rien
The Spanish Inquisition - 17 Oct 2007 06:46 GMT
> [snip]
>  > Try this buyer's guide:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> a 124 is above my budget. If you've got any other places I should check,
> please let me know

The ones in my bookmark list are all relatively expensive, especially
for combis. Cars older than 15 years are interesting for business owners
 for tax reasons. That's probably why there are so many of these places
in Holland and why they charge the prices they charge. It's also the
reason I drive my 250D ;)

http://www.nijkamp-klassiekers.nl/index.php
http://www.benzbuzinezz.nl/
http://www.mb-klassiekers.nl/
http://www.wooike.nl/
http://www.autoleitner.nl/html/aanbod.php

Good luck!

Ximinez
Signature

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A

Robert Klemme - 17 Oct 2007 07:09 GMT
> Hello all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> - Any other (possibly obvious) things I should take into consideration?

I've heard W124 turbo diesels have frequent issues with the charger so a
non turbo is probably better.

If it's not too cumbersome (and expensive) to transfer a car from
Germany you can probably also check markets over here which probably
gives you more choice.  www.autoscout24.de or www.mobile.de

Kind regards

    robert
R. Broekstra - 17 Oct 2007 09:56 GMT
[snip]

> If it's not too cumbersome (and expensive) to transfer a car from
> Germany you can probably also check markets over here which probably
> gives you more choice.  www.autoscout24.de or www.mobile.de

I already found some nice models over there. The drawback is that I have
to pay between 1500 and 2500 euro additional taxes when importing a 124
to the netherlands. It might pay off though, as the cars seem to be
cheaper in germany.

Cheers,
--
Rien
Dori A Schmetterling - 17 Oct 2007 19:21 GMT
You have to pay taxes on a used-car import?  Not VAT, surely?

Just a Dutch diesel surcharge?

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---
[...]
> I already found some nice models over there. The drawback is that I have
> to pay between 1500 and 2500 euro additional taxes when importing a 124 to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> --
> Rien
The Spanish Inquisition - 17 Oct 2007 21:26 GMT
> You have to pay taxes on a used-car import?  Not VAT, surely?
>
> Just a Dutch diesel surcharge?

No, it's the old 'luxury tax', BPM that makes cars so expensive here. If
you import old cars you still have to pay a small percentage of that tax
over the original sale value. You also pay VAT over new cars, not old ones.

The BPM tax is 45% on sale over the net price (minus 1500 EUR for a gas
car).

So if you buy a new 20000 EUR gasoline car, I think you'd pay:

20000 + (9000 - 1500) + 3800 = 31300 EUR

(the 3800 is the 19% VAT)

The BPM tax should be slowly phased out in favour of road pricing (if
that ever comes), but VAT is set to rise to 20% soon.

Ximinez
Signature

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A

Dori A Schmetterling - 18 Oct 2007 12:03 GMT
Yes, makes more sense, but I thought there was an extra tax on diesel cars
to make up for the (relatively) low price of the fuel, but I suppose that's
in the annual road tax.

Hah, 20% VAT.  We in GB were once among the highest in western Europe,
starting at 15% and then rising to 17.5%.  Then Germany rose to 16% and to
now 19%...

And our food and children's clothing are not 'VATted', but that doesn't make
our food any cheaper than elsewhere.  I understand that UK supermarket
margins are higher than in, e.g., Germany, for example, and our exchange
rate is probably a bit too high (but I don't care as it's a benefit to
me...)

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---

>> You have to pay taxes on a used-car import?  Not VAT, surely?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Ximinez
Geoff  Miller - 19 Oct 2007 03:17 GMT
> Yes, makes more sense, but I thought there was an extra tax on
> diesel cars to make up for the (relatively) low price of the fuel
> [...]

What a bizarrely European concept.  So much for encouraging efficiency.

I understand that in some European countries, legal fines are adjusted
upward based on income, too.  Weird.  

> Hah, 20% VAT.  We in GB were once among the highest in western Europe,
> starting at 15% and then rising to 17.5%.

Is VAT a substitute for American-style sales tax, or applied in addition
to it?

Geoff

--
"If it rains after a liberal washes his car, they say
it's a right-wing dirty trick." -- Ann Coulter
Dori A Schmetterling - 19 Oct 2007 11:08 GMT
See below.

DAS

For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling
---

>> Yes, makes more sense, but I thought there was an extra tax on
>> diesel cars to make up for the (relatively) low price of the fuel
>> [...]
>
> What a bizarrely European concept.  So much for encouraging efficiency.

DAS:  The concept is that diesel is cheaper (i.e. less heavily taxed) for
public transport and, maybe commercial vehicles -- remember that all buses
have been running on diesel for years.  Since all private car owners would
then rush to diesel to save money, special taxes are applied in other ways.
This does not exist in the UK, for example.

> I understand that in some European countries, legal fines are adjusted
> upward based on income, too.  Weird.

DAS: Not necessarily weird.  Possibly more socially just.  If you want
somebody's wallet to hurt the sum has to have a relationship to income.

>> Hah, 20% VAT.  We in GB were once among the highest in western Europe,
>> starting at 15% and then rising to 17.5%.
>
> Is VAT a substitute for American-style sales tax, or applied in addition
> to it?

DAS:  How quaintly US-centric.  VAT is not a "substitute".  It is a type of
sales tax and is called that (value-added tax) since it taxes extra value as
the goods move down the chain.  As a simple example, a wheel manufacturer
levies the VAT when selling to the car manufacturer, who can reclaim the tax
paid.  However, the car manufacturer then levies VAT when selling to the
final consumer, who cannot reclaim the tax (except under certain business
circumstances).  (Cars are a special case because they are high value and
people would have extra incentives to avoid paying VAT. VAT trreatment of
cars -- and aeroplanes -- is also different to other goods when moving them
across borders. )

The concept is that everything is taxed but at relatively low levels.
Unfortunately in the real world it doesn't work that way.  When VAT was
introduced in the UK 30 years ago, or whenever, replacing another tax
structure, the rates WERE quite low (10, then 12.5%) but there were many
exemptions.  Tax rates were raised and most taxed items in the UK attract
17.5%, though food (fresh, not resturants) and, I think, children's
clothing, public transport, water, etc are exempt.

When I last looked maybe 10 - 15 years ago, only about half of goods and
services were taxed.  IMO it would have been better to extend the scope of
VAT rather than raise it, but I am not in the government...

Now the EU specifies a minimum of 15%, to aim for harmonisation of tax
rates.

> Geoff
>
> --
> "If it rains after a liberal washes his car, they say
> it's a right-wing dirty trick." -- Ann Coulter
Geoff  Miller - 20 Oct 2007 19:27 GMT
: I understand that in some European countries, legal fines are adjusted
: upward based on income, too.  Weird.

> DAS: Not necessarily weird.  Possibly more socially just.  If you want
> somebody's wallet to hurt the sum has to have a relationship to income.

I understand the rationale; I just don't agree with it.  The punishment
for committing a crime should be a function of the seriousness of the
offense, nothing else.  And a crime isn't somehow more serious when it's
committed by a relatively well-off person than it is by a relatively poor
one.  

I'd say it's socially unjust to penalize one person more heavily than
another for committing the same crime, particularly because of circum-
stances that are irrelevant to the commission of the offense.  And on
a more practical (if decidedly un-PC) level, perhaps it's fitting that
monetary penalties fall harder on the less well-off.  Since most crim-
inals are from the lower socioeconomic classes, it makes sense to have
a stronger deterrent where they're concerned.

Life isn't fair.  Some people are wealthier than others.  Some people are
smarter, more attractive, or more talented than others.  A fundamental
difference between our societies is that to an American, being able to
more easily absorb the expenses of living, whatever they may be, is an
incentive to better oneself.  To a European, it's an excuse to dispro-
portionately penalize the well-off.  That's the result of centuries of
class resentment, which our own history largely lacks.  

America is known as the land of opportunity, and Americans are known
for our optimism.  That's why rather than thinking of the weathy as a
class of oppressors who got where they are on the backs of the prole-
tariat, we admire them and aspire to join them.

: Is VAT a substitute for American-style sales tax, or applied in addition
: to it?

> DAS:  How quaintly US-centric.  

Looking at the rest of the world through the lens of one's own society is
hardly unique to Americans.

[...]

> Now the EU specifies a minimum of 15%, to aim for harmonisation of tax
> rates.

Ouch!  Sales tax is set at the state level in America, with counties and
cities often adding their own (proportionately low) sales taxes.  The
current sales tax where I live (the Silicon Valley area of California)
is, IIRC, 8.5%.

Thanks for the explanation.

Geoff

--
"If it rains after a liberal washes his car, they say
it's a right-wing dirty trick." -- Ann Coulter
Richard Cole - 20 Oct 2007 19:52 GMT
>: I understand that in some European countries, legal fines are adjusted
>: upward based on income, too.  Weird.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>class of oppressors who got where they are on the backs of the prole-
>tariat, we admire them and aspire to join them.

Geoff

The theory is that the fine impacts the guilty equally, regardless of
available income, so if your disposable income each month (after tax,
mortgage and other fixed deductions) is $1000, then fine of $500 (in the UK
a £250 fine for speeding is not uncommon and the maximum for speeding is
£1,000 - See http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/crimertogeneral.htm) then this
will impact you quite seriously, while if your disposable income is
$10,0000 then $500 will have no impact at all and you will speed in the
same place again, whereas a fine of 50% of your disposable income ($5,000)
may cause you to consider more carefully before speeding.

Add to that the very likely possibility of losing your driving licence for
a number of years on multiple driving offences and thereby perhaps forcing
you to lose your job or paying a lot for transport to and from work.
For example, it's quite possible for me to lose my licence for 3 years in a
single day, just driving the 9 miles into work, as there are 3 fixed speed
cameras and each camera could be worth up to 6 penalty points on my licence
and I will lose my licence once I have accumulated 12 points within a 3
year period so one tends to be careful.

Richard
Web pages: http://www.caravanningnow.co.uk/ for caravanning,
http://www.rcole.org/ for my personal web site and
http://www.homeindorset.co.uk because I love the email address.
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The Spanish Inquisition - 19 Oct 2007 12:09 GMT
Geoff Miller wrote:

>> Yes, makes more sense, but I thought there was an extra tax on
>> diesel cars to make up for the (relatively) low price of the fuel
>> [...]
>
> What a bizarrely European concept.  So much for encouraging efficiency.

The higer (fixed) road tax in combination with the lower fuel tax on
diesel actually made diesel more attractive for people who drive a lot.
I believe the percentage of diesel cars in Holland is a lot higher than
that in the US. Diesel came under fire because of reports about toxic
particle emissions, so some changes are likely there.

> I understand that in some European countries, legal fines are adjusted
> upward based on income, too.  Weird.  

Not here, thankfully. We do have a few rental houses that are priced
according to income, that idea popped up recently. And, on top of that,
rent subsidies for low-income people.

>> Hah, 20% VAT.  We in GB were once among the highest in western Europe,
>> starting at 15% and then rising to 17.5%.
>
> Is VAT a substitute for American-style sales tax, or applied in addition
> to it?

Substitute, we don't have a sales tax.

Ximinez
Signature

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A

R. Broekstra - 19 Oct 2007 15:34 GMT
Hey guys,

Ohwell, no problem for me with the extra luxury tax when importing a
w124 anymore. I found a nice 1993 E280T yesterday. I hope it will serve
me well :)

Cheers,
--
Rien
 
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