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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / February 2008

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Cold weather diesel starting

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Gogarty - 12 Feb 2008 13:13 GMT
Yes, I know, this topic has been done to death. But still...

What is the lowest temperature one can reasonably expect a 617 engine to
start given new glow plugs and an average battery?

Dropped to 10 F. here yesterday. It would not start. Called road
service. Guy showed up with a dinky booster battery pack, no jumper
cables. Well, of course it would not start. It would barely turn over at
all with that booster battery. Later in the day when it was slightly
warmer, we called road service again and this time he showed up with
jumper cables. Took about thirty seconds to start.

Seems to me cold weather is a double whammy for a diesel. Even if the
battery is in good shape at low temperatures it just does not have the
capacity it does when warmer. So cranking runs it down  really fast. If
you cycle the glow plugs several times you are depleting the battery so
the heat from the plugs is canceled by inability to fast turn over,
which is essential. A slow cranking engine just will not start, unlike a
gasoline engine where a spark just might get it going even if it is
cranking slowly.

So, below what temperature is starting a diesel in otherwise good shape
problematical?
Tiger - 12 Feb 2008 16:08 GMT
I would say it is your battery that is weak to begin with. I have started my
diesel 609 in teens without any problem or any heater hooked up. I never
used my engine heater.

If you have an engine heater, I suggest you use it... takes about an hour or
so if it is outside.

That dinky booster battery pack is powerful... I have one myself and that
started my diesel when my battery is dead. Yes, I changed my battery
afterward.
trader4@optonline.net - 12 Feb 2008 20:01 GMT
> I would say it is your battery that is weak to begin with. I have started my
> diesel 609 in teens without any problem or any heater hooked up. I never
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> started my diesel when my battery is dead. Yes, I changed my battery
> afterward.

If I expected to be starting at those temps, I'd definitely want a
relatively new battery, not an average one.  Also, when were the
valves last adjusted?   The colder the temps, the more critical
everything becomes.  MB recommends a different valve clearance for use
in areas where very cold starts will occur.    If you have so-so
battery, valves off, old injectors that are less than optimal, aged
engine with less compression, etc, it all adds up to make it harder to
start.

I've started mine quite easily in the high single digits, but that was
years ago when the engine had a lot less miles. on it.  More recently,
I've occasionally started it at times in the teens.   When starting at
low temps, I apply partial throttle, which helps.
Gogarty - 12 Feb 2008 22:54 GMT
In article
<2e9b3143-dc5e-4e1a-a7d8-3ba945a3825f@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
trader4@optonline.net says...

>> I would say it is your battery that is weak to begin with. I have started my
>> diesel 609 in teens without any problem or any heater hooked up. I never
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>I've occasionally started it at times in the teens.   When starting at
>low temps, I apply partial throttle, which helps.

We have had a very mild winter here. The 10 degrees yesterday is the first in
two years. I used to actually take the battery out of the car and bring it
home to keep it at room temperature. That always worked. But this time
everything just got cold togther after a day running aroud in the rain with
lights, wipers and heater on. Valves were adjusted in November. As the jump
start from a battery in a car with the engine running showed, the battery just
wasn't up to it.

How many time do you key the glow plugs in very cold weather?
Tiger - 13 Feb 2008 04:56 GMT
Only one time for my car... 95.
trader4@optonline.net - 13 Feb 2008 13:09 GMT
> Only one time for my car... 95.

This is something I've always wondered about too.   Many here
recommend cycling the glow plugs several times before trying to start
the car in cold weather.   I've rarely done that and can't say I
noticed any difference.   And if you think about it, I'm not sure it
will do any good.   All the glow plugs are really designed to do is
get the very tip hot to serve as an ignition source.  The indicator
light is designed to go out about the time that has occured.  After
that, they stay on for probably another 2 mins or so anyway.    So,
I'm not sure what cycling them several times is going to accomplish.
Certainly they can't raise the temp of the cylinder head much at all.
And any air that is heated is quickly expelled and refilled during
cranking.
DougS - 13 Feb 2008 14:32 GMT
On Feb 13, 8:09 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

> > Only one time for my car... 95.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> And any air that is heated is quickly expelled and refilled during
> cranking.

Only one for my car as well. 84 with over 268k miles on it.

Although the glow plugs aren't an ignition source. They are a pre-
heater. They heat the pre-chamber (a smaller cavity above the
cylinder), which is where the fuel is injected into, and they heat it
very well. They don't have to heat the whole block or head, just this
pre-chamber.

As far as cycling them goes. I don't think it helps to do this. As you
said, they stay on for a couple of minutes anyway. I have noticed that
the light stays on longer when the ambient temperature is lower, and
it stays on a very short period of time when the engine is warm, or
outside air is warm. I have found on my car, that in below freezing
temps, I need to wait a few more seconds after the light goes off, or
just give a slight throttle when it starts. Otherwise, it starts first
time every time.
Gogarty - 13 Feb 2008 14:55 GMT
The glow pluigs are ambient temperature dependent. The light stays on
much longer in cold weather than in warm. How much of a draw on the
battery are they? If yu key them several times are you paradoxically
ensuring that the car will not start because you have depleted the
battery?
trader4@optonline.net - 13 Feb 2008 17:17 GMT
> The glow pluigs are ambient temperature dependent. The light stays on
> much longer in cold weather than in warm. How much of a draw on the
> battery are they? If yu key them several times are you paradoxically
> ensuring that the car will not start because you have depleted the
> battery?

Well, it certainly takes more juice out of the battery.  Which is
another reason I don't think it makes sense to do extra cycling.  The
glow plugs draw a whopping current, think it's like 80 amp range.
trader4@optonline.net - 13 Feb 2008 17:15 GMT
> On Feb 13, 8:09 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> very well. They don't have to heat the whole block or head, just this
> pre-chamber.

What makes you think they even heat the pre-chamber?   My
understanding is they serve as a point ignition source.   The very tip
gets to around 1000 deg and that is what ignites the fuel/air
mixture.   I find it hard to believe the very tip of a glow plug tip
is going to heat anything substantial that is made of metal, whether
it be the pre-chamber or the cylinder head in 15 secs or so.

> As far as cycling them goes. I don't think it helps to do this. As you
> said, they stay on for a couple of minutes anyway. I have noticed that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
tweaks - 21 Feb 2008 03:28 GMT
single digit starting, never a problem.  I get in, turn on the key, close
the door, put on my seat belt, then turn it on.  Occasionally, I'll have
to cycle twice, but that's it.

--
Message posted using http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.auto.mercedes/
More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html
moon161@gmail.com - 13 Feb 2008 17:32 GMT
I've got a 240D, OM617, I think. If the engine soaks to 5-7F, that's
it for me, even on a fresh charge. It's started fine after windy nites
in the teens, maybe have to crank it twice, or keep a foot on the
pedal for a minute in the teens. I'm not sure what my fuel is like at
that temp either, but I've got cetane boost /anti cloud additive in
the tank.  I should probably cut w/ K1, that was our second cold snap
like that.

In absence of a block or coolant heater, you might try leaving a hair
dryer turned on in the engine compartment for a couple few hours.

Andy

> Yes, I know, this topic has been done to death. But still...
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> So, below what temperature is starting a diesel in otherwise good shape
> problematical?
Roger - 13 Feb 2008 18:12 GMT
I've got a 240D, OM617, I think. If the engine soaks to 5-7F, that's
it for me, even on a fresh charge. It's started fine after windy nites
in the teens, maybe have to crank it twice, or keep a foot on the
pedal for a minute in the teens. I'm not sure what my fuel is like at
that temp either, but I've got cetane boost /anti cloud additive in
the tank.  I should probably cut w/ K1, that was our second cold snap
like that.

In absence of a block or coolant heater, you might try leaving a hair
dryer turned on in the engine compartment for a couple few hours.

Andy

When I was a kid (1950s/60s) my father had a small keronsene lamp type of
arrangement, except the glass was replaced by copper mesh. He would put this
under his car at night and hey presto it would start evry morning, Sounds
like there's a market again!!
heav - 14 Feb 2008 14:11 GMT
I have a 1982 300 TDT with a 617 Turbo Diesel.  I had the engine
remanufactured at Metric Motors in the San Fernando valley last summer
and I have about 6,000 miles on the new engine.  It runs great.
Starts instantly like a gas engine in a Toyota when it is warmed up,
and starts pretty darn fast even when it's cold.  I live in the
Eastern Sierra, and our coldest temperatures in winter here at 4,000
feet don't usually go below 15 F or -10 C, but I have seen 0 F or -17
C.  The new engine will start at on our coldest morning without a
block heater, I think, but when I had the engine remanufactured I
mentioned to Mike at Metric where I live and that I would like to get
a block heater installed.  He said he would just install one as part
of the deal and did not charge me for it.  It is installed in place of
one of the freeze plugs on the right side of the engine just above and
in front of the starter motor.  It is the type which has a pump in it
to circulate the coolant through the engine as well as heat it.  If I
know I am going to use the car in the morning I plug the heater in the
night before.

I would highly recommend getting a block heater of that type installed
if you frequently start your engine in cold temperatures.  The engine
starts as quickly and runs as smoothly right away as when it is 70 F
or 20 C outside, which puts a lot less strain and wear on the engine.
When you start your engine cold it takes longer for the oil to start
lubricating everything and this causes a lot of wear on the engine.  A
friend of mine and his family own large commerical fishing vessels,
and he tells me that they have block heaters on those engines that run
all the time so if they need to start the auxiliary engine it is
already warmed up and they do that because of concern over lubricants
being cold at start not lubricating the very expensive large marine
engines properly.

I try never to start my new engine without it being warmed up now.
With the block heater plugged in I think this engine would start even
if the outside temperature was -30 F or -34 C if you could get the
fuel to flow.

I installed the new type glow plug relay from Bosch that comes back on
when the engine starts and keeps the glow plugs on for the first 3
minutes of engine operation. This also helps the engine run smoothly
from the start, which also lessens wear.
Gogarty - 14 Feb 2008 16:06 GMT
Block heaters are a great idea. However, we park the car on a Manhattan
street and there is no place to plug one in. I have seen provision for
block heaters at parking meters in Fairbanks. You park the car, plug it
in and feed the meter. I don't expect to see anything like that anytime
soon in New York.
jdoe - 14 Feb 2008 18:04 GMT
>Block heaters are a great idea. However, we park the car on a Manhattan
>street and there is no place to plug one in. I have seen provision for
>block heaters at parking meters in Fairbanks. You park the car, plug it
>in and feed the meter. I don't expect to see anything like that anytime
>soon in New York.
there is little reason to ever need a block heater in NYC, you can
count on your hand the days it's gone below 10 degrees in the last few
years there. In all my years of driving a diesel the only time I
needed the block heater was when I was in Lake Placid NY and some of
my glow plugs were out
__________________________________________
Never argue with an idiot.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
-->> T.G. Lambach <<-- - 16 Feb 2008 18:57 GMT
Lots of ideas. Here are a couple more...

Lead acid batteries lose capacity as the temperature falls and motors
become harder to turn as their oil thickens.

Battery: the size for a diesel is a Group 49 - this is a big, heavy
battery, about 12" long. Be sure yours is this size.

If the existing battery is the correct size, you might consider buying
some kind of smaller 12V Battery that you can (more) easily keep in the
apartment and carry to the car to use as a booster (+ to +, - to -) for
such cold start occasions.

Engine oil: The engine's oil ought to be diesel grade (CH-4 or CI-4 or
CI 4 Plus) SAE 10 - 40. Single weight oil like SAE 30 or SAE 40 will be
like tar at such low temperatures and really the cranking speed.

The 1980 300SD Owner's Manual instructs us on cold starting:

At ambient temp below 32 degrees F and with engine cold, completely
depress accelerator while starting. Actuate starter until engine fires
regularly and engine speed rises. Then ease off the accelerator slowly.
Cranking times of up to one minute will not harm the starter.

At ambient temps  below -4 degrees F, depress the accelerator three
times prior to starting.

Check the oil pressure immediately after starting a cold engine and
don't speed up the engine until pressure is shown on the gauge.

And if all this fails just park it over a steam grate!
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